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Fuser
21st September 2008, 05:56
In his "Afterword to the Second German Edition" of Das Kapital, written in 1873, Karl Marx states:


After a quotation from the preface to my “Criticism of Political Economy,” Berlin, 1859, pp. IV-VII, where I discuss the materialistic basis of my method, the writer goes on:



The one thing which is of moment to Marx, is to find the law of the phenomena with whose investigation he is concerned; and not only is that law of moment to him, which governs these phenomena, in so far as they have a definite form and mutual connexion within a given historical period. Of still greater moment to him is the law of their variation, of their development, i.e., of their transition from one form into another, from one series of connexions into a different one. This law once discovered, he investigates in detail the effects in which it manifests itself in social life. Consequently, Marx only troubles himself about one thing: to show, by rigid scientific investigation, the necessity of successive determinate orders of social conditions, and to establish, as impartially as possible, the facts that serve him for fundamental starting-points. For this it is quite enough, if he proves, at the same time, both the necessity of the present order of things, and the necessity of another order into which the first must inevitably pass over; and this all the same, whether men believe or do not believe it, whether they are conscious or unconscious of it. Marx treats the social movement as a process of natural history, governed by laws not only independent of human will, consciousness and intelligence, but rather, on the contrary, determining that will, consciousness and intelligence .... If in the history of civilisation the conscious element plays a part so subordinate, then it is self-evident that a critical inquiry whose subject-matter is civilisation, can, less than anything else, have for its basis any form of, or any result of, consciousness. That is to say, that not the idea, but the material phenomenon alone can serve as its starting-point. Such an inquiry will confine itself to the confrontation and the comparison of a fact, not with ideas, but with another fact. For this inquiry, the one thing of moment is, that both facts be investigated as accurately as possible, and that they actually form, each with respect to the other, different momenta of an evolution; but most important of all is the rigid analysis of the series of successions, of the sequences and concatenations in which the different stages of such an evolution present themselves. But it will be said, the general laws of economic life are one and the same, no matter whether they are applied to the present or the past. This Marx directly denies. According to him, such abstract laws do not exist. On the contrary, in his opinion every historical period has laws of its own .... As soon as society has outlived a given period of development, and is passing over from one given stage to another, it begins to be subject also to other laws. In a word, economic life offers us a phenomenon analogous to the history of evolution in other branches of biology. The old economists misunderstood the nature of economic laws when they likened them to the laws of physics and chemistry. A more thorough analysis of phenomena shows that social organisms differ among themselves as fundamentally as plants or animals. Nay, one and the same phenomenon falls under quite different laws in consequence of the different structure of those organisms as a whole, of the variations of their individual organs, of the different conditions in which those organs function, &c. Marx, e.g., denies that the law of population is the same at all times and in all places. He asserts, on the contrary, that every stage of development has its own law of population .... With the varying degree of development of productive power, social conditions and the laws governing them vary too. Whilst Marx sets himself the task of following and explaining from this point of view the economic system established by the sway of capital, he is only formulating, in a strictly scientific manner, the aim that every accurate investigation into economic life must have. The scientific value of such an inquiry lies in the disclosing of the special laws that regulate the origin, existence, development, death of a given social organism and its replacement by another and higher one. And it is this value that, in point of fact, Marx’s book has.


Whilst the writer pictures what he takes to be actually my method, in this striking and [as far as concerns my own application of it] generous way, what else is he picturing but the dialectic method?

Of course the method of presentation must differ in form from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the material in detail, to analyse its different forms of development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only after this work is done, can the actual movement be adequately described. If this is done successfully, if the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a mere a priori construction.



My dialectic method is not only different from the Hegelian, but is its direct opposite. To Hegel, the life-process of the human brain, i.e., the process of thinking, which, under the name of “the Idea,” he even transforms into an independent subject, is the demiurgos of the real world, and the real world is only the external, phenomenal form of “the Idea.” With me, on the contrary, the ideal is nothing else than the material world reflected by the human mind, and translated into forms of thought.


The mystifying side of Hegelian dialectic I criticised nearly thirty years ago, at a time when it was still the fashion. But just as I was working at the first volume of “Das Kapital,” it was the good pleasure of the peevish, arrogant, mediocre Epigonoi [Epigones – Büchner, Dühring and others] who now talk large in cultured Germany, to treat Hegel in same way as the brave Moses Mendelssohn in Lessing’s time treated Spinoza, i.e., as a “dead dog.” I therefore openly avowed myself the pupil of that mighty thinker, and even here and there, in the chapter on the theory of value, coquetted with the modes of expression peculiar to him. The mystification which dialectic suffers in Hegel’s hands, by no means prevents him from being the first to present its general form of working in a comprehensive and conscious manner. With him it is standing on its head. It must be turned right side up again, if you would discover the rational kernel within the mystical shell.
While discussing his method here, Marx tells us that his dialectic method is not the same as the dialectic of Hegel. In fact, according to Marx, his method is the opposite of Hegelian dialectic. He casts aside Hegel's mystic shell and takes only its rational kernel.

However, his method pictured in a striking and generous way by a critic becomes this:


The one thing which is of moment to Marx, is to find the law of the phenomena with whose investigation he is concerned; and not only is that law of moment to him, which governs these phenomena, in so far as they have a definite form and mutual connexion within a given historical period. Of still greater moment to him is the law of their variation, of their development, i.e., of their transition from one form into another, from one series of connexions into a different one. This law once discovered, he investigates in detail the effects in which it manifests itself in social life. Consequently, Marx only troubles himself about one thing: to show, by rigid scientific investigation, the necessity of successive determinate orders of social conditions, and to establish, as impartially as possible, the facts that serve him for fundamental starting-points. For this it is quite enough, if he proves, at the same time, both the necessity of the present order of things, and the necessity of another order into which the first must inevitably pass over; and this all the same, whether men believe or do not believe it, whether they are conscious or unconscious of it. Marx treats the social movement as a process of natural history, governed by laws not only independent of human will, consciousness and intelligence, but rather, on the contrary, determining that will, consciousness and intelligence .... If in the history of civilisation the conscious element plays a part so subordinate, then it is self-evident that a critical inquiry whose subject-matter is civilisation, can, less than anything else, have for its basis any form of, or any result of, consciousness. That is to say, that not the idea, but the material phenomenon alone can serve as its starting-point. Such an inquiry will confine itself to the confrontation and the comparison of a fact, not with ideas, but with another fact. For this inquiry, the one thing of moment is, that both facts be investigated as accurately as possible, and that they actually form, each with respect to the other, different momenta of an evolution; but most important of all is the rigid analysis of the series of successions, of the sequences and concatenations in which the different stages of such an evolution present themselves. But it will be said, the general laws of economic life are one and the same, no matter whether they are applied to the present or the past. This Marx directly denies. According to him, such abstract laws do not exist. On the contrary, in his opinion every historical period has laws of its own .... As soon as society has outlived a given period of development, and is passing over from one given stage to another, it begins to be subject also to other laws. In a word, economic life offers us a phenomenon analogous to the history of evolution in other branches of biology. The old economists misunderstood the nature of economic laws when they likened them to the laws of physics and chemistry. A more thorough analysis of phenomena shows that social organisms differ among themselves as fundamentally as plants or animals. Nay, one and the same phenomenon falls under quite different laws in consequence of the different structure of those organisms as a whole, of the variations of their individual organs, of the different conditions in which those organs function, &c. Marx, e.g., denies that the law of population is the same at all times and in all places. He asserts, on the contrary, that every stage of development has its own law of population .... With the varying degree of development of productive power, social conditions and the laws governing them vary too. Whilst Marx sets himself the task of following and explaining from this point of view the economic system established by the sway of capital, he is only formulating, in a strictly scientific manner, the aim that every accurate investigation into economic life must have. The scientific value of such an inquiry lies in the disclosing of the special laws that regulate the origin, existence, development, death of a given social organism and its replacement by another and higher one. And it is this value that, in point of fact, Marx’s book has.


Is this really the method of Marx? Are these the main features of dialectic formulated by Hegel minus the idealist and mystic side? What makes this method of Marx dialectical? Why he calls it dialectic method?

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st September 2008, 08:27
Fuser, we have debated this here several times. I contend that this impies Marx's method owes nothing to Hegel. Others say differently.

Here are some of the latest attempts to debate this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/scrapping-dialectics-would-t79634/index4.html

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1158574&postcount=73

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1158816&postcount=75

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1161443&postcount=114

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1163222&postcount=124

Fuser
21st September 2008, 16:46
Whoa! :ohmy:

It appears to me that the dispute is based on two questions:

(1) Why Marx calls it "dialectic method" which is derived from Hegel who formulated it for the first time in a generalized form, albeit in a mystic and idealist manner?

(2) If it is derived from Hegelian dialectic then why don't we find any trace of his ideas like the transformation of quantity into quality, unity and struggle of opposites, negation of the negation, etc.?

Now, in my view, those who think that Marx's method is a dialectical one rephrased in this manner by his critic need to demonstrate how Hegelian notions are applicable to it and how it is derived from them. Also, why is it necessary for us to study Hegel's logic and use his terms to study Marx when it can be rephrased and thereby understood in a better way? And those on the other side are required to explain what Marx meant by "dialectic method". In what sense did he use the term "dialectic"?

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st September 2008, 18:48
I agree, but when you put this to dialecticians, they simply ignore you.

Die Neue Zeit
21st September 2008, 19:00
Fuser, since you're not a dialectician, you may wish to consider this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/new-materialism-dynamic-t80627/index.html

Lord Hargreaves
21st September 2008, 19:32
I think most would agree that Marx's own words cannot be considered authoritative on the issue. In fact, I would say there simply is no one correct answer to the question of Marx's method.

The only thing we can do is read Marx and see which features suggest themselves to us personally. I do think one can gain quite a bit from reading Marx (especially the early Marx) through the lense of those he criticised in the tradition of German Critical Philosophy - Kant, Hegel etc. - but this is not to say that other traditions cannot be as usual.

As for the "inverting" Hegel idea that Marx uses, my suggestion would be to ignore it. Whatever Marx did with the dialectic - develop it, revolutionise it, drop it entirely - he did not simply "invert" it

Fuser
21st September 2008, 19:54
I agree, but when you put this to dialecticians, they simply ignore you.

In that case, they are being utterly stupid by stretching the debate in a nonsensical fashion.


Fuser, since you're not a dialectician, you may wish to consider this:

Your "dynamite" looks intriguing, Jacob Ritcher. However, let me go through the entire thread before I comment on it any further.

trivas7
21st September 2008, 20:39
Is this really the method of Marx? Are these the main features of dialectic formulated by Hegel minus the idealist and mystic side? What makes this method of Marx dialectical? Why he calls it dialectic method?
I suggest you go through Capital on your own and come to your own conclusions as to what Marx is up to. I can share mine, but what is valuable is your own engagement with Marx.

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st September 2008, 21:10
Trivas:


I suggest you go through Capital on your own and come to your own conclusions as to what Marx is up to. I can share mine, but what is valuable is your own engagement with Marx.

In that case, he is well advised to ignore tradition, and read what Marx actually says (unlike you).

Die Neue Zeit
21st September 2008, 21:32
Your "dynamite" looks intriguing, Jacob Richter. However, let me go through the entire thread before I comment on it any further.

No worries - I posted a recent comment applying the materialist conception of dynamics to one of Rosa's posts.

trivas7
21st September 2008, 21:47
Trivas:
In that case, he is well advised to ignore tradition, and read what Marx actually says (unlike you).
Others would be advised to come some kind of an understanding of what Marx actually said, not just mindlessly quote him.

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st September 2008, 22:59
Trivas:


Others would be advised to come some kind of an understanding of what Marx actually said, not just mindlessly quote him.

Yes, we all know that you have a 'supernatural' way of 'divining' the real meaning of Das Kapital, and do not need to bother with what Marx actually said.

Us mortals, on the other hand, foolishly rely on what Marx wrote.

Will we never learn!:rolleyes:

trivas7
21st September 2008, 23:06
Us mortals, on the other hand, foolishly rely on what Marx wrote.

Rely on him for what, pray tell? It's you who makes a revelation out of his writings given that you can't say what he means.

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st September 2008, 23:17
Trivas:


Rely on him for what, pray tell?

For something you seem to think is not at all important: his analysis of capitalism.


It's you who makes a revelation out of his writings given that you can't say what he means.

Where have I said that?

ArdentCommunist
23rd September 2008, 05:40
No offense intended, but apparently dialecticians, in their attempt to present their interpretation in a rational and logical manner, somehow (accidentally?) manage to give Marx's work an Anti-religious Religious touch. And the way they take a stand on it further proves this point.

Random Precision
23rd September 2008, 06:09
It seems at first quite bizarre that Rosa is so insistent on the idea that Marx completely abandoned Hegel in light of massive evidence to the contrary- but I suppose it is consistent, because if she can convince people that Marx did abandon the dialectic, her own objections to it are granted the halo of "orthodox" Marxism.

I would advise anyone who is interested in this matter to take a read of the Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy. I'll content myself with just one quote from it here:


The result that we arrive at is not that production, distribution, exchange and consumption are identical, but that they are all members of one totality, different aspects of a unit... Thus a definite form of production determines definite forms of consumption, distribution and exchange as well as definite relations between these different elements... A mutual interaction takes place between these various elements. This is the case with every organic body.

And that's all I've got to say about that. :)

(It goes without saying that Rosa will find some spurious objection to this quote, or any other that I or anyone else could find. I am not really interested, because I think others can judge these things for themselves.)

Rosa Lichtenstein
23rd September 2008, 06:37
RP:


It seems at first quite bizarre that Rosa is so insistent on the idea that Marx completely abandoned Hegel in light of massive evidence to the contrary- but I suppose it is consistent, because if she can convince people that Marx did abandon the dialectic, her own objections to it are granted the halo of "orthodox" Marxism.

I have yet to see the 'massive evidence' to which you refer.


I would advise anyone who is interested in this matter to take a read of the Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy. I'll content myself with just one quote from it here:

Sure, but this was before he wrote Das Kapital, in which book he finally waved goodbye to that incompetent bumbler.

And as for this:


The result that we arrive at is not that production, distribution, exchange and consumption are identical, but that they are all members of one totality, different aspects of a unit... Thus a definite form of production determines definite forms of consumption, distribution and exchange as well as definite relations between these different elements... A mutual interaction takes place between these various elements. This is the case with every organic body.

Marx got these ideas from Aristotle, the Scottish Historical Materialists and Kant (all of whom also influenced Hegel -- which ideas Hegel promptly proceeded to mystify).

Remember, I do not deny that Hegel had a limited influence on his earlier ideas -- I merely claim that he had none at all on his mature work (i.e., Das Kapital).


(It goes without saying that Rosa will find some spurious objection to this quote, or any other that I or anyone else could find. I am not really interested, because I think others can judge these things for themselves.)

Well, you only say this because you have mistaken what I actually say for a figment of your own imagination.

Lord Hargreaves
23rd September 2008, 19:34
No offense intended, but apparently dialecticians, in their attempt to present their interpretation in a rational and logical manner, somehow (accidentally?) manage to give Marx's work an Anti-religious Religious touch. And the way they take a stand on it further proves this point.

what is "an anti-religious religious touch"?