Can a socialist state be founded in the US without bloodshed

[kelvin90701]

No.

Think of your average gun nut in this country? Right wing. Staunch anti-communist, anti-tax, anti-big government, anti-social in general (the personality not the economic theory).

Try to establish a socialist state and every gun nut will be hunting commies with deer rifles. The commies know this and will try and disarm you. It is the liberal left in this country that is enacting social programs at the same time restricting firearms. But that is all really just a prediction of the future.

I would like to challenge the Communist to try model the establishment of socialist state. Can it be done without bloodshed? I would just like to see your vision a future for Americans. I am not interested in the academic model after socialism is established, I am interested in the model of how the revolution will take place.

[Chiak47]

I tell you this.With the influx of anti-Americanism these days it's best to find your true friends now.

1 other thing.There is no way it will come in a form of revolution.Most Americans are looking for a handout and the goverment is quick for the vote.
If it does come It will come in stages.No blood shed.
Alliances are forming now.

btw good thread.I'm interested in the reds views on this one.

[kelvin90701]

My friend is an AR-15 and pair of .45s. I don't propose the hunting of commies, but just like crime, just the possibility of an armed citizen fighting back may be insentive enough to hold back commies for a little while.

[Just Joe]

you've already put this thread here. it was disproved right away with the fact that most far lefters are not opposed to guns.

you've just made a generalisation with no proof to back it up.

PS why start this thread when there is another one that you could've continued?

[sc4r]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 5:53 am on Mar. 25, 2003
No.

Try to establish a socialist state and every gun nut will be hunting commies with deer rifles. The commies know this and will try and disarm you. It is the liberal left in this country that is enacting social programs at the same time restricting firearms. But that is all really just a prediction of the future.



God this is so dumb it defies believe. Assuming for one second that there was sufficient will or force for a socialist revolution to take plave in the states do you think for one second we would be concerned by people wielding deer rifles. get real; if we could manage to overcome the US army I dont think somehow a few rednecks with their personal arsenals are going to keep us awake at night in fear.

The US will never become socialist through revolution; neither will any other established country. It will become socialsist through a gradual process of increasing social policies PROVIDED democracy is not so fully subverted that this is imposible to achieve. Its a long way off and at the moment the tide is against genuine democracy in the USA. What will turn it ? If I knew I'd hardly tell you now would I boy. But I will say that Shrub's foreighn policy approach is probably helpful to us.

(Edited by sc4r at 1:02 pm on Mar. 25, 2003)

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:12 pm on Mar. 25, 2003
you've already put this thread here. it was disproved right away with the fact that most far lefters are not opposed to guns.

you've just made a generalisation with no proof to back it up.

PS why start this thread when there is another one that you could've continued?


I can not prove or disprove the future. What is your vision of how a communist revolution will take place in the future? Chiak answered that one, you did not.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 1:04 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:12 pm on Mar. 25, 2003
you've already put this thread here. it was disproved right away with the fact that most far lefters are not opposed to guns.

you've just made a generalisation with no proof to back it up.

PS why start this thread when there is another one that you could've continued?


I can not prove or disprove the future. What is your vision of how a communist revolution will take place in the future? Chiak answered that one, you did not.


************************************************** ***********************
Quote: from Just Joe on 11:25 pm on Mar. 23, 2003
i think you've been watching too many conspiricy theory movies.

i an umoja are both Socialists and we favour guns; we think there a right citizens should have. if youre theory was correct, how do you account for Socialists favouring guns?



I believe that really a blanket statement that is not really true. I am very happy to hear you do favor firearms ownership. Socialist in
Canada, UK, and Austrialia have restricted firearms. Socialist (although they don't call themselves that) in the USA are attempting to do that.

Communist conspiracy? Probably no, but the liberals in this country are priming the USA for an armed rebellion. They need taxes to support thier social programs at the same time trying to restrict firearms.
************************************************** ***********************

Just Joe:

From the above snipet I believe you made the generalization.

[Ghost Writer]

I believe a socialist state has already been imposed to a large extent, although it might be more accurately decsribed as welfarism. The logical conclusion of this rapid erosion is a socialist state. It might be implemented in America without great bloodshed, we all know that socialist states will inevitabley resort to brutality to enforce their failed measures. Therefore, I must conclude that socialism can never happen without a large degree of bloodshed, as a precursor, a result, or both.

[kelvin90701]

GW:

I beg to differ. Chiak just offerred a different solution. I have changed my mind. Yes it can happen without bloodshed. Although I would have to imagine that all the "gun nuts" I talked about would have to be disarmed and lulled into acceptance. I still believe a "class struggle" with firearms is more likely. That is why I don't believe Chiak solution will be likely, but it can happen.

Another challenge to the commies. What about the "class struggle" ? Is it with firearms and bloodshed? If the revolution takes place just as Chiak offers, then is it more like "class co-operation"? But what about Marxist theory? If that part is wrong, could it be all wrong? or more of it?

[Ghost Writer]

Although I would have to imagine that all the "gun nuts" I talked about would have to be disarmed and lulled into acceptance.

How is that accomplished without bloodshed? How can disarmament occur without the threat of force? Doesn't this necessarily entail using an army? Don't you think that some resistance will be met by those doing the disarming? Remember the rallying cry of Charleton Heston, "From my cold dead hands"?

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Ghost Writer on 1:41 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

Although I would have to imagine that all the "gun nuts" I talked about would have to be disarmed and lulled into acceptance.

How is that accomplished without bloodshed? How can disarmament occur without the threat of force? Doesn't this necessarily entail using an army? Don't you think that some resistance will be met by those doing the disarming? Remember the rallying cry of Charleton Heston, "From my cold dead hands"?

After I saw that one, I wanted to add a flint lock rifle to my collection. I will save a solution to your question for a commie.

Also I would like my class struggle question answered by a commie.

(Edited by kelvin90701 at 1:50 pm on Mar. 25, 2003)

[Just Joe]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 1:04 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:12 pm on Mar. 25, 2003
you've already put this thread here. it was disproved right away with the fact that most far lefters are not opposed to guns.

you've just made a generalisation with no proof to back it up.

PS why start this thread when there is another one that you could've continued?


I can not prove or disprove the future. What is your vision of how a communist revolution will take place in the future? Chiak answered that one, you did not.


i don't think one will. if it did, it'd be through the third world. the American working class is a labour aristocracy at the moment. it lives of the labour of the third world. if these cheap goods and products from the third world were taken away from American people, they might have a different attitude to capitalism. as it is, every time a left leaning or socialist government is set up in the third world, the US topples it. but we know what the price of imperialism is. the US is paying for it now. there interventionist foreign policy cannot last.

but to answer the question of how, i think it would be very much like a Serbian situation; though public pressure. i don't think it would turn into all out civil war in America.

[kelvin90701]

But is that the way Marx predicted it would happen?

[VC]

If there is a communist revolution in America I don't think that communists would feel threatened by a few rednecks and their pea-shooters. We live in age of weapons of mass destruction. How can your guns compete with weapons of mass destruction? This isn't 1776 anymore.

The communists wouldn't have to take control of America by force. The Nazis didn't take control of Germany by force. The Nazis were voted into office.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from VC on 3:45 pm on Mar. 25, 2003
If there is a communist revolution in America I don't think that communists would feel threatened by a few rednecks and their pea-shooters. We live in age of weapons of mass destruction. How can your guns compete with weapons of mass destruction? This isn't 1776 anymore.

The communists wouldn't have to take control of America by force. The Nazis didn't take control of Germany by force. The Nazis were voted into office.



In a USA communist revolution. The commies have to live in the same communities as the gun nuts. They would merely shoot you threw a window while you are having dinner.

[VC]

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 4:30 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

In a USA communist revolution. The commies have to live in the same communities as the gun nuts. They would merely shoot you threw a window while you are having dinner.

Shoot me throught the window while I'm having dinner? A weak argument. Private ownership of firearms has been very common in Iraq for generations. It hasn't kept the Iraqis safe from political tyranny. Sadam Hussein has evaded being shot. He rarely appears in public. When addressesing the public he often uses a lookalike to avoid assassination.

[sc4r]

Another challenge to the commies. What about the "class struggle" ? Is it with firearms and bloodshed? If the revolution takes place just as Chiak offers, then is it more like "class co-operation"? But what about Marxist theory? If that part is wrong, could it be all wrong? or more of it?


I think from this that you dont even understand what the calss struggle is. I have the feeling you imagine it as something like the Frech revolution with the Aristicarcy foerever branded as such.

Socialist class comes from ownership of the means of production. Put this (by democratic means by all means) in the hands of the people and there is no class.All you do is legislate and voila it is so because property ownership is only mainatained by laws in the first place.

The only bloodshed needed is against those who wont accept law and insist on instigating it themseleves.

(Edited by sc4r at 9:16 pm on Mar. 25, 2003)

[Chiak47]

think for one second we would be concerned by people wielding deer rifles. get real; if we could manage to overcome the US army I dont think somehow a few rednecks with their personal arsenals are going to keep us awake at night in fear.

Yea there is a chance commies could take over the US military..http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/barf.gif

I bet you do not know that almost all of the military votes Republican.Why cause the liberal democraps try to short them every which way possible.

A few rednecks?80,000,000 gunowners in the USA and we are a few rednecks?
Try this link.
www.pinkpistols.com
are they rednecks also?

next lie please.

[sc4r]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 9:18 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

think for one second we would be concerned by people wielding deer rifles. get real; if we could manage to overcome the US army I dont think somehow a few rednecks with their personal arsenals are going to keep us awake at night in fear.

Yea there is a chance commies could take over the US military..http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/barf.gif

I bet you do not know that almost all of the military votes Republican.Why cause the liberal democraps try to short them every which way possible.

A few rednecks?80,000,000 gunowners in the USA and we are a few rednecks?
Try this link.
www.pinkpistols.com
are they rednecks also?

next lie please.


Learn what the word lie means, you will find it in dictionaries.

There are gun owners who are not rednecks (where did I say otherwise ?). I think You'd find that oif 80,000,000 people were actually violently opposed to socialism it would not get elected in the first place so what exactly are you getting at ? Answer - nothing. Like all your kind you attack problems and positions that only exist in your own fevered imagination.

And yes I did know that the military overwhelmingly votes republican. So ? In your uninformed brain you might imagine that I feel some sort of fellow feeling towards democrates, you are wrong. To me the diffference between a democrat and a republican is just the words on the banner; the difference in policy is so slim as to be invisible to me.

Would I personally welcome it if all the rabid right wing types actually didi decide to make a violent fight of it after democratic election of a socialist government. You betcha, it would simplify things in the future no end.


(Edited by sc4r at 9:27 pm on Mar. 25, 2003)

[Just Joe]

there is absolutly no point to this thread at all. it is generalisations being answered with generalisations. its all baseless opinion.

if 80,000,000 in the US didn't want Socialism, it wouldn't happen. you saying most gun owners are anti-Communist really means nothing. aside from it being unproven, it doesn't matter because most of the population of America do not support Communism. you then claim that this is why Socialists want to dis-arm Americans. again, unproven. but the fact is, most Jews in America are anti-Communist, does this mean 'the left wing' wants to silence Jews? using youre logic, yes they would. but as i've stated, your logic is flawed at best.

the above post is not me meaning to sound like an ass. just stating the facts. youre generalising about gun owners and what Socialism is in general. gun ownership rights are a seperate issue that i doubt is ideologically motivated for anyone. there are ant-gun people on the right, and pro-gun people on the left. end of.

(Edited by Just Joe at 12:51 am on Mar. 26, 2003)

[Chiak47]

I never met a anti-gun person on the right.
I travel the circuits throughout America.I have two gun dealers in my family that I have worked for personally in the past.

Back to the post at hand.The Bill Clintons of this country will sell us down that road.
They come of all sweet and innocent at first then they turn into evil beings as time passes.

One of The worst thing to happen to this country was to put a term limit on many offices.If it works why change it?

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from VC on 8:33 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

Quote: from kelvin90701 on 4:30 pm on Mar. 25, 2003

In a USA communist revolution. The commies have to live in the same communities as the gun nuts. They would merely shoot you threw a window while you are having dinner.

Shoot me throught the window while I'm having dinner? A weak argument. Private ownership of firearms has been very common in Iraq for generations. It hasn't kept the Iraqis safe from political tyranny. Sadam Hussein has evaded being shot. He rarely appears in public. When addressesing the public he often uses a lookalike to avoid assassination.


I am not talking about Communist leadership when I say "shot threw a window". The communist most likely shot while having dinner will be communist like you.

[kelvin90701]

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:51 am on Mar. 26, 2003
there is absolutly no point to this thread at all. it is generalisations being answered with generalisations. its all baseless opinion.
(Edited by Just Joe at 12:51 am on Mar. 26, 2003)


Do I need to remind you about generalizations again?

i an umoja are both Socialists and we favour guns; we think there a right citizens should have. if youre theory was correct, how do you account for Socialists favouring guns?"- Joe



Socialist? Some socialist? A few socialist? All Socialist.

I repeat that really is a blanket statement you cannot prove.

[Just Joe]

which is why i said this thread was being answered with generalisations.

i don't know how many Socialists favour guns. certainly most if not all Marxists would favour them as Marxism is revolutionary or its nothing. i guess the 'centre left' would be the political group most opposed to guns. some righties are against them. well maybe not righties, but capitalists.

in conclusion,

do all Socialists favour anti-gun legistlation? no
do those who favour it, do it so when revolution comes there will be no resistance? emphatically no
is there any point to this thread carrying on? no

[Subcomandante Marcos]

there is no way a socialist goverment will raise inside the u$, there will have to be a radical change of mid by the Americans

First of all the average american is influenced by the media, and the media is controlled by the CIA, and the CIA is controlled by selffish rights. Its a circle

[Chiak47]

Holy tinfoil
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

Hey Subhuman Marcos The sky is falling the sky is falling.

[VC]

I actually think that commies want guns. They want guns because guns are political power. Commies just don't want anybody else to have guns.
It's the same with Nazis. They want to disarm everybody except themselves. The Revolutionary Communist Party talks about an armed revolutionary. I'll bet they are arming themselves and stockpiling weapons in preparation to overthrow the US government.