5 Reasons to oppose the death penalty - interesting informat

[RedCeltic]

I recived this literature from a rally I was at today against the death penalty and thought I would share it with you and see what opinions are on this. It's mostly about New York State, but has good info.

The United States is one of a handfull of counteries which still execute people. There are currently more than 3,500 people on death row - more than an time in US history.

Since 1976, more than 600 people have been executed in the US over 50% of those persons have been killed since 1992. More than 75% of all executions, since 1976 took place in Southern States. Both Democrat and Republican parties have created a "get tough" climate which can only mean more executions. It's time to take a stand against captial punishment.

In 1999, Illinois Governer George Ryan imposed a moratorium on teh death penalty, after thirteen innocent people were released from illinois death row.

Thomas Kimbell became the 101st innocent person on death row to be cleared of charges and freed. May 4, 2002

Maryland Governer imposes moratorium on executions to explore racial bias May 9, 2002

US Supreme Court declares it is unconstitutional to execute people with mental retardation May 9, 2002

US Supreme Court rules it is unconstitutional for a judge, instead of a jury of peers, to determin a death penalty sentance. This decisiion impacts 800 sentances in nine states. June 24, 2002

Florida Supreme Court Stays two executions in review wether their state death penalty is constitutional July 9, 2002

Federal Death penalty is ruled "unconstitutional" according to Federal District Court judge Jed Rakoff in New York June 2002

The following are five reasons wy you should oppose the death penalty and how you can get involved in the fight to end it.

1) Innocent people are sentaenced to death.

Since 1973, at least 101 prisoners in the US have been released from death row after evidence of their innocence was uncovered. The US Supreme Court has ruled that it is not unconstitutional to execute someone who may be innocent Herrera 1992 At least 23 innocent where executed in the US during 1900-1950. Eight of them in New York!

2) The death Penalty does not deter crime

No reputable study has ever shown that the death penalty prevents murder. New York's violent crime rate began falling in 1991- four years before the death penalty was reinstated and seven years before the first death sentance.

3) The Death Penalty is expensive


The death penalty has cost New York state at least 100 million dollars since it was reinstated.

4) The Death Penalty is riddled with errors

Between 1973 and 1995 68% of the death sentances where overturned on appeal because serious legal errors. In another 7% the defendant was found not guilty.

5) The Death Penalty discriminates aganst people who are poor and non-white.

95% of those on death row in the US could not afford their own lawyer. 84% of those on death rown have been convicted of killing a white person- even though African Americans and whites are victoms of murder in roughly equal numbers.

.

[Liberty Lover]

Agreed. Capital punishment is flawed and fucked.

[synthesis]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 6:26 am on Mar. 26, 2003
Agreed. Capital punishment is flawed and fucked.
Just when you figured you had a guy down ;)

[Chiak47]

Good info.I agree with some but alot of it is horsecrap.


More than 75% of those on dederal death row are non-white.
Well minorities commit more crime than whites.Even though they make up a smaller populationI'm not racist by no means.I'm telling the truth.
Fix that-how?Get them off drugs and more involved in schools.Education is the key to their dilema.Pure and simple.I know several black and hispanic men and women that pulled themselves out of the slums to make something out of themselves.
Being poor is a cop-out.It's a different time now.

OK I really should have broke my view on death row down.

1st-the system now is crap.
2nd-Only 100% guilty-no doubt about it-should be killed.
3rd-It should only be used for the most sadistic crimes imaginable

[Hodgo]

Good post. Another reason I oppose the death penalty is because its totally hypocritical. The state CANNOT claim to condemn murder if they practice it themselves.

[Chiak47]

homo,I bet your 100% for abortion though right?
Its a womans choice...Choice?To kill a baby or not?

So the most sadistic motherfucker in this world,someone who would rip the heads off kids while shooting his load in em should not be put down like a savage beast?
What about someone who busts in a old womans house and beats her to a seconds worth of life just to keep her alive to "give her the fuck of her life".

I could go on but hopefully you get my point.I mean save it for people that can not be brought back into society.

[von Mises]

1) The problem with this argument is that although we uphold the sanctity of human life, this is only theory. In practise we kill innocent people in wars, allow women to abort their child and so on.

2) The fact that it doesn't deter crime is the same with life imprisonment. A lot of different studies have agreed that the chance to get caught by the police and get convicted is much more important.

3) I suppose you are against capital punishment in every country but unfortunately this argument probably lacks universal application. Secondly, from a utilitarian point of view, one can argue that society is pleased with the value it is getting for its capital punishment dollar.

4) Legal errors doesn't mean someone isn't guilty.

I would have suspected a more philosofical approach but your arguments are not against capital punishment but merely telling us that the US justice system is rotten.

But all this doesn't mean that I am in favour of this punishment ;)

[RedFW]

The problem with this argument is that although we uphold the sanctity of human life, this is only theory. In practise we kill innocent people in wars, allow women to abort their child and so on.

Yes, I forgot, for one second, that a fetus is far more important than the life of the woman carrying it. http://politics.host.sk/discussion/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Hampton]

Well minorities commit more crime than whites.Even though they make up a smaller populationI'm not racist by no means.I'm telling the truth. Fix that-how? Get them off drugs and more involved in schools.Education is the key to their dilema.Pure and simple.I know several black and hispanic men and women that pulled themselves out of the slums to make something out of themselves.
Being poor is a cop-out.It's a different time now.

Bullshit. When you say that minorities commit more crimes you fail to look at lots of other reasons why blacks make up most of the prison population. Racist cops, racist judges, public defenerds who don't give a shit about their clients.

Notice how RedCeltic's post said nothing about drugs but when you mention blacks in prison you assume that they are addicts. Tell me that's not a racist stereotype. Get them off drugs, eh? Easier said than done when the government isn't trying to get them of the street and there isn't hardly enough places to get rehab. School is joke for most and you know it. Why do you think so many kids drop out of school so they don't have to deal with a white washed version of learning, bullshit rules, and teachers who don't give a fuck. Also when it is so much easier to go out on the corner and sell the drugs to get all the things that they see others have but they are to poor. And they can make in a day what they make in a week earning 5.75 at some crappy job.

What's up with this: Although studies such as the Health and Human Services National Household Survey show that the majority of people who use and sell drugs are white, African-Americans and Latinos comprise about 94% of the drug offenders in New York State prisons: African Americans, 51.2%; Latinos, 42.5%; whites, 5.4%.

[von Mises]

Quote: from RedFW on 4:48 pm on Mar. 26, 2003

The problem with this argument is that although we uphold the sanctity of human life, this is only theory. In practise we kill innocent people in wars, allow women to abort their child and so on.

Yes, I forgot, for one second, that a fetus is far more important than the life of the woman carrying it. http://politics.host.sk/discussion/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


It just depends on what your definition of life is.

[El Che]

I only have one reason to oppose it. In my mind it is the only valid one.

[glasgowche81]

I dont understand this.

No matter what someone's definition of life actually is, it is hard to imagine any case where a pregnant woman would be outside that definition of life.

The important thing here is whether we define an embryo as life or not. Now I dont know the answer to that, however what I do know is that if abortion was to be illegal, then back street abortions would happen. there would be a market for them to exist.

Now if you consider that an feotus (sp?) is a life, then what would you prefer. A scenario where a pregnant woman wished to get rid of her child in the safest possible envirnoment with all the medical equipment and advice she requires, or a scenario where a woman depserately wishing an abortion recieves one illegally, without the proper medical attention and advice available, therefore not only will the life of the feotus will be lost (if you think that way) but also the life of the woman herself could also be lost.

Not only this, but if abortion were illegal in the US, UK or ireland or wherever, the richest people could always go somewhere else to where it is legal. Air fares are not such an obstacle. However those who are poorer cannot, which means that in many cases their only option would be the afore mentioned 'backstreet' abortion. Thats whay such a pragmatic approach to abortion is the correct way forward.

something I would like to ask all those in the discussion who are opposed to abortion, are you for or against contraception. I'll come back if one of you would be good enough to share your views on this subject.

[Anonymous]

I believe the constitution condones capital punishment.


"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." -- 5th Amendment

The government is allowed to deprive someone of his/her life so long as due process of law is fallowed.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 5:27 am on Mar. 27, 2003)

[Hodgo]

For anyone who doubts that innocent people can recieve the death penatly, check out www.wm3.org for a disturbing case of injustice.

Chiak, the fact that you keep calling me "Homo" because I disagree with your opinions just goes to show what a witless, infantile little fuck you are.

As far as your "argument" goes: Im am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. I dont have a whomb, and therefor Im in no position to tell a woman what to do with hers. I dont want to see abortion made illegal because I dont want to see backstreet abortions with coathangers or rusty knives. And in cases like rape, or cases where the woman is too poor to feed her child or too irresponsible to adequately raise it, I can understand why abortions might be necassary. What I find funny are the so-called "pro-life" activists who murder abortion doctors. If you think its hypocritical to condemn the death penalty and advocate pro-life, what the hell do you call these fucks? They say abortions murder, then they murder doctors! It'd serve these fucks right if they suffer a heart attack right in front of the house of one of the doctors they killed, with the knowledge that the doctor could have come out and saved their life if they hadnt of killed them.

I can understand your point about sick fucks who kill kids and beat old women, but I still think murder as a retaliation to murder is hypocritical, as Gandhi put it, "an eye for an eye only ends up making the world blind".

As far as Im concerned, let em rot in jail for ever. This way they cant hurt anyone except each other, some people say "yeah, but they're costing taxpayers money", but Bush is a bigger threat to the taxpayers in the US right now than any of these fucks.

[synthesis]

some people say "yeah, but they're costing taxpayers money",

Actually, it costs more money to give someone the death penalty than it does to give them lifetime imprisonment.

[canikickit]

Actually, it costs more money to give someone the death penalty than it does to give them lifetime imprisonment.

How exactly does that work, anyway?

[synthesis]

http://thomasash.hypermart.net/politicsand...pexpensive.html (http://thomasash.hypermart.net/politicsandsociety/kangas-capitalpexpensive.html)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 6:26 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
I believe the constitution condones capital punishment.


"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." -- 5th Amendment

The government is allowed to deprive someone of his/her life so long as due process of law is fallowed.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 5:27 am on Mar. 27, 2003)


You would be wrong.

[Hodgo]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 3:42 am on Mar. 27, 2003
http://thomasash.hypermart.net/politicsand...pexpensive.html (http://thomasash.hypermart.net/politicsandsociety/kangas-capitalpexpensive.html)


Thanks for the link, mate, I knew that, and it really does go to show that capital punishment is not only immoral and hypocritical, but also counter-productive from an economic perspective as well.

[RedFW]

It just depends on what your definition of life is.

No, it doesn't. A fetus depends upon the life of a woman for survival. I should think her life is pretty damn important.

[synthesis]

Thanks for the link, mate, I knew that, and it really does go to show that capital punishment is not only immoral and hypocritical, but also counter-productive from an economic perspective as well. I figured you knew that, comrade, I just thought I'd take up your case ;)

[Dhul Fiqar]

As an interesting sidenote, increasing the prison population also has no practical effect on crime. I recently read a couple of studies that concluded that on average since the sixties it has taken a 25% rise in prison population to produce ONE PERCENT of decrease in reported crime!

Which brings us to the thorny issue of what is "crime". You'll find that there are administrative procedures in place that fall outside the scope of the traditional criminal justice system when it comes to crimes committed primarily by whites, such as stock market violations (this is particularly true in England).

Our very definition of "crime" is in a very large part constructed around the most visible crimes, that are by definition almost always committed by the most vulnerable groups with the least access to "the good stuff" in society (for lack of a better word).

So basically the whole modern concept of crime being a inner-street phenomenon is racist and 'classist' so to speak. The fact is that a lot of people who try to argue the social harms of street crime (which no one is trying to deny) do not ackownledge the far greater impact that is had by so called white-collar violations that either go unnoticed of underpunished because of the priviledged postions of those individuals.

In fact the white and powerful should require more stringent policing, because they are more capable of evading the law.

--- G.

[Hodgo]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 10:15 am on Mar. 27, 2003

Thanks for the link, mate, I knew that, and it really does go to show that capital punishment is not only immoral and hypocritical, but also counter-productive from an economic perspective as well. I figured you knew that, comrade, I just thought I'd take up your case ;)


Again, thanks, I actualy couldnt find a link to support it, and its definately something the right-wingers have a hard time dealing with :).

[von Mises]

No, it doesn't. A fetus depends upon the life of a woman for survival. I should think her life is pretty damn important.

So what's your point? A baby also has to depend on others to get food, and we all agree that a baby falls under the definition of life.

I think I have to repeat what I said before
[quote]3) I suppose you are against capital punishment in every country but unfortunately this argument probably lacks universal application. Secondly, from a utilitarian point of view, one can argue that society is pleased with the value it is getting for its capital punishment dollar.[quote]

Although in the US the cost may be higher, that doesn't have to be the case in China.

[RedCeltic]

Von Mises


I think you're full of crap. I fully pointed out that this literature was talking captial punishment in New York.


1) The problem with this argument is that although we uphold the sanctity of human life, this is only theory. In practise we kill innocent people in wars, allow women to abort their child and so on.


So, because people die in wars, it's ok for innocent people to be put to death by the state? Who's taking about the "Sanctety of life?" We are talking about the possibility of killing someone who didn't do anything wrong.

2) The fact that it doesn't deter crime is the same with life imprisonment. A lot of different studies have agreed that the chance to get caught by the police and get convicted is much more important.

So your answer is what? Stormtroopers patroling the streets who execute on the spot?

3) I suppose you are against capital punishment in every country but unfortunately this argument probably lacks universal application. Secondly, from a utilitarian point of view, one can argue that society is pleased with the value it is getting for its capital punishment dollar.

This was taken from literature about captial punishment in NEW YORK STATE and has nothing to do with CHINA I think it's fairly clear.

4) Legal errors doesn't mean someone isn't guilty.

It means too much money is being poured into a system where guilty may get off due to "Legal errors" and an unwillingness to convict if subject to the death pentalty.

Again, I'm talking about NEW YORK where the public are mostly against the death penalty, and rarely find in favor of it's use.


Those where perhaps the weakest arguements in support of state sponsored murder I've seen yet.

[von Mises]

If so, my arguments aren't crap, and your arguments are only true for NY and not for let''s say Florida.


Those where perhaps the weakest arguements in support of state sponsored murder I've seen yet

Are they really? So far I have only read your arguments as if they were answers to some case at a business school.

Clearly you have never thought or read about what has been written about the pro's and con's of the death penalty. Or even the basics of normal conversation.

Do you only post these things to show other people your moral is superiour to theirs and that it needn't be discussed since there is no point?

[RedFW]

So what's your point? A baby also has to depend on others to get food, and we all agree that a baby falls under the definition of life.

A baby can be picked up and fed by anyone. Breast milk can be pumped and put into a bottle or it can be fed with formula. A fetus cannot be transplanted and depends upon a woman's body for survival. The sanctity of her life and the validity of the choice to terminate a pregnancy or carry it to term is what should be protected.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from von Mises on 11:05 am on Mar. 27, 2003
If so, my arguments aren't crap, and your arguments are only true for NY and not for let''s say Florida.


Those where perhaps the weakest arguements in support of state sponsored murder I've seen yet

Are they really? So far I have only read your arguments as if they were answers to some case at a business school.

Clearly you have never thought or read about what has been written about the pro's and con's of the death penalty. Or even the basics of normal conversation.

Do you only post these things to show other people your moral is superiour to theirs and that it needn't be discussed since there is no point?


again as I said in my first post this was taken directly from literature handed out at a anti-death pentaly rally.

The points made where made to NEW YORK voters about the NEW YORK death pentalty. In Florida most people are probobly blood thirsty animals, but in New York, most people are against the death pentalty, even those that think it's good to have as a deterant, don't advocate use of it.

My personal argument against the death pentalty is basicly the STATE has no right to tell someone if they sould live or die.


RedFW If you want to talk about abortion start another thread please.

The prison system and captial punishment is just another aspect of how the wealthy class seek to keep the rest of us in line.

[Chiak47]

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/weird_thread.gif

[Invader Zim]

This reminds me of a case i read about a few years ago. It occured in the 60's in the UK. Two kids broke into a building. Someone called the cops. Any way the cops confrunted them on top of the roof. One of the kids said give it to them. A shot was fired and a police officer was killed.

However when the Kid said give it to them he claimed he meant give the GUN to them not shoot them. Also their is evidence to suggest that the kid never fired the shot any way. Apparently the gun was a piece of shit and did not have the accuracy to hit someone at the range it was at. Their is also evidence to suggest that the Cops planted evidence as well. But the biggest thing is that it is suggested it may have been a police bullet that did the dammage and not the kids.

The kid who fired (supposedly) the shot was under age so he was not prosicuted however the other kid (who had actualy been arrested before the shot was fired by about 10 minutes) was exicuted, even though he was retarded and only had the mental age of a 12 year old.

That case is probably the main reason the death sentance was repealed in the UK because of the massive public opinion it caused.

[von Mises]

My personal argument against the death pentalty is basicly the STATE has no right to tell someone if they sould live or die.

Ok, but every person has a fundamental right to live, and it is also morally wrong that if someone hurts me the state can force me to pay for his (life time) imprisonment.

But if a state hasn't got the right to tell you to live or die, why has it got the right to for instance force you to pay for welfare, a massive defense system, only eat non genetically modified corn etc etc?


The prison system and captial punishment is just another aspect of how the wealthy class seek to keep the rest of us in line

Oh please........

So is the state sponsored educational system, want to abolish this as well?

[truthaddict11]

RedCeltic . In Florida most people are probobly blood thirsty animals
Unfortunatly you are right, this past election my state (Florida) voted FOR executing 16 year olds.I voted against this barbaric proposition. I get pissed whenever Jeb executes another person.