There will never be a true revolution - because the left wil

[apathy maybe]

I have been reading various things lately, inlcuding things on the Spainish Cival War, and I think that the left is maybe to divided to seriously gain a proper government in many countries. i.e. a government that isn't totalaterian. e.g. Chile before the yanks encouraged the military coup (1973).
Spain and the f. USSR are the main examples that I can think of.
what are all your thoughts on this.

[redstar2000]

a/m, I think it's really hard to say. A lot depends on the circumstances in each country, what the options of unity and disunity involve, who the personalities are...and even the nature of our enemies.

Since the U.S. imperialist aggression against Iraq began, I've noticed a sharp decline in inter-left polemics. Everyone seems to realize, at least for the moment, that this is no time to fuck around...the need to unite against U.S. imperialism is overwhelming.

At some future point, that might be the case in a revolutionary situation. Regardless of the disputes, the need will be obvious and the peril of disunity overwhelming.

Or as an old bourgeois revolutionary put it: we must hang together or we most assuredly shall hang separately.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:35 am on Mar. 27, 2003)

[Chiak47]

Red,

Ahh red,The smell of greed is all around you Red.
Your a miserable old wash-up who pissed all his hopes and dreams away and you know it.You have too much junk in your closet and your future is bleak.You know that also.

You used to help people till they fucked you over and left you with nothing.Now your with them.Fruitless.With a old memory and some sweat bleached b/w pictures.Thats all you have left from the old days.Sad case really.Holding onto a dream and short changed by old age.
Then you realised your dreams of the utopia will never happen here cause there is too much greed.People have the venom in them.They have too many want's here for any real change to take place.You know this...

Red,everybody you gave your heart too,fucked you over.Ahh that Spanish broad in cuba-so fine...So smooth.Whh you can still smell her hair.The chance to catch a sight of great revolutionaries but they paid you no mind.The nights in Havana that old city-so pure- so broken.The fresh smell of revolution.Ah the Wonderfull times.

The trip home, Red.I bet that trip home was a hard one.Knowing you have too come back to the pits of the everyday grind.In cuba you were the one that all came to see.Like a freak show if you will.Everybody wanted to see the product of the defeated's face.I say that red,cause thats how they looked at you.You could see it in thier eye's.As much as you wan't to claim your part of them-you know you can't.You know you did not earn that right.That seperates you.Your not the same as them.

That burns you,red.That tears you up at night.All alone with the sound of the fast city in the background.The sound of money all around.

Back too cuba.
I bet you can still smell the tropics.The vast jungles.The dirt roads.Easy life huh red.I bet that was a transition.Coming from that back to the states.Now you sit in this cold hell.What do you smell now red?Greed?Poverty?

The class system this country has is screwed-in your mind.
You were always looking for the easy way to the top are you not, Red?
Now you realise you are stuck with the very same people you once wanted to help.
You realise poverty pulls all thats close too it down.
Why can't we all be poor,then there would be no temptation-no greed.
But red,you know better than that red.Humans have always been greedy including your fabled martyrs.

Think Red,Are those dreams you held onto really worth one more day... .22 to the temple red.Nobody will think anything bad.It will all end.

Thank you,
Nerves

[synthesis]

What the fuck are you on about?

[Chiak47]

Dyealready,

I'm "on about" nothing.This is Red's fight..Let the old man answer..

Thanks for your concern,
RoughRider

[Chiak47]

http://www.suicidemethods.net/pix/couch.jpg

Red,You still with me?

Concerned US citizen/loyalist

[redstar2000]

Chiak47, I agree that my future is "bleak"...getting old really sucks!

Sometimes, I really do think that the human species is, indeed, descending into a "new dark age"...especially in the United States...the fortress of world reaction.

And yet...maybe not. I look at the world-wide reaction to U.S. aggression and think...maybe you barbarians haven't won. Maybe the "natural" pessimism of old age is deceiving...and people are much more rebellious than I thought.

And I look at the people on this board, all much younger than me. Did you know that before I got this computer and went on line, I thought I might very well be the last living communust? (How's that for egotism?)

Now I know better, a lot better. Whatever may happen to me, the struggle for liberation from capitalist wage-slavery will continue. Indeed, things are picking up quite a bit...and there is the faint but real possibility that even I may live to see a new generation of communist revolutions.

Actually, Chiak47, I feel younger today than I have in decades!

I confess I am puzzled by your repetition of the word "greed"...my life has never been one of lust for possessions. Perhaps you intend to say that I have been motivated by "greed for power." But that makes no sense--like nearly everything you say. If power were my motivation, why didn't I go into capitalist politics? I could have made real money too! I could easily have done so; I'm ashamed to admit it now, but I actually campaigned for that war criminal John F. Kennedy...talk about youthful mistakes! Further "progress" in that direction was certainly possible.

But JFK invaded Cuba...and gave me my first insight into U.S. imperialism.

You seem to think that I spend quite a bit of time being nostalgic for the Cuba of 1964...when actually I hardly ever think about it except when people bring it up. It was a glorious adventure for a young kid from the mid-west who'd never been further away from home than California. And the Cubans were indeed very nice to all of us.

But you miss the mark completely (as you usually do) concerning the trip home. It was a long one; Cubana Airlines, Havana to Gander (Canada) to Shannon (Ireland) to Prague; then Air France from Prague to Paris; finally Pan Am (remember them?), Paris to New York.

We were in great spirits...because we were going to do in America what the Cubans had done in Cuba. We spent a lot of time talking, and a lot of time drinking, singing revolutionary songs, making a great nuisance of ourselves to the other passengers.

And when we got to New York, we were "one-day-heroes"...people came up to us on the streets and congratulated us, we were on tv and in the headlines. Things were on the move and we were part of it; in December of that very year, I was present at an SDS meeting that planned the first march on Washington against the war in Vietnam. We hoped for maybe two or three thousand...25,000 kids showed up!

You know what happened after that. :cheesy:

You appear to be under the impression that I am suicidal or "ought" to be. That's strange...I'd certainly consider it pretty seriously if I found myself in your shoes.

Being a slave to religion, patriotism and capitalism sounds about as self-degrading as it's possible for a person to be this side of serfdom. If anyone is in a hopeless position, you seem to fit that description much more than I. No matter how awful the American Reich becomes, I need endure no more than a decade or two at most. You still have most of your "life" to "live"...face down in a barrel of shit! Maybe you should give some thought to the advice you gave me.

Let me answer your trivial questions. Right now, I'm smelling a chicken baking in the oven. I'm hearing the sounds of city traffic. The cat is up on the kitchen counter staring at me intently. I'm smoking a cigarette (I do miss those wonderful Cuban cigarettes) and sipping from a cup of coffee laced with a little whisky.

And, unlike you, I look back with a certain amount of satisfaction...I never called any man "master".

:cool:

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:47 am on Mar. 28, 2003
Chiak47, I agree that my future is "bleak"...getting old really sucks!

Sometimes, I really do think that the human species is, indeed, descending into a "new dark age"...especially in the United States...the fortress of world reaction.

And yet...maybe not. I look at the world-wide reaction to U.S. aggression and think...maybe you barbarians haven't won. Maybe the "natural" pessimism of old age is deceiving...and people are much more rebellious than I thought.

And I look at the people on this board, all much younger than me. Did you know that before I got this computer and went on line, I thought I might very well be the last living communust? (How's that for egotism?)

Now I know better, a lot better. Whatever may happen to me, the struggle for liberation from capitalist wage-slavery will continue. Indeed, things are picking up quite a bit...and there is the faint but real possibility that even I may live to see a new generation of communist revolutions.

Actually, Chiak47, I feel younger today than I have in decades!

I confess I am puzzled by your repetition of the word "greed"...my life has never been one of lust for possessions. Perhaps you intend to say that I have been motivated by "greed for power." But that makes no sense--like nearly everything you say. If power were my motivation, why didn't I go into capitalist politics? I could have made real money too! I could easily have done so; I'm ashamed to admit it now, but I actually campaigned for that war criminal John F. Kennedy...talk about youthful mistakes! Further "progress" in that direction was certainly possible.

But JFK invaded Cuba...and gave me my first insight into U.S. imperialism.

You seem to think that I spend quite a bit of time being nostalgic for the Cuba of 1964...when actually I hardly ever think about it except when people bring it up. It was a glorious adventure for a young kid from the mid-west who'd never been further away from home than California. And the Cubans were indeed very nice to all of us.

But you miss the mark completely (as you usually do) concerning the trip home. It was a long one; Cubana Airlines, Havana to Gander (Canada) to Shannon (Ireland) to Prague; then Air France from Prague to Paris; finally Pan Am (remember them?), Paris to New York.

We were in great spirits...because we were going to do in America what the Cubans had done in Cuba. We spent a lot of time talking, and a lot of time drinking, singing revolutionary songs, making a great nuisance of ourselves to the other passengers.

And when we got to New York, we were "one-day-heroes"...people came up to us on the streets and congratulated us, we were on tv and in the headlines. Things were on the move and we were part of it; in December of that very year, I was present at an SDS meeting that planned the first march on Washington against the war in Vietnam. We hoped for maybe two or three thousand...25,000 kids showed up!

You know what happened after that. :cheesy:

You appear to be under the impression that I am suicidal or "ought" to be. That's strange...I'd certainly consider it pretty seriously if I found myself in your shoes.

Being a slave to religion, patriotism and capitalism sounds about as self-degrading as it's possible for a person to be this side of serfdom. If anyone is in a hopeless position, you seem to fit that description much more than I. No matter how awful the American Reich becomes, I need endure no more than a decade or two at most. You still have most of your "life" to "live"...face down in a barrel of shit! Maybe you should give some thought to the advice you gave me.

Let me answer your trivial questions. Right now, I'm smelling a chicken baking in the oven. I'm hearing the sounds of city traffic. The cat is up on the kitchen counter staring at me intently. I'm smoking a cigarette (I do miss those wonderful Cuban cigarettes) and sipping from a cup of coffee laced with a little whisky.

And, unlike you, I look back with a certain amount of satisfaction...I never called any man "master".

:cool:



You know what Redstar? What I'm about to say has no relevance to the thread--- but every time I read your posts I think they are absolutely WONDERFUL. You have encyclopedic intelligence, the right kind of anger, humor, and you're a [b]revolutionary/b]. You are clear as crystal about your beliefs and you back it up with evidence. You don't make things too personal even if you want to make a "jab." The stuff that guy just said to you was mean-spirited and I'm compelled to defend you right now.

I know this is no dating service---and everyone in these chat conversations are serious about theory, politics, Che, etc.---and I am serious too. But I swear if you were in my city I would want to come over and drink coffee and whiskey with you. And Cuban cigars if I could get a hold of some.

And Chiak47--- I'm 32! So Redstar is not as old as you might think. There is enough war and ugliness going on in the world. The least we can do is not war with each other.

Sorry about the mush, Redstar. I just couldn't help it.

YMj:biggrin:

[redstar2000]

You praise me much more than I deserve, YerbaMateJ, but I'd certainly extend to you a warm welcome. :biggrin:

:cool:

[canikickit]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 10:01 pm on Mar. 27, 2003
What the fuck are you on about?


I read that about three times, and every time I burst into a heart chuckle. I still am actually. Thanks, man.

[Chiak47]

.

(Edited by Chiak47 at 6:11 am on Mar. 28, 2003)

[canikickit]

That's what you should always be like, Eric. Except for the snide and dismissive remarks about being a hippy.

For the record, I don't think you're that bad of a guy. Although you have said some absolutely terrible stuff, which cannot be written off to attempts at humour.

[Chiak47]

.

(Edited by Chiak47 at 6:11 am on Mar. 28, 2003)

[apathy maybe]

I had hoped that by putting this thread in this forum rather then another that I would get some decent debate between the left and the right. My idea was that, the communists don't like the socialists and the Labour left. the Labour left don't like the anachists. etc.
Now this may or may not be true I was hoping that by the time this thread had died, I could have had a better idea of what is going on. Please give up your thoughts.

[kelvin90701]

Communist revolutionaries by their very nature are non-conformist. When you want to establish a stable government, the first thing you do shoot the revolutionaires in the back of the head, and burry them in a secret ditch. Then you take away all the guns the revolutionaries used to fight the revolution. Or else you don't have a chance to establish a stable government.

[notyetacommie]

The first thing you do, actually, is UNITE all the left-wingers, as Russian communists did in 1917. This is destined to bring you victory. Next thing to do is to make a representative government, which they also did. Their mistake, really, was to oppress the anarchist majority and social-revolutionaries once they turned out to be in minority. This was a mistake, and, funnily enough, I still believe people CAN learn from mistakes.
There IS something that unites left-wingers. The differencies can be dealt with and worked out. What should scare you most, kelvin, is that those people are destined to win. They have much more in common than you think. There were cooperatives and powerful trade unions in USSR - something that anarcho-syndicalists should like. There was even private enterprise in the form of "dachas"- personal lands where people could grow whatever they liked to sell it on the market or to comsume in the family. What I am trying to say is that there can be and will be peaceful coexistence of different social ideas within a socialist country. I think that even some capitalist features will be allowed to exist as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others (I mean private enterprise where the hired/waged labour will be prohibited).

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from notyetacommie on 11:29 am on Mar. 28, 2003
The first thing you do, actually, is UNITE all the left-wingers,


Unite those non-comformist? Hmmmm. I think it would be easier to dig a big ditch. Historically what has happened? Bullets to the back of the head and secret ditches are extreme. How about a gulag? They use those even for loyal people.

[Hampton]

Or establish COINTELPRO.

[apathy maybe]

This is more like it. But what kelvin90701 is saying seems to me to have some merit. it is hard to unite left-wingers because some want a government of one sort and others want a government of another sort, while more don't want a government at all. the different opinions seem to conflict. unlike on the other side (right) where the various groups seem to help each other even though the various ideologies seem to be opposing because they all want to suppress the masses (flame put here to encourage replies)