Christmas

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Sorry for mentioning it in September...
But as part of a school public speaking competition I have toa argue with a stricrt Christian on Christmas. SHould it be a celebration of Christ? Does is still carry that meaning etc.

I aim to talk about the date and many customs being Pagan etc.
The superior treatment of one faith over another for no reason but seeing it as a superior religion.
The fact that Christ wasnt born then, and he may not have been born at all!
Also the fact that hardly any People in Britain celebrate it as a religious festivile, it is celebrated by many of other faiths to an extent.
Only 15% of the "Christians" in the UK (72% of the population) will go to church at Christmas.

Any more ideas?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Just talk about basic freedom - people should celebrate however they damn well want, and not according to one group's preferences.

Other points are good too, particularly the one about the winter solstice/pagan festival stuff.

-Alex

[Jazzratt]

\Moved at behest of OP

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

I think I shall also say a few words on the fact that the Nativity story is historically bollocks

[pusher robot]

What is your aim? To try to "disprove" Christmas? Or to argue that it shouldn't be celebrated?

[union6]

i think that the first chapter of the documentary film 'Zeitgeist' would help you greatly.
Christmas is merely a celebration of the constellations and the movement of the sun ect. lol just watch the first part unless you want to see hours of 9/11 conspiracies :lol:

[pusher robot]

i think that the first chapter of the documentary film 'Zeitgeist' would help you greatly.
Christmas is merely a celebration of the constellations and the movement of the sun ect. lol just watch the first part unless you want to see hours of 9/11 conspiracies :lol:

Why do you say "merely" as though the constellations and movement of the planets (NOT the sun's movement, incidentally, unless you think the Catholic Church was right to oppose Galileo) are not worth celebrating?

[Killfacer]

What is the strict christian actually going to be arguing? That you should all pray to god on christmas or just that it is a christian festival?

(edit) also does anyone know why Easter was made way shitter than christmas?

[Dust Bunnies]

What is the strict christian actually going to be arguing? That you should all pray to god on christmas or just that it is a christian festival?

(edit) also does anyone know why Easter was made way shitter than christmas?

Hey, the Easter Bunny kicks ass.

[Dean]

Oh it's Christmas everyday, Christmas everyday, for those murdering creeps in the White House!

Unwrap that delightful cluster bomb. Bits of shrapnel and metal fall all around. They rip, and shred that tender brown flesh, oh it's oh so delicious. And it's all smiles in the White House.

[Bud Struggle]

Well I for one LOVE Christmas. The day of our dear Saviour's birth as well as a time for gift giving, love and cheer for all our fellow men. We always do our house up in style with bunting and lights and cancy canes and a huge Christmas tree. We have traveled all over the world over the years and have collected ornaments and other thing to decorate the tree with. Last year our tree was I think--about 12 feet tall and we packed full of stuff (we have enough for another tree.) We also have a Cristmas villiage that we've collected pieces to over the years. We lay down the lid of the piano and put the villiage on there.

We do the lights on the house in front but we also decorate the back--and the dock over water. We sometimes light everything up and go out in the boat and look at the lit up house and trees and dock and sing Christmas carols.

Beginning at Thanksgiving all the Chopin and Beethoven and all the other piano and cello and violin practice stops for a month and the kids just work in Christmas stuff--this year they'll work on Saint Saens's Christmas Oritorio. We'll see how it works out. :rolleyes:

And while I'm usually frugal with the children during the year--me and the little woman like to splurge and indulge the brats so there's plenty of things under the tree. The older daughter may want a car--I'm thinking Lotus Elise, but she wants a Jeep. We'll see.

We go to Midnight Mass and the next day--after Santa arrives we like to do a major dinner with all our family and friends. We bring out the Christmas Spode and the Christmas Waterford and usually do fish course (Jesus was a fisherman) than the main course a crown roast (crown in memory of the Kingship of Christ).

We also set on extra place at the table in case a begger comes by--it's a Christmas tadition. Saddly, no beggers have shown up yet, though--I guess the guards in our gated community don't let them in. I should remember to ask them to let one in.

Anyway we like Christmas. :)

[Dean]

the kids just work in Christmas stuff--this year they'll work on Saint Saens's Christmas Oritorio.
That's pretty cool.


The older daughter may want a car--I'm thinking Lotus Elise, but she wants a Jeep. We'll see.
My car's nearly finished! I'm the one in need >:(


We also set on extra place at the table in case a begger comes by--it's a Christmas tadition. Saddly, no beggers have shown up yet, though--I guess the guards in our gated community don't let them in. I should remember to ask them to let one in.
This was cool until the gated community remark. TomK, you're a class act.

[Bud Struggle]

This was cool until the gated community remark. TomK, you're a class act.

I was being self-scarcastic about that.

[Comrade B]

My father and brother are atheists, my mother is agnostic and I see religion as none of my business. We get a tree and give each other presents out of tradition.

[Bud Struggle]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/MercutioTomK/Santa_Marx.jpg

[Comrade B]

^
The capitalists would make a killing selling that coal...

[bcbm]

We also set on extra place at the table in case a begger comes by--it's a Christmas tadition. Saddly, no beggers have shown up yet, though--I guess the guards in our gated community don't let them in. I should remember to ask them to let one in.

PM your address, ain't no security guard ever kept me from a free meal. You better have some good ham and mashed potatoes though. And wine, of course.

[atheist_anarchist]

The easiest thing to mention is about how Christmas, now, has nothing to do with "Christ," i actually was reading a metalhammer magazine last Xmas and it was about Black Metal and Xmas so Dani Filth, a satanist, actually celebrates Xmas because he loves the whimsical thoughts it brings to mind and keeps his daughter interested with fantasy style things.

[Bud Struggle]

The easiest thing to mention is about how Christmas, now, has nothing to do with "Christ," i actually was reading a metalhammer magazine last Xmas and it was about Black Metal and Xmas so Dani Filth, a satanist, actually celebrates Xmas because he loves the whimsical thoughts it brings to mind and keeps his daughter interested with fantasy style things.

Actually there is nothing disrespectful in using the term Xmas instead of Christmas--X is just an abbreviation of the word "Christ" in Greek.

From Wiki:

The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as AD 1021. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.
In ancient Christian art, χ and χρ are abbreviations for Christ's name. In many manuscripts of the New Testament and icons, X is an abbreviation for Christos, as is XC (the first and last letters in Greek, using the lunate sigma); compare IC for Jesus in Greek. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551, 50 years before the first English colonists arrived in North America and 60 years before the King James Version of the Bible was completed. At the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of "Christian" and "Christianity"; and nowadays still are sometimes so used, but much less than "Xmas". The proper names containing the name "Christ" other than aforementioned are rarely abbreviated in this way (e.g. Hayden Xensen for the actor name "Hayden Christensen"). This apparent usage of "X" to spell the syllable "kris" (rather than the sounds "ks") has extended to "xtal" for "crystal", and on florists' signs "xant" for "chrysanthemum".(though these words are not etymologically related to "Christ"; "crystal" comes from a Greek word meaning "ice"; "chrysanthemum" comes from Greek words meaning "golden flower"; "Christ" comes from a Greek word meaning "anointed").

:)

[Dr Mindbender]

Hey, the Easter Bunny kicks ass.

He doesnt bring you shitloads of cool gadgets and stuff, just chocolate eggs the tight bastard.

:lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

Actually there is nothing disrespectful in using the term Xmas instead of Christmas--X is just an abbreviation of the word "Christ" in Greek.



I always thought the ''X'' was literally supposed to represent the christian cross.

[Bud Struggle]

I always thought the ''X'' was literally supposed to represent the christian cross.

Interesting that you would think that, you being Irish--the traditional Christian cross is "T" or rather "t" shaped. BUT the cross of Ireland, St Patrick's cross is a Red "X" (on a field of white,) and that's what you see on the Union Jack along with the "X" shaped St. Andrew's cross of Scotland and the "t" shaped St. George's cross of England.

And put them all together and you have a United Kingdom of patron saints.

Anyway the "X" idea comes from the myth that St. Andrew (and I guess St. Patrick) were crucified on "X" shaped crosses.

http://www.tamsquare.net/pictures/M/Bartolome-Esteban-Murillo-The-Martyrdom-of-St-Andrew-.jpg

Kind of kinky, I know--but Celtic people are kind of----well any way. :rolleyes::lol:

[Edit] You know I'm just kidding about that.:D

[Dr Mindbender]

To be honest the st patrick's flag didnt even enter my head but now you mention it it does help me to connect the dots. I've never seen that painting before (wow).

I put it more down to the fact that out of all the characters of the latin alphabet, ''x'' resembles a cross more than any other.

[Dust Bunnies]

He doesnt bring you shitloads of cool gadgets and stuff, just chocolate eggs the tight bastard.

:lol:


Well Santa is a total Capitalist. He owns a factory ran by elves, at least he does his own shipping...

Teh Bunneh on the other hand go picks eggs himself!

[Bud Struggle]

Well Santa is a total Capitalist. He owns a factory ran by elves, at least he does his own shipping...NO! The Elves run a Marxist workers cooperative--Santa is mearly the delivery person.


Teh Bunneh on the other hand go picks eggs himself!The Easter Bunny steals the eggs from hard working chickens that work as wage slaves for chicken feed.

Seriously though, you can take any of these myths and make them into anything you want them to be. The stories are completely wide open to interpretation. Christmas can fall well within the Marxist sociological framework.

[Ele'ill]

http://www.wickedsunshine.com/WagePeace/Consumerism/Images/Adbusters-BuyNothingChristmas.jpg

[Killfacer]

http://www.wickedsunshine.com/WagePeace/Consumerism/Images/Adbusters-BuyNothingChristmas.jpg


I would rather spend loads of my hard earned cash, give presents to my family and receive lots of gifts. Much, much more enjoyable.

[Ele'ill]

I would rather spend loads of my hard earned cash, give presents to my family and receive lots of gifts. Much, much more enjoyable.


meme

[Killfacer]

What in shit's name does meme mean?

[Jazzratt]

What in shit's name does meme mean?

Meme can either be used to mean a phrase, picture or idea that is popular on the internet and used incessently (a good example of this is lolcats and 80% of 4chan) or a metaphor, as created by Richard Dawkins, for social ideas; a "mental gene" if you will (a good example of this is religion).

[Decolonize The Left]

Christmas is just downright silly: You celebrate a person who may have never actually existed as there is no physical evidence for his existence.
- You do this on the wrong day, he wasn't supposedly born on Dec. 25th.
- You do this involving the purchasing of gifts which is supposed to be special, despite the fact that Jesus would not have wanted you to wait until this special day to purchase gifts, but to live a life of giving.
- You do this by killing a tree, which Jesus also would not approve of at all.
- You blatantly engage in massive consumerist culture, and given that Jesus preached minimalism to a large degree, basically:

Christmas insults Jesus.

- August

[Ele'ill]

Meme can either be used to mean a phrase, picture or idea that is popular on the internet and used incessently (a good example of this is lolcats and 80% of 4chan) or a metaphor, as created by Richard Dawkins, for social ideas; a "mental gene" if you will (a good example of this is religion).


Also,

A meme (pronounced /miːm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#cite_note-0) comprises any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.

[Jazzratt]

Also,

A meme (pronounced /miːm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#cite_note-0) comprises any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.


or a metaphor, as created by Richard Dawkins, for social ideas; a "mental gene" if you will (a good example of this is religion).

:)

[Killfacer]

Christmas is just downright silly: You celebrate a person who may have never actually existed as there is no physical evidence for his existence.
- You do this on the wrong day, he wasn't supposedly born on Dec. 25th.
- You do this involving the purchasing of gifts which is supposed to be special, despite the fact that Jesus would not have wanted you to wait until this special day to purchase gifts, but to live a life of giving.
- You do this by killing a tree, which Jesus also would not approve of at all.
- You blatantly engage in massive consumerist culture, and given that Jesus preached minimalism to a large degree, basically:

Christmas insults Jesus.

- August


I don't understand. Firstly you're an atheist so "insulting" jesus clearly doesn't matter.

Are you telling me you do not enjoy christmas? Maybe when the revolution comes it won't happen anymore but personally i think its the best day of the year. Tearing open presents, watching tv and having a huge meal. Who cares if its consumerism? Having a go at christmas isn't going to stop consumerism so just bloody enjoy it.

[Killfacer]

Also,

A meme (pronounced /miːm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#cite_note-0) comprises any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus.

Virus? Meme? Contagious? sociosphere? propagate?

I think you meant: Snow, food, presents, fun and general well being!

[DesertShark]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus would be against any type of commercialization of Christmas. Any bible reader should know this, especially because

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,Matthew (21:10-13), Mark (11:15-17), Luke (19:41-46), and John (2:13-17) all talk about Jesus clearing out the temple. [I put the scripture identifying numbers in parentheses in case anyone wanted to look it up.]

Limiting one's giving to others to one or two days a year is laughable. If one were truly a giving person, it would be an everyday or almost everyday (some days you might just not want to be around people) occurrence. And by giving I don't mean (solely) in the commercial sense, there are many ways to give without giving any physical thing.

Disclaimer: I'm not religious in any way and I tend to avoid any kind of daily or other rituals. God or any other "higher power" does not exist. I'm not an atheist/agnostic/etc or any other 'religious' type label you want to place on me. I am however, decently read.

-DS

[Decolonize The Left]

I don't understand. Firstly you're an atheist so "insulting" jesus clearly doesn't matter.

Just because I'm an atheist means I'm not allowed to note the hypocrisy of Christians?


Are you telling me you do not enjoy christmas?

No. I don't enjoy Christmas - if it was meaningful in any fashion I might, but it's a sickening display of fat white consumerism.


Maybe when the revolution comes it won't happen anymore but personally i think its the best day of the year. Tearing open presents, watching tv and having a huge meal. Who cares if its consumerism? Having a go at christmas isn't going to stop consumerism so just bloody enjoy it.

Why don't you go spew your ignorant nonsense to the family of the man who was trampled to death by shoppers...

- August

[KC]

Christmas is just downright silly: You celebrate a person who may have never actually existed as there is no physical evidence for his existence.
- You do this on the wrong day, he wasn't supposedly born on Dec. 25th.
- You do this involving the purchasing of gifts which is supposed to be special, despite the fact that Jesus would not have wanted you to wait until this special day to purchase gifts, but to live a life of giving.
- You do this by killing a tree, which Jesus also would not approve of at all.
- You blatantly engage in massive consumerist culture, and given that Jesus preached minimalism to a large degree, basically:

Christmas insults Jesus.

Christmas for me isn't religious at all, obviously. I use it to spend time with family and friends, see people I haven't seen in a while, give and receive gifts and generally just have fun. I don't see why you're being so uptight.

[Killfacer]

Christmas for me isn't religious at all, obviously. I use it to spend time with family and friends, see people I haven't seen in a while, give and receive gifts and generally just have fun. I don't see why you're being so uptight.

This is what i was trying to say, but he/she put it better.

[butterfly]

The day itself isn't so bad, but anything before that i'd prefer to ignore.

[Decolonize The Left]

"The family man who was trampled to death by shoppers."

Shut up cretin.

:thumbdown: This type of pointless inane response does wonders for credibility of your arguments, did you know that?


Christmas for me isn't religious at all, obviously. I use it to spend time with family and friends, see people I haven't seen in a while, give and receive gifts and generally just have fun. I don't see why you're being so uptight.

Then why call is Christmas? If it's so secular and easy-going fun, why make it a religious holiday?

- August

[Killfacer]

Yeah your right, i just couldn't be bothered to write out a long reason why i disagreed with your last statement. I apologise.

But if your so comfortable with your athiesm and so sure that christmas is just a consumerist holiday for fat white people, whats the need to change it?

[Decolonize The Left]

But if your so comfortable with your athiesm and so sure that christmas is just a consumerist holiday for fat white people, whats the need to change it?

By this logic, what's the need to change anything?

We ought to change it because it's philosophically pointless, and materially destructive.

- August

[Killfacer]

You just want to change the name of something for no good reason. Like you say, it has become nothing to do with it's christian beggingings, why change it?

[KC]

Then why call is Christmas?

Because that's what it's called...


If it's so secular and easy-going fun, why make it a religious holiday?

"Christmas for me isn't religious at all"


We ought to change it because it's philosophically pointless, and materially destructive.

How?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Then why call is Christmas?

For the same reason I call a day of the week Thursday even though I don't worship Thor.


If it's so secular and easy-going fun, why make it a religious holiday?

It isn't, for me at least. I don't attend any church services or observe any religious rites.

[Decolonize The Left]

You just want to change the name of something for no good reason.

No. I'm actually not concerned with the name at all - I was just noting the absurdity of the whole situation.


Like you say, it has become nothing to do with it's christian beggingings, why change it?

When did I say that?


How?

Really? You need help figuring this one out?


For the same reason I call a day of the week Thursday even though I don't worship Thor.


But you see that this isn't analogous. For Thor isn't worshiped by millions of individuals - Jesus is.


It isn't, for me at least. I don't attend any church services or observe any religious rites.

Yes, that seems to be the general response from atheist/agnostics on this site. This response misses the point.

You don't have to be religious for the holiday to be a religious holiday. You can celebrate Kwanzaa if you want, it's not anymore secular just because you're taking part... likewise, Christmas is a religious holiday.

- August

[Killfacer]

So whats your problem with it then?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

But you see that this isn't analogous. For Thor isn't worshiped by millions of individuals - Jesus is.

Why does that matter? Christmas and it's traditions aren't even Christian in the first place - it's a pre-Christian celebration that's been re-branded and the nominally Christian stuff (Nativity scenes, church services etc) that has been tacked on aren't the most well-observed aspects of it, compared to putting up Christmas trees and the practice of eating large amounts of food/drinking heavily, which are pagan/Roman in origin (Yule and Saturnalia, anyone?).

I helped to put up the tree in the place where I live, yet I'm not a pagan, and I intend to eat and drink heavily, in spite of not subscribing to Roman polytheism. What's wrong with that?


Yes, that seems to be the general response from atheist/agnostics on this site. This response misses the point.

You don't have to be religious for the holiday to be a religious holiday. You can celebrate Kwanzaa if you want, it's not anymore secular just because you're taking part... likewise, Christmas is a religious holiday.Only if you celebrate it for religious reasons. I don't. I celebrate Christmas because it's an enjoyable and uplifting activity to participate in when the days are short and dull and the nights long and dark. I suspect that's partly why winter solstice celebrations arose in the first place.

[butterfly]

It get's really hot down here so we eat salad and gather round the airconditioner:cool:

[Dust Bunnies]

Christmas is a great time for those ABC movie dramas though, some of them have such bad story/acting that it's funny.

[Bud Struggle]

Only if you celebrate it for religious reasons. I don't. I celebrate Christmas because it's an enjoyable and uplifting activity to participate in when the days are short and dull and the nights long and dark. I suspect that's partly why winter solstice celebrations arose in the first place.

Good answer. You should never not take the opportunity to celebrate life for any reason. It doesn't have to be YOUR reason. If people around you are happy and are celebrating a festival--enjoy.

I can't tell you how many times I've been traveling and found myself somewhere in the world and people people were throwing a party of some sort and me and the little woman joined in--much to our delight. Did I (fully) understand what frstival was about? No. Did I care? No. But did I enjoy myself and did people enjoy my presence there?

Living a good life in this world is much less about what we personally believe in our hearts and minds and more about how we treat and interreact with our sisters and brothers.

Celebrate.