Today, is there anyone in a communist state happy?

[kelvin90701]

I agree when a lot of communist states were founded, the system it replaced was terrible. Today in 2003, is anyone happy living in a communist country?

[Just Joe]

i'd say the only two Communist regimes with a popular government would be Cuba and China. Cuba mainly for the patriotic element and the fact that there living standards are ok for Latin America, and China because there living standard is going through the roof.

the Vietnam Communists may get support for the same reason as Cuba; Patriotism and anti-imperialism. i can't see whats too hot about living in any of the other states. but then i can't see whats too hot about living in some Capitalist coutnries.

[Hampton]

These kids look pretty happy in Cuba:

http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/today/images/yoc-cuba3.jpg

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Hampton on 6:02 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
These kids look pretty happy in Cuba:

http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/today/images/yoc-cuba3.jpg


A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are is less than a thousand words for you:

"Food shortages top the list of complaints in most households." - ciponline

http://www.canfnet.org/News/archived/020711newsa.htm
http://www.ciponline.org/cubanew/cubainthe...120500grogg.htm (http://www.ciponline.org/cubanew/cubainthenews/newsarchives/december2000/ips120500grogg.htm)

China is not Communist, it has been reformed. They are now opening up free markets.

[Hampton]

http://www.childrennow.org/newsroom/news-0.../ra-6-13-02.htm (http://www.childrennow.org/newsroom/news-02/ra-6-13-02.htm)

http://www.nccp.org/ycpf_03.html

16 percent of children (almost 12 million children) live in poverty (19 percent of children under age six—more than 4 million children), in families with incomes below the federal poverty line ($14,255 for a family of three in 2001). About the name number of children lived in poverty in 1980.

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/amer...sbirth_rate.cfm (http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/americasbirth_rate.cfm)

[Anonymous]

ask the lower classes in todays russia when they were happyer, today, or before the fall of CCCP..

they will say you, BEFORE!

one wonders why...

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Hampton on 6:23 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
http://www.childrennow.org/newsroom/news-0.../ra-6-13-02.htm (http://www.childrennow.org/newsroom/news-02/ra-6-13-02.htm)

http://www.nccp.org/ycpf_03.html

16 percent of children (almost 12 million children) live in poverty (19 percent of children under age six—more than 4 million children), in families with incomes below the federal poverty line ($14,255 for a family of three in 2001). About the name number of children lived in poverty in 1980.

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/amer...sbirth_rate.cfm (http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/americasbirth_rate.cfm)


Granted, that is everything that is wrong with capitalism. I admit it there is a lot of misery with a capitialist system. Communist systems are not rosy. Communism does not occupy a holly pedistal. I am trying to convice communist that communism will not be a utopia or anywhere near it. Most likely it will be a Stalinist or Cambodian nightmare.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from the anarchist on 6:25 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
ask the lower classes in todays russia when they were happyer, today, or before the fall of CCCP..

they will say you, BEFORE!

one wonders why...

.


The Russians are now suffering for more than 60 years of inept stewardship. Yes the communist were inept. For 60 years they were walking on a slow decline towards a cliff, when the CCCP fell is when they finally collectively jumped off the cliff. They are not yet hitting bottom. What ever they do, they have two choices. Try the experiment again or follow the western free markets.

[Politrickian]

My parents lived in Yugoslavia which was "Communist"

They say it was the best period of their live. Especially under Tito although my mother wasn't so old when he died.

[Saint-Just]

There are 22 million in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea that despite some hardships love their fellow comrades, Korean socialism and socialism across the globe.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Politrickian on 7:00 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
My parents lived in Yugoslavia which was "Communist"

They say it was the best period of their live. Especially under Tito although my mother wasn't so old when he died.


That is the coolest signature ever.

[RedCeltic]

I have read that in stark contrast to the Soviet Union, most people are quite happy in Cuba.

Some people may be attracted to the USA for whatever reason and find themselves on innertubes, or airplanes, etc on the way to the US.

Most, seem to be happy just living their lives. Compaired to many other latin American nations, Cubans have much less worries.

[Just Joe]

i'm suprised noones pointed out the contradiction in the term 'Communist State'.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 8:12 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
I have read that in stark contrast to the Soviet Union, most people are quite happy in Cuba.

Some people may be attracted to the USA for whatever reason and find themselves on innertubes, or airplanes, etc on the way to the US.

Most, seem to be happy just living their lives. Compaired to many other latin American nations, Cubans have much less worries.


OK I stand corrected. Minus the people on the innertubes. I betcha Cubans could be a little happier with some more "bling bling" and a juicy steak every once in a while.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 6:33 pm on Mar. 28, 2003

Granted, that is everything that is wrong with capitalism. I admit it there is a lot of misery with a capitialist system. Communist systems are not rosy. Communism does not occupy a holly pedistal. I am trying to convice communist that communism will not be a utopia or anywhere near it. Most likely it will be a Stalinist or Cambodian nightmare.

You are thinking of communism in direct competition with an aggresive capitalist system. That might be a bit redundant to refer to it as aggresive, but I digress.

Communism is not structure in such a sense to be in direct competition with a capitalist system. Really any economic and socio-economic system suffers in a direct competition model. Look at capitalism, 400 Billion just on defense which over shadows any other spending program by 322 Billion dollars. If there wasn't direct competition with another system that could be directed to other needs and better well being to the whole body. But then again being capitalist there is more profit for those contractors the have much of that budget spent back to them. So you won't see that money for any reason be diverted because of lobbying and the such for profit in a capitalist system.

Just because one system can beat out another system in direct competition in a specific arena, doesn't constitute that economic system as better, like the cold war ending for example.

It would be like saying, two runners in a quarter mile race, one wins so that is the better winner. But what about putting the same two in a marathon, or having hurdles ect..ect.

When you try to setup an economic system of equality vs. an agressive capitalist western front, it enables the Stalinist to have more power because of threat. Since it is a centralized resources, it enables even more direct control by a dictator/ruler what have you.

You are only correct in saying that, that would be the end results of an attempted communist/socialist system in a country (ies) in direct competition which it is not designed for.

[kelvin90701]

What you are saying is a communist society can only exist if it does not have any competition from a capitalist one? I don't see capitalist systems just leaving the planet anytime soon. Whoooo Hooo! Communism is doomed to failure as long as capitalist are around and breathing.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 8:12 pm on Mar. 28, 2003

Some people may be attracted to the USA for whatever reason and find themselves on innertubes, or airplanes, etc on the way to the US.


That makes me think of the quote (its not actually acurate but gets idea across)
"You can only please half the people half the time and the other half none of the time"

Essentially, you can't please everyone.

[VolareMIRCantare]

Again, Jugoslavia, under Tito, was really really great. Also there is one state in India, called Kerala which is communist, and while the rest of the country is considered a 4th or 3rd (not quite sure) world country, Kerala is far more advanced and developed. I think the people there would be happy.

[Mazdak]

They arent communist countries, ameba minded buffoon.

[Hampton]

I betcha Cubans could be a little happier with some more "bling bling" and a juicy steak every once in a while

Please, stop. The great American idea that things make people happy is sickening.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Hampton on 9:34 pm on Mar. 28, 2003

I betcha Cubans could be a little happier with some more "bling bling" and a juicy steak every once in a while

Please, stop. The great American idea that things make people happy is sickening.

Sorry excuse the "bling bling" part. But those Cubans do need a steak every once in a while:

"Food shortages top the list of complaints in most households." - ciponline

http://www.canfnet.org/News/archived/020711newsa.htm
http://www.ciponline.org/cubanew/cubainthe...120500grogg.htm (http://www.ciponline.org/cubanew/cubainthenews/newsarchives/december2000/ips120500grogg.htm)

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Hampton on 9:34 pm on Mar. 28, 2003

Please, stop. The great American idea that things make people happy is sickening.

Well they do bring temporary happiness to those programmed to be consumers. Which really is just sad.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 9:13 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
What you are saying is a communist society can only exist if it does not have any competition from a capitalist one? I don't see capitalist systems just leaving the planet anytime soon. Whoooo Hooo! Communism is doomed to failure as long as capitalist are around and breathing.


Obviously not understanding the comparison of the short distance runner (capitalism) vs the Marathon long distance runner (Socialism/Communism).

Capitalism and its flaws as you have stated it has, is that it isn't a long term benefit nor can it survive a long distance. Capitalism by design eats itself up since all capital goes up, but only a small amount that is disportionate to the amount going up, comes back down. Hence, depressions, recessions, inflation, growing poverty, lesser social expendatures.

In fact when the top starts losing money, and to them losing money is rated in profits from ventures, buisnesses..ect..ect When growing at a rate of 12% and that is reduced to 10%, that is a sign of less going up.

To combat that, you give tax cuts to that small percentage, more government contracts to the owners of those private insitutions, release more treasury bills, and try schemes like putting social securty into the stock market.

And unfortuently that small percentage on the top doesn't spend all they recieve back down. In fact only a fraction of their total wealth goes back to development, expansion. And if you notice less and less actual growth but increase in aquisitions, which just goes back to a more centralized wealth structure that is exactly what is inherently the largest flaw with Capitalism.

[Liberty Lover]

is anyone happy living in a communist country?

Hu Jin Tao, Wen Jiabao, Xjiang Zemmin, Zeng Qinghong, Fidel Castro, Raul Castro, Tran Duc Luong, Nong Duc Manh, Phan Van Khai, Khamtai Siphandon, Boungnang Vorachith, Kim Jong-il, Kim Yõng-nam...That about covers them.

[Larissa]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 4:57 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
There are 22 million in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea that despite some hardships love their fellow comrades, Korean socialism and socialism across the globe.
I salute you ChairmanMao :biggrin: And please let's add the 11 million living in Cuba today. (I've been living happily there too!!!)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 4:57 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
There are 22 million in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea that despite some hardships love their fellow comrades, Korean socialism and socialism across the globe.


WARNING: DISTURBING PICTURE

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/Nkoreachildrc.jpg

Two thirds of North Korean children are stunted and severly malnourished. -- Courtesy of IFRC

[Just Joe]

2/3 are stunted? there fucking Korean! what d'ya expect them to be, basketball players?

and for every one of those pictures there is a million sick pictures showing the results of Capitalism/Imperialism/Zionism. all of which i'd presume you support.

EDIT:- i don't support North Korea but no-one can make a judgement on such a secretive society.

(Edited by Just Joe at 12:14 am on Mar. 29, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:13 am on Mar. 29, 2003

and for every one of those pictures there is a million sick pictures showing the results of Capitalism/Imperialism/Zionism. all of which i'd presume you support.


A more relevant comparison would be between images of North and South Korea.

[Just Joe]

yeah but like i said, North Korea i don't really support. they have a command economy, which really is not Socialist when you think about it.

and i'm sure Chairman Mao could tell you a few of the reasons for the gap in living standard between North and South.

[Liberty Lover]

Anyway, my point was that CM's claim that North Korean's are not sufering is wrong. Capitalism/imperialism/zionism is completley irrelevant to that.

[Liberty Lover]

and i'm sure Chairman Mao could tell you a few of the reasons for the gap in living standard between North and South.

So could I. The South is capitalist...the North is commnnist

[redstar2000]

Another stupid and meaningless question, kelvin90701.

Happy in what way? Happy when? Happiness is a subjective and transient feeling everywhere.

There are an enormous number of factors that contribute to "happiness"...which change on a daily and even hourly basis.

Do you pretend to measure such things?

Can't you even think of any real questions?

:cool:

[Just Joe]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:22 am on Mar. 29, 2003

and i'm sure Chairman Mao could tell you a few of the reasons for the gap in living standard between North and South.

So could I. The South is capitalist...the North is commnnist


how many times do i have to say there is NO Communist nation. there never has been.

Communism is an INTERNATIONAL social system which is supposed to eliminate oppression and exploitation. there is no state and no classes in Communism. to say this exists in North Korea is stupid.

most of the Cappies here really need to get the definitions of Communism and Socialism right.

[Liberty Lover]

*sigh*

Communism is a concept or system of society in which the major resources and means of production are owned by the community rather than by individuals. In theory, such societies provide for equal sharing of all work, according to ability, and all benefits, according to need. Some conceptions of communist societies assume that, ultimately, coercive government would be unnecessary and therefore that such a society would be without rulers. Until the ultimate stages are reached, however, communism involves the abolition of private property by a revolutionary movement; responsibility for meeting public needs is then vested in the state.

[thursday night]

As a Marxist-Leninist, a staunch supporter and admirer of Fidel Castro, and a person who has visited Cuba (the real Cuba, not Veradero or some tourist resort) and spoken and mingled with the working people of that socialist island, I must say that the lies put forth by the bourgeoisie American media machine regarding socialism in Cuba are complete lies. Nobody starves in Cuba. This is a fact. Poverty is almost non-existent. Compare Cuba to any of it’s neighbors and you will see which nation is preferable to live in; in Central and South America young children dig through garbage dumps and beg for petty scraps of food, but there is none of this in Cuba. In other Latin American countries you will find people sick and on the street dieing from easily curable diseases but there is none of this in Cuba, in fact Cuba’s healthcare system is world-renown for being excellent (it has the highest doctor-patient ratio in the world). Education is completely free from day care services to University, and illiteracy is virtually non-existent.

So what are the problems with the amazing success of socialism in the Republic of Cuba? The capitalists claim that the people starve and suffer great poverty, but the facts disagree and I have seen with my own eyes that these are simply lies. They claim that Cuba lacks democracy, when in truth it is a shining example of socialist democracy and I can explain just how democratic it is if I am requested to do so. They claim that there are no human rights, but how can this be so? Cuba has won multiple awards from the UN for excellence in human rights.

Cuba under revolutionary socialism has become what the United States of America has always feared for Latin America: a good example.

[YerbaMateJ]

Thank you Thursday.

Long live The Revolution.

I can't wait to see it for myself.

(Edited by YerbaMateJ at 2:42 am on Mar. 29, 2003)

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:42 am on Mar. 29, 2003
Another stupid and meaningless question, kelvin90701.

Happy in what way? Happy when? Happiness is a subjective and transient feeling everywhere.

There are an enormous number of factors that contribute to "happiness"...which change on a daily and even hourly basis.

Do you pretend to measure such things?

Can't you even think of any real questions?



:cool:


Time for a dick measuring contest you prick. You have done nothing but trhow insults at me and call me stupid. I have treated you with the common respect due all strangers.

What makes you so smart? I have two degress in in Physics a speciality in nuclear physics and another one in Electrical Engineering with speciality in digital signal processing. I am published in both fields.

[redstar2000]

kelvin90701, it's odd that with all those academic credentials that you never learned to spell. Did you order your degrees through the mail?

I don't think I actually have called you "stupid"...but I'm willing to rectify the omission.

While there certainly are intelligent defenders of capitalism (the staff of The Economist come to mind), you are not even remotely in their league.

You sound, in fact, like a talk-radio host that has been taught to read and write...barely. Your comments are banal, your factoids absurd, and your "questions" give stupidity a whole new meaning.

You seem to be under the impression that I "owe" you some kind of "respect". On what grounds? As far as I can tell, you're just another lackey of U.S. imperialism...less deserving of respect than a pirate or a cannibal.

Welcome to the class struggle, "longdick".

:cool:

[YerbaMateJ]

"Happiness may be perceived as a heightened sense of aliveness attained through physical pleasure, or a more secure and more complete sense of self attained through some sort of psychological gratification. This is the search for salvation from a state of unsatisfactoriness or insufficiency. Invariably, any satisfaction that they obtain is short-lived, so the condition of satisfaction or fulfillment is usually projected once again onto an imaginary point away from the here and now. 'When I obtain this or am free of that---then I will be okay.' This is the unconscious mind-set that creates the illusion of salvation in the future.

True salvation is fulfullment, peace, life in all its fullness. It is to be who you are, to feel within you the good that has no opposite, the joy of Being that depends on nothing outside itself. It is felt not as a passing experience but as an abiding presence..."

(Eckhart Tolle)

Can this be achieved by communism? How should I know? Some believe this kind of happiness can happen right here and right now.

Whatever it takes...

YMj:biggrin:

(Edited by YerbaMateJ at 7:03 am on Mar. 29, 2003)

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 5:52 am on Mar. 29, 2003
kelvin90701, it's odd that with all those academic credentials that you never learned to spell. Did you order your degrees through the mail?

I don't think I actually have called you "stupid"...but I'm willing to rectify the omission.

While there certainly are intelligent defenders of capitalism (the staff of The Economist come to mind), you are not even remotely in their league.

You sound, in fact, like a talk-radio host that has been taught to read and write...barely. Your comments are banal, your factoids absurd, and your "questions" give stupidity a whole new meaning.

You seem to be under the impression that I "owe" you some kind of "respect". On what grounds? As far as I can tell, you're just another lackey of U.S. imperialism...less deserving of respect than a pirate or a cannibal.

Welcome to the class struggle, "longdick".

:cool:


What ever degree you have if you even have one, I am sure it is one that Physics majors and EE's go into when they change departments because the logic and reason of a science is too difficult.

I suppose I am going to be banned now.

See you at the mall behind the counter in the food court.

[redstar2000]

kelvin90701, stop waving your degrees in my face. Whatever they might be worth to you professionally, they don't mean shit here.

And where does a working scientist find the time to spam a message board, anyway? Don't you have any real work to do?

Here, you are judged on the quality of your posts...and they are moronic! You make Rush Limbaugh sound like an intellectual, for crying out loud.

You need not fear being banned...it's actually quite rare on this site even when, as in your case, it's so well deserved.

And were I to work in a food court and recognize you as a customer, I'd spit on your food. :cheesy:

:cool:

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:22 am on Mar. 29, 2003

and i'm sure Chairman Mao could tell you a few of the reasons for the gap in living standard between North and South.

So could I. The South is capitalist...the North is commnnist


Living standards in the South have always been higher due to massive aid from the U.S. and the continuing highly restrictive blocades on the North. In addition, the entirity of the North was decimated in the Korean war, in this thousands of acres of forrestry were destroyed leaving the county highly susceptible to floods and droughts. The main problem is insufficient energy production due to U.S. blocades that bar the country from exporting or importing any goods or raw materials. Despite this the North has enjoyed a relatively good standard of living since its founding in the late 40's and considering it was previously highly underdeveloped. The country has carried out massive construction very rapidly over the last 50 years, and currently prides itslef by having an army powerful enough to make any country think twice before attacking, specifically the U.S.

Prosperity currently relies on the removal of the U.S. 1993 TWEA (trade with enemies agreement). A program that hinders any country trading with the DPRK without special permission.

[Xvall]

Ask the people in Moldova. They are quite happy with their democratically elected communist leaders.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:41 pm on Mar. 29, 2003
kelvin90701, stop waving your degrees in my face. Whatever they might be worth to you professionally, they don't mean shit here.

And where does a working scientist find the time to spam a message board, anyway? Don't you have any real work to do?

Here, you are judged on the quality of your posts...and they are moronic! You make Rush Limbaugh sound like an intellectual, for crying out loud.

You need not fear being banned...it's actually quite rare on this site even when, as in your case, it's so well deserved.

And were I to work in a food court and recognize you as a customer, I'd spit on your food. :cheesy:

:cool:


Don't worry when I get over the flu, I'll leave you alone in your little make believe world here. By then I have to worry collecting data from exo-atmospheric vehicles.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 5:21 pm on Mar. 29, 2003

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:22 am on Mar. 29, 2003

and i'm sure Chairman Mao could tell you a few of the reasons for the gap in living standard between North and South.

So could I. The South is capitalist...the North is commnnist


Living standards in the South have always been higher due to massive aid from the U.S. and the continuing highly restrictive blocades on the North. In addition, the entirity of the North was decimated in the Korean war, in this thousands of acres of forrestry were destroyed leaving the county highly susceptible to floods and droughts. The main problem is insufficient energy production due to U.S. blocades that bar the country from exporting or importing any goods or raw materials. Despite this the North has enjoyed a relatively good standard of living since its founding in the late 40's and considering it was previously highly underdeveloped. The country has carried out massive construction very rapidly over the last 50 years, and currently prides itslef by having an army powerful enough to make any country think twice before attacking, specifically the U.S.

Prosperity currently relies on the removal of the U.S. 1993 TWEA (trade with enemies agreement). A program that hinders any country trading with the DPRK without special permission.


US trade restrictions do not stop N Korea from trading with other communist systems. All the communist sytems around the world working together could not stop themselves from crashing and burning.

The CCCP and China were all blessed with a wealth of natural resources, but thier systems were so inefficient they could not take advantage of that natural wealth.