Capitalist crisis: can revolution be succesful? (split from "US economy is dying")

[Elliot_R]

It recovered after the depression, dont you think it can recover again? It's interesting to note that even after economic turmoil that existed in the 30s, the market economy revived and indeed was productive and prosperous during the 90s.

[Red Anarchist of Love]

It's the WAR economy,stupid. check out www.unitedforpeace.org (http://www.unitedforpeace.org)

[Elliot_R]

Ya, the war got the US got out of the depression. So it can work once again. Isn't it interesting that during the whole history of capitalism, capitalism as an economic system has never collapsed without getting right back up? Just interesting, that's all.

[Tower of Bebel]

Ya, the war got the US got out of the depression. So it can work once again. Isn't it interesting that during the whole history of capitalism, capitalism as an economic system has never collapsed without getting right back up? Just interesting, that's all.

Of course it can work again. Capitalism does not destroy itself. If a war kills the millions of unemployed, ends overproduction and makes capital conquer or create new markets then the crisis will be over. But do we want a war that destroys thousands of houses, ends millions of lives and kills the hopes of billions of people? We want a truly human society, and that's what Marx called communism.

[Elliot_R]

How can you be certain that communism can be "a truly human society"?

[Tower of Bebel]

You're a revolutionary (http://www.revleft.com/vb/faq.php?faq=restrictions#faq_whatisrestrict)?

How can you be certain that communism can be "a truly human society"?
For now it's just an (awesome) theory, so we need to rely on trial (and error). That a socialist revolution will happen again is certain, because the material conditions of capitalism give raise to alternative ideas.

[Elliot_R]

OK, how many times must we try it then?

[Red Anarchist of Love]

the rich are stealing money from the poor by cuting social programs and investing it in corparations like halabuton. it's a form of exstorstion on a large scale. I would love to see a program like the New Deal, it was the closed the the US goverment's ever been to socialism.
check out this video http://www.afsc.org/Iraq/ht/display/ContentDetails/i/19245

[Tower of Bebel]

OK, how many times must we try it then?
Communism isn't a lab experiment. Do you know what communism is?

[Elliot_R]

OK we tried it in Russia, in China, in many places, how many more times do we do this until we realize it is "good"?

[Tower of Bebel]

OK we tried it in Russia, in China, in many places, how many more times do we do this until we realize it is "good"?
Never was communism ever achieved, and most wont argue that ever socialism was achieved. What happened was a socialist revolution with international proportions which lost the battle with the capitalists because of betrayals and weaknesses, then the revolution got isolated and ultimately it degenerated. So we have experienced the defeat of the first international wave of socialist revolutions, not the failure of communism or socialism.
The USSR and the PRC where regimes led by a communist party. Saying that these regimes were communist is believing Cold War propaganda. Or you don't know the difference between government and economics.

Capitalism also needed a lot of time before it forced a breakthrough, didn't it (1550 - 1800)?

The current crisis of capitalism is a new important moment for the working class to revolt against capitalist oppression.

[Elliot_R]

Why did the revolutions fail?

[Robespierre2.0]

Traitorous elements from within these revolutions used political intrigue to gain influence in the party, and once they were in a position of power, they slowly began to adopt more and more elements of capitalism, eventually resulting in full-blown capitalism.

[Elliot_R]

If it's happened before, how can we ensure it wont happen again?

[Tower of Bebel]

I moved this discussion to learning.

If it's happened before, how can we ensure it wont happen again?The revolutionaries need to be organized succesfuly amongst a strong and organized working class movement.

[Yehuda Stern]

If it's happened before, how can we ensure it wont happen again?

I can't find the exact quote now (I'll be thankful if anyone can help me find it), but when asked how he can guarantee that the Stalinist takeover of the Russian revolution won't repeat itself in future revolutions, James P. Cannon said that he can't guarantee such a thing. Marxists don't make promises they can't keep. The only thing that can be guaranteed is that if capitalism continues to live, than all humanity will suffer.

[Psy]

Ya, the war got the US got out of the depression. So it can work once again. Isn't it interesting that during the whole history of capitalism, capitalism as an economic system has never collapsed without getting right back up? Just interesting, that's all.
The problem is the war can't get the capitalist out of the current crisis. World war is not a solution this time around as Russia can turn all of the USA into a inhabitable wasteland with just a push of a button. Meaning if the US capitalist class backs the Russian capitalist class into a corner then the capitalist class of both will be wiped off the face of the Earth (along with the proletariat) as they exchange ICBMs.

[Elliot_R]

The revolutionaries need to be organized succesfuly amongst a strong and organized working class movement.


OK, explain how this will work.



I can't find the exact quote now (I'll be thankful if anyone can help me find it), but when asked how he can guarantee that the Stalinist takeover of the Russian revolution won't repeat itself in future revolutions, James P. Cannon said that he can't guarantee such a thing. Marxists don't make promises they can't keep. The only thing that can be guaranteed is that if capitalism continues to live, than all humanity will suffer.

So you're willing to let MORE people suffer from a possible dictatorship, much worse than capitalism would ever be?

[Tower of Bebel]

Elliot, I would advise you to read some books on both marxism and the history of the workers' movement.

So you're willing to let MORE people suffer from a possible dictatorship, much worse than capitalism would ever be?
I think that the problem with American Trotskyist during the Trotskyist-Stalinist split was that they couldn't really explain how this could have happened.

[Robespierre2.0]

OK, explain how this will work.

We thoroughly purge revisionists and right-opportunists from the party. Also, with the example of Kruschev's betrayal fresh in the minds of communists, I'm pretty sure we could call these traitors out as soon as they crop up.



So you're willing to let MORE people suffer from a possible dictatorship, much worse than capitalism would ever be?

Only the bourgeoisie will suffer, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for the original topic, it depends on how far the market declines. Of course, it's possible that the bourgeoisie may be able to delay the crash, but it's collapse, be it in the near future or years from now, is inevitable.

Also, I believe Marx observed that these 'crises of capitalism' have a tendency to get worse each time they occur, since more capital is concentrated in fewer hands each time they happen.

One part of me thinks that the U.S. will pull through. After all, the citizenry is still imbued with cold-war propaganda, and those that aren't are trotskyists (sorry, but I dont think you guys have a good track record on this whole revolution thing). We also have a powerful central government that can easilly become more invasive and controlling as the crisis intensifies.

However, on the other hand, we can't underestimate the stupidity of those in power. Fascism would be the obvious solution for the bourgeoisie, but Nazism is also fresh in the public mind; it would be political suicide. At the same time, both parties are obsessed with their own interpretations of Reaganite Neoliberalism, meaning our leaders have been conditioned to hate the European social-democratic welfare state, the other obvious solution. Even if the government did make an ideological shift to social-democracy, odds are that Reaganites would still be prevalent in government and fight the soc-dems every step of the way, similar to how the Republicans prevented FDR from going as far as he wanted with reforms in the 30s. We've sort of backed ourselves into an ideological corner.

If there is a collapse, I expect complete anarchy (not the type you're thinking of), as a whole generation currently living in bourgeois comfort, and raised on video-games, militarist culture, and soulless consumerism have to fend for themselves for the first time in their lives.

[Yehuda Stern]

So you're willing to let MORE people suffer from a possible dictatorship, much worse than capitalism would ever be?

No, you two cents troll, I'm saying that the continuation of capitalism will lead to much more suffering than the failure of revolution could ever lead to.