Books Not Bombs - Education vs. War

[RedCeltic]

http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/tomahawk.JPG

Tomahawk cruse missile: $1,400,000

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/library/images/lib_images/books.gif

A quality education for one child in New York State $10 - $15,000/year

Money For Books Not Bombs

In New York State, Gov. Pataki wants to cut $1.2 billion from public schools and raise SUNY and CUNY tuition 40% while the federal government spends over $400 billion to the military this year.

[Smoking Frog II]

yeah! ed-u-ca-tion!

[lukecrouch]

Government's task is not to provide for education. That responsibility should be left to parents or legal guardians of children.

Government's task IS to provide for defense.

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessing of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Note PROVIDE for common defense and PROMOTE general welfare. Different words...different meanings.

Although I'm aware socialists would just as soon wipe their backsides with the Constitution and flush it away, you brought up the issue in the context of the American federal government and I have addressed it as such.

[Smoking Frog II]

Oh yeah, so how come when governments are elected they dribble omn about education.

What about pollution? what about economy?

War isn't the only factor. Without equipping the young for their career, we have no future.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 9:08 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/tomahawk.JPG

Tomahawk cruse missile: $1,400,000

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/library/images/lib_images/books.gif



A quality education for one child in New York State $10 - $15,000/year

Money For Books Not Bombs

Sorry nope. Due to the capitalist efficiency, they are less than $600,000 a pop now. And you can redirect it in flight. You can have it fly in circles around an area taking live video on the internet, until a suitable target just happens to pop up!

In New York State, Gov. Pataki wants to cut $1.2 billion from public schools and raise SUNY and CUNY tuition 40% while the federal government spends over $400 billion to the military this year.





(Edited by kelvin90701 at 9:45 pm on Mar. 28, 2003)

[RedCeltic]

The US Govt. STILL spends more on bombs than education.

[Smoking Frog II]

which is good considering they are a peaceful nation.

We are a peaceful nation - George Bush.

[Zombie]

Quote: from lukecrouch on 4:39 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
Government's task is not to provide for education. That responsibility should be left to parents or legal guardians of children.

Government's task IS to provide for defense.

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessing of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Note PROVIDE for common defense and PROMOTE general welfare. Different words...different meanings.

Although I'm aware socialists would just as soon wipe their backsides with the Constitution and flush it away, you brought up the issue in the context of the American federal government and I have addressed it as such.


pro*mote : To contribute to the progress or growth of.

i don't see how cutting back on education funding while raising the bar for military spending is doing any good for the generations to come.
you must be a bloody fool to think that a government's only role is military defense. As far as i'm concerned, you can all shove that blessing of liberty, which you ridiculously seem to quote, up your arse!

By all means, THINK before saying something as crude as Government's task is not to provide for education. That responsibility should be left to parents or legal guardians of children

Zombie

[lukecrouch]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 3:43 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
Oh yeah, so how come when governments are elected they dribble omn about education.

What about pollution? what about economy?

War isn't the only factor. Without equipping the young for their career, we have no future.


Very good point. Why do governments dribble on about education? Well, from my observations, I would have to say that citizens all want to be relieved of as much responsibility as they can.

So, naturally, we try to get the kids out of the house and out of our hair. Hand them over to the government...and the social issues you see today are the result of parents not taking responsibility to educate and train their children.

Do you think the government can better instruct your kids than you can? If not, wouldn't you like to have a choice in how your children are educated and by whom?

Pollution and the economy go hand in hand. Environment is a resource. If the environment becomes ravaged, economy will react to preserve the resource.

It might not make everyone "feel" good to hear it, but just because something exists, doesn't mean it is beneficial for it to exist indefinetly.

Society and the economy will preserve the environment on their own, without the government. Society is nearing the limits of what it will take as far as the destruction of the environment for productive purposes.

The result is that companies are researching alternative sources of energy and safer means of farming, etc. The reason this research seems stagnant now is that it has been artifically induced by the government. If economy and society were allowed to freely operate, these advances would come immediately at the time of necessity.

And on your last point, I think preserving the future of our young is a necessary pre-requisite to equipping them for it.

[Smoking Frog II]

A good Reply Mr LC. Unfortunately, i'm too tired to post something decent back. I'll just go and have some sugar to keep me awake.

[RedCeltic]

Well gee, I study anthropology, my father worked in the telephone company for 35 years. My mom was a home health aid. How is he going to teach me anthropology? HMMM....

And... being 32 years old, I find it insulting that you think that it's my parants responsibility to pay for my tuition. I struggle to pay tuition myself, however know many people who come from poor families that will have their EOP dropped so far that they will no longer be able to go to school.

But hey, at least you will have your tanks, your guns, and you petty wars.

[lukecrouch]

pro*mote : To contribute to the progress or growth of.

i don't see how cutting back on education funding while raising the bar for military spending is doing any good for the generations to come.
you must be a bloody fool to think that a government's only role is military defense. As far as i'm concerned, you can all shove that blessing of liberty, which you ridiculously seem to quote, up your arse!

By all means, THINK before saying something as crude as Government's task is not to provide for education. That responsibility should be left to parents or legal guardians of children

Zombie


As I already stated, Zombie...the issue was brought up in the context of American government, and I addressed it in the same manner.

Oh, I'm not suggesting we cut BACK on education funding....I'm suggesting we ELIMINATE it. Is it not obvious that private institutions are academically superior to public ones?

But if we eliminate public institutions, forcing private institutions to take their place...there is now fair competition in education. When the institutions have competition, they strive to be better quality for lower price than their competitors...THAT is better for the generations to come.

The other notes in your post were not really issues or arguments, and they were barely coherent phrases. But points go to you for the first frustrated outburst with nothing to back it up.

[Smoking Frog II]

You see what I mean, with that slightly poor post, you will be unsuspecting until he talks about something really decent.

I don't think public education should have any government cuts. it should have more: that's the case in Britain. I could expand, but i'm too tired. It's 10.15 pm!

[lukecrouch]

"Well gee, I study anthropology, my father worked in the telephone company for 35 years. My mom was a home health aid. How is he going to teach me anthropology? HMMM...."

Notice that the RESPONSIBILITY for your education is your parents and/or guardians. Not the eduction itself. Your parents and/or guardians should pay for your education.

"And... being 32 years old, I find it insulting that you think that it's my parants responsibility to pay for my tuition. I struggle to pay tuition myself, however know many people who come from poor families that will have their EOP dropped so far that they will no longer be able to go to school."

The private sector has already addressed this, too. You have heard of student loans, and I'm sure you have some, as I do.

I use student loans and my earnings to pay for tuition...investing in myself because I know the education I receive will be able to make up for the cost and give me the productive skills I need to exist in society.

As for the poor or impoverished, I'm sure you've heard of the private organizations that supply scholarships based on race, religion, financial status, etc. These are available to anyone that wants to work hard to earn them.

Also, would you find it insulting that I consider YOU responsible for your children's educations?

"But hey, at least you will have your tanks, your guns, and you petty wars."

War is never petty. To suggest that it is reveals a true detachment from the seriousness of the issues which wars are fought over.

(I couldn't get the IkonCode quotes to work right, so I had to edit to put your quotes in).

(Edited by lukecrouch at 4:29 pm on Mar. 28, 2003)

[lukecrouch]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 4:16 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
You see what I mean, with that slightly poor post, you will be unsuspecting until he talks about something really decent.


There is equal opportunity for rebuttle to my posts. This is what constitutes a debate. Expressing ideologies un-opposed (as all other forums on this site allow) cannot be considered to be rational analytical processes.

[Smoking Frog II]

go for it! take zombie on! you will probably win with your profound knowledge.

[RedCeltic]

Education is a right, not a privilege. The government should be taking care of it’s own people, not bombing other people. If we where not spending so much money on supporting imperialistic wars, corporate welfare, and building more prisons, local governments would have enough money to create quality education.

Selective and restrictive scholarships are not the answer to funding education for the poor communities. More than 75% of students at SUNY Buffalo depend on EOP and HEOP to go to school. As well as TAP, grants, and subsidized loans.

Denial of access to a FREE Quality education is a crime! It wasn’t very long ago that City college had free tuition. But Greedy politicians continue to balance the budget on the backs of poor working families and students, meanwhile making exorbitant tax breaks for the wealthy.

There needs to be an end to the federal government. There needs to be an end to the State Government. There needs to be an end to wage slavery… and than… communities will have the money needed to build wholesome communities, that focus on educating people, not bombing them.

[Smoking Frog II]

Education is a right. Everyone is entitled to it. Shame 3rd worlders don't all get it. Bye everyone. Snooze.

[Anonymous]

The only true rights that exist are the rights to life, liberty, and property.

[Chiak47]

DC-Don't forget the everlasting task of finding true happiness.

[Smoking Frog II]

It is compulsory to attend school, therefore it must be a right.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 12:15 am on Mar. 29, 2003
The only true rights that exist are the rights to life, liberty, and property.


Private property exists to deny the right to public access to property, therefore there is no right to property in the US

Liberty can not exist without a proper education. Denyal of education to the public is a denyal of liberty to the public.

The right to "Life" in the ghetto with no way out, and no access to public ecucation is no life at all.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 3:43 pm on Mar. 29, 2003

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 12:15 am on Mar. 29, 2003
The only true rights that exist are the rights to life, liberty, and property.


Liberty can not exist without a proper education. Denyal of education to the public is a denyal of liberty to the public.

The right to "Life" in the ghetto with no way out, and no access to public ecucation is no life at all.

One of the few things I will agree the government to meddle with is education. Before WW2 higher education was only for upper classes, the GI Bill opened the universities to people just 10 years prior would have never been there. The GI Bill investment has produced a professional class in this country that is unmatched anywere. I will even argue that the GI Bill saved this country from economic disaster after WW2, without the professional class it created, there could not have been a post war economic boom. The pre-war status quo could not have produced enough trained professionals to maintain an economic boom.

I would not call education a right. I would call it a wise investment, personally and for society.