cuba

[reddevil]

should trotskyists and anti-stalinists support the regime?
pros:
1) strong acheivements in education, healthcare and the reduction of gang trouble and corruption, especially in contrast to other countries on the continent.
2) one of the most progressive countries in the world in regards to female leadership
3) strong domestic popularity
4) serious belivers in socialism in contrast to the bourgeouisse rulers in laos, vietnam and the "people's" republic of china
5) resistance to american imperialism, champion of the causes of the developing world in the form of military, morale and economic assistance to liberation movements in angola, nicaragua, bolivia and the congo among others aswell as fellow revolutionaries in ecuador, bolivia and venezuela

cons:
1) the loss of much social and political freedom, including the repression of homosexuals and labour unions
2) support for the "soviet" union
3) widespread use of the death penalty, including show trials and mass shootings after the revolution. it is not my view that these counterrevolutionaries were innocent, however i can't condone such harsh and crude operations. torture and assasination undoubtedly take place but it is difficult to say whether or not this has the direct support of the regime.
4) the centralisation of power in the hands of the bureaucracy which leads to abuse and eventually counterrevolution

[Incendiarism]

I assume most trotskyist's positions do offer critical support for cuba. Whatever gains cuba has achieved are worthy of being protected from any potential capitalist restoration.

[Magdalen]

cons:
1) the loss of much social and political freedom, including the repression of homosexuals and labour unions
2) support for the "soviet" union
3) widespread use of the death penalty, including show trials and mass shootings after the revolution. it is not my view that these counterrevolutionaries were innocent, however i can't condone such harsh and crude operations. torture and assasination undoubtedly take place but it is difficult to say whether or not this has the direct support of the regime.
4) the centralisation of power in the hands of the bureaucracy which leads to abuse and eventually counterrevolution

1) Much of the information which claims Cuba is repressive against homosexuals is based on actions taken under pre-revolutionary laws which were still in force the 1960s and 1970s, a time when homosexuality was illegal in many western countries too. These laws were struck down by the Cuban Supreme Court in 1979, and Cuba was among the first countries in the world to illegalise discrimination against homosexuals in public life. The National Assembly is expected to lift restrictions on gay marriage before the end of this year. See the 1996 film Gay Cuba for more information on this issue.

Cuba has an established and independent union structure under the CTC (the Cuban equivalent of the TUC) These unions cover 18 different trades or sectors of work, e.g. construction, agriculture and tourism. They operate at branch, regional and national level, with very high levels of participation compared to British unions. (Some 97% of Cubans overall are trade unionists, although this varies by trade)

2) Cuba supported the Soviet Union where it pursued a socialist and anti-imperialist policy, and was not afraid to deviate from the Soviet line where it did not. (Especially after the reforms of Gorbachev, although no Soviet leader was immune from Cuban criticism where it was due, see Fidel Castro's My Life for more in-depth commentary.)

3) The death penalty has not been used in Cuba for over five years, when it was used against the US-backed hijackers of Cuban domestic airliners. A permanent moratorium was put in place earlier this year. Their were no show-trials and mass executions after the revolution. Batista regime members were put on trial in an open court, and those who were found guilty received a fair punishment. Errol Flynn's The Cuban Story gives some unique footage of these trials.

4) Cuba's system is one of the most decentralised in world history, with the vast majority of decisions being taken at a local or municipal level. Although bureaucratic power has become a concern, this has been recognised in Cuban society, and efforts are being to prevent a Soviet-style scenario by reducing the power of the bureaucrats and ensure control remains in the hands of the people.

[reddevil]

thank you for the contribution. i can't believe i fell for all that propaganda

[Abluegreen7]

RedDevil doesnt it feel better being freed from the lies of Imperialist/Capitalist murderers?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

1) the loss of much social and political freedom, including the repression of homosexuals and labour unionsI responded to the claim about the repression of homosexuals in another thread:

"What happened early on was this: Cuba was under attack. The whole country had to be mobilized to defend it. The revolution was very new and there was still a strong element of machismo among most of the men. These men rejected the idea of homosexuals serving in the military. So they, along with religious objectors and people who didn't have the education to serve in the military were sent to Unidades Militares de Ayuda a la Produccion (UMAPS) in which they aided in other ways. The UMPAS only existed about three years.

"There were some prejudices against homosexuals in the UMAPS. Fidel visited one in Camaguey and saw such things, and called for a review of the situation.

"There is still prejudice against homosexuals among sectors of Cuban society. That's a product of the history of Cuba and its development. Do you expect a revolution to immediately wipe out all prejudices and superstition?

""...I'm not going to defend myself against all that -- the part of the responsibility that I bear, I accept. I certainly had other ideas with respect to that problem. I had opinions, and for my part I instinctively opposed, and had always opposed, any abuse, any discrimination, because that society which had been based on injustice was saturated with prejudice. Homosexuals were most certainly the victims of discrimination. In other places much more than here, but they certainly were, in Cuba, victims of discrimination. Today a much more civilized, more educated population is gradually overcoming those prejudices." - Fidel

"The point is that the revolution never encouraged any such thing, and in fact actively fought against it."

As for the repression of "trade unions," it's even more bogus. Almost every Cuban belongs to a union. Those "independent trade unions" are all about counterrevolution. See: Confessions of an "independent trade unionist" in Cuba (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=56)


2) support for the "soviet" unionCuba was fully correct in pursuing friendly relations with the USSR. The USSR bought Cuban sugar at above-world-market prices. Cuba's biggest mistake was thinking that the USSR would exist forever.

Cuba was no puppet of the USSR. Cuba is internationalist. There were times when Cuba was fighting for world revolution against the wishes of the bureaucrats in the USSR. See Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976 by Piero Gleijeses for such stories.


3) widespread use of the death penalty, including show trials and mass shootings after the revolution. it is not my view that these counterrevolutionaries were innocent, however i can't condone such harsh and crude operations. White terror is a lot worse. Batista and his henchmen carried out horrific crimes against thousands of people, including torture, assassination and executions.

A revolution is bloody and harsh. It's not something nice and polite. We're talking about uprooting the social order and overthrowing the rulers and building an entirely new kind of society.

The Cuban revolution was actually relatively low on the level of violence in comparison to others..


torture and assasination undoubtedly take place but it is difficult to say whether or not this has the direct support of the regime.Neither of these things takes place in Cuba. This has been the case since the revolution started in the mountains.


4) the centralisation of power in the hands of the bureaucracy which leads to abuse and eventually counterrevolutionThat's not true. You can find info on Cuba's system here: http://cubatruth.org

[spice756]

The death penalty has not been used in Cuba for over five years, when it was used against the US-backed hijackers of Cuban domestic airliners. A permanent moratorium was put in place earlier this year. Their were no show-trials and mass executions after the revolution. Batista regime members were put on trial in an open court, and those who were found guilty received a fair punishment. Errol Flynn's The Cuban Story gives some unique footage of these trials.



I believe the death penalty in Cuba is only for murder.

Has I believe every work place in Cuba store ,factory ,farm and offices have a council like a Union where people can debate stuff like pay and working hours so on.

[Comrade B]

Cuba went through a period of executing former political leaders, but when human rights groups demanded they stop, they obeyed. I critically support Cuba. I may occasionally make a statement like "Long live Fidel" but mostly only in company of anti-Castro supporters

[Yehuda Stern]

No. Revolutionaries are duty bound to never support politically any regime which represents an alien class. Inasmuch as the Castro regime is a bourgeois regime, Trotskyists cannot give it any political support. However, under conditions of a military attack by imperialism on the regime, revolutionaries must support the regime's victory.

[Hiero]

Another note on the trade unions. A law on labour can't be passed in the National Assembly without trade union approval.

And really that is what the Bourgeoisie press mean by dictatorship, dictatorship of labour.


Inasmuch as the Castro regime is a bourgeois regime, Trotskyists cannot give it any political support. However, under conditions of a military attack by imperialism on the regime, revolutionaries must support the regime's victory.

Oh no not the Trotskyists!

[Goose]

No. Revolutionaries are duty bound to never support politically any regime which represents an alien class. Inasmuch as the Castro regime is a bourgeois regime, Trotskyists cannot give it any political support.


(and one sentence later.....) Revolutionaries must support the (Castro) regime's victory.

Am I the only one to spot a non-sequitur here?

Peronally I love Cuba, but the points I would have made re: Homosexuality, torture, bureaucracy etc. have pretty much been covered.

Read 'My Life'.

[KurtFF8]

No. Revolutionaries are duty bound to never support politically any regime which represents an alien class. Inasmuch as the Castro regime is a bourgeois regime, Trotskyists cannot give it any political support. However, under conditions of a military attack by imperialism on the regime, revolutionaries must support the regime's victory.

So you support continually perpetuating propaganda and eroding support for the regime so that an imperialistic attack is more likely, but when that attack happens, you would oppose the attack?

[Elliot_R]

How is Cuba a good country? They are poor, living under a dictatorship. If you see images of Cuba and compare that to the US, who is living a better quality of life? I thought there was attack on religion, as well, no? I can assure you that not all people are equal there. They treat tourists really good, but their own people like crap. Is this equality? So you can be certain, also, that Castro is not living the same quality of life as the people, is he?

[Abluegreen7]

Elliot dont insult Castro.

Castro is easily a blessing to the Cuban people.

Did Castro rant and Rave when the Imperialist state known as America tortured people in Guantanomo Bay?

He did not. I suppose you think Cuba was free under "Batista". The man who allowed the Mafia freely into Havana.

Long live Fidel! Viva Cuba.

[Goose]

How is Cuba a good country? They are poor, living under a dictatorship. If you see images of Cuba and compare that to the US, who is living a better quality of life? I thought there was attack on religion, as well, no? I can assure you that not all people are equal there. They treat tourists really good, but their own people like crap. Is this equality? So you can be certain, also, that Castro is not living the same quality of life as the people, is he?

God I wish I knew how to quote.

They are poor - so is 95% of the world

Living under a dictatorship - in what sense is the most transparent democracy in the world a dictatorship? I accept it isn't perfect, but compared to (pick alternative country here...)

If you see images of the obese, ill educated, warmongering US, who is living a better life?

People in your world are presumably equal?

They treat tourists better because due to the allowances of world trade agreements, insisted on by the filth in the US, money from outside the country, in terms of capital expenditure, is not allowed to go on domestic projects or, strictly speaking, the US is allowed to invade.

[Abluegreen7]

Compare Cuba to South Africa. Compare Cuba to Afganistan. Conpare Cuba to the Congo.

[Goose]

Errr, not sure why you're arguing with me here, but ok...

South Africa - racism etc. Cuba not.

Afghanist - armed alternatively by multiple European empires, then the Uk/US/USSR, keeps fighting whichever one isn't arming it currently. Chessboard of the East and all that. Can't honestly see the Cuban connection.

Congo - yes, Cuba is equally lucky to have such mineral reserves. You're right. Shit. Cuba was bad all along. Far from trying to just get on with life, I assume Fidel is sitting on diamond reserves worth at least 20p.

[Elliot_R]

Like other poor countries, the leader is wealthy and the rest of the people suffer. Do you appauld Castro's oppression, yes? Their healthcare is shit, too, it is all dirty and they lack technology. They use cars from the 1950s. In the US, dont they have a choice? But in Cuba, that is not the case.

[Goose]

Like other poor countries, the leader is wealthy and the rest of the people suffer. Do you appauld Castro's oppression, yes? Their healthcare is shit, too, it is all dirty and they lack technology. They use cars from the 1950s. In the US, dont they have a choice? But in Cuba, that is not the case.


Could you say that in English, and I'll respond...?

[Elliot_R]

What do you not understand?

[RedHal]

No. Revolutionaries are duty bound to never support politically any regime which represents an alien class. Inasmuch as the Castro regime is a bourgeois regime, Trotskyists cannot give it any political support. However, under conditions of a military attack by imperialism on the regime, revolutionaries must support the regime's victory.

if we take your line, when the invasion happens, there won't be much support for cuba at all, the masses would have been so brainwashed by decades of imperialist propaganda because "true revolutionaries" should not give Cuba political support. Unless of course you think you and your small group of "true revolutionaries" can defend Cuba alone without the masses.

[Abluegreen7]

Errr, not sure why you're arguing with me here, but ok...

South Africa - racism etc. Cuba not.

Afghanist - armed alternatively by multiple European empires, then the Uk/US/USSR, keeps fighting whichever one isn't arming it currently. Chessboard of the East and all that. Can't honestly see the Cuban connection.

Congo - yes, Cuba is equally lucky to have such mineral reserves. You're right. Shit. Cuba was bad all along. Far from trying to just get on with life, I assume Fidel is sitting on diamond reserves worth at least 20p.

I was actually going on quality of life.

[RedHal]

Like other poor countries, the leader is wealthy and the rest of the people suffer. Do you appauld Castro's oppression, yes? Their healthcare is shit, too, it is all dirty and they lack technology. They use cars from the 1950s. In the US, dont they have a choice? But in Cuba, that is not the case.

this is typical right wing ranting, in which case you should be restricted. If you're a leftist, you are buying into all the US propaganda, and you should do more research before spewing such crap

[Abluegreen7]

Are cars relevant to living? No. Does my life depend on having a brand new car? No.

Cars are a luxury item. Have you been to Latin America before. I was in Costa Rica. There are people living in homes smaller than trailers. One roomed homes. This country is Capitalist. No air conditioning at all.

So why are Latin American countries just as poor if Capitalism is so good?
Care to explain this.

[Goose]

What do you not understand?

Roughly, and I don't know how to quote everything you say, so I'll have to use your rough quotes and paraphrase:

Your spelling (no need for quotes there)

Your assertion that Cuba's 'healthcare is poor' (do feel free to back up!)

Dem poor oppressed Cuban types all drive round in 50s cars - them 50's cars rock, and I'll bet you American ****s would love one

In the US, they don't have a choice - what on earth are you on about now my child? This is where the total lack of understanding kicks in. I thought you were saying Cuba didn't get a choice, but you've excelled yourself. I do know you don't get healthcare in the US - is this the choice we mean? No free healthcare, 'filthy and lacking technology' or otherwise. You tit.

[Elliot_R]

OK, so in CUba, all peoples are equal, is that it? They have good healthcare and they drive cars like they do in any developed country, yes? And they have freedom of religion? They have freedom to flee, yes? Is this what I am missing....?

[Abluegreen7]

The fact of the matter is the lack of culture in America makes most Americans look down on Cubans and majority of the third world due to the lack of wealth.

You are no better than the third world. Do not denounce a country due to the fact they drive older cars.

[Elliot_R]

I dont say capitalism is good. Goose, why dont you go to the real cuba dot com (I cant post links). That shows their "good" healthcare. You dont need to refer to me as "my child", that kind of patrionizing shit does no good. I am probably older than you anyways. You must also know that people DO get good healthcare in the US if they can pay for it. In Cuba, it is all the same quality...and that's not good!

[Abluegreen7]

Elliot why dont we compare Cuban health care to most South American countries.

[Elliot_R]

Perhaps we look down on a country not by wealth but by terrible leadership? Why not Castro share his wealth...and treat his people good?

[Abluegreen7]

Perhaps we look down on a country not by wealth but by terrible leadership? Why not Castro share his wealth...and treat his people good?

Castro does not keep his post as leader on his own. He depends on the Cuban People to keep him in power or there would have been a Coup a long time ago.

[Elliot_R]

Tell me a good country of South America that makes comparison towards Cuba, now. Why is it worse?

[Abluegreen7]

I never labeled South America worse. I see you have a very Republican view on Cuba though.

What you really dont understand is the simple fact that Castro does not keep power by himself. This power depends on the Cuban people.

[Goose]

. Goose, why dont you go to the real cuba dot com (I cant post links). That shows their "good" healthcare. You dont need to refer to me as "my child", that kind of patrionizing shit does no good. I am probably older than you anyways. You must also know that people DO get good healthcare in the US if they can pay for it. In Cuba, it is all the same quality...and that's not good!

Site - been there. Propaganda. Full of shit. I've also been to the real Cuba. No dot com - it's actually a place, you know? Very different to the shit you want me to read. And I'd only gained 7 experience points and collected 3 forms of magma from 'iwouldliketogotocubatheroleplayinggame.com' last time i was there.

My child - you talk like one, possibly one from the Young Conservatives conference circa 1987 when Thatcherism was at its height. I doubt you're older than me (though I'd love to think you were, cos one thing I like about the right wing kids kicking around these days is that they're all thick. If you were about to prove that even the ones that took over my country when I was a kid (ie. many years ago for those without a basic grasp of tenses)) were equally thick and less calculating than I thought, then I can just put it down to a quirk of history).

What was your other worthless comment? Gonna have to scroll up....

Oh yeah = people in the US get good healthcare if they pay for it..... Errr. Shall I kill you now, or leave it to others?

[Elliot_R]

Castro keeps all the power to himself. That is what dictatorship is.

[Abluegreen7]

Of course it is. But look at it this way. He is one man. The people defend him.

If the people were sick of Castro they would have ridden themselves of him long ago.

[Goose]

Castro keeps all the power to himself. That is what dictatorship is.


Castro's retired you prick. Jesus if you're going to bore me, will you at least bore me with something relevant?

[Elliot_R]

Ya, most adults are not as arrogant as you, yes? You haven't explained why Cuba's heathcare is better than the that in US. But you just knock my evidence and claim it is propoganda because you want much to believe Cuba is that socialist utopia, yes?

[Abluegreen7]

Goose I feel our website has been invaded by a conservative.

[Elliot_R]

No his brother is leader now. It very relavent, because dictatorships are rarely in the interest of the people. If you're bored, maybe you can leave instead of pretending that you know everything?

[Abluegreen7]

But you miss the fact that dictatorships are held up by the people. The people are the ones who keep the dictatorship working.

[Elliot_R]

No they just purge dissenents. I dont think many supported Stalin but he just purged them.

[Abluegreen7]

Did Stalin purge or did his people?
Did Stalin personally purge everyone he hated alone?

Or did he have some help with this task?

I myself dont think he personally walked up to everyone and purged them solely he had help.

[Elliot_R]

Yeah he had the NKVD act out his order's, probably like in Cuba.

[Abluegreen7]

Fidel is no Stalin.

That exposes the fact that the people keep the dictator in charge.

[Elliot_R]

No because if they defied orders they get purged themselves and high-ranking officals dont speak for the general public.

[Abluegreen7]

Did you miss the fact who does the purging?

If it werent for people these men cannot have power.

[Elliot_R]

I dont understand, the people have no power.

[Goose]

Ya, most adults are not as arrogant as you, yes? You haven't explained why Cuba's heathcare is better than the that in US. But you just knock my evidence and claim it is propoganda because you want much to believe Cuba is that socialist utopia, yes?

No his brother is leader now. It very relavent, because dictatorships are rarely in the interest of the people. If you're bored, maybe you can leave instead of pretending that you know everything?

(edit: well done for getting your own quote edited before i replied though, but I still know more than you, and am arrogant ;))

Fundamentally, compared to you, I know pretty much everything. In a world populated by intelligent people I wouldn't be so far ahead of you, but i don't envisage finding you there in that world.

I believe a very middle of the road democrat called Michael moore made a documentary comparing your health care system to Cuba's sonny meladio.

Two simple reasons Cuba's healthcare is better than yours (I'm assuming you're American, or at least USian, as I wouldn't want to tar my Venezualan/Canadian/Bolivian/etc brothers with the same brush):

1) It's free to everyone (not 'if you can pay it's great')
2) Thanks to your great country's embargo on pharmaceuticals (declared illegal by the UN, incidentally, but you don't really do the UN do you?) it has had to rely on prevention rather than cure. You are aware that after Canada, Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate and the longest life expeectancy in the whole of North/South and Carribean America? Though I assume your own country's mortality rate is affected by ignorant, ill educated (oh - they do education too) little shits like you getting aggressive and running round shooting people on an hourly basis.

[Abluegreen7]

I dont understand, the people have no power.

Yes the people have no power but Fidel isnt a Stalinist at all. Fidel is the peoples leader.

The point was if it werent for the people this cycle would never happen.

BTW Rauls in charge now.

I would take a bullet for Fidel though.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

How is Cuba a good country?I don't know about "good" and "bad" countries.

I know that Cuba is a socialist country.


They are poor,Compare Cuba's poverty to other countries: http://cubatruth.org/poverty.html


living under a dictatorship. So are you. The difference is people in Cuba live under the "dictatorship" of the working class, while you live under the "dictatorship" of the capitalist class. That's why in Cuba society is organized to meet human need while where you live it's organized to increase the profit of a filthy rich elite.

If you think "democracy" means going in a booth every few years to decide which representative of the capitalist class will administer their state, think again.

In Cuba workers and farmers select their own representatives to administer their state. Those representatives receive either the same pay as the average worker, or no pay at all (they continue working in their regular jobs). They are subject to recall at all times and they meet with those they represent on a regular basis. Workers discuss and implement plans in their workplaces and through their unions. Women and youths discuss and implements plans in their mass organizations. That's real democracy.


If you see images of Cuba and compare that to the US, who is living a better quality of life? If you see images of every country in Latin America, Africa and Asia (baring arguably Japan) and the U.S., who is living a better quality of life?

Cuba is a small former colony that is blockaded by the most powerful country in the history of the world (which is why they have to drive the cars from the 50's that you cry about). It is poor.. so is every other country in Latin America and Africa. Still, it surpasses all of those countries in every social measure. See the Cuba Truth Project (http://www.cubatruth.org) for a comparison. Cuba even surpasses some rich imperialist countries in a few measures.

In Cuba everyone has access to completely free healthcare and education. Cuba even opens its hospitals and universities to people from poor areas around the world. You claim Cuba's healthcare system is poor, but everyone who has ever investigated says otherwise (including the imperialist-dominated United Nations and the pro-capitalist right-wing Wall Street Journal).


I thought there was attack on religion, as well, no?No. Religious people are even free to join the Communist Party.


I can assure you that not all people are equal there. Cuba is not communist. It is building socialism in very difficult conditions. No one ever claimed there was legalistic equality in Cuba (where every person has the exact same amount of everything). Still, the level is inequality is infinitely lower than every other country in the Western Hemisphere.


They treat tourists really good, but their own people like crap. Is this equality?I'm not even sure what this means or is based on.

Tourists visit Cuba on vacation. Going on vacation pretty much entails enjoying a higher standard of living than normal for a few days.

Before, Cubans weren't allowed inside of hotel rooms with foreign tourists. This was to prevent prostitution. If the Cubans would have been allowed inside the hotels, the enemies of the Revolution would be attacking it for "promoting sex tourism." There's always something...


Castro is not living the same quality of life as the people, is he?He has a few minor benefits. Most of them are related to security. He has a house, in which the biggest luxury, according to various sources (including former comrades who have become enemies of the Revolution) is a big screen TV.

What he has doesn't even begin to equal what the presidents of other countries around the world have.

As I've mentioned in previous threads, even the right-wing Miami Herald admits this:

" Fidel Castro and wife Dalia live in a two-house complex in western Havana. The living room of the main house is described by visitors as furnished with simple wood and leather sofas and chairs and Cuban handicrafts. "

"The only luxury visible to visitors, said Fuentes [a gusano "exile" in Miami], is a big-screen television that Castro uses to satisfy his interest in foreign news reports and videos secretly recorded by Cuba's intelligence services."

...

"The houses of Fidel and Raúl are large but simply appointed."

...

"An acquaintance who has visited both Fidel and Raúl's homes described them as very large by Cuban standards but relatively simply appointed with Cuban-made furniture, with Raúl's home ``a bit nicer than Fidel's.''

...

"I think that when this [Cuban revolution] ends ... most people in Miami will be surprised by their low level of life.''

[Elliot_R]

Goose, you are dumb, really. You're nt intelligent spewing out that BS and saying all Americans are idiots. I'm Canadian fyi, not that it matters because, contray to what you believe, your geographical location does not effect your intelligence. Otherwise you'd be living in the US where all the "stupid people" live.

[Abluegreen7]

Elliot. You come here to insult us?

[Elliot_R]

Nothing Human is Alien: What do you base "quality of life" on because Cuba is shit compared to developed countries. It's a third world country. Personally I wouldnt care about equality if everyone is poor (the reality of Cuba). Religious people cannot join the Communist Party. It's only starting to be more liberal in religious freeom, no where near the degree of the US. You see, there is a HUGE difference between tourists and the Cuban people. The tourists have all good luxerious while the Cuban people are poor. Is that fair? It's not equality. Castro should spend more time making the Cuban people happy, because they are not. What Castro has (I question the validity) is HUGE compared to the poor people of Cuba.

[Goose]

Goose, you are dumb, really. You're nt intelligent spewing out that BS and saying all Americans are idiots. I'm Canadian fyi, not that it matters because, contray to what you believe, your geographical location does not effect your intelligence. Otherwise you'd be living in the US where all the "stupid people" live.

At which point did I say all Americans are idiots? I think I said the sole imperialistic power needs taking out. I think I also SPECIFICALLY noted that I was not so 'dumb' as to include Canadians, Venezualans, Bolivians (my exact words as I recall) in the 'American' empire.

Oops you did it again, as Britney would say.

[Abluegreen7]

Elliot?

Now how do you feel about the "poor people" in America?

The Homeless in America?

How do you feel about this?

Im thinking youve been listening to American Propaganda lately.

[Elliot_R]

yes you did. You said all Americans (or "US"ians) are "ill educated" and crap like this. Tose werent your exact words. Actually READ what you wrote, dumbass.

[Abluegreen7]

Can you quote him saying this?

[Elliot_R]

Abluegreen: I think poor people should be able to live a decent life, however, it doesnt seem they want to.

[Abluegreen7]

How dont they want to?

[Elliot_R]

"Though I assume your own country's mortality rate is affected by ignorant, ill educated (oh - they do education too) little shits like you getting aggressive and running round shooting people on an hourly basis."

"I'm assuming you're American, or at least USian, as I wouldn't want to tar my Venezualan/Canadian/Bolivian/etc brothers with the same brush"

[Elliot_R]

Abluegreen: because they dont improve themselves with the abudant support they get

[Abluegreen7]

I said qoute when he said not copy and pasting. Click the little quote icon please.

[Abluegreen7]

Abluegreen: because they dont improve themselves with the abudant support they get
Can you for once back up your claims?

What suppourt do they get? Im guessing your a capitalist by this remark.

[Elliot_R]

(edit: well done for getting your own quote edited before i replied though, but I still know more than you, and am arrogant ;))

Fundamentally, compared to you, I know pretty much everything. In a world populated by intelligent people I wouldn't be so far ahead of you, but i don't envisage finding you there in that world.

I believe a very middle of the road democrat called Michael moore made a documentary comparing your health care system to Cuba's sonny meladio.

Two simple reasons Cuba's healthcare is better than yours (I'm assuming you're American, or at least USian, as I wouldn't want to tar my Venezualan/Canadian/Bolivian/etc brothers with the same brush):

1) It's free to everyone (not 'if you can pay it's great')
2) Thanks to your great country's embargo on pharmaceuticals (declared illegal by the UN, incidentally, but you don't really do the UN do you?) it has had to rely on prevention rather than cure. You are aware that after Canada, Cuba has the lowest infant mortality rate and the longest life expeectancy in the whole of North/South and Carribean America? Though I assume your own country's mortality rate is affected by ignorant, ill educated (oh - they do education too) little shits like you getting aggressive and running round shooting people on an hourly basis.



there

[Goose]

yes you did. You said all Americans (or "US"ians) are "ill educated" and crap like this. Tose werent your exact words. Actually READ what you wrote, dumbass.

Yep, just read it. Looks the same as before, and I still reckon the world would be better without a unipolar empire. Now, it strikes me you just claimed to be Canadian, while your man Abluegreen up there is happily admitting being American (US-style), and he seems fine. I think you may need to sort out your politico/nationalistic issues before you start arguing politics mate.

Would you maybe like a biscuit and a copy of 'My First Book of How Not to Come Across Like an Ignorant Little Right Winger (just because my country is the only one in the Western world that arrests people for displaying their signs bilingually, but with the wrong language first, and thus I am pretty well versed on right wing extremism. God bless the PQ)'

Or, as it had to be published 'Ma Premiere Livre en comme on pas Appere comme Nazi Fou (éspeciallement si on tue les Anglophones)'

(Godwin's Law doesn't apply in foreign languages, or when quoting book titles - ca va?)

[Abluegreen7]

He wasnt exactly insulting you at all. Read the post what he said clearly.

[Elliot_R]

They have welfare and a ton of government support, most just are lazy and take a free ride from taxpayer's money.

[Abluegreen7]

Yep, just read it. Looks the same as before, and I still reckon the world would be better without a unipolar empire. Now, it strikes me you just claimed to be Canadian, while your man Abluegreen up there is happily admitting being American (US-style), and he seems fine. I think you may need to sort out your politico/nationalistic issues before you start arguing politics mate.

Would you maybe like a biscuit and a copy of 'My First Book of How Not to Come Across Like an Ignorant Little Right Winger (just because my country is the only one in the Western world that arrests people for displaying their signs bilingually, but with the wrong language first, and thus I am pretty well versed on right wing extremism. God bless the PQ)'

Or, as it had to be published 'Ma Premiere Livre en comme on pas Appere comme Nazi Fou (éspeciallement si on tue les Anglophones)'

(Godwin's Law doesn't apply in foreign languages, or when quoting book titles - ca va?)


Goose Im American myself and agree that this Empire must end.

[Abluegreen7]

They have welfare and a ton of government support, most just are lazy and take a free ride from taxpayer's money.


How are they lazy they are going through tough times,

[Elliot_R]

Goose, your posts mostly lack sense. Would you mind rewording so I can understand what you're trying to say?

[Elliot_R]

Ja, how did they get to the position?

[Abluegreen7]

Please dont insult Comrade goose.

[Elliot_R]

But he can insult me, yes?

[Abluegreen7]

No he cant.
Goose dont insult him and Elliot dont insult Goose. Make up you two.

Lets civilly discuss this now.

[Goose]

How are they lazy they are going through tough times,


Bastards the lot of em. And just to be clear, the imaginary book up there was referring to the PQ, the language police and the St Jean Baptiste. All of which are Canadian inventions. Or at least Québecois inventions. Personally I have the priveledge of being half Québecois, half English, so please, if there are any French Canadian nationalists here, don't start. If there are any French Canadian revolutionaries here, join me! Not that you'd be prepared to do so in English anyway...

[DiaMat86]

Like other poor countries, the leader is wealthy and the rest of the people suffer. Do you appauld Castro's oppression, yes? Their healthcare is shit, too, it is all dirty and they lack technology. They use cars from the 1950s. In the US, dont they have a choice? But in Cuba, that is not the case.


"Do you appauld Castro's oppression, yes?"

What oppression?

"Their healthcare is shit, too, it is all dirty and they lack technology."

Cuba has advanced medical technology.

"They use cars from the 1950s. In the US, dont they have a choice? But in Cuba, that is not the case."

Because of the embargo

[Goose]

Goose, your posts mostly lack sense. Would you mind rewording so I can understand what you're trying to say?

Sorry - how much more sense do you need? I seem to be the one that can spell and string two words together. I'm not really sure how I can help further?

[Abluegreen7]

The thing I dont get is the fact that Cuba was denounced for the lack of new cars.

Why does one need new cars? Your thinking with a capitalist mentality there.

How do you feel about health care in Africa and other Latin American nations?

[Elliot_R]

DiaMat, to figure out what I mean, ask a victim of Castro's "utopia" and no Cuba does not have advannced tecnhology and the embargo is not the cause of the poor living conditions of the Cuban people, they can trade with Canada or Europe. Sympathizers keep telling themselves that if the US opened trade with them, somehow the economy would flourish and the people will live wonderfully plesant lives

[Elliot_R]

Abluegreen- Perhaps newer cars are more efficent? Of course the health care is crap in Africa because they are ruled by tyrants who keep all the profits while the people suffer.

[Goose]

DiaMat, to figure out what I mean, ask a victim of Castro's "utopia" and no Cuba does not have advannced tecnhology and the embargo is not the cause of the poor living conditions of the Cuban people, they can trade with Canada or Europe. Sympathizers keep telling themselves that if the US opened trade with them, somehow the economy would flourish and the people will live wonderfully plesant lives

They can trade with EU or Canadian companies that do not have US offices. In a globalised world, I'd venture that's pretty limiting, what with the US being the world's biggest market right now...

[Abluegreen7]

I think they are fine with there cars elliot thats the least thing one needs to worry about in life. Cars are not a necisity they are a luxury item.

[Elliot_R]

http://therealcuba.com/whereistheblockade.htm



read this and not part of it only. it's not propoganda.

[Elliot_R]

Cars are a means of transportation. Do no socialists drive cars?

[Abluegreen7]

Like I said they have cars.

[Elliot_R]

yeah, crap cars.

[Goose]

http://therealcuba.com/whereistheblockade.htm



read this and not part of it only. it's not propoganda.


I think if you want me to read the whole site it may take some time. As I'm sure you're aware, and as that site's netlog agrees, it is run by Cuban emigrés in Florida. Not always the best source of objective views on Cuba. But thanks for the link, which as you already knew I'd seen before.

[Abluegreen7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_woAU1fjOQ

Fidel I love you!

[Goose]

yeah, crap cars.


As luck would have it, on a frivolous point, my job entails me regularly reviewing cars for work. Tomorrow a Chevrolet Captiva (how American?) will appear. I expect that to be pretty rubbish, as one things the Americans can't do is make nice cars that actually work on a driving basis. I'm not aware of Canada ever having had a worthwhile automobile industry, so unless you have a useful point to make on cars, which you certainly don't on politics, you'd might as well let us argue European/American cars, bearing in mind I'm a minimum of 5 hours ahead and your contribution is worthless...

[manic expression]

http://therealcuba.com/whereistheblockade.htm (http://therealcuba.com/whereistheblockade.htm)



read this and not part of it only. it's not propoganda.

To people who don't live in the fantasies of the Miami reactionaries, that IS propaganda, and very bad propaganda at that. As has been said, that site is run by and for right-wing chauvinists in Miami, people who are still bitter that the revolution nationalized Daddy's Farm and gave it to the people who actually worked it. These are the people who support out-and-out terrorism against the Cuban people. Their propaganda is nothing but the mewlings of a sad and pathetic reminder of Batista's murderous reign.


yeah, crap cars.

Cuban cars are a car-lover's dream, a lot of well-preserved classics that collectors can't get enough of. So no, they're not crap cars, they get the job done and they do it in style. Secondly, Cuba's public transportation system is quite adequate, and has been upgraded in recent years with imports from China, which has helped the lives of Cubans even more. In all, your claims are immature and completely incorrect.

[Hiero]

Nothing Human is Alien: What do you base "quality of life" on because Cuba is shit compared to developed countries. It's a third world country. Personally I wouldnt care about equality if everyone is poor (the reality of Cuba). Religious people cannot join the Communist Party. It's only starting to be more liberal in religious freeom, no where near the degree of the US. You see, there is a HUGE difference between tourists and the Cuban people. The tourists have all good luxerious while the Cuban people are poor. Is that fair? It's not equality. Castro should spend more time making the Cuban people happy, because they are not. What Castro has (I question the validity) is HUGE compared to the poor people of Cuba.

That is the inequality of world capitalism.

Socialism isn't about creating middle class americans all around the world. Socialism is for the poor working class, to use and build with what the have.

Your coming from an idealist and bureaucratic criticism, that a few reforms would make everyone happy. Rather then a materialist perspective, which is Cuba is a socialist nation facing a huge enemy that is based in imperialist economics. It is a country that is blockaded, political and economical. These ideas are inherently bourgeoisie, as we see in imperialist nations they declare a nation "free" if it has multiparty elections, regardless of the sufferings of the working class.

Wealth doesn't just emerge from a few reforms. In the case of the USA and other Western nations their wealth comes from a long history of imperialist and colonialist expliotation, which is hoarded amongst a few in thoose countries, though a significant middle class exists and a working class whose standards of living are far better then majority of the proleteriat in the 3rd world. Even with this wealth hoarding, alot of Western nations fail to match the record of socialist states to provide health care, employment and education without discrimination.

Now for Cuba to come even close to the United States it would have to match it's economy and military. That is never going to happen, Cuba could never come an imperialist nation. It is not like Castro (I assume you mean Raul) is hoarding all the countries wealth, that there is a hidden treasury that once realised makes even happy and wealthy. There is a whole economic and political history for the situation that Cuba is in, and the rest of the world.

Using middle class westerners as a benchmark for socialist achievements is idealist. What we compare is the living standards for the world proleteriat through an understanding of Lenin thesis on imperialism, before and after socialist revolution and throughout the revolution.

Really in Cuba, and the majority of the worlds people, it means the world to them to know that they are going to get 3 meals a day, employment, education, shelter and health care. And really to reach and mantian these necessities is a huge achievement.

But then again this is the sort of arguement alot of 1st world middle to upper class people have, "yeah yeah sure about providing the necessities which create a stable life, but do they have PS3?"

[spice756]

Abluegreen- Perhaps newer cars are more efficent? Of course the health care is crap in Africa because they are ruled by tyrants who keep all the profits while the people suffer.


Most places in Africa don't have a hospital and depended on the world health organization.

If I was in charge of Cuba I would ban all cars and put that money into transit.I hate cars and no I do not own a car and never will own one.It is capitalism propaganda you need a car to be happy.Well the car makers become rich and pollute world.Not to say all the sprawling suburbs that are auto -centric and anti -walkable city.

[reddevil]

one thing i don't approve of: castro passing the leadership to his brother in an ironic moment of socialist monarchy. raul has already liberalised the economy somewhat. could he be a revisionist?

[BobKKKindle$]

Castro passing the leadership to his brother in an ironic moment of socialist monarchy.

Raul was elected to the presidency because he was a participant in the revolutionary struggle which overthrew the oppressive government of Batista and created a progressive state devoted to the interests of the Cuban people and the unity of all peoples suffering under the yoke of imperialist oppression. This means that he is well-equipped to make sound decisions on behalf of the Cuban people and defend the achievements of the revolution against the restoration of capitalism and the threat of imperialism. The fact that he is also Fidel's brother has nothing to do with his recent political success, as many of Fidel's other relatives do not occupy positions of political importance and are largely unknown.


raul has already liberalised the economy somewhat. could he be a revisionist?

The "liberalization" was has allegedly taken place in not an attempt to undermine socialism, as explained in this article which examines the recent decision to standardize differences in wages and shows how this reform is fully consistent with the principles of socialism:

Exposing Cuba's Enemies in the British Press, Helen Yaffe (http://www.revolutionarycommunist.org/frfipages/204.html)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Elliot R: If you're just going to make a bunch of false statements, with nothing to back them up, no one with a brain is going to take you seriously.

But, I don't think you care about that. It seems to me that you're probably just a rightist troll.


ask a victim of Castro's "utopia"

You mean the rich white capitalist minority who had their property taken over by the people that actually worked it?


and no Cuba does not have advannced tecnhology

"The end of the cold war was cruel to Cuba. The country's trading partners, denied Soviet largesse, dried up. Hard cash ran low. What food the country could grow languished in the fields; trucks didn't have enough gasoline to bring the crops to market. And of course there was the US embargo."

"What Cubans call "the Special Period" produced one notable success: pharmaceuticals. In the wake of the Soviet collapse, Cuba got so good at making knockoff drugs that a thriving industry took hold. Today the country is the largest medicine exporter in Latin America and has more than 50 nations on its client list. Cuban meds cost far less than their first-world counterparts, and Fidel Castro's government has helped China, Malaysia, India, and Iran set up their own factories: "south-to-south technology transfer."


"Yet at the same time as they were selling generics, the science-heroes of the Cuban Revolution were inventing....Castro made biotechnology one of the building blocks of the economy..."


"They don't really like patents. They like medicine. Cuba's drug pipeline is most interesting for what it lacks: grand-slam moneymakers, cures for baldness or impotence or wrinkles. It's all cancer therapies, AIDS medications, and vaccines against tropical disease"

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/cuba.html


and the embargo is not the cause of the poor living conditions of the Cuban people, they can trade with Canada or Europe.

You clearly don't understand the blockade.

"Forty years after it began, Washington's embargo remains a punishing weapon. Not only are US companies banned from doing business with Cuba, but so are their foreign subsidiaries. No freighter that visits a Cuban port may dock in the US for the next six months. For a Cuban product to reach US companies, the makers have to prove a "compelling national interest" to the US Office of Foreign Assets Control. Consolidation in the drug industry has made things worse, says Ismael Clark, president of the Cuban Academy of Sciences. "You'd have a supplier for several years, and suddenly you'd get a letter from the company saying, 'We can't supply you anymore because our firm was bought by an American transnational.'" - http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/cuba.html?pg=1&topic=cuba&topic_set=

"Imposed since 1962, the US embargo has been reinforced in October 1992 by the Cuban Democracy Act (or "Torricelli Law"), which aimed to restrain the development of the Cuban economy’s new driving forces the by hitting the inflow of funds and goods by: i) the strict limitations of the transfers of foreign currencies by the families in exile, ii) the six-months ban to enter U.S. harbours of all ships that had anchored in a Cuban port, iii) sanctions against firms doing commerce with the island even though under the jurisdiction of a third state. The embargo was systematized by the Cuban Liberty and Democracy Solidarity Act ("Helms Burton Law") of March 1996, aimed to harden the "international" sanctions against Cuba. Its Title I generalizes the ban to import Cuban goods, demanding, for example, that exporters give proof that no Cuban sugar has been integrated in their products, as was already the case with nickel. It conditions the authorization of currency transfers to the creation on the island of a private sector including employment of salaried staff. Still more enterprising, Title II fixes the modalities of a transition to a "post-Castro" power, as well as the nature of the relationship to have with the United States. Title III grants the U.S. tribunals the right to judge demands for damage and interest made by a civil and moral person of U.S. nationality that considers having been injured by the loss of property in Cuba due to nationalization, and claims compensation from the users or beneficiaries of this property. At the request of the old owners, any national (and family) of a third state, having made transactions with these users or beneficiaries, can be sued in the United States. The sanctions incurred are set out in Title IV, which provides, inter alia, the refusal of the State Department to give U.S. entrance visas to these individuals and their families.

"The normative content of this embargo -specially the extraterritoriality of its rules, which intend to impose on the international community unilateral sanctions by the United States..."

"..the direct economic damages caused to Cuba by the U.S. embargo since its institution would exceed 70 billion dollars. The damages include: i) the loss of earnings due to the obstacles to the development of services and exportations (tourism, air transport, sugar, nickel; ii) the losses registered as a result of the geographic reorientation of the commercial flows, (additional costs of freight, stocking and commercialization at the purchasing of the goods…); iii) the impact of the limitation imposed on the growth of the national production of goods and services (limited access to technologies, lack of access to spare parts and hence early retirement of equipment, forced restructuring of firms, serious difficulties sustained by the sectors of sugar, electricity, transportation, agriculture…); iv) the monetary and financial restrictions (impossibility to renegotiate the external debt, interdiction of access to the dollar, unfavourable impact of the variation of the exchange rates on trade, risk-country, additional cost of financing due to U.S. opposition to the integration of Cuba into the international financial institutions…); v) the pernicious effects of the incentive to emigration, including illegal emigration (loss of human resources and talents generated by the Cuban educational system…); vi) social damages affecting the population (concerning food, health, education, culture, sport…)." http://www.alternatives.ca/article876.html

Cuba was poor when the Revolution occurred. The embargo helps keep it that way.


Cuba is shit compared to developed countries. It's a third world country.

Like I said before, no "third world country" compares to the living standards of the imperialist countries. A socialist revolution isn't a magic wand that erases the effects of international development over hundreds of years.

But of all the "third world countries," Cuba is the only one which guarantees its people a house, a job, education and healthcare. It's the only one which surpasses even some of the imperialist countries in measures like literacy, unemployment and infant mortality. It's the only one with public ownership of the means of production. It's the only one in which the people themselves actually rule.


Religious people cannot join the Communist Party.

Again, yes they can. The 1991 congress of the Communist Party of Cuba removed the ban on religious people joining.

And what is your obsession with religion anyway?


Castro passing the leadership to his brother in an ironic moment of socialist monarchy.

"Raúl is the brother of Fidel Castro, but that is not the reason he is President of Cuba.

"Raúl was a committed communist since his earlier days, when he belonged to the Socialist Youth, and affiliate of the Popular Socialist Party. Together with his brother, he participated in a number of political actions as a student.

"On July 26, 1953, Raúl joined Fidel and a group of other students in an attack on the Moncada Barracks in Santiago de Cuba. The action was aimed at securing weapons which would then be distributed to the general population for use in overthrowing the hated U.S.-backed dictatorship of Fulgencio “the butcher” Batista. The attack failed and most of the people who participated were tortured and killed. Raúl was among the survivors, and spent 22 months in prison before he, Fidel and the others were freed as a result of popular outcry.

"Raúl went into exile in Mexico with Fidel and others, organized as the “July 26 Movement,” who aimed to return to Cuba and take up armed struggle against the dictatorship. The group, which numbered 82 and included amongst its members Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara, returned to Cuba on December 2, 1956. Although the group initially suffered a number of losses early on, it was able to regain its links with other on the island, and after several years of armed struggle (during which Raúl was made a commandante), protests and strikes, the dictatorship finally fell in 1959 and the Cuban Revolution triumphed.

"After the initial success of the Revolution in toppling the dictatorship, Raúl became a member of the national leadership of the Integrated Revolutionary Organizations, and the United Party of the Socialist Revolution of Cuba which succeeded it. He has been a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Cuba and the Second Secretary of its Politburo since the Party’s formation in October 1965. Since 1976, he was the First Vice President of the Cuban Council of State, of the National Assembly of People’s Power and of the Council of Ministers. He was the Minister of the Revolutionary Armed Forces from its creation in 1959 until February, 2008. He is also the highest ranking general in Cuba..." - Meet Cuba's New President (http://cubatruth.org/socialistcuba/sum08a.html)

[Elliot_R]

How great is Cuba really?



"
Size of Fidel Castro's fortune, according to Forbes' Rich List 2006: $900m
According to Fidel Castro, it's $0
An incensed Castro appeared on TV to dismiss the Forbes claim, calling it "repugnant slander".
In May last year George Galloway appeared on Cuban TV to defend Castro. He said: "The Cubans are the only people in the world who have a leader who can say that he doesn't possess one dollar to his name."
Forbes admits that estimating the wealth of world leaders is "more art than science", but says the figure is based on Castro's "economic power over a web of state-owned companies".
Some claim the true figure is in fact much higher, pointing to "the Comandante's reserves", billions of dollars in real estate, yachts and other assets in Europe, Latin America and Asia"


Obviously he himself would claim he has $0 to his name, but that is not the case. So while he is a millionare, all the people are poor.


"
Number of prisons and correctional facilities thought to be in Cuba: more than 500.
Last year the UN described food and hygiene levels as "sub-standard" and medical care as "either unavailable or inappropriate".
According the Cuban Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation, thousands of young Cubans are in prison on the charge of "peligrosidad predelectiva" (that is, they are considered likely to commit a crime).
Cuba is one of the few countries in the world to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons."


Wow, aresting people for being "likely to comit a crime"? i dont get it....



"
The bottom of the Reporters Without Borders 2006 Press Freedom Index:
162. Iran
163. China
164. Burma
165. Cuba
166. Eritrea
167. Turkmenistan
168. North Korea
* In 2003, 27 independent journalists were tried summarily and imprisoned in a wide-ranging crackdown on political dissent. The journalists received sentences of up to 27 years. A handful have been released conditionally.
* Current number of journalist imprisoned in Cuba: 25 (including two sentenced last month)."

Wow, Cuba is almost as bad as North Korea in terms of press freedom....is that good?



According to the CIA world factbook, Cuba's GDP is 3, 649 per capita. The US is $39,901 per capita.


They get alot of oil from their trading partner Venezula and almost 3billion dollars worth, yet they still have a crappy living conditions. Methinks Castro's keeping most to himself, yes?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-castropedia-fidels-cuba-in-facts-and-figures-432478.html

"Citizens can be and are jailed for terms of 3 years or more for simply criticizing the communist system or Fidel Castro."

How's that for freedom?



"Castro seeks to control most aspects of Cuban life through the Communist Party and its affiliated mass organizations, the government bureaucracy, and the state security apparatus"

Really? Doesn't seem nice to me.



"The People's Supreme Court is the highest judicial body. Due process is routinely denied to Cuban citizens, particularly in cases involving political offenses. The constitution states that all legally recognized civil liberties can be denied to anyone who opposes the "decision of the Cuban people to build socialism."


http://www.factsmonk.com/facts_about_cuba
"Religions: nominally Roman Catholic 85% prior to CASTRO assuming power; Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, and Santeria are also represented "

So there used to be 85% catholics, but that number decrease dramatically after Castro came to power. Is that oppressive? Why is freedom of religion not allowed?


"Fidel Castro is the worst violator of human rights in the Third World today.The Cuban dictatorship has curtailed the republic’s free press and banned strikes. Critics and opponents of the government, including journalists, human rights activists and members of opposition political parties, are arrested and some are convicted and imprisoned. Fidel Castro claims that demonstrations against him are led “subversives” and people under the influence of the United States."

http://www.thelandofthefree.net/conservativeopinion/2007/09/17/facts-about-cubas-dictatorship/

[BobKKKindle$]

Number of prisons and correctional facilities thought to be in Cuba: more than 500.What are you trying to say - that we should not support Cuba because they have prisons? The US has the largest prison population in the entire world (2.3 million, according to the World Prison Brief published by the International Centre for Prison Studies, compared to 1.6 million in China, where the total population is four times greater than the US) and also has the highest incarceration rate. It laughable that the US should accuse the Cuban government of not respecting the rights of its citizens, given that the worse abuses in Cuba occur at Guantanamo bay, which is currently not under Cuban jurisdiction and is being used by the US to torture suspected terrorists.


In 2003, 27 independent journalists were tried summarily and imprisoned in a wide-ranging crackdown on political dissent. The journalists received sentences of up to 27 years. A handful have been released conditionally.Why don't you look closely at what happened instead of simply accepting lies published by the bourgeois media? These journalists were part of a larger group of 75 dissidents who were arrested in 2003, and they were exposed as foreign agents by 12 Cuban agents who had infiltrated their group and discovered that they had received large sums of money in addition to other resources such as computers and radios from the US Interests Section in Havana as payment for publishing anti-socialist propaganda and trying to undermine the government. Are you suggesting that the Cuban government should have allowed these agents to continue operating and threatening Cuba's national sovereignty? It is admirable that the Cuban government has already released 16 of those arrested in 2003, according to this article: Cuban dissident Miguel Valdes dies, BBC January 2007 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6252977.stm)


So there used to be 85% catholics, but that number decrease dramatically after Castro came to power. Is that oppressive? Why is freedom of religion not allowed?Why do you assume, based on the fact that the prevalence of religious observance has fallen, that there is a lack of religious freedom in Cuba? Many European countries have also exhibited dramatic falls in church attendance in recent years (for example, according to the World Values Survey, the rate of attendance in Norway is just 5%) as people have become more aware that religion is based on a total lack of evidence and logical reasoning, but surely you would not suggest that these European countries are repressive?

[Red Anarchist of Love]

Cuba Libre

[Hiero]

On religion, religious freedom is allowed. In the group that I went with at the start of the year, many people meet many religious people.

Out the front of alot of Cuban homes are catholic shrines. Now alot are not maintianed and have deteriorate, others have pictures of either Che Guevara or Jose Marti and a few have Jesus. In recent times there has been a growth in christian evangelicism.

The majority however have no religious convictions, mostly being atheist. This is because religion is a private matter, that is not support by the state or rich yankee corporation, nor is it suppressed by the state.

So what more bullshit have you got?

[manic expression]

Wow, now s/he quoted FORBES', who OPENLY ADMITTED they were talking straight out of their a** on that claim. They have NO EVIDENCE for the statement they routinely make and they know it. Find me one shred of valid evidence and maybe you might have a point. You won't, though, because you can't.

This just goes to show that our little Forbes' Revolutionary isn't worth the time or effort.

By the way, Reporters Without Borders is a right-wing organization and takes funding from neo-conservative groups. Their word is about as valid as the Miami gusano terrorists you're so fond of.

On the "3 years in prison simply for criticizing Castro" claim, that's completely wrong and the slightest bit of serious research would tell you this. Please look up Oswaldo Paya, probably the most notable dissident in Cuba. He's not in prison, and he has never served a significant prison sentence.

Here are some actual facts:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

Obviously this Forbes' Leftist doesn't know what s/he's talking about. S/he continuously cites some of the most flagrantly reactionary sources on the internet, and expects us to believe it. Typical of the Castrophobes: all recycled lies with no connection to reality.

[Elliot_R]

What are you trying to say - that we should not support Cuba because they have prisons?



No but because they they arrest people for no reason. Considering the population, 500 prisons is tons.



Why don't you look closely at what happened instead of simply accepting lies published by the bourgeois media?


Oh right, because they're like socialism in Cuba sucks. THanks for the link you gave me, it just proves my point.

"The imprisonment of the 75 activists in 2003 triggered international condemnation."



Why do you assume, based on the fact that the prevalence of religious observance has fallen, that there is a lack of religious freedom in Cuba?

Why did it say 85% catholics BEFORE castro's regime? That obviously means something.


others have pictures of either Che Guevara or Jose Marti and a few have Jesus.

I've never been to Cuba (not that I want to go, I dont want to get arrested for accediently speaking a "bad" opinion) but all the pictures of Cuba I've seen are pictures of Che Guevara (who was a murderer, dont know why they worship him) and shitty propoganda slogans of how America sucks. Religious people are probably carely monitored.



On the "3 years in prison simply for criticizing Castro" claim, that's completely wrong and the slightest bit of serious research would tell you this. Please look up Oswaldo Paya, probably the most notable dissident in Cuba. He's not in prison, and he has never served a significant prison sentence.

"It isn't hard to find Oswaldo Paya's house. Located along Calle Penon in Havana's crumbling Cerro district, it's the one under constant surveillance by the not-so-subtle secret police stationed just across the street. "

[BobKKKindle$]

"The imprisonment of the 75 activists in 2003 triggered international condemnation."You're relying on the opinion of the international community as a reliable indication of how the Cuban government operates - this is a flawed way to approach the issue because it ignores the fact that capitalist states (especially the United States, due to the political influence of the Cuban lobby and Cuba's geographical proximity) will never present an objective picture of what is actually happening in Cuba and what the revolution has achieved, but will instead try to tarnish the Cuban government through false accusations of human rights abuses, so as to undermine the ideological legitimacy of socialism as an alternative model of development and form of social organization.


No but because they they arrest people for no reason. Considering the population, 500 prisons is tons. The number of prisons is meaningless - a country can have a small number of prisons and yet still imprison many people if each individual prison is able to hold a large number of prisoners. A more objective and sensible way to approach the issue of justice in Cuba is to examine the incarceration rate, which is a measure of how many people are imprisoned relative to the total population. Cuba's incarceration rate is currently 190 per 100,000 people (Source: World Factbook of Criminal Justice Systems: Cuba, US Department of Justice, 1993) which is low in comparison to many other countries including the United States, which has an incarceration rate of 726 per 100,000 people, almost four times higher than the Cuban rate. The number of prisoners in Cuba has also fallen since the 1980s, as the process of "rectification" initiated by the government led to the passage of a new penal code that decriminalized a number of political offenses,reduced penalties for crimes overall, and instituted a broader range of alternatives to incarceration.


Religious people are probably carely monitored.You can't just assert that something "probably" happens, you have to provide evidence to support your assertions, in the form of reliable sources.


Why did it say 85% catholics BEFORE castro's regime? That obviously means somethingIt shows that the Castro government has reduced the prevalence of religious ideas by implementing a secular education system and raising the cultural level of the working masses.

[Abluegreen7]

Get off are forum if you want to denounce socialism.

You have a very closed mind. So its alright for America to have torture prisons?

Youve been costantly insulting my hero [Castro] for no good reason. You called Che Guevara a heartless murderer.

How do you feel about the founding of America? The Millions of Indians heartlessly exterminated. Africans kidnapped and brought to America to work for no wage. How do you feel about America inplacing Pinochet in Chile? How do you feel about America installing the Shah in Iran? The man who tortured Millions of Civillans with his Secret police who used Nazi torture techniques.

How do you feel about Israel killing innocents?

When we compare Fidel and Raul are saints. Which they are. Im not exactly opposed to a one party system myself.
Atleast the new Cuba isnt based off Batista the Butcher. Long live the Cuban Revolution.

[Elliot_R]

The number of prisoners in Cuba has also fallen since the 1980s, as the process of "rectification" initiated by the government led to the passage of a new penal code that decriminalized a number of political offenses,reduced penalties for crimes overall, and instituted a broader range of alternatives to incarceration.


But a "free" and "democratic" country such as Cuba wouldn't have any "political ffenses" right? Hell most of the crimes are probably "political offenses" and maybe they aren't jailed becase maybe they are executed on the spot maybe....? I dont know, I'm just comparing to other oppressive regimes.



It shows that the Castro government has reduced the prevalence of religious ideas by implementing a secular education system and raising the cultural level of the working masses.

It shows he heavily penalized religious activities. The education system is full of brainwashing, you know. it's not "secular education' only, it's more like "denounce religion and praise marx and Guevaro as gods instead"



Youve been costantly insulting my hero [Castro] for no good reason. You called Che Guevara a heartless murderer.

Ha ha ha, man you're so funny. Castro is your hero????? Guevara is not a heartless murder? So what other dictators do you admire?


How do you feel about Israel killing innocents?

Terrorists are innocents now????


When we compare Fidel and Raul are saints. Which they are. Im not exactly opposed to a one party system myself.


yeah let's look at some horrors of other regimes in the worst sense and THEN Raul and Fidel wont seem so evil afterall.....

[Abluegreen7]

But a "free" and "democratic" country such as Cuba wouldn't have any "political ffenses" right? Hell most of the crimes are probably "political offenses" and maybe they aren't jailed becase maybe they are executed on the spot maybe....? I dont know, I'm just comparing to other oppressive regimes.




It shows he heavily penalized religious activities. The education system is full of brainwashing, you know. it's not "secular education' only, it's more like "denounce religion and praise marx and Guevaro as gods instead"




Ha ha ha, man you're so funny. Castro is your hero????? Guevara is not a heartless murder? So what other dictators do you admire?



Terrorists are innocents now????




yeah let's look at some horrors of other regimes in the worst sense and THEN Raul and Fidel wont seem so evil afterall.....


You need to be restricted to the opposing Ideologies threads.
Not every Palestinian is a Terroist. Dont talk crap about Marx either if you havent noticed your on RevLeft. I admire Vladimir Lenin, The Ho Chi Minh and Mao.

Even if they are denouncing Religion why should one believe in make beleive stories anyways? The only brainwashing is happening in America.

[Abluegreen7]

Castro is truly a fortune of the people though.

[Elliot_R]

You need to be restricted to the opposing Ideologies threads.

Why?


Not every Palestinian is a Terroist.

You obviously only see one side of things yourself cuz you mention all the "horrible" things the Israelis do but fail to see all the horrible things the palestinians do. Like Hamas and PLO.....terrorist organizations.


Dont talk crap about Marx either if you havent noticed your on RevLeft.

When did I talk crap about Marx?


I admire Vladimir Lenin, The Ho Chi Minh and Mao.


Oooh so mass murder is justified, yes?


Even if they are denouncing Religion why should one believe in make beleive stories anyways?

Cause people have the right to believe whatever they want, and maybe it isn't made up?

[Elliot_R]

castro is truly a fortune of the people though.

lol.

[Abluegreen7]

Your insulting Socialism.

Terrorism eh? People constantly hide behind that. Is it not terrorism when the United States allows Facist Right Wing Death Squads into Bolivia?

There has been no brainwashing in Cuba either. Cuban Education under Castro is one of the best educations one can get.

Mass Murder? The Estimates have been debunked several times.

[Elliot_R]

Your insulting Socialism.

No i'm not.


Is it not terrorism when the United States allows Facist Right Wing Death Squads into Bolivia?

Terrorism isn't limited to a certain group of "unfavourable" people. The US has done some questionable things.



There has been no brainwashing in Cuba either. Cuban Education under Castro is one of the best educations one can get.

Ok now this is just BS. A third world country has "one of the best educations one can get"?


Mass Murder? The Estimates have been debunked several times.

What, you mean there wasn't a Red Terror and Lenin didn't actively tell the Cheka to kill the kulaks and the rich?

[Abluegreen7]

Is it not true that Columbus was the cause for Millions of Native American deaths.

Please read another view of Stalin for the Red Terror truth. Most of the Red Terror is countless American Propaganda also Nazi Propaganda.

Lenin is one of the best things the world has gotten.

Yes it is one of the best educations. Your just a big prick who insults nations who are not greedy and imperialist. The Third World unlike most of the developed world does not lack culture.

Please GTFO of our forum if your going to act like this.

[Elliot_R]

Please read another view of Stalin for the Red Terror truth. Most of the Red Terror is countless American Propaganda also Nazi Propaganda.

Oh that garbage. The guy who wrote it is a Stalinist, he just denies what Stalin does or tries to justify it. That's not propoganda?


Lenin is one of the best things the world has gotten.

How so?


Yes it is one of the best educations.

If it's a poor country (with Castro being a freakin' multimillionare), how can they afford to spend so much on education?



Please GTFO of our forum if your going to act like this.

:lol:

[Saorsa]

But a "free" and "democratic" country such as Cuba wouldn't have any "political ffenses" right? Hell most of the crimes are probably "political offenses" and maybe they aren't jailed becase maybe they are executed on the spot maybe....? I dont know, I'm just comparing to other oppressive regimes.

Wow, you really are a master debater. "This probably happens, maybe this happens too, perhaps this happens as well, I don't actually know what I'm talking about, I'm just talking shit". Good work.


It shows he heavily penalized religious activities. The education system is full of brainwashing, you know. it's not "secular education' only, it's more like "denounce religion and praise marx and Guevaro as gods instead"

Exactly what's wrong with an education system that denounces religious idiocy and instead promotes science, reason and the liberation of humanity? Castro and Guevara arent praised as gods, they're recognised as the leaders of the forces that liberated Cuba from imperialist domination and capitalist oppression. Why are you such a fan of religion?


Ha ha ha, man you're so funny. Castro is your hero????? Guevara is not a heartless murder? So what other dictators do you admire?

I adire Fidel Castro, and I greatly admire Che. Here's a quote that illusrtates just how heartless he was:

"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality... We must strive every day so that this love of living humanity will be transformed into actual deeds, into acts that serve as examples, as a moving force."

Che killed a lot of soldiers and counter-revolutionaries in the course of the Cuban revolutionary war, and executed torturers, generals, rapists and enemies of the people after the country was liberated. I uphold and enthusiastically endorse this - if you're revolution doesn't involve killing, it can't have been much of a revolution.


Terrorists are innocents now????

You are an idiot here to troll. The Palestinians are horrifically oppressed by Israel, condemned to a nightmarish existence in the world's largest concentration camp, the Gaza Strip (things are slightly less awful in the West Bank where the sellouts and traitors of Fatah hold power, as Israel doesn't attack it's puppets quite as hard as it attacks it's enemies). I refuse to condemn Palestinians for using the only weapon they feel they have left, their own lives, to try and inflict a small portion of the suffering they have faced onto the Israelis. I disagree with targeting civilians as a tactic, but I refuse to condemn them for it. I fully uphold attacks on military, economic and political aspects of the Zionist occupation.

The only long term solution to the conflict in Palestine is the creation of ONE secular, democratic country where no one is given preferential treatement or discriminated against for being a Jew, an Arab or any other ethnicity. Israel is an apartheid state that needs to be dismantled.

[Abluegreen7]

Castro isnt a Millionaire he even offered to resign if any of this money can be proved.

Your no more than a Capitalist Elliot.

[Saorsa]

[quote=Elliot_R;1243798]Oh that garbage. The guy who wrote it is a Stalinist, he just denies what Stalin does or tries to justify it. That's not propoganda?

No it's an account that rejects the propaganda of the bourgeoisie, and instead seeks to illuminate the many great achievements of the USSR under Stalin's leadership.



If it's a poor country (with Castro being a freakin' multimillionare), how can they afford to spend so much on education?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_cuba

Historically, Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba) has had some of the highest rates of education and literacy in Latin America, both before and after the revolution. In the 1950s, Cuba's literary rate of 76% ranked fourth in the region. Since the revolution, Cuba has maintained high standards of educational development.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_cuba#cite_note-comparison-5) In 1995 rates were 96%. This was second after Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) of thirteen Latin American countries surveyed.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_cuba#cite_note-comparison-5)
A 1998 study by UNESCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNESCO) reported that Cuban students showed a high level of educational achievement. Cuban third and fourth graders scored 350 points, 100 points above the regional average in tests of basic language and mathematics skills. The report indicated that the test achievement of the lower half of students in Cuba was significantly higher than the test achievement of the upper half of students in other Central and South American countries in the study group.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_cuba#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_cuba#cite_note-7)
I'd recommend this new fangled concept called "research".

And exactly what do you base the ridiculous statement that Castro is a millionaire on? Forbes magazine?

You're obviously not a leftist, so what exactly are you doing on this forum if you're not trolling?

[Abluegreen7]

Alastair comrade. How can we get him restricted?

[Elliot_R]

Wow, you really are a master debater. "This probably happens, maybe this happens too, perhaps this happens as well, I don't actually know what I'm talking about, I'm just talking shit". Good work.

No I was talking about it is very very likley that political crimes are punnished heavily. It makes sense for a dictatorship to work.


Exactly what's wrong with an education system that denounces religious idiocy and instead promotes science, reason and the liberation of humanity?

Cuz they shouldn't be forcing opinions down people's throats. "religion is wrong. Repeat after me: Religion is wrong. Guevara is a hero, etc etc". Doesn't sound like science and reason.


I disagree with targeting civilians as a tactic, but I refuse to condemn them for it. I fully uphold attacks on military, economic and political aspects of the Zionist occupation.

WTH is wrong with you? You dont condemn them for killing civilians? They strap bombs to themselves and actively kill israelis, innocents. That's justified? So you support terrorism as long as it's killing Israelis but feel empathy to the Arab terrorist monsters?



Castro isnt a Millionaire he even offered to resign if any of this money can be proved.

Your no more than a Capitalist Elliot.

WTH, I never heard anything but I have a ton of sources that say is a millionare.

[Elliot_R]

No it's an account that rejects the propaganda of the bourgeoisie, and instead seeks to illuminate the many great achievements of the USSR under Stalin's leadership.


Oh the Great Purge and all that shit is good, yes? Tell me all the "great achivements" of the USSR under's Stalin's dictatorship.



I'd recommend this new fangled concept called "research".

Holy shit, their literacy rates are 96%. In America it's almost 100%.


And exactly what do you base the ridiculous statement that Castro is a millionaire on? Forbes magazine?

Where do you base the fact that he lives the same lifestyle as a citizin? I highly doubt that a leader would....

[Abluegreen7]

We never took up for Civillan deaths we simply took up for Isreali Military deaths which arent civillan. A country that actively murders Palestinians is not alright.

Once upon a time they all lived happilly together, Muslims and Jews. This is before the foundation of Israel though.

Your sources are Borgouise. Castro said if they prove the money he will leave his posistion. No one is brainwashed in Cuba either. Che is a hero! He took out that butcher known as batista.

[Abluegreen7]

Literacy in Cuba is 100%.

[Abluegreen7]

Educational oversight
Minister of Education
Ministry of Education
Luis Ignacio Gómez Gutiérrez (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Luis_Ignacio_G%C3%B3mez_Guti%C3%A9 rrez&action=edit&redlink=1)National education budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding)$2752 million CP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Peso) ($246 CP per capita)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba#cite_note-0) (2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002))Primary language(s) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language)Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language)system

Literacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy) (2004)
• Men
• Women100[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba#cite_note-1)%
100[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba#cite_note-2)%
100[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba#cite_note-3)%Enrollment
• Primary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_education)
• Secondary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education)
• Post-secondary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-secondary_education)=


Attainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment)
• Secondary diploma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education)
• Post-secondary diploma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-secondary_education)

[Elliot_R]

Once upon a time they all lived happilly together, Muslims and Jews.

Riiight cause Muslims can live in peace with other religions cause afterall the Quran doesn't say to kill all nonbelievers....


No one is brainwashed in Cuba either. Che is a hero!

Sounds like you're the one who's brainwashed....

[Saorsa]

[quote=Elliot_R;1243805]No I was talking about it is very very likley that political crimes are punnished heavily. It makes sense for a dictatorship to work.

So... there's no evidence to support what you're saying? You're just talking out of your arse?




Cuz they shouldn't be forcing opinions down people's throats. "religion is wrong. Repeat after me: Religion is wrong. Guevara is a hero, etc etc". Doesn't sound like science and reason.

Again you prove your ignorance. That would be not only the wrong approach to take, but also an ineffective one. Instead, the Cuban education system explains why religion is nonsensical and why it is wrong, and it's history classes would talk about the role Guevara played in the revolutionary struggle in Cuba. I'm assuming even an idiot like you doesn't attempt to deny that Che was a leader of the Cuban Revolution!

That is an entirely scientific approach.



WTH is wrong with you? You dont condemn them for killing civilians? They strap bombs to themselves and actively kill israelis, innocents. That's justified? So you support terrorism as long as it's killing Israelis but feel empathy to the Arab terrorist monsters?

A Jewish man broke out of the Warsaw Ghetto during the Second World War, and was so enraged over the murder of his family and friends by the Nazi soldiers that he travelled to Berlin and threw a grenade into a restaurant. Would you call him a "terrorist monster" for this, or would you recognise that he was driven to do this by the terrible things that had been done to him?

And not all Israelis are innocents. Their soldiers are not innocent, their wealthy capitalists are not innocent, their police are not innocent, and their Zionoist politicians are not innocent. It is both justifiable and applaudable to kill these people.



WTH, I never heard anything but I have a ton of sources that say is a millionare.

Whodathunkit, you don't hear anything when you refuse to listen. :lol: Provide one of these sources, let's see how reliable they are. And better still, probe that you have a brain of your own and provide some kind of argument for the existence of Castro's vast wealth.

[Abluegreen7]

Alastair I want this guy restricted.

[Saorsa]

[quote=Elliot_R;1243811]Oh the Great Purge and all that shit is good, yes? Tell me all the "great achivements" of the USSR under's Stalin's dictatorship.

Let's see... literacy rates, rights for women, rights for ethnic minorities, 100% employment even during the Great Depression, when millions of workers in the West had no job, industrial development, rise in living standards, free education and free healthcare for all, housing for all, huge achievements in the fields of science and technology... the list goes on.


Holy shit, their literacy rates are 96%. In America it's almost 100%.

Where does the 96% figure come from?

UNICEF claims otherwise.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba_statistics.html


Total adult literacy rate, 2000-2005*
100%





Where do you base the fact that he lives the same lifestyle as a citizin? I highly doubt that a leader would....

Well we all value you're opinion so highly we won't ask for any proof. You made the statement that he lives in luxury and is a millionaire, it's your responsibility to back up your claims.

[Elliot_R]

Again you prove your ignorance. That would be not only the wrong approach to take, but also an ineffective one. Instead, the Cuban education system explains why religion is nonsensical and why it is wrong, and it's history classes would talk about the role Guevara played in the revolutionary struggle in Cuba. I'm assuming even an idiot like you doesn't attempt to deny that Che was a leader of the Cuban Revolution!

Why should teachers be broadcasting the state's opinion? Schools shouldn't say "this is wrong" for things that aren't that clear. They shouldn't be saying religion is wrong. They should let the kids think for themselves.


Would you call him a "terrorist monster" for this, or would you recognise that he was driven to do this by the terrible things that had been done to him?

yes that is terrorism unless the resteraunt was full of nazi scum.


And not all Israelis are innocents.

and not all palestians are innocents.


Provide one of these sources

I did. and the reason why he has a ton of wealth is because his friend Chavez has been giving him tons of oil. He probably takes 80% of the country's wealth for himself.

[Saorsa]

Alastair I want this guy restricted.

All he's doing at the moment is making himself look like an uninformed idiot. I say we let him keep digging his own grave! :lol:

[Abluegreen7]

Are you now Insulting Chavez?
Your pushing it.

Chavez and Castro are two heros maybe you should stop watching that CNN.

[Elliot_R]

Let's see... literacy rates, rights for women, rights for ethnic minorities, 100% employment even during the Great Depression, when millions of workers in the West had no job, industrial development, rise in living standards, free education and free healthcare for all, housing for all, huge achievements in the fields of science and technology... the list goes on.

let's see...mass killing to political dissendents, incredibly difficult living conditions,mass oppression by the NKVD who had quotas, purging of the red army and the communist party, huge slave labour system, annihilating all "enemies of the people", killing the kulaks....the list goes on.



Well we all value you're opinion so highly we won't ask for any proof. You made the statement that he lives in luxury and is a millionaire, it's your responsibility to back up your claims.

i did. Just look through my posts.

[Abluegreen7]

Under-5 mortality rank
88
Under-5 mortality rate, 1990
33
Under-5 mortality rate, 2006
31
Infant mortality rate (under 1), 1990
28
Infant mortality rate (under 1), 2006
26
Neonatal mortality rate, 2000
10
Total population (thousands), 2006
2699
Annual no. of births (thousands), 2006
55
Annual no. of under-5 deaths (thousands), 2006
2
GNI per capita (US$), 2006
3480
Life expectancy at birth (years), 2006
72
Total adult literacy rate, 2000-2005*
80
Primary school net enrolment/ attendance (%), 2000-2006*
97
% share of household income 1995-2004*, lowest 40%
14
% share of household income 1995-2004*, highest 20%
52


This is from Cubas neighbor Jamica.

[Abluegreen7]

Under-5 mortality rank
92
Under-5 mortality rate, 1990
65
Under-5 mortality rate, 2006
29
Infant mortality rate (under 1), 1990
50
Infant mortality rate (under 1), 2006
25
Neonatal mortality rate, 2000
19
Total population (thousands), 2006
9615
Annual no. of births (thousands), 2006
231
Annual no. of under-5 deaths (thousands), 2006
7
GNI per capita (US$), 2006
2850
Life expectancy at birth (years), 2006
72
Total adult literacy rate, 2000-2005*
87
Primary school net enrolment/ attendance (%), 2000-2006*
88
% share of household income 1995-2004*, lowest 40%
12
% share of household income 1995-2004*, highest 20%
57


This is from Cubas Neighbor Dominican Republic.

[Saorsa]

Why should teachers be broadcasting the state's opinion? Schools shouldn't say "this is wrong" for things that aren't that clear. They shouldn't be saying religion is wrong. They should let the kids think for themselves.

Religion by it's very nature cannot be proven, and is based on pure faith and the rejection of the scientific method. Rubbish like that should not be taught in schools. I take it you're part of the school of thought that thinks creationism should be taught in science class?


yes that is terrorism unless the resteraunt was full of nazi scum.

How do you define "nazi scum"?


and not all palestians are innocents.

So some Palestinians deserve to live in a concentration camp shut off from access to clean water, healthcare and medical supplies, adequate sanitation, jobs, tertiary education, food and other basic necessities? How can a baby born into this nightmarish place have done anything to deserve it?


I did.

Well if you have so many it won't be hard to post another one, or at the least to post it again.


and the reason why he has a ton of wealth is because his friend Chavez has been giving him tons of oil. He probably takes 80% of the country's wealth for himself.

Again with the word probably. :lol:

You are just being ridiculous now, if Castro did that Cuba would be a country of mud huts and a life expectancy of 30 years. I struggle to see how Cuba would be able to maintain a better healthcare and education system (both free and available to all) than the USA does, even with Castro stealing most of the country's wealth to pay for his cigars! I had no idea Cuba had such a vast amount of wealth!

[Abluegreen7]

Did he not read about Cubas neighbors?

[Elliot_R]

Ok here's the link that talks about Castro's wealth:

http://www.brookesnews.com/062205fontova.html



Religion by it's very nature cannot be proven, and is based on pure faith and the rejection of the scientific method. Rubbish like that should not be taught in schools. I take it you're part of the school of thought that thinks creationism should be taught in science class?

The absense of religion cannot be proven because it defies science. I dont think schools should have any say in religious matters, whether it embraces it or denounces it.


How do you define "nazi scum"?

Anyone who agrees with Hitler to at least some degree.


So some Palestinians deserve to live in a concentration camp shut off from access to clean water, healthcare and medical supplies, adequate sanitation, jobs, tertiary education, food and other basic necessities? How can a baby born into this nightmarish place have done anything to deserve it?

Well they teach them to kill Isrealis at a young age. How do the families of the victims of palestian terrorism deserve that?

[Elliot_R]

Did he not read about Cubas neighbors?

It doesnt make Cuba any better. Compare Cuba with the US.

[Abluegreen7]

As we said Forbes was no truth at all. Castro isnt rich he offered to resine as leader if it was proven.

Victims of Terrorism? So why is it allowed that American soldiers are allowed to kill Afgani's?

You really are close minded.

[Abluegreen7]

It doesnt make Cuba any better. Compare Cuba with the US.

Not every country should be like the United States. The United States lack of Culture and practice of Consumerism is perverting the world.

Cant you see this?

Dont you see what happens when a country behaves like the United States.

There empire will eventually crash,

[Saorsa]

et's see...mass killing to political dissendents...mass oppression by the NKVD who had quotas, purging of the red army and the communist party, huge slave labour system, annihilating all "enemies of the people", killing the kulaks....the list goes on.

All of that is either outright lies or grossly exaggerated by the bourgeois media and bourgeois "historians" who use reports from pro-imperialist ources to base their outlandish claims upon.


incredibly difficult living conditions

Um, Russia wasn't a happy wealthy paradise when Stalin became it's leader. It was a country in ruins due to the Tsarist regime, the First World War and the Civil War that followed it. Under Stalin's leadership, all of this improved dramatically. You cannot look at Soviet Russia in isolation, compare it to the US or whatever and claim that communism was responsible for it's lower living standards. You must instead measure it in terms of progress, in terms of how much things improved for the masses under Stalin's leadership, and the answer is a lot.

[Elliot_R]

Here's another good site:

http://www.joesherlock.com/Castro.html

[Plagueround]

WTH, I never heard anything but I have a ton of sources that say is a millionare.

Castro's "wealth" is a misattribution. He is head of the state, so morons like Forbes magazine decide to put a spin on it by claiming since a majority of businesses are state owned that the money belongs to Castro. For the power he held, Fidel lives a rather modest life compared to most world leaders. Cuba does have it's share of problems, but at least attempt to make an informed opinion.

[Elliot_R]

All of that is either outright lies or grossly exaggerated by the bourgeois media and bourgeois "historians" who use reports from pro-imperialist ources to base their outlandish claims upon.

Oh that's your defense. Do you think the Holocaust was made up too?




You must instead measure it in terms of progress, in terms of how much things improved for the masses under Stalin's leadership, and the answer is a lot.
__________________

Not really

[Elliot_R]

Look at this as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/01/01/castros_true_legacy_is_a_bloody_trail/

[Saorsa]

I'd just like to inquire first off - do you honestly believe a source that refers to nationalisation as "looting" can be trusted to tell the truth about a socialist leader like Fidel Castro? It's sole basis for him being a millionaire is the fact that Cuba has a largely state controlled economy, and Castro was the ehad of state. They provide no other evidence whatsoever, because none exists - this is what the argument boils down to.

Therefore your claim is an instant failure. Because above and beyond the fact that Catsor had neither the power nor the inclination to try to steal Cuba's nation wealth and spend it on himself, Fidel Castro is no longer the Cuban head of state. Therefore he no longer "owns" all these enterprises and wealth, and thus is not a millionaire. That source torpedoed your own argument.


The absense of religion cannot be proven because it defies science. I dont think schools should have any say in religious matters, whether it embraces it or denounces it.

The absence of a blue teapot floating in the air behind your head can also not be proven, because it defies science. Whenever you turn your head it moves too, and it can only be viewed by the naked human eye. The only reason you can't see it is because you lack the faith to believe that it's there. Sounds stupid doesn't it?

You didn't answer my question, and the sentence you did provide contradicted itself. If a shcool is either denouncing or embracing religion, it "has a say" in the matter. Do you or do you not think the public education system should teach creatiuonism in science class, in order to "teach the debate"?


Anyone who agrees with Hitler to at least some degree.

That could have been applied to most Germans during WW2, so I take it that you refuse to condemn the Jewish man throwing a grenade into a restaurant. The majority of Israeli civilians would agree with Zionism and the oppression of the Palestinians to "at least some degree", so surely this would make them a legitimate target then, and would mean that the Palestinian suicide bombers should not be condemned?


Well they teach them to kill Isrealis at a young age. How do the families of the victims of palestian terrorism deserve that?

So Israelis are victims but the Palestinians, who are killed far more often by the Israelis than vice versa and suffer far worse living conditions than the Israelis do, are not. Right...

So your take on the conflict is not that the Palestinian armed struggle is a response to Israeli oppression (that often targets civilians), but instead that evil Arab Islamo-fascists are brainwashing their kids into attacking the nice Israelis?

[Plagueround]

Look at this as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/01/01/castros_true_legacy_is_a_bloody_trail/

Be careful judging countries solely on the number of people they kill. By that article's (likely exaggerated) numbers, the United States had killed more people with a single bomb than Castro's entire time in office.

[Abluegreen7]

He truthfully is shooting himself in the foot.

[Abluegreen7]

Be careful judging countries solely on the number of people they kill. By that article's (likely exaggerated) numbers, the United States had killed more people with a single bomb than Castro's entire time in office.
Castro obviously has not done bad.

[Saorsa]

Not really

A typically crushing retort... do you actually have the ability to make an argument, or just spout stupid one liners and post links to right-wing magazines like Forbes?


Oh that's your defense.

Yes it is. It comes down to a simple question - do you believe the capitalist media and pro-capitalist historians are trustworthy? Do you trust the capitalist class, our enemies? In my case, the answer is no.


Do you think the Holocaust was made up too?

No.

[Abluegreen7]

That link is extremly biased. Did you read the hinting words telling you its biased.

"When Castro Finnally Dies" That tells us its severely biased.

[Saorsa]

Be careful judging countries solely on the number of people they kill. By that article's (likely exaggerated) numbers, the United States had killed more people with a single bomb than Castro's entire time in office.

Very bloody true, good point. But you don't see our friend Eliot condemning them nearly as harshly as he attacks Cuba...

[Plagueround]

Castro obviously has not done bad.

I personally would like to see more reforms and an increase in political freedoms. Go take a look at the jailed musician thread in the music section of the forum if you haven't...it's quite interesting. Some of the things Raul has been doing are positive. At the same time, it is a very thin line they must walk on to avoid the type of capitalist reforms that have hurt other attempts at socialism in the past.

[Abluegreen7]

Does anyone else smell the republican on Elliot?

[Abluegreen7]

I personally would like to see more reforms and an increase in political freedoms. Go take a look at the jailed musician thread in the music section of the forum if you haven't...it's quite interesting. Some of the things Raul has been doing are positive. At the same time, it is a very thin line they must walk on to avoid the type of capitalist reforms that have hurt other attempts at socialism in the past.

Can in America one sing about them suppourting Osama Bin Laden/Taliban/Al Queda?

Can one verbally suppourt Al Queda?

[Elliot_R]

For some reason I cant wquote what you said anymore....?

So I'll try to paraphrase a wee: in socialism, dont the means of production belong to the peope? Why does Castro own them then?

The idea that something came from nothing is not scientifcally plausible.

I mean schools shouldn't embrace or denounce religion.

Not all Germans in WWII were nazis. Palestians kill innocents. Why is that anymore justified?

[Elliot_R]

Why would an American support Al Quada? if they do, then yes they deserve to die. Al Quada is not a progressive organization anwyays, stop being hypocrites.

[Abluegreen7]

Then where is Freedom of speech in America?

Why shouldnt a American be able to?

[Elliot_R]

Freedom of speech does not mean they have the right to support an organization that could potentially harm me and others. Why should we wait until he actually DOES something, instead of arrssting him before he has a chance to kill people?

[Plagueround]

Can in America one sing about them suppourter Osama Bin Laden/Taliban/Al Queda?

Can one verbally suppourt Al Queda?

It depends on your definition of support. I am able to denounce the actions of our leaders and point out what I see as the truths about what we are doing, I can and have told people the real reasons behind our involvement in Afghanistan and the Middle East in general. I could probably even write a song about how Al Queda was "teh awesome" and it would probably not be well received, but I wouldn't likely be jailed. I am not however, able to provide support through funding or supplies.

The grey area here is that someone in the U.S. could probably find ways to jail me on trumped up charges and the general public would likely harass me and make my life hell. Here in "Merika" we don't always need the police to punish the dissidents, we've trained our media and our people to do it for them, if you know what I mean. While many of the complaints about freedoms in Cuba are propaganda, some of them are true and it is not wrong to point out the things I think they could do better (some of our more militant members may disagree). When I say I'd like to see more political freedoms in Cuba, it doesn't mean I'm not very, very critical of the system we have here.

[Abluegreen7]

Elliot isnt this what you were opposing Castro for?

[Abluegreen7]

It depends on your definition of support. I am able to denounce the actions of our leaders and point out what I see as the truths about what we are doing, I can and have told people the real reasons behind our involvement in Afghanistan and the Middle East in general. I could probably even write a song about how Al Queda was "teh awesome" and it would probably not be well received, but I wouldn't likely be jailed. I am not however, able to provide support through funding or supplies.

The grey area here is that someone in the U.S. could probably find ways to jail me on trumped up charges and the general public would likely harass me and make my life hell. Here in "Merika" we don't always need the police to punish the dissidents, we've trained our media and our people to do it for them, if you know what I mean. While many of the complaints about freedoms in Cuba are propaganda, some of them are true and it is not wrong to point out the things I think they could do better (some of our more militant members may disagree). When I say I'd like to see more political freedoms in Cuba, it doesn't mean I'm not very, very critical of the system we have here.

I was just showing Elliot he is no more than a one sided hypocrite.

[Revulero]

how do palestinians kill innocents when israelis are kicking them out of their homes just because an old expired book says that its their land. Israelis and Palestinians should live in peace side by side under a secular govt. and how can u support israeli govt. for the genocide theyre commiting. It seems that they are no different from nazis. And try proving the facts the education system in cuba is promoting anti religous teachings.

[Abluegreen7]

There are protests against Israel by Jewish people.

[Elliot_R]

I say people can have differing opinions and say stuff like "I hate America" and not be jailed, but when you advocate harming people, that is a different story.

[Abluegreen7]

Is it okay for a cuban advocating to kill Communist Party Members of Cuba including Raul and Fidel?

[Saorsa]

So I'll try to paraphrase a wee: in socialism, dont the means of production belong to the peope? Why does Castro own them then?

He doesn;t and he never did, so you admit that he is not a millionaire. He was the Cuban head of state, which was used by the lying idiots at Forbes to claim that he was rich.


The idea that something came from nothing is not scientifcally plausible.

So you are a creationist! Very good, a little honesty is emerging. Personally I'm quite partial to Stephen Hawkings theory about the increase in the number of black holes over a vast period of time to the point where the universe implodes upon itself, and explodes outwards again in a Big Bang. There is not time before time (the very concept is absurd), so the universe did not explode from nothing, it exploded from the collapse of the one before it.

It's probably unproveable, of course, but it makes a lot more sense than creationism.


I mean schools shouldn't embrace or denounce religion.

And what does that mean? You still are dancing around the question. Have enough of a spine to actually stand by your beliefs and anser question straight up. Do you support creationism being taught in science classes, or do you oppose that?


Not all Germans in WWII were nazis.

You said yourself that "anyone who agrees with Hitler to at least some degree" is nazi scum. In around half an hour you've already totally contradicted yourself!


Palestians kill innocents. Why is that anymore justified?

I don't advocate it, but the blame for suicide bombings does not lie with evil Arabs brainwashing their childre, it lies with the Israelis for oppressing the Palestinian people and driving them to the point where they woud commit suicide just to take some of their oppressors with them.

The suicide bomber is a mosquito. The occupation is the swamp.


Why would an American support Al Quada? if they do, then yes they deserve to die. Al Quada is not a progressive organization anwyays, stop being hypocrites.

The US has killed more innocent people with one bomb than Al Quada ever has. Does that mean you think anyone who supports the US being killed? If not, then your the hypocrite. The Israelis have killed far more Palestinians than Al Quaida has killed Americans, and indeed Israel has killed far more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis! Surely you should be condemning the Israelis then?

[Abluegreen7]

Alastair did you like the trick question I used on him?

[Saorsa]

Freedom of speech does not mean they have the right to support an organization that could potentially harm me and others.

Why don't you denounce the pigs and the military then? They could quite easily harm you, and they have a long history of doing it.


I say people can have differing opinions and say stuff like "I hate America" and not be jailed, but when you advocate harming people, that is a different story.

In that case I take it you think George Bush, Barack Obama and John MCain should all be jailed then? They've all advocated harming people, Obama wouldn't rule out using nukes against Iran ffs!


Alastair did you like the trick question I used on him?


Nicely done. :)

[Elliot_R]

Is it okay for a cuban advocating to kill Communist Party Members of Cuba including Raul and Fidel?


Yes.


so the universe did not explode from nothing, it exploded from the collapse of the one before it.


But when and how ddi it all start?


Do you support creationism being taught in science classes, or do you oppose that?


it should be added as a possibility, along with others.



You said yourself that "anyone who agrees with Hitler to at least some degree" is nazi scum. In around half an hour you've already totally contradicted yourself!

And not everyone in Germany agred with Hitler.


I don't advocate it, but the blame for suicide bombings does not lie with evil Arabs brainwashing their childre, it lies with the Israelis for oppressing the Palestinian people and driving them to the point where they woud commit suicide just to take some of their oppressors with them.

But I would never kill innocent people, no matter the cirumstances. Isreal has the right to exist. There's many muslim states where they can all be immoral.


The US has killed more innocent people with one bomb than Al Quada ever has. Does that mean you think anyone who supports the US being killed? If not, then your the hypocrite. The Israelis have killed far more Palestinians than Al Quaida has killed Americans, and indeed Israel has killed far more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis! Surely you should be condemning the Israelis then?

The Palestians would not leave Isreal alone. How is that too difficult to do? Most of the (terrorist) palestians do deserve to die, so it is justified as they not innocent.


Why don't you denounce the pigs and the military then? They could quite easily harm you, and they have a long history of doing it.

I wondered it wrong. Harming murderers, etc is okay. I meant to say anyone who could potentially harm INNOCENT people.

[Plagueround]

I wondered it wrong. Harming murderers, etc is okay. I meant to say anyone who could potentially harm INNOCENT people.

By your reasoning we should execute the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Should we?

[RHIZOMES]

But I would never kill innocent people, no matter the cirumstances. Isreal has the right to exist. There's many muslim states where they can all be immoral.

Yes I totally agree with you!
A) Those Palestinians are actually WANTED in the other countries, so they can obviously move out of those nice little mini-concentration camps they're in. :)
B) It's not like their livelihood was forcefully taken away from them and taken over by the Israelis or anything!

Oh wait...


The Palestians would not leave Isreal alone.

The Isrealis (sic) would not leave the Palestians (sic) alone either.


How is that too difficult to do?

Because the Israelis sort of stole their land. :lol:


Most of the (terrorist) palestians do deserve to die, so it is justified as they not innocent.

You know the Israelis kill just as much if not more innocent Palestinians right? You are right-wing racist scum who believes everything Fox News tells you. You have no critical thinking skills. Either that or you're a troll.


I wondered it wrong. Harming murderers, etc is okay. I meant to say anyone who could potentially harm INNOCENT people.

Oh sort of like the Israeli Defense Force?

[Revulero]

Hopefully one day you get kicked out of your own home and see if you can "leave it alone".

[Saorsa]

[quote=Elliot_R;1243881]Yes.

Why?




But when and how ddi it all start?

The process continues infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future. There cannot be a time before time, therefore time continues infinitely.




it should be added as a possibility, along with others.

Along with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?





And not everyone in Germany agred with Hitler.

A lot did, and the majority would have agreed with aspects of what he was doing. You're tripping over your own feet.




But I would never kill innocent people, no matter the cirumstances. Isreal has the right to exist. There's many muslim states where they can all be immoral.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes with crippled people in them who cannot escape, in full knowledge of what they're doing. I take it that because that person is a dirty Arab they're not "innocent"?

If you support the right of apartheid Israel to exist you should also support the right of apartheid Sotuh Africa to have existed. Why does Israel have the right to exist?




The Palestians would not leave Isreal alone. How is that too difficult to do? Most of the (terrorist) palestians do deserve to die, so it is justified as they not innocent.

The Palestinians are oppressed in their own country! Why should they accept this? They are waging a liberation struggle against the racist, Zionist occupiers, and they have every right to do so.




I wondered it wrong. Harming murderers, etc is okay. I meant to say anyone who could potentially harm INNOCENT people.

In that case you should support harming the pigs and the military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/27/afghanistan.usa

[Yehuda Stern]

You know Alastair, seeing you in this thread, I'm thinking you're not that bad.

[reddevil]

elliott, i don't know why ur here. freerepublic wud probably be more in line with your position.

[Saorsa]

You know Alastair, seeing you in this thread, I'm thinking you're not that bad.

Lol, thanks I guess. I'm still an evil Stalinist though. :cool:

[Bright Banana Beard]

elliott, i don't know why ur here. freerepublic wud probably be more in line with your position.

He is obviously a troll which get information from capitalist source, nothing else.

[Yehuda Stern]

Lol, thanks I guess. I'm still an evil Stalinist though.

Granted, but still with better positions on Palestine than the run of the mill Stalinist / Maoist / Hoxhaist / Titoist.

[manic expression]

"It isn't hard to find Oswaldo Paya's house. Located along Calle Penon in Havana's crumbling Cerro district, it's the one under constant surveillance by the not-so-subtle secret police stationed just across the street. "

Bull. Not surprisingly, you didn't even give us the source for that quote. Probably because you know as well as we do that your sources are full of recycled lies. Was that quote from Forbes' too?


Ok here's the link that talks about Castro's wealth:

Pathetic. We show you, beyond any real doubt, that Forbes' estimate is completely wrong, and you post a link that cites...wait for it...Forbes' estimate. All you have is slander and reactionary hogwash. We expect no less and no more from fools like yourself.


It doesnt make Cuba any better. Compare Cuba with the US.

Gladly. 40 million Americans have no healthcare; Cuba provides free and full and effective healthcare to each and every one of its citizens. More than 1.35 million American children are homeless in a year's time; there isn't a single homeless child in Cuba. 1/5 of American children live in poverty; Cuba provides all necessities to its people, and the needs of children are especially met. More than 10% of Americans are unemployed, and that number is about to skyrocket; employment is the rule in Cuba, and people take pride in contributing to their communities. American elections take a personal fortune to seriously take part in; Cuban elections don't cost a single dollar to rise to the highest offices. Americans are isolated and ambivalent toward the political process, for it is a process of capitalist politics; Cubans are very engaged in their political process, for it is a process of the working class and it is far more democratic than the bourgeois politics of the United States. American racism and sexism are rampant; Cuba has eliminated bigotry and sees solid representation of women and minorities in government.

I could go on, but I won't because you're not worth the time or the effort. You're convinced that Cuba is a dictatorship, and no amount of evidence or facts will sway you from your immature and insipid position. It comes down to you being a pathetic apologist for imperialism, for you delight in the dishonest slander of its enemies. Like I said, you're not worth the time or the effort because you're a joke to anyone who knows the facts of Cuba.

PS, your bigoted view of Arabs only confirms my suspicions: you're a vintage imperialist hack who has no respect for anyone outside the most flagrant reactionaries.

[spice756]

I think this thread has gon on long enough if Elliot_R wants to make other Cuba thread part 2 he can do it in OI.

He is just going on and on .

[Elliot_R]

Yes I totally agree with you!
A) Those Palestinians are actually WANTED in the other countries, so they can obviously move out of those nice little mini-concentration camps they're in. http://www.nodomain.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5yZXZsZWZ0LmNvbS92Yi9yZX ZsZWZ0L3NtaWxpZXMvMDAxX3NtaWxlLmdpZg%3D%3D
B) It's not like their livelihood was forcefully taken away from them and taken over by the Israelis or anything!

Oh wait...

It's not like they are innocent when children are taught to strap bombs to themselves because Israelis are all evil.



Because the Israelis sort of stole their land. http://www.nodomain.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5yZXZsZWZ0LmNvbS92Yi9yZX ZsZWZ0L3NtaWxpZXMyL2xhdWdoLmdpZg%3D%3D

"Their land"....under communism the land belongs to everyone? The Palestinians wnt "their land" without the Israelis and aren't willing to share...


You know the Israelis kill just as much if not more innocent Palestinians right?

Innocent? And organizations like Hamas and PLO are only killing the "evil" israelis....


You are right-wing racist scum who believes everything Fox News tells you. You have no critical thinking skills. Either that or you're a troll.


You're the piece of shit yourself, kiddo.




Why?

Sorry I read that wrong. I thought he suggested only kiling the oppressers (Fidel and Raul) and not the Communist Party members, even though the Communist Party members are treated better than the regular citizens.....


The process continues infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future. There cannot be a time before time, therefore time continues infinitely.


How can complex beings emerge from a single atom? The atomic properties of matter must have changed because we're not making any more humans that way....


A lot did, and the majority would have agreed with aspects of what he was doing. You're tripping over your own feet.

He was justified killing everyone in that building when say, 94% (it's probably lower) agreed with Hitler? What about the 6% who didn't?


If you support the right of apartheid Israel to exist you should also support the right of apartheid Sotuh Africa to have existed.

How is Isreal an apartheid system?


The Palestinians are oppressed in their own country!


Oh, how silly of me to think they weren't "oppressed".



Was that quote from Forbes' too?

No actually it wasn't.



Cuba provides free and full and effective healthcare to each and every one of its citizens

Yeah, shitty quality, but hey, it's FREE!!


1/5 of American children live in poverty

I doubt that, but if it is true, that's American standards. The poorest person in America lives a better live than an everage citizen in Cuba.


Cuban elections don't cost a single dollar to rise to the highest offices

Because they dont have elections there.




American racism and sexism are rampant

How so?


PS, your bigoted view of Arabs only confirms my suspicions: you're a vintage imperialist hack who has no respect for anyone outside the most flagrant reactionaries.

Actually that's not true, but go ahead and continue making stuff up.

[Magdalen]

It's not like they are innocent when children are taught to strap bombs to themselves because Israelis are all evil.




"Their land"....under communism the land belongs to everyone? The Palestinians wnt "their land" without the Israelis and aren't willing to share...



Innocent? And organizations like Hamas and PLO are only killing the "evil" israelis....



You're the piece of shit yourself, kiddo.





Sorry I read that wrong. I thought he suggested only kiling the oppressers (Fidel and Raul) and not the Communist Party members, even though the Communist Party members are treated better than the regular citizens.....




How can complex beings emerge from a single atom? The atomic properties of matter must have changed because we're not making any more humans that way....



He was justified killing everyone in that building when say, 94% (it's probably lower) agreed with Hitler? What about the 6% who didn't?



How is Isreal an apartheid system?




Oh, how silly of me to think they weren't "oppressed".




No actually it wasn't.




Yeah, shitty quality, but hey, it's FREE!!



I doubt that, but if it is true, that's American standards. The poorest person in America lives a better live than an everage citizen in Cuba.



Because they dont have elections there.





How so?



Actually that's not true, but go ahead and continue making stuff up.

I could spend all night refuting your ridiculous claims, but I know I'd been wasting my time. I'll just ask one question:

Why has this reactionary idiot not been banned yet?

[Elliot_R]

Wow, what a moron, yes?

[Magdalen]

Wow, what a moron, yes?

You're clearly not a socialist of any description, all you seem to do is pathetically slander the Cuban and Palestinian peoples and you openly place yourself on the side of US Imperialism and Zionism.

[Abluegreen7]

Paddy Ive been asking for this Reactionary banned for a while.

He compares Cuba to America. I kindly show him comparisons to other Carribean nations.

He posts stories that source to Forbes which has been proven false many times, Fidel offered to leave his position if any of this off shore money could be proven " If you can prove 1 million even 1 dollar I will leave my position immediatly".

He clearly insults the people.

Elliot you are a reactionary.

[Abluegreen7]

Finnaly he is restricted!

Thanks Moderator.

[Elliot_R]

You're clearly not a socialist of any description, all you seem to do is pathetically slander the Cuban and Palestinian peoples and you openly place yourself on the side of US Imperialism and Zionism.

I never once said I support American imperalism. Stop making shit up.

[Abluegreen7]

You do suppourt Imperialism when you source to Imperialist links.

[Elliot_R]

You do suppourt Imperialism when you source to Imperialist links.

I dont....

[Abluegreen7]

Then why are you insulting the Palestinian peoples efforts against Israel?

[Elliot_R]

Then why are you insulting the Palestinian peoples efforts against Israel?

Because they're killing innocent people, they're terrorists.

[Abluegreen7]

Now Elliot someone elses "Terrorist" is a Freedom Fighter.

The term Terrorist is very vauge. Can you elaborate as to why "Palestinians" are "terrorists"?

[Elliot_R]

Now Elliot someone elses "Terrorist" is a Freedom Fighter.

That's a load of crap. Killing people or causing harm to people is ending someone's freedom.


The term Terrorist is very vauge. Can you elaborate as to why "Palestinians" are "terrorists"?

Because they cause fear and harm to innocents.

[Abluegreen7]

But at the same time Isreali Commandos are causing fear and killing Civillans. Is it alright for Commandos to mindlessly murder Civillans.

There was a story once where Israeli soldiers threw a smoke grenade into a classroom filled with young children who were learning. The children ran out the room and tripped over the railing and broke bones. Is this not terrorism?

[Abluegreen7]

Here is a good website for all you racist against Palestinians.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[Abluegreen7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBIzu4YvnE

[Bud Struggle]

These bastards on both sides are going to have to live with one another.

Israel isn't going away--neither are the Parestinians. They can either just nake war forever or find peace--but neither are going away.

[Elliot_R]

There was a story once where Israeli soldiers threw a smoke grenade into a classroom filled with young children who were learning. The children ran out the room and tripped over the railing and broke bones. Is this not terrorism?

Yes that is terrorism if the children were not terrorists themselves (which is likely cosidering they are taught to kill). But you are ignoring what the palestianians are doing to the innocent Isreali citizens.

[Abluegreen7]

Read the website and watch the video.

[Abluegreen7]

Breakdown of Deaths


Israelis
Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html).)

123
Remember These Children (http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html)
1,050
Remember These Children (http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html)
Civilians* (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html#civ) Killed

723
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
2,224 - 3,146
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
People killed in the course of a targeted killing

1
386
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
People who were the object of a targeted killing

1
232
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
People killed on own land

577 (54.6%)
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
4,793 (98.6%)
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
People killed on others' land

480 (45.4%)
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)
69 (1.4%)
B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/)



Gaza Casualties
June 28 - October 27, 2006

Total Fatalities
247
Civilian Deaths
155
Deaths of Children
57
Total Wounded
996
Wounded Children
337 (34%)


Causes of Deaths of Israeli Soldiers
2005

Committed Suicide
30
Illness
14
Accidents
26
Terror Incidents
6


Source: Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/HP_0.html), Oct. 10, 2005, p. 6.
Note: The paper also reported that since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.

[Gleb]

Terrorists kill innocent people, soldiers kill and will kill even more innocent people. Suicide bombers kill a lot of innocent people, bombing sprees kill and will kill even more innocent people. Honestly, tell me, Eliot: where's the difference?
Western arrogance is really making me sick as some people really seem to think that all that matters is the welfare of the allmighty Caucasian race - Moslems, Asians, you can kill them as much as you like but when bomb activates and couple of hundred Caucasians fall dead, dear god, that's evil!¨

Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not giving any kind of sympathy to those terrorist fucktards, just stating that the American bureaucrats responsible for the crusade in the Middle East really don't have a much higher value in my eyes.

[Abluegreen7]

Goat did you like the website I posted.

[Abluegreen7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAMLWS-a5vc

[spice756]

The fighting with Israelis and Palestinians is do to imperialism not race or land ownership.They are a minoraty.

People do not like the US and Israel imperialism and have every right to fight it.

[Goose]

Oh bejeezus. What have I started? This guy would have gone away and wanked over some form of internet porn if I'd not started winding him up.

Honestly, he doesn't have the intelligence or knowledge to even justify amusing him.

I suspect if everyone just quietly backs away he will run off into a corner and buzz off the fact McCain seems to have overtaken that liberal darkie fella in the polls.

I'd love to meet the little shit in a backstreet though...

[Elliot_R]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities. But you seem to think the later is more valuable. Both are equal. But the site you posted seems inaccurate because the Isreali causalities are much lower than the Palestinians and that cannot be true.

[Abluegreen7]

Viva Farc-EP!

[spice756]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities. But you seem to think the later is more valuable. Both are equal. But the site you posted seems inaccurate because the Isreali causalities are much lower than the Palestinians and that cannot be true.

Even capitalism lovers know this is not true.Why are you so anti-Palestinian ?


I'm not saying what they are doing there is right they both should just stop .But see the war is over imperialism not race or land ownership.

[Gleb]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities. But you seem to think the later is more valuable. Both are equal. But the site you posted seems inaccurate because the Isreali causalities are much lower than the Palestinians and that cannot be true.

Now that's bullshit.

[Goose]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities.

You fucking what? Do you want to come to mine while I kick the living shit out of you or shall I come to yours? Mate.

[Sendo]

I thought this was a discussion on "cuba"

[Goose]

Yes.



But when and how ddi it all start?



it should be added as a possibility, along with others.




And not everyone in Germany agred with Hitler.



But I would never kill innocent people, no matter the cirumstances. Isreal has the right to exist. There's many muslim states where they can all be immoral.



The Palestians would not leave Isreal alone. How is that too difficult to do? Most of the (terrorist) palestians do deserve to die, so it is justified as they not innocent.



I wondered it wrong. Harming murderers, etc is okay. I meant to say anyone who could potentially harm INNOCENT people.

I realise, and apologise, that I largely started this little prick going, but why, on a purely selfish level, am I still not allowed my avatar? I would pick some of his nonsense apart, but I see he's been restricted, and I've not been back on here for ages anyway as I began to despair.

[Sentinel]

You fucking what? Do you want to come to mine while I kick the living shit out of you or shall I come to yours? Mate.

I understand that you are upset, but please keep the discussion civil.

[Vendetta]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities. But you seem to think the later is more valuable. Both are equal. But the site you posted seems inaccurate because the Isreali causalities are much lower than the Palestinians and that cannot be true.

Wow.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I do claim Isreali causalities are worth more than Palestinian causalities. But you seem to think the later is more valuable. Both are equal.

Compare the bolded parts. Contradiction much?