i am starting to get confused and pissed

[danyboy27]

seriously, i am starting to getting really confused about politics and i am about to throw every notion i know by the windows, like right now.
the more i read about the the less its actually clear.

why the stuff is not simplier?? i mean, do i need to read all the fucking marxist tehories to figure out what i am really suporting?

I SUPPORT SOCIAL ADVANCEMENT period.
i support a better implication of the state into social advancement.

is it that fucking complicated? but if i support free market there is gonna be a shitload of people that gonna drop million of marxist teories about how wrong i am, and there is gonna be a shitload of people telling me that the soviet union i actually loved what a degenerated worker state.

seriously, why this shit is soo complicated?

[Dean]

seriously, i am starting to getting really confused about politics and i am about to throw every notion i know by the windows, like right now.
the more i read about the the less its actually clear.
Its important not to beat yourself up over it. A lot of theories are hard to relate to the reader clearly and distinctly, and need to be taken as they appear to you. I once read an wntire book and only understood it about 3/4 of the way through, at which point I loved it so much I went back and reread the whole thing. Try, but don't blame yourself for not understanding something.


why the stuff is not simplier?? i mean, do i need to read all the fucking marxist tehories to figure out what i am really suporting?
Of course not. You shouldn't have to read anything else to know waht you support. Literature should just serve to reinforce, criticise and bring out what you already know. There is a reason that the Latin root for education is e ducere, "to bring out."


I SUPPORT SOCIAL ADVANCEMENT period.
i support a better implication of the state into social advancement.

is it that fucking complicated? but if i support free market there is gonna be a shitload of people that gonna drop million of marxist teories about how wrong i am, and there is gonna be a shitload of people telling me that the soviet union i actually loved what a degenerated worker state.

seriously, why this shit is soo complicated?

Some people that support free markets do mean good. But the fact is that capitalism is a destructive force, as it is rooted in competition. Humans do not do well as competitive creatures; we need a sense of oneness with each other, and so the best mode of production and social organization is associative (socially aware/interested).

You should always be willing to criticse your own prejudices. This is critical. Do not hold these ideas close to your heart until you have formulated them coherently and they have withstood years of criticsm from yourself and others. For such issues, you need to fine tune them until you can really devote yourself to their defense. Even then, such ideas need to be ever analyzed and critiqued so that yo uknow why you think them and what underlying ambitions drive you to have them. This can shatter your ideas, reinforce them, or introduce new, deeper understandings. But criticising your own ideas should never make you feel personally criticised. If yo udo feel that way, you have a lot of work to do with yourself.

[Hiero]

The world is complicated. So naturally when we try to explain such things it does get complicated.

I think you need find first some points of reference, then you can sort of use that point to work out other more complicated things.

The problem is you still have to read alot to find it. I must admit that I read alot of stuff and never really understood it, but as things began to mass in my head, and I got some basic ideas, or points of reference and I started to understand the other stuff I have read. Now if I want to expand I usually know where to look.

[mikelepore]

If you feel confused and overwhelmed, maybe you should try to write a chart -- the "free market", list three advantages and three disadvantages, "central planning", list three advantages and three disadvantages, etc. Add new options as you hear them suggested by others. Also, for each entry you make, in parenthesis, answer: how do you really know this statement is true? Or did you merely hear it asserted by others?

[danyboy27]

If you feel confused and overwhelmed, maybe you should try to write a chart -- the "free market", list three advantages and three disadvantages, "central planning", list three advantages and three disadvantages, etc. Add new options as you hear them suggested by others. Also, for each entry you make, in parenthesis, answer: how do you really know this statement is true? Or did you merely hear it asserted by others?


well i already took some time to think about that and that there is some serious point i am sure, and free market is one of them. good gestion of the governement is another, and the intervention of the state into society in order to make it more humaine is another. i am not a full blown libertarian that think we should do whaever we want. i support all society that assure to their people a better life, socialist or not.
i believe in nationalism, i dont think its bad, its just important to dose it correctly.

so far, i am sure of all those points.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

What attracts you to nationalism, spetnaz?

I find the concept of nations somewhat arbitrary, personally.

-Alex

[Oneironaut]

i believe in nationalism, i dont think its bad, its just important to dose it correctly.

you may want to think about the implications of being a nationalist and how nationalism pertains to socialism. the two are not conducive to one another. we are not trying to create a one nation republic, our goals are larger in scale. we want to shatter the current system (including the conception of a nation).

[Forward Union]

What attracts you to nationalism, spetnaz?

I find the concept of nations somewhat arbitrary, personally.

-Alex

I define a nation as a grouping of people with a common cultural and liguistic heritage. I dont think that is arbitrary.

I think nation-states and borders are arbitrary however.

[Oneironaut]

I define a nation as a grouping of people with a common cultural and liguistic heritage. I dont think that is arbitrary.

You couldn't be more correct in saying that cultural and linguistic heritage isn't arbitrary. i believe what we are referring to is exactly what you call the nation-state, which nationalists are in favor of maintaining and exploiting.

[danyboy27]

radical nationalism is a bad thing, but i think nationalism is a good thing and that it dosnt implicate the hatred of other nation.

me for exemple, i am a canadian, and i am somehow proud of it, but that dosnt mean that i hate other countries, on the countrary, i love other nation, and i think nations have their place in that world.

its indeed important that we work together, but to me,it would be just boring to have all the same culture/language/way of doing things, its by our differences that we can make the world progress.

[Bud Struggle]

its indeed important that we work together, but to me,it would be just boring to have all the same culture/language/way of doing things, its by our differences that we can make the world progress.

One of the BIG problems of Communism is that it's excruciatingly boring.

[revolution inaction]

radical nationalism is a bad thing, but i think nationalism is a good thing and that it dosnt implicate the hatred of other nation.

me for exemple, i am a canadian, and i am somehow proud of it, but that dosnt mean that i hate other countries, on the countrary, i love other nation, and i think nations have their place in that world.

its indeed important that we work together, but to me,it would be just boring to have all the same culture/language/way of doing things, its by our differences that we can make the world progress.

Communism/anarchism has nothing to do with everybody having the same language or culture (depending on how you define culture) and it definitely doesn't require everyone to do everything the same way.

Apart from language I don't see that I have any more in commune with any random person in uk/england/"my city" than I have with some one in any random country with a similar level of development, and most likely any country.

[Dr Mindbender]

One of the BIG problems of Communism is that it's excruciatingly boring.

thats a strawman, not a problem.

[RGacky3]

One of the BIG problems of Communism is that it's excruciatingly boring.

I think working 40 hours or more weeks for someone elses wealth is pretty boring, much more so than being my own boss in solidarity with others.


i mean, do i need to read all the fucking marxist tehories to figure out what i am really suporting?

No, its mainly common sense. A lot of those theoretical volumes are just explaining simple concepts in long complicated explanitory terms.

BTW on the question of nationalism, liking where you live, and the lifestyle your used too is'nt nationalism, its human nature.


Apart from language I don't see that I have any more in commune with any random person in uk/england/"my city" than I have with some one in any random country with a similar level of development.

If you have the opportunity to travel and meet people around the world, the more you realize that people are generally the same, and you have more things in common than you'd think.

[revolution inaction]

If you have the opportunity to travel and meet people around the world, the more you realize that people are generally the same, and you have more things in common than you'd think.

I agree with this.
I was basically trying to same that I don't think I have more in common with some one from "my" nation than I do with some m=one from any other random nation.

[Led Zeppelin]

One of the BIG problems of Communism is that it's excruciatingly boring.

Well let's see here, you're a capitalist, and you bore me to death.

Case closed.

[Robert]

much more so than being my own boss in solidarity with others.Gack, I don't know what skills you have at present, but immigrants to the USA are always starting their own little businesses, from grocery stores to bakeries to muffler shops to hospital supplies. They have no capitalist bosses and no employees but themselves. What's another one: Restaurants? Donut shops? Hair salons?

I'm serious, who says you can't do something like that while waiting for the Revolution to [not] come?

on edit, I see you were only claiming that it would be "less boring" to work for yourself than for someone else. Presumably this means that you really do want to work for yourself. Correct?

[Bud Struggle]

Well let's see here, you're a capitalist, and you bore me to death.

Case closed.

Well, moving beyond your penchant for personal invective--in the past, most attempts at Communism have tried to make societies a sort of vanilla concoction of sameness. I don't suppose you have ever been to Russia to see what soviet State architecture looks like. Maybe you have seen some Soviet artwork?

On another level--no one is much interested in Capitalist economic theory--it is just what "is." People are even less interested in Communist economic theory--it doesn't even exist in "real life." In the end though it's the pessimism of Communism not it's blandness that overwhelms.

[Robert]

In the end though it's the pessimism of Communism not it's blandness that overwhelms.Do you mean they are pessimistic about the chances of a worker revolution ever arising? That's what I think, but they are perversely complacent in their pessimism. I wish they'd either start the damned revolution and be done with it -- how I have no idea -- or just go get a danged job like everybody else!


on edit: I mean no disrespect to those who already have jobs.
:laugh:

[Bud Struggle]

Do you mean they are pessimistic about the chances of a worker revolution ever arising? That's what I think, but they are perversely complacent in their pessimism. I wish they'd either start the damned revolution and be done with it -- how I have no idea -- or just go get a danged job like everybody else!:laugh:

I wish they start the Revolution already, too. Too much talking too little fighting.

This is how my 10 yo daughter is prepairing for the day of the revolution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtY1W1LGE8w&feature=related

:D

[Robert]

Wow, kickin' ass and takin' names. Kickin' ass, anyway! Outstanding.

:lol:I hope those are commie asses she'll be kickin' and not mine.