Kim's absence fuels health rumours

[spice756]

There is mounting speculation about the health of North Korean leader Kim Jong-il after he missed the country's 60th anniversary parade. But why is his failure to attend the focus of so much attention

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7606566.stm

[Abluegreen7]

Im wondering why they are so curious about his failure to attend myself. Was there an assassination planned?

[Ismail]

Was there an assassination planned?I doubt it. Him being ill wouldn't be too surprising (he's 67 and chubby) but I doubt he's dead or whatever like some are claiming. He's been known to be out of the limelight for a bit and then come back.

This is an anniversary parade, so it's a pretty big event, especially when it's on a special number (5, 10, 15, 20, etc.) ergo the speculation.

[Chapaev]

This baseless speculation of the Dear Leader's health constitutes psychological warfare against the DPRK. It is clear that these pessimistic reports about the Dear Leader's health are part of a conspiracy by the United States and Japan to impose pressure on the DPRK.
Reports (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/31/content_9744198.htm) on aerial spying against the DPRK by the United States and the puppet regime in southern Korea are particularly alarming.



http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=13056894&PageNum=0

Kim Yong Nam said Wednesday there is no problem with top leader Kim Jong Il, whose absence from events held since Monday to mark the 60th anniversary of the country's founding has fueled speculation as to his health condition.

In its report from Pyongyang Tuesday, Kyodo News cited Kim Yong Nam, who is president of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly, as making such comment. Earlier Kyodo quoted a senior North Korean diplomat as saying that reports about the alleged illness of the North Korean leader Song were viewed “as not only worthless, but rather as a conspiracy plot.''

Meanwhile, South Korean Yonhap News Agency quoted a Seoul official as saying that Kim recently collapsed and was "almost certain" to be ill. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, however dismissed the possibility of Kim's death.

[Holden Caulfield]

This baseless speculation of the Dear Leader's health constitutes psychological warfare against the DPRK. It is clear that these pessimistic reports about the Dear Leader's health are part of a conspiracy by the United States and Japan to impose pressure on the DPRK.


who talks like that?!

and the death of a dictator is nothing to worry about if he is dying of illness or going to die in the future of old age, what happens next is important, perhaps this 'workers state' should allow the workers to have a go at ruling

[Red October]

I would be worried about what will happen to North Korea when he dies, but the man is a total shit and deserves whatever he gets.

[rednordman]

mmm..its going to be very interesting to see how this all pans out. I too find it a little odd how the media is 'taking notice' of this. Its almost like they know a little more than they are letting on. Its funny in a way because all the news reports that i'v seen on it, they seem to send out the impression that if in fact K Jong Ill is dead, the DPRK dies with him. To most of the conservative and liberal medias that we have in the west, this is probably a 'triumph' for liberalism and freedom for the people of DPRK. Terrible government oppression aside, i still worry a little bit for N korea as to how they would deal making the rapid transition to the western liberal mindset and lifestyles that we have in the west and the bullshit that comes with it. And trust me, if the DPRK is to collapse, they (the people) would not have a say or choice in that.

[Jesus Christ!]

He had a stroke according the South Korean intelligence. I hope he has a few more and leaves this earth.

[Ismail]

He had a stroke according the South Korean intelligence. I hope he has a few more and leaves this earth.Yeah, that way we get the Deng Xiaoping, Ramiz Alia, Nikita Khrushchev, or Raúl Castro types who introduce capitalist reforms. Good plan.

[Red October]

Yeah, that way we get the Deng Xiaoping, Ramiz Alia, Nikita Khrushchev, or Raúl Castro types who introduce capitalist reforms. Good plan.

And what they've got no is totally better.

[Sendo]

give me pinochet over Kim Jong-il any day of the week.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That's a pretty ridiculous line to take. You'd prefer a fascistic murderous dictator who came to power in a bloody U.S.-sponsored coup that overthrew a popular socialist president over a bureaucrat who sits on top of country in which capitalist property relations were overthrown in revolution?

Look, you don't have to support a bureaucratic leader like Kim Jong-il to defend the gains made in north Korea (collectivized property born out of the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, universal healthcare and education, etc.). There can be no question that the revolution in north Korea has degenerated greatly, but that means we should fight to correct that (revolution in south Korea is needed to break the north out of isolation, remove the need for the bureaucracy to maintain a huge military, etc.), not that we should line up with our own blood thirsty imperialists who are just waiting to bring the north back into their "sphere of influence."

Taking a 'Stalinism is worse than capitalism' stance reeks of Shachtmanism, and can lead to nothing but Shactmanite slogans like "Victory for the U.S. in Viet Nam."

[Yes]

Any speculation of his health his unfounded; these journalists are mere novelists. He is known to be a recluse and has fallen out of public sight for much longer than this.

Also, many of you are taking capitalist authorities on DPRK too far. Yes, Kim Jong Il has expensive habits, and yes, he has absolute power. However, the rumors of starvation are mostly untrue because the last time there was any widespread starvation it was during a massive shortage of grain grouped with the collapse of the USSR. 20 years ago, North Korea had a higher GDP than Japan, South Korea, and a large handful of "developed" countries. It's seen much better times than it's going through, but supporting someone like Pinochet more is insane.

[BIG BROTHER]

I pretty much agree with nothing human is alien, weather kim is death or alive we should support the property relationships in North Korea. A workers revolution in south korea would give new life to the proletariat in North korea and that could mean the end of the bureaucracy, and a break of North Korea's isolation.

So in few words fuck kim, but long live north koreas workers!

[spice756]

I pretty much agree with nothing human is alien, weather kim is death or alive we should support the property relationships in North Korea. A workers revolution in south korea would give new life to the proletariat in North korea and that could mean the end of the bureaucracy, and a break of North Korea's isolation.

So in few words fuck kim, but long live north koreas workers!

But looking at the US industralizing south korea I don't think a revolution will happen.


So North Korea is on its own.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

But looking at the US industralizing south korea I don't think a revolution will happen.

The south only surpassed the north economically a few years ago. There has been a number of crises since then. And even with a history of severe repression, and draconian laws like the National Security Act, there is still resistance.

Growing economic problems in south Korea (http://mfje.org/english/page.php?232)
South Korean government attacks union leaders (http://mfje.org/english/page.php?234)
South Korean government turns water cannons on anti-Bush protesters (http://mfje.org/english/page.php?233)
Union leader hospitalized as strike continues in south Korea (http://mfje.org/english/page.php?235)

[spice756]

But is the US still not industralizing south korea ? Or have they been kicked out ?

I thought there was lots of US big businesses there?

[BIG BROTHER]

Well seeing that South korean workers have really low wages and not even the basic labor rights that even workers in the US have, I'm sure that you'll find factories in South korea working for walmart. But that doesn't mean anything, the mood in south korea lately has been pretty rebelious, if the workers rebolt they can take over the factories it doesn't matter to whom they belong.

[Robespierre2.0]

This can't be true. The Dear Leader can't be taken from us at such a spry, young age! The progressive anti-imperialist people of the world would be heartbroken!

May Comrade Kim Jong Il have a speedy recovery, and may the DPRK continue to defy Amerikkkan agression!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

But is the US still not industralizing south korea ? Or have they been kicked out ?

I thought there was lots of US big businesses there?

Yes, the U.S. dominates south Korea. Besides its numerous investments there, it maintains a strong military presence. It's precisely because of this that a revolution in the south would shake the very foundations of world imperialism.

[The Author]

Kim Jong Il has his faults, just like Raul Castro, and both North Korea and Cuba have degenerated quite significantly but not to the degree seen in Vietnam, Laos and China, but that doesn't mean we call for their overthrow just because the U.S. said so. These "health issues" the media is hyping is the same tactic they used with Fidel Castro.

[Wanted Man]

These "health issues" the media is hyping is the same tactic they used with Fidel Castro.
And most people on RevLeft are falling for it hook, line and sinker yet again.

[The Author]

Well, certainly. They're too thick-headed to care, it just suits them to throw mud where and when they see fit.

By the way, this is not the first time that bourgeois media have speculated and spread rumors on the health or supposedly upcoming death of a communist leader. It went back at least to the time of Lenin.

As Comrade Stalin once said:

"The whiteguard press . . . the émigrés . . . the incredible
fairy-tales about Lenin’s death, with full details...

Comrade Lenin smiled and remarked: 'Let them lie
if it is any consolation to them; one should not rob the
dying of their last consolation.' " (Works, Vol. 5, p. 139)

[Charles Xavier]

give me pinochet over Kim Jong-il any day of the week.
You're disgusting, women are not raped and tortured to snitch on organizers in North Korea. Families don't disappear because their son was in a left group. Poor areas don't get burned to the group and bulldozed in North Korea.

[Comrade B]

First might I say, Kim is fucking crazy and as far as we know he could have missed his parade because he was busy trying to fly using feathers taped to his arms. He could also have been passed out after drinking some of his extensive American liquor collection.

Point is, he is fucking insane, and crazy people do random shit.



Yeah, that way we get the Deng Xiaoping, Ramiz Alia, Nikita Khrushchev, or Raúl Castro types who introduce capitalist reforms. Good plan.
He is this type. Remember, he isn't the first leader of North Korea. He was the one that took power through hereditary rule.

Also, you by far demonize Raul too much. Introducing some western products isn't the end of the world. Perhaps he decided that the luxuries that the government officials enjoy should be available to the people. He has often said that he learned everything he knows from Castro. Deng Xiao Ping took power after the country was already fucked, and Khrushchev was a traitor.

Anyway, my new point is, our tiny douchbaggy friend is worse than a standard capitalist, he is a feudal autocrat. He has total control over the economy, but rather than sharing everything equally, he gives to those in his favor. If he wants something, lets say German cars, or fresh lobsters from hours away, he gets it. He cares not for his people, and excessively for himself. Il by far crushes the lameness of being a Stalinist.

[Charles Xavier]

First might I say, Kim is fucking crazy and as far as we know he could have missed his parade because he was busy trying to fly using feathers taped to his arms. He could also have been passed out after drinking some of his extensive American liquor collection.

Point is, he is fucking insane, and crazy people do random shit.


He is this type. Remember, he isn't the first leader of North Korea. He was the one that took power through hereditary rule.

Also, you by far demonize Raul too much. Introducing some western products isn't the end of the world. Perhaps he decided that the luxuries that the government officials enjoy should be available to the people. He has often said that he learned everything he knows from Castro. Deng Xiao Ping took power after the country was already fucked, and Khrushchev was a traitor.

Anyway, my new point is, our tiny douchbaggy friend is worse than a standard capitalist, he is a feudal autocrat. He has total control over the economy, but rather than sharing everything equally, he gives to those in his favor. If he wants something, lets say German cars, or fresh lobsters from hours away, he gets it. He cares not for his people, and excessively for himself. Il by far crushes the lameness of being a Stalinist.

Stalin lived quite meagerly. Its opportunism that is the problem.

[chimx]

Yes, the U.S. dominates south Korea. Besides its numerous investments there, it maintains a strong military presence. It's precisely because of this that a revolution in the south would shake the very foundations of world imperialism.

It should be noted though that the American leadership of the CFC only has authority for foreign threats. All internal problems are handled by Korean military leaders.

I'm about to walk out the door, but I'll be back later to offer up some thoughts on some other comments you made nhia.

[chimx]

Families don't disappear because their son was in a left group.

Actually from a sea eyewitness reports, this is also true for North Korea. There are numerous prison camps in the DPRK and some of them are designed to imprison the families of political "criminals". There are a few good documentaries on this that can be viewed for free on google video.


Look, you don't have to support a bureaucratic leader like Kim Jong-il to defend the gains made in north Korea (collectivized property born out of the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, universal healthcare and education, etc.).

I may agree maybe with this if we were living in the 1950s or even 60s. The Korean revolution was pretty inspiring stuff, despite the attempts by the US and USSR to derail it. But unfortunately the problems created by the Kim governments far outweigh any gains that had been won by the Korean revolution, which in reality have really eroded away anyway. Currently it is following a similar path as Xiaopingist China, creating "free market zones".


There can be no question that the revolution in north Korea has degenerated greatly, but that means we should fight to correct that (revolution in south Korea is needed to break the north out of isolation, remove the need for the bureaucracy to maintain a huge military, etc.), not that we should line up with our own blood thirsty imperialists who are just waiting to bring the north back into their "sphere of influence."

Taking a 'Stalinism is worse than capitalism' stance reeks of Shachtmanism, and can lead to nothing but Shactmanite slogans like "Victory for the U.S. in Viet Nam."

It is difficult to fight bureaucracy when democratic institutions are in place that disallow even "factionalism". Historically it strikes me as significantly more difficult to organize working peoples living under a degenerated "communist" banner than that of capitalism, and when working people do voice their grievances, they are often times repressed more brutally than in capitalist countries. The Tienanmen Square incident in particular comes to mind, when working families singing the International were fired upon by Chinese troops, as does Krondstat and aspects of Hungary in '56.

Also, you speak of gains, but do these bureaucratic messes do more harm to the workers movement than good in the long run? Hungary in 1956 significantly turned Western Marxists off from the Soviet Union. How many times have you tried to engage in a political conversation with a worker only to be dismissed as advocating a repressive political regime, because for many people communism simply equates to the Soviet experiment. This happened to me just last week at the Boeing strike rally, when a couple of machinists (not all by any means) who were already knowingly engaged in class struggle completely dismissed us for rejecting democracy, freedom, etc. etc.

From my experience, the Soviet experiment as well as the DPRK and PRC have done a greater disservice to international communism than any good that came out of their revolutions. I'm sure you can try and blame a lot of this on western media which highlighted the problems in these countries, but they were still significant problems that did exist nonetheless.

[spice756]

Kim Jong Il has his faults, just like Raul Castro, and both North Korea and Cuba have degenerated quite significantly but not to the degree seen in Vietnam, Laos and China, but that doesn't mean we call for their overthrow just because the U.S. said so. These "health issues" the media is hyping is the same tactic they used with Fidel Castro.

Wrong .Cuba allows tourists and people to come and go.You can take pictures in Cuba .Cuba allows people to vote or join the communist party .Cuba allows people to debate at meetings.And Cuba press at least tells who is sick or not.

In North Korea just trying to leave a country is death or saying things about the leader is death .You cannot take pictures in North Korea and if there are reporters you must be with a tour guide.There are check points in North Korea and guards all over the place .It is very hard to get pictures out of North Korea do to no pictures allowed.

Cell phones are ban and every thing is monitored by the police.Check youtube on North Korea lots of North Korea people gone to China or south korea .

Has for free education and free healthcare I doubt that , most likely the high ups get it.Than the everyone.:(

[spice756]

From my experience, the Soviet experiment as well as the DPRK and PRC have done a greater disservice to international communism than any good that came out of their revolutions. I'm sure you can try and blame a lot of this on western media which highlighted the problems in these countries, but they were still significant problems that did exist nonetheless.




Well China and North Korea seems to be the worse.At least the USSR was close other than the state capitalism.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Question:

Does Kim Jong Il have any son who would be eager to pick up the hereditary leadership?

[DiaMat86]

The North Korean government has formally replaced references to Marxism-Leninism in its constitution with the locally developed concept of Juche, or self-reliance. Without Marxism-Leninism the North Korean system has more in common with fascism than communism. The leadership appears totally isolated from the masses of people.

[chimx]

Does Kim Jong Il have any son who would be eager to pick up the hereditary leadership?

He has two sons. His oldest Kim Jong-chul is probably in line to pick up where his father leaves. He was recently appointed a leadership role in the Korean Workers Party.

[crimespotter]

Well, he really hasn't seen him in years, right? He might have died for all we knew.

[RHIZOMES]

The North Korean government has formally replaced references to Marxism-Leninism in its constitution with the locally developed concept of Juche, or self-reliance. Without Marxism-Leninism the North Korean system has more in common with fascism than communism. The leadership appears totally isolated from the masses of people.

:lol: How?

[Hiero]

Wrong .Cuba allows tourists and people to come and go.You can take pictures in Cuba .Cuba allows people to vote or join the communist party. Cuba allows people to debate at meetings.And Cuba press at least tells who is sick or not.

The PCC is vanguard party, and membership is selective. People can't just join the Communist party, and this is how it should be everywhere.

There are other organisations which are called mass organisations, which anyone can join if they wish, such as the trade unions. This is the same as in the DPRK.

[DiaMat86]

:lol: How?

Characteristics of Fascism ( Form the Humanist web site)

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
5. Rampant sexism. (The majority of women work in light industry, where they are paid less than their male counterparts in heavy industry. In office situations, they are likely to be engaged in secretarial and other low-echelon jobs.)
6. A controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.(The govenment sponsors its own religious groups under this "socialism") (from the CIA world factbook)
9. Power of corporations protected. ( in the form of state capitalism and an onerous wage system)
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections

[Colonello Buendia]

Yeah, that way we get the Deng Xiaoping, Ramiz Alia, Nikita Khrushchev, or Raúl Castro types who introduce capitalist reforms. Good plan.
capitalism would be an improvement on that psuedo fascist dictatorship

[Wanted Man]

give me pinochet over Kim Jong-il any day of the week.


capitalism would be an improvement on that psuedo fascist dictatorship

Well, at least some people on RevLeft are pretty honest about where they stand these days... I don't even 'support' (as if my support is relevant, anyway) the DPRK's direction, but I think a lot of claims about it are hysterical and exaggerated. And if people who should know better* did not fall for them so easily, they also wouldn't let go of all rationality and draw conclusions like the ones above. Apparently, Hitler's words about big and small lies were more than just ravings of a madman.

*That is, people who call themselves marxists or anarchists and therefore tend to take claims from the corporate media, state-subsidised/corporate-financed human rights organisations, etc. with a grain of salt.

[chimx]

Characteristics of Fascism ( Form the Humanist web site)

That is one of the worst definitions of fascism I have ever seen. Fascism is a political system that relies on a strong centralized state whose power base rests on a culture of rabid nationalism, which often times is ethnically defined. And most important, what sets fascism apart from the DPRK is a state corporatist economy. Most of the businesses in the DPRK are state ran, making it entirely antagonistic to fascism.