These people work very hard.

[kelvin90701]

And they are not communist.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/corporate/career/
http://www.fed.org/onlinemag/dec98/briefcase.html

It is definately not a Harvard MBA model system of management, but they work hard for MONEY and only MONEY. They don't work for a community, common good, or idealism; they work for MONEY.

[synthesis]

Okay.

[RedCeltic]

These people work very hard. They are not commmunists or capitalists.

http://www.iww.org


http://www.infoshop.org

[kelvin90701]

This is the future of capitalism. Show me a communist worker who works as hard.

(Edited by kelvin90701 at 7:13 am on Mar. 28, 2003)

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 7:06 am on Mar. 28, 2003
These people work very hard. They are not commmunists or capitalists.

http://www.iww.org


http://www.infoshop.org


I have no doubt these people also work hard. I did hard labor for my fathers construction company as a teen ager. I have nothing but respect for men who can do that for a life time. I for one can not.

I don't think anyone on those links want to go to work as much as the workers at Lincoln Electric.

[Chiak47]

The rigs they make at Lincoln Electric are outstanding.

A product does reflect a happy worker or not.

[kelvin90701]

I would also like to add, Lincoln Electric is older than any communist system around today or one that has fallen before. Where did all the Commies go?

[Chiak47]

I just read the info.WOW that sounds like a good place to work.

They have a distribution site not far from here I will go check them out this afternoon.

The Incentive Management System in place at Lincoln Electric features the following:

An elected advisory board for direct and open communications with senior management. This advisory board has been in existence since 1913.

Piecework incentive rewards for all productive work.
Pay is directly based on output.
Employees are merit rated every six months; they are rated on the quality of their work minus days of absence; the quality of their work minus customer rejections; dependability; and on their ideas and cooperation.
In addition, there are daily incentives for all production workers.
Employees are paid the average rate for a worker of that skill type in the Cleveland, Ohio area; but with the daily incentive, they can potentially earn in excess of $100,000 a year.
A profit-sharing bonus plan for employees paid annually at the discretion of the Board of Directors.
Guaranteed employment after three years of service. The company has not laid off an employee since 1948.
A 401(k) plan offering employees a variety of pre-tax investment options.
Competitive compensation and other benefits.


BTW money is a good thing.It feeds me and mine.

[kelvin90701]

Does your wife have a sister? My excuse is at home sick with flu. I am willing to cook and clean and stay home with the kids.

[Chiak47]

.

(Edited by Chiak47 at 3:34 pm on Mar. 28, 2003)

[RedCeltic]

We have people from all trades in the IWW, and many shops that are organized as cooperatives where all employees are owners of the producton, each individual employee works 10 times harder than the entire operation at your silly little shop.

Why? Because they all have a say in how things are made, and all get an equal share of profit.


In your case, you are trying to say that capitalism works because american labor knows it's job and works hard. What bullshit.

Caitalists have nothing to do with how hard people work. Why? Because american workers are hard working and dedicated to their craft.

You saying that their hard work is because of some rich fuckers in a board meeting is disgusting. Captialists have nothing to do with it.

[Pete]

I am a hard working communist. My mom works for a non-profit organization and spends a lot of her time volunteering for it when she isn't being payed.

What is your point? I accept that people are motivated by money. If you like your shiny looney, fine... But I do not see your point.

[kelvin90701]

What did you say "profit"?. What about the good of the community, the spirit of idealism, and common good?

So then thier 3 motives are MONEY, MONDEY, and MONEY.

[RedCeltic]

He is trying to say that american workers are lazy and wouldn't work hard if it wasn't for them being paid well.

Which is realy a dumb argument when you think about it, because if he believes that, than think about how much harder they would work if they owned the means of production, had a say in how things where made, and made a share of the profit.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 2:59 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
He is trying to say that american workers are lazy and wouldn't work hard if it wasn't for them being paid well.

Which is realy a dumb argument when you think about it, because if he believes that, than think about how much harder they would work if they owned the means of production, had a say in how things where made, and made a share of the profit.

I'm trying to say that people everywhere are lazy. Americans will work hard for the "American Dream" insentive. Not all Americans want that so do not consider it an insentive. Still the "American Dream" has motivated generations to work very very hard.

Communism has inspired generations of workers to be drunk on the job.

[kelvin90701]

Chiak. While we wait for the commies answer this:

"Ginger or Maryanne? How about Mrs. Howell? Could you, you know humna humna Mrs. Howell?"

[Pete]

Yes. I get drunk on the job. Throw out that stereotype. I rarely ever drink let alone get drunk.

The American Dream is death. No matter where you start looking at it from the end result is suffering and death for someone. That is the sad thing about capitalism. There has to be a loser. Even if everyone is highly motivated and education someone will lose. It is by the invisible hand that someone is made successful, not necassarly by work-ethic/qualitiy of work/ ect.

[Chiak47]

the brunette...
Although Mrs.Howell was loaded wasnt she...
Cant I have both I'm a greedy capi damnit.

I bet we could find oil on that there island...Whatcha think?

Maybe we can kill off those pesky endangered sea turtles since we are monsters.

I'm sure there is a indigent people there we can misplace.

You know for people that are sooo against stereotypes the bleeding hearts here sure try to pin them on us.


.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 3:30 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
the brunette...
Although Mrs.Howell was loaded wasnt she...
Cant I have both I'm a greedy capi damnit.

I bet we could find oil on that there island...Whatcha think?

Maybe we can kill off those pesky endangered sea turtles since we are monsters.

I'm sure there is a indigent people there we can misplace.

You know for people that are sooo against stereotypes the bleeding hearts here sure try to pin them on us.


.

I 'd do Mrs. Howell. I saw a picture of her, not on the show. Mrs. Howell is hot!

Convice me that the workers an Lincoln Electric are successful by an "invisibe hand".

Soooo, Crazy Pete, what do you think of Lincoln Electric? What motivates them to work so hard? What motivates a worker in a communist system?

Crazy Pete, "Ginger or Maryann?"

[Pete]

I pin you with what you are.

[kelvin90701]

Sheeesh. The qestion too tough? Not the one about, you know Ginger and Maryanne.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 9:06 am on Mar. 28, 2003

Quote: from RedCeltic on 2:59 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
He is trying to say that american workers are lazy and wouldn't work hard if it wasn't for them being paid well.

Which is realy a dumb argument when you think about it, because if he believes that, than think about how much harder they would work if they owned the means of production, had a say in how things where made, and made a share of the profit.

I'm trying to say that people everywhere are lazy. Americans will work hard for the "American Dream" insentive. Not all Americans want that so do not consider it an insentive. Still the "American Dream" has motivated generations to work very very hard.

Communism has inspired generations of workers to be drunk on the job.


Total rubish. Some people may only work at their job for the money. However Many people work their jobs because it's something that they love to do. Some people love working with their hands and do that kind of work because they like to do it.

If everyone was motivated by greed than everyone would want to be a lawyer. That's simply not the case. And, the vast majority of students who go to undergrad school, take up subjects that most interest them, and not simply diving into an applied degree focusing on making massive mounds of cash.

[Chiak47]

Lawyers?
Aren't most trial lawyers in fact progressive democrats?The republicans are trying to get caps on What these "lawyers" can recieve in settlements.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 3:53 pm on Mar. 28, 2003


Total rubish. Some people may only work at their job for the money. However Many people work their jobs because it's something that they love to do. Some people love working with their hands and do that kind of work because they like to do it.

If everyone was motivated by greed than everyone would want to be a lawyer. That's simply not the case. And, the vast majority of students who go to undergrad school, take up subjects that most interest them, and not simply diving into an applied degree focusing on making massive mounds of cash.


I agree, money is not the main motivation for a lot of people. Talented people opt for less money and persue interesting subjects. Post docs don't work in factories. What is the motivation for a communist factory worker? Is the work in a communist factory interesting?

[RedCeltic]

I don't believe in communism. I believe in anachist cooperatives. Interesting? Yes everyone would have a say in how things where made.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:31 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
I don't believe in communism. I believe in anachist cooperatives. Interesting? Yes everyone would have a say in how things where made.


Answer the question. Ginger or Maryanne?

How about you Crazzzzzy Pete? What is the motivation for a worker in a communist factory?

Now both you, don't dodge the tough question.

[RedCeltic]

Maryanne. Ginger was a capitalist ho. ;)

[Chiak47]

Ahh but she was pretty.I bet she is all fucked up looking now.
Age is a *****....

[Larissa]

I work for dignity. Money is those papers you need to exchange for some stuff you need to live.

[Chiak47]

Shit I like to pay my car payments.I love the fact I have a place to live.
Hell my kids love the video games.

I don't need my computer to live.In fact I have several things I could and should do right now.Big fishing trip in the AM.

[RedCeltic]

In an anarchist society, "Profit" would be transformed from the green peices of paper, to the goods needed to live off of. The economy would be transformed to that of reseprocity and redistrabution.

[Chiak47]

Red,
With that logic at hand.How would goods that you don't need be purchased such as radios,computers,or even newspapers?Barter?1,000 ears of corn for that sony radio?

Thanks
Eric

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 5:31 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
Red,
With that logic at hand.How would goods that you don't need be purchased such as radios,computers,or even newspapers?Barter?1,000 ears of corn for that sony radio?

Thanks
Eric

What comes to mind when I read that is John Belushi in the Blues Brothers. When he is in a restaurant and turns to a father sitting at another table, "HEHEHE how much, how much for the little girl? I want to buy her." Without money, what do we do for prostitition?

But hey, what about that motivation thingy? What is the motivation for worker in a communist system?

[Moskitto]

I don't think money is the sole reason why all people are motivated to do a job, there are a number of things that motivate people to do a job or start a job, both intrinsic or extrinsic. A Stock Broker or Lawyer may be motivated by money, however a brewer may be motivated by the desire to produce a high quality product or a fireman may be motivated by the respect such a job earns, but some may start a job because they enjoy it, like amature sportspersons, I have chosen to concentrate on the non-olympic discipline within my sport even though there is very little funding for it as a whole and no individual funding, i could try to concentrate on the olympic discipline where there is funding that can reduce my need to work in a real job, but i don't enjoy the olympic discipline, likewise someone who wants to be a microbiologist would rather be a good microbiologist than go for a job lawyer.

[RedComrade]

I beleive what we see in our present society is a motivation to have basic living standards. The motivation for excess is not healthy and a quick study of pyshcology reveals it does not lead to hapiness. I for one know that while I do have a desire for some luxuries like a computer and a ranch house I do not desire for anything else materially. Instead I am motivated by social factors, and the knowledge of a job well done. Indeed is not the pursuit of wealth just a pursuit of the social recognition that comes with it? I beleive in a society were things were equal (or at least much closer) and it had been a couple generations since capitalism the greed factor would cease to be a problem. Even today I'm not so sure pursuit of money is as big of a deal as you think. It is my opinion from experience that for every man who is working for the $$ to buy a new car a man is working (if hes lucky enough to have career options) because it satisfies the inherent desire in man to create something outside himself. Also people work for increased free time (better hours), better jobs, and easier jobs.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from RedComrade on 9:24 pm on Mar. 28, 2003
I beleive what we see in our present society is a motivation to have basic living standards. The motivation for excess is not healthy and a quick study of pyshcology reveals it does not lead to hapiness. I for one know that while I do have a desire for some luxuries like a computer and a ranch house I do not desire for anything else materially. Instead I am motivated by social factors, and the knowledge of a job well done. Indeed is not the pursuit of wealth just a pursuit of the social recognition that comes with it? I beleive in a society were things were equal (or at least much closer) and it had been a couple generations since capitalism the greed factor would cease to be a problem. Even today I'm not so sure pursuit of money is as big of a deal as you think. It is my opinion from experience that for every man who is working for the $$ to buy a new car a man is working (if hes lucky enough to have career options) because it satisfies the inherent desire in man to create something outside himself. Also people work for increased free time (better hours), better jobs, and easier jobs.

Can you show me a communist example of such idealism? Where workers willingly work 12 hours a day?

How about Lincoln Electric? The model works, it is not a thoery.
And they are not communist.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/corporate/career/
http://www.fed.org/onlinemag/dec98/briefcase.html

[IHP]

"But hey, what about that motivation thingy? What is the motivation for worker in a communist system?"

Consider the current situation. Someone goes to school for thirteen years, then to university for a further 3-4 years to become a teacher, and earn next to nothing

Someone can drop out of school and become a garbageman, and earn more.

Therefore, where is the motivation to become a teacher?

--IHP

[redstar2000]

Well, kelvin90701, I finally got around to taking a look at those links you posted.

The funny thing is that the "opportunities available" sections said nothing about what the jobs actually paid. "Competitive wages" means nothing; that's just P.R. jabber.

My experience as a worker has been that the reason job ads don't mention pay is because it's too embarrassing; in fact, if you're looking for work and the ad doesn't mention what the job pays, you're wasting your time even applying.

Nor does the other link mention how much work someone would actually have to do to make "$100,000" a year. Is it even possible in the real world, where cars break down and people get sick, etc.?

Yet even were it the "worker's paradise" that your post implies, is it representative of American capitalism today?

Or should we look elsewhere? How about Wal-Mart? With more than 2,000,000 employees, it is now the largest single employer in the U.S. today. Wal-Mart is also known as "Minimum Wages R Us" and "Union Busters Inc.".

The future does look "bright", doesn't it? :cheesy:

:cool:

[RedCeltic]

I always hate those assholes who ask, "Well, how much are you looking for?" when you ask the wage scale. That is simply because they are looking for an idiot who low balls the wage figure.

Most of the decent paying jobs I have had, also had set wages.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from i hate pinochet on 3:16 am on Mar. 30, 2003
"But hey, what about that motivation thingy? What is the motivation for worker in a communist system?"

Consider the current situation. Someone goes to school for thirteen years, then to university for a further 3-4 years to become a teacher, and earn next to nothing

Someone can drop out of school and become a garbageman, and earn more.

Therefore, where is the motivation to become a teacher?

--IHP


I agree that there are more motivations that just money. I am glad I did not stay in the construction biz, instead I make less bling bling, and I am more happy.

But how about a communist worker in a communist system? I could think of lots of situations back when I was young to make me think the public school system was a Stalinist/Communist, but it is not.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:38 am on Mar. 30, 2003
Well, kelvin90701, I finally got around to taking a look at those links you posted.

The funny thing is that the "opportunities available" sections said nothing about what the jobs actually paid. "Competitive wages" means nothing; that's just P.R. jabber.

My experience as a worker has been that the reason job ads don't mention pay is because it's too embarrassing; in fact, if you're looking for work and the ad doesn't mention what the job pays, you're wasting your time even applying.

Nor does the other link mention how much work someone would actually have to do to make "$100,000" a year. Is it even possible in the real world, where cars break down and people get sick, etc.?

Yet even were it the "worker's paradise" that your post implies, is it representative of American capitalism today?

Or should we look elsewhere? How about Wal-Mart? With more than 2,000,000 employees, it is now the largest single employer in the U.S. today. Wal-Mart is also known as "Minimum Wages R Us" and "Union Busters Inc.".

The future does look "bright", doesn't it? :cheesy:

:cool:


In another thread I made an emotional plea to young Communist. Instead of using youthful energy to bring a Communism to the USA. go get an MBA. Start a company, become a gazillionaire, and pay your workers a decent wage. If YOU can think of way to manage a company that is profitable, treats workers well, and does not impact the environment; YOU will get the attention of all the other gazillionaires around the world. THEY will look to copy your management system.

It is an impossible task. CEO's of moderate genius get paid large sums for just accomplishing part of the above. If YOU can accomplish all of the above, then YOU will start a revolution that will change the world.

Harvard MBA right now are studying Lincoln Electric. "If you build it they will come". The Harvard MBAs did not theorize with a piece of paper then try to build a working model. Here is a model that is working, the MBAs are there trying to quantify it on paper.

That is why I keep asking, "Is there a communist model of insentive anywhere that is working?"

Yes a worker can make +$100,000, but he has to work very hard with lots of overtime at Lincoln Electric. The company is also famous for a quality product, happy workers don't produce crap. The SUVs and Caddies in the parking lot don't just belong to the managers and Licoln Electric.

Walmart's have a place in the world too, just like the Lincoln Electrics. Forget all this theoritcal economics and human behavior models. Communist are playing "fantasy role playing games" with societies. You may not like the free market system, but there is no working model of communist insentive for a worker. The closest I have seen to a working system of insentive is Stalinist Russia when they were at war with the Germans.

[redstar2000]

"CEOs of moderate genius..." :cheesy:

Those are the guys who can find their ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.

kelvin90701, you have no way of knowing whether making "$100,000" is a practical possibility...you're just going on the assertion in your link...and they got it from some PR guy. What you'd need is actual payroll records over the last 5 years or so...actually see if it happened even once.

"Wal-Marts have a place in the world, too" -- yes, they certainly do...and do you think it's just some kind of strange coincidence that the place of the Wal-Marts is enormously larger than the place of the Lincoln Electrics?

Your solicitude for our well-being is touching but misplaced. We do not want to be "successful" slave-owners; we are not interested in designing more effective "whips" (incentives) to make people "work harder."

You think of us as playing "fantasy games." You're entitled to your view, of course. The abolition of wage-slavery certainly seems like a "fantasy" in today's world. For thousands of years, the abolition of chattel slavery was a "fantasy"...most of that time it was literally unthinkable.

Then people began to fantasize. And then people did it. Not geniuses, by the way, just millions of ordinary people decided slavery and slave-owning had to go. The wealthy and powerful resisted...to no avail.

The reason you're here, kelvin90701, is because you want to put a stop to this fantasy...lest it someday become real. You are, no doubt, "a fine young master"...but perhaps one who fears a future in which masters are unneeded and most definitely unwanted.

Sorry to disturb your rest...

:cool:

[kelvin90701]

I ask again, is there anywhere where a communist system of insentive actually works?

I have thrown you a cookie. Look to Stalinist CCCP when they were fighting the Germans. That is the only time when a communist system has factory workers as productive as Lincoln Electric.

I never said every factory worker makes $100,000:

http://www.shrm.org/hrmagazine/articles/01...03covstorya.asp (http://www.shrm.org/hrmagazine/articles/0103/0103covstorya.asp)

but it has been done. Show me a communist factory worker who has the same possibility of living the same lifestyle is all I ask.