CIVILIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ - A Source For The Numbers

[redstar2000]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

:(

[Zombie]

thx for the link, i bookmarked it.
yeah... :(

[Chiak47]

ABC - ABC News (USA)
AFP - Agence France-Presse
AP - Associated Press
AWST - Aviation Week and Space Technology
Al Jaz - Al Jazeera network
BBC - British Broadcasting Corporation
BG - Boston Globe
Balt. Sun - The Baltimore Sun
CT - Chicago Tribune
CO - Commondreams.org
CSM - Christian Science Monitor
DPA - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
GUA - The Guardian (London)
HRW - Human Rights Watch
HT - Hindustan Times
IND - The Independent {London]
IO - Intellnet.org
JT - Jordan Times
LAT - Los Angeles Times
MEN - Middle East Newsline
MEO - Middle East Online
MER - Middle East Report
MH - Miami Herald
NT - Nando Times
NYT - New York Times
Reuters - (includes Reuters Alertnet)
SABC - South African Broadcasting Corporation
SMH - Sydney Morning Herald
Sg.News - The Singapore News
Tel- The Telegraph (London)
Times - The Times (London)
TOI - Times of India
TS - Toronto Star
UPI - United Press International
WNN - World News Network
WP - Washington Post

Damn they asked everyone but the PRC.

Where's Fox?

(Edited by Chiak47 at 11:59 pm on Mar. 23, 2003)

[Zombie]

yeah good thing u edited ur little 'joke' there... it was of bad taste...
cnn=commie news network??... pffff wtv

[Anonymous]

Even if those figures are accurate (which I doubt they are), it's still much better than the 200 or so many here claimed were killed.

[synthesis]

Great site. I can't spot a single source of theirs that isn't credible.

[Chiak47]

Zombie you watch me like the good Bolshevik you are.

Che would be proud buddie..


(Edited by Chiak47 at 12:06 am on Mar. 24, 2003)

[Chiak47]

Did you catch that?

[Anonymous]

Yes, we all know "Common Dreams News Center" (http://www.commondreams.org) is a totally ubiased and completely credible news source.

"Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community"

Why, they're the very definition of objective! Just like Indy Media (http://www.indymedia.org) and Workers World News Service (http://www.workersworld.org/ww/).

[synthesis]

Common Dreams gets their news from mainstream sources like Washington Post and the New York Times. Look at any of the articles, there's a little thing at the top that says 'Published on <time> by the <source.>' So, they are credible.

[Zombie]

Nooo, only sources such as CNN or FOX can be totally unbiased and completely credible. now go play.
jeez

[Jaha]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 6:03 pm on Mar. 23, 2003
Even if those figures are accurate (which I doubt they are), it's still much better than the 200 or so many here claimed were killed.

one civilian death is too many.

you cant justify murder, neither can the US government.

[Anonymous]

They were accidental. "Collateral damage", so to speak. None of their deaths were intentional, and we all feel it is very unfortunate that civilians are dead.

[Xvall]

Dark Capitalist:

Even if those figures are accurate (which I doubt they are), it's still much better than the 200 or so many here claimed were killed.

It's so difficult to believe that dropping over a thousand bombs on a city with five million residents may result in the death of at least sixtey-nine people? Bizzare.

Yes, we all know "Common Dreams News Center" is a totally ubiased and completely credible news source.

And we all know how much FOX and Newspeak (Did I mispell that? Sorry!) love to talk about the alternatives to war and the collateral dammage that the United States military inflicts on the Iraqi population.

They were accidental. "Collateral damage", so to speak. None of their deaths were intentional, and we all feel it is very unfortunate that civilians are dead.

Of course. I am sure that if the American Military wanted to kill civilians, they would have done a much better job. No one likes collateral damage; but the person who started this thread had only one intention. That one intention was to make sure that everyone is aware that there is a website that tries (To the best of their ability) to report the amount of collateral damage in Iraq. I am sure that if they wanted to prove that the United States is an evil, horrible, empire; they would have claimed that the United States Military has already killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi children. As you can see. They have not done this. I do not see how 69-99 civilian casualties is something unbelievable. In fact; it is fortunately less than I expected by now.

Chiak47:

Where's Fox?

Fox hasn't mentioned a single report of collateral dammage. Iraq could be blown off the earth; I doubt they would bother to report it. No one likes Fox. No one likes you either. We will start taking Fox seriously when you start taking the WWP seriously. From this, you should be able to deduce that we will never take Fox seriously. As a matter of fact; even if you did that the WWP seriously, we probably wouldn't take Fox seriously. We hate is that badly. CNN - A communist news network? Oh yes. Indeed. Us communist just love the stock reports and moneyline! You have nailed us. Seeing as CNN is always reporting about the class struggle and all.

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 12:40 am on Mar. 24, 2003)

[Chiak47]

Don't like me huh?I did not know this was a popularity contest.Do I get to wear my Nike's?

[Anonymous]

It's so difficult to believe that dropping over a thousand bombs on a city with five million residents may result in the death of at least sixtey-nine people? Bizzare.

They were surgical strikes, not just random bombings.

And we all know how much FOX and Newspeak (Did I mispell that? Sorry!) love to talk about the alternatives to war and the collateral dammage that the United States military inflicts on the Iraqi population.

Even so, Fox is certainly more objective than "Common Dreams".

[Xvall]

Surgical strikes indeed. But I recall (On mainstream Television; not even something uber-left like FSTV.) that the pentagon expected some 10-15% of their missiles to go off target, not nececarilly by much, but still. I see 69 civilian casualties as something believable; and like I said, it is less than I expected. Bagdhad is a heavilly populated city, and sometimes people may just be in the wrong places at the wrong time, shrapnel can cause damage, ect.

I did notice that Fox wasn't on their list, and Fox may be more objective than Common Dreams and Al Jazier (However the hell that is spelled.), but I doubt that much of that evidence was just fabricated.

[Zombie]

*Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.net)* if that's what u were looking for.
and i dont see why fox would be more objective than AJ?
:cool:


(Edited by Zombie at 8:02 pm on Mar. 23, 2003)

[Umoja]

Al Jazeera is probubly the most objective news a person can find.

[Pete]

Al Jeezera plays who ever asks right? As in they will cover any speech if they can. From bush to bin laden

[synthesis]

Even so, Fox is certainly more objective than "Common Dreams". No, they're not. Did you fucking read my post?

[Hampton]

Al Jeezera had some disgusting video of civilians dead in Iraq and not so disgusting American POWs.

[Zombie]

Quote: from Hampton on 8:48 pm on Mar. 23, 2003
Al Jeezera had some disgusting video of civilians dead in Iraq and not so disgusting American POWs.
and....

[Hampton]

Well if you're curious

Here (http://www.propagandamatrix.com/massacre.html)

And here (http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1199)


(Edited by Hampton at 11:15 am on Mar. 24, 2003)

[Zombie]

yo man i'm eating! :( those pics were awful, but what exactly is ur point?

(Edited by Zombie at 9:04 pm on Mar. 23, 2003)

[Hampton]

That this doctor likes to dance:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/dancing_doc.gif

[antieverything]

That was delightfully random...I loved it!

Um...just so you know, FauxNews has currently not acknowledged a single civilian death in Iraq. They only say that "even Iraqi authorities claim that the death toll is so far a grand total of three *smirk*...in other news, this crazy liberal guy said the following thing which we will take out of context...all liberals are exactly like this."

Shit, I saw their panel discussion today on the Sunday morning thing...they had two moderates from NPR to "balance" the show...they were just sitting there in disbelief as the Fox people spouted ridiculously jingoist rhetoric like "Europeans should welcome our power in the world. If it weren't for us they would all be speaking German"...or something like that. In other news, 20 million Soviet soldiers died to defeat the Nazis.

[Xvall]

Lovely. Thankfully; I am desensitized to that kind of garbage. I am consuming a bit of food at the moment, and I am just fine. You will get used to it Zombie; just like I have.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I agree. I've seen far far worse. If you wan't to start desensitizing yourself to horrendous acts of violence and cruelty, then a good place to start would be ogrish.com. [url=http://www.stileproject.com/]Stileproject (http://www.ogrish.com/) is good, though much of it is just porn. Then of course there's good old rotten (http://www.rotten.com/) too.

[Zombie]

yeah i linked rotten on another thread... very graphic shit.... disgusting..
this site (http://www.asylumeclectica.com/gruesome/) has got loads of links to sick sites like rotten... if u're interested.

(Edited by Zombie at 10:26 pm on Mar. 23, 2003)

[Xvall]

Yeah. DC knows what I am talking about. I don't know why I said garbage. I don't remember typing that. Odd. I must be forgetful. I recall saying 'that kind of stuff', not 'that kind of garbage'. Wierness.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Civilian deaths in Iraq if Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party stays in power based on projections using historical data:

Thousands and Thousands

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 135

Maximum: 209

:(

[Chiak47]

It's a war.How many died in the civil war during the great battles?

How many died during the world wars?
It happens.Now get out of tights and fucking be PROUD of your country damnit.

[lostsoul]

Its very sad. I pray for those whom are still in iraq.

i hope this list doesn't get any bigger.

(Edited by lostsoul at 6:12 pm on Mar. 24, 2003)

[Xvall]

It happens.Now get out of tights and fucking be PROUD of your country damnit.

It is not my country. If I did consider it my country, I probably wouldn't be very proud of it; seeing as a country is a border, and being proud simply because you were born in a certain location is idiotic. I was born here. America is my country in the same way that Nazi Germany was Albert Einsteins country. (I am not comparing the two; don't claim I am. I am using an analogy.)

[CruelVerdad]

SO SORRY TO SEE THE NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES...

[canikickit]

Um...just so you know, FauxNews has currently not acknowledged a single civilian death in Iraq. They only say that "even Iraqi authorities claim that the death toll is so far a grand total of three *smirk*...in other news, this crazy liberal guy said the following thing which we will take out of context...all liberals are exactly like this."

Shit, I saw their panel discussion today on the Sunday morning thing...they had two moderates from NPR to "balance" the show...they were just sitting there in disbelief as the Fox people spouted ridiculously jingoist rhetoric like "Europeans should welcome our power in the world. If it weren't for us they would all be speaking German"...or something like that. In other news, 20 million Soviet soldiers died to defeat the Nazis.

Yes. That's a good summary of the biggest joke in broadcasting.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 197

Maximum: 276

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 227

Maximum: 307

:(

[Xvall]

Sad as that is; it is not nececarry for you to inform us every time the casualty count goes up.

[Larissa]

More civilians died after a supermarket was bombed today. Too sad, really.

Of course, the US-UK forces blame the Iraqis for bombing their own buildings.

(Edited by Larissa at 9:38 pm on Mar. 26, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 8:38 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
Minimum: 227

Maximum: 307

:(



*yawn*

That ain't shit.

[redstar2000]

I think it is necessary, Drake. There are those who would like to put aside the reality of the war...so every 24 hours or so, I intend to remind them.

:(

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 12:38 am on Mar. 27, 2003

Quote: from redstar2000 on 8:38 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
Minimum: 227

Maximum: 307

:(



*yawn*

That ain't shit.


Lets keep hoping that our americian/british friends keep getting more complimentry bullets to the head.

ONLY THING Americians and British soliders need to do is provide their faces, the iraqi goverment will provide the bullet.

[canikickit]

*yawn*

That ain't shit.

Yeah, poor DC. You'd think those bastards would give him value for money. Fucking lousy, liberal media.

[Chiak47]

Redspot,
You have no true friends do you?While those true Americans were off fighting the very system that wants this country dead-you were smoking dope with the enimies and living fat off the tit of the very system you hate.
That burns you..
It makes your skin crawl everytime you see soldiers on tv that have pride.While you have nothing.You are the lowest of the low always looking for a free handout and someone that will give you a open ear so you can spill the very same lies and hate that was once spilled into yours.

Redspot,You disgust me.Next time your in Chicago kind sir please e-mail me so we can talk this out.

But then again your more than likely on the west coast with the rest of the old bums.
Seattle maybe?

Thank you,
Asshole

[redstar2000]

Geographically, Chiak47, I'm much closer to you then you "think".

Nor have I ever cared much for marijuana...Bill Clinton has probably smoked more dope than me.

And I don't own a dummyvision set...so I miss out on all the glorious pro-capitalist propaganda.

But I will confess that any time I can sucker you bastards for a "hand out", I do it. I figure it's "pay back" for all the under-paid jobs I worked.

I have been fortunate in my friendships...none of them are assholes. Your friends can't make that claim, unfortunately.

But speaking of what eats at your guts, doesn't the fact that the internet exists and I can use it to undermine your precious Reich just make you want to hurl?!

hee, hee.

:cool:

[YerbaMateJ]

Keep it up Redstar--- I just e-mailed the civilian casualty site to about 30 of my unsuspecting North American friends (and one in Germany). I hope it wakes some of them up. Thanx...

YMj:biggrin:

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 232

Maximum: 312

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 253

Maximum: 333

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 283

Maximum: 391

More info at

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/1592434.php

:(

:(

(Edited by redstar2000 at 9:01 am on Mar. 29, 2003)

[redstar2000]

Minimum 361

Maximum 469

:(

[Pete]

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 478

Maximum: 576

:(

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:15 am on April 1, 2003
Minimum: 478

Maximum: 576

:(

Red. I'm starting to feel really fucking sick. I want to tell you to stop, but I don't. This is absolutely inexcusable---I mean these numbers continuing to rise. If this were happening in our country the world would "come to an end."

What should I tell people when I send them this website and they just say to me "Oh---It's propaganda. People will tell you different things depending on their 'politics?'

What do I say to make them believe the numbers?

What do I say to the people who say stuff like "Well, the same amount of civilians under Sadam would die every day"---bla bla bla.

Humanity is so fucking low on the evolutionary totem pole, it is beyond my comprehension.

YMj:angry:

[lostsoul]

i hate this war, but looking at how much territory their convering, it seems that more civilians would have died.

Maybe my news is wrong, but it seems they have like half the country. I was wondering, or they being super careful not to kill civilians? or are the numbers really higher but not getting out?

the afgan war is not over, and i read on some site 26,000 afgan civilians died, it seems iraq will not really hit that level.

any insight?

[canikickit]

i hate this war, but looking at how much territory their convering, it seems that more civilians would have died.

Maybe my news is wrong, but it seems they have like half the country. I was wondering, or they being super careful not to kill civilians? or are the numbers really higher but not getting out?

the afgan war is not over, and i read on some site 26,000 afgan civilians died, it seems iraq will not really hit that level.

any insight?

The Bush administration is filled with madmen, lostsoul. Check these out:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/march0304.htm...tml#033003102am (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/march0304.html#033003102am)

Willing to pay a high price (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=3J0FIISTH3ZI2CRBAE0CF FA?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2481066)

[redstar2000]

The reason the numbers are still relatively small, I think, is because the people at the site (see page 1) are trying to be as rigorous as possible in confirming civilian deaths. The true numbers could be three or more times as high...and will "trickle in" as the days pass. In fact, I expect new, higher numbers for several weeks after a formal cease-fire takes place...whenever that might be.

I feel kind of morbid posting an up-date every day or so...but I want people who come to this site--especially the pro-capitalists--to be constantly reminded of what their ideas mean in practice. I realize that most of them probably don't open the thread, but they see it. They know what it signifies. And if there is any small spark of decency left in them...perhaps it will have an impact.

And perhaps, if I cannot stop a horror, I can pay attention and remind others that it continues. Sometimes, that's all you can do.

:(

[peaccenicked]

RedStar2000 is absolutely right. This war is just a computer game in many pro war heads, it is our duty to extend our hospitality to our unwanted guests by giving them as big a dose of reality as we can muster.
By the same token, I make no apology for the war pictures thread. At least we know this is not in our names.

[Som]

There are no official estimates for Iraqi casualties, although officials have said upwards of 4,000 civilians have been killed and wounded.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_mi_ea/war_rdp (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20030401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_rdp)

A vague and single line mention out of the associated press.

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:53 am on April 1, 2003
The reason the numbers are still relatively small, I think, is because the people at the site (see page 1) are trying to be as rigorous as possible in confirming civilian deaths. The true numbers could be three or more times as high...and will "trickle in" as the days pass. In fact, I expect new, higher numbers for several weeks after a formal cease-fire takes place...whenever that might be.

I feel kind of morbid posting an up-date every day or so...but I want people who come to this site--especially the pro-capitalists--to be constantly reminded of what their ideas mean in practice. I realize that most of them probably don't open the thread, but they see it. They know what it signifies. And if there is any small spark of decency left in them...perhaps it will have an impact.

And perhaps, if I cannot stop a horror, I can pay attention and remind others that it continues. Sometimes, that's all you can do.

:(


Yeah, I know your reason for doing it...

I know that the number (thusfar) is low compared to other situations of this type in the past. But the numbers don't seem small to me. And the steady rise daily...

:( AND :angry:

YMj

[lostsoul]

every time it even increases by 1, a human life is lost. Someone will not be coming home to their family, a child is gone, a wife, a husband, a citizen of our world.

its very sad, most of the deaths in the world are because of people, what a great world we live in.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 565

Maximum: 724

:(

[YerbaMateJ]

Jesus fucking Christ.

YMj:angry:

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 574

Maximum: 733

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 831

Maximum: 1,004

:(

[ID2002]

sick and disturbing! I can't help but wonder just how many innocent people are getting hurt. War is no solution to a problem.

[Anonymous]

That's nothing.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 2:03 am on April 6, 2003)

[Zombie]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 4:02 pm on April 5, 2003
That's nothing.


so was 9/11?

[peaccenicked]

That is nothing! Is that a racist comment?

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 9:02 pm on April 5, 2003
That's nothing.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 2:03 am on April 6, 2003)


fuck you

[Anonymous]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 8:02 am on April 6, 2003
That is nothing! Is that a racist comment?


Don't even try that one.

[Anonymous]

I'll become concerned when the death toll exceeds 50,000.

[Zombie]

Were you concerned when the September incident's death toll rose to 3000?
50'000(+) Iraqi lives = 3'000 Amerikan lives?

Z.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Zombie on 4:25 am on April 6, 2003
Were you concerned when the September incident's death toll rose to 3000?
50'000(+) Iraqi lives = 3'000 Amerikan lives?

Z.

Many idiots in the world would actually say it does equal.

it just confirms my belief that america needs to be liberated and the cancer that calls itself america must not be allowed to spread.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 876

Maximum: 1,049

:(

[redstar2000]

"I'll become concerned when the death toll exceeds 50,000." -- Dark Capitalist

That's comforting to know...that there's some kind of numerical limit to your utter callousness and inhumanity.

Or do I read you wrong even there? Perhaps your "concern" is functional. 50,000 rotting corpses would be something of a disease threat to American occupation forces...and would not exactly smell very nice either, right?

:angry:

[Anonymous]

A little of both. The deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (180,000) don't phase me in the moral sense, so I don't see why this should. I'll become morally and ethically concerned when the deaths exceed 450,000, and you can quote me on that. Keep in mind, I'm not celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians. Civilian deaths are a bad thing, but I'm not going to allow the death of a few thousand by my country effect me.

[synthesis]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 7:43 pm on April 6, 2003
Civilian deaths are a bad thing, but I'm not going to allow the death of a few thousand by my country effect me.

“The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”

— George Orwell

[HankMorgan]

Is there a link for a count of deaths attributed to Hussein? How does that count of 1049 compare to Hussein's count?

[Zombie]

Are you talking of KIA US soldiers or what

[HankMorgan]

Good catch, Zombie. I want to know if anyone has a link to a page showing how many Iraqi's people Saddam Hussein killed and what means were employed to kill the people.

[peaccenicked]

Saddam's record of mass murder is little in dispute.
There is no need to remind anyone of that. However, this current invasion is being misreported, and that can only be rectified by a balanced, and fair reporting.
The persistent emotionally potent demonisation of Saddam Hussein distracts from the mass murder of innocents and injuries. The are also little or no reporting of US injuries in the mainstream media. 17, 18 ,19, year olds without legs and arms, with brain damage and other severe injuries. The idea that these people should not be counted is grossly indecent.
The war is stage managed as a complete sucess so as to boost investor confidence in the market and keep the support for the war 'on message'.

this article on afghanistan covers some of these points very well.
http://www.cursor.org/stories/noncounters.htm

[redstar2000]

Mr. Morgan certainly brings a novel approach to this matter.

As if it were a computer game; and the side with the fewer murders wins.

Sweet.

:(

[Boris Moskovitz]

And those Iraqis are killed by?
Bush and Saddam's forces?

I don't want to know how much people die, it's not like I'm that much of a saddistic person. Wars like this bring nothing good, nobody wins...

[Larissa]

Quote: from HankMorgan on 7:14 pm on April 6, 2003
Is there a link for a count of deaths attributed to Hussein? How does that count of 1049 compare to Hussein's count?
One of the most ridiculous assertions made here and elsewhere about the
people killed in the Americanglo aggression against Iraq is that the number
of dead would be nothing in comparison to those who would die if Saddam
Hussein was allowed to stay in power.

If we are to believe the US Central Propaganda Command in Qatar, some 4,500
Iraqi soldiers have been killed by the liberators of Iraq so far. Add to
these the very conservative figure of 1,250 civilians killed in the bombings
or shot by the videogame zozos and will have a figure of 5,750 people dead
since the invasion started 19 days ago.

That's over 300 people killed per day.
Nine *thousand* per month.
Over 110 *thousand* per year.

Even admitting that the war will last for "only" another two weeks, that's
already more than *all* confirmed (meaning reported by reliable
organizations such as the Amnesty International or the Human Rights Watch)
deaths caused by Saddam's regime.

[Valkyrie]

"In Iraq, it is as if the killing never happened. When a human being's death is erased from history, so is their life. Life and death together vanish without a trace."
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15545


http://truthout.org/docs_03/040703C.shtml


(Edited by Paris at 7:07 am on April 7, 2003)


(Edited by Paris at 7:55 am on April 7, 2003)

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from Larissa on 6:50 am on April 7, 2003

Quote: from HankMorgan on 7:14 pm on April 6, 2003
Is there a link for a count of deaths attributed to Hussein? How does that count of 1049 compare to Hussein's count?
One of the most ridiculous assertions made here and elsewhere about the
people killed in the Americanglo aggression against Iraq is that the number
of dead would be nothing in comparison to those who would die if Saddam
Hussein was allowed to stay in power.

If we are to believe the US Central Propaganda Command in Qatar, some 4,500
Iraqi soldiers have been killed by the liberators of Iraq so far. Add to
these the very conservative figure of 1,250 civilians killed in the bombings
or shot by the videogame zozos and will have a figure of 5,750 people dead
since the invasion started 19 days ago.

That's over 300 people killed per day.
Nine *thousand* per month.
Over 110 *thousand* per year.

Even admitting that the war will last for "only" another two weeks, that's
already more than *all* confirmed (meaning reported by reliable
organizations such as the Amnesty International or the Human Rights Watch)
deaths caused by Saddam's regime.

Hey, you nicked that one from Lantra:angry::cheesy:!!

[Chiak47]

Minimum: 876

Maximum: 1,049

WOW.Thats high for a war zone..I hope your not counting the 1000+ decomposing bodies we found along with reporters in that makeshift morgue?
What about the gassed kurds man-don't forget the gassed kurds.

Red,How bout you off yourself and I swear buddie I'll add your name to that fucking list you-pinko laftie.
You sure do love the freedoms we have but you hate the country that gave them too you.
You need to be held to the mast traitor.
I know who you are red...I have all the info I need.I read the paper from 64.It took me a minute but luckily I have some real anti-commies in my family who happen to collect history.
Which you are red last of a dead era.

Midwest huh...

Thanks,
Concerned for your heart.

(Edited by Chiak47 at 9:30 am on April 7, 2003)

[redstar2000]

Yes, parasite, I am a traitor and proud of it. So what?

Much as you wish that I would hurry myself to the grave, it doesn't look like that's in the cards. My health ain't so great...yet the booze and the smokes haven't got me yet.

As for those internet Rambos who would like to shut me up permanently, you could hardly expect me to worry about people who couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were printed on the heel.

Just out of sheer egotism, please tell me which of my brilliant essays from 1964 impressed you so greatly...I was writing quite a bit in that period under several names. :cheesy:

But no, you pretend to have personal information about me just as your whole existence is pretense and bluster...another keyboard commando whose noxious sentiments are helpless before a single key: delete

You know yourself that what you support is rotten...and it gnaws at your guts like cancer. All the more bitter, then, is your hatred of those who will no longer be slaves. Scream "traitor" as loud as you wish; the roar of rebellion will drown you out.

Go ahead and fantasize about pumping me full of bullets and leaving my mutulated corpse in a pool of blood...masturbate to that scene if you like, and I think you probably would. And for all that, the roar of rebellion only gets louder and more demanding.

I have lived long enough to see the beginnings again; once more "the times they are a changing."

:cool:

[Invader Zim]

Back on to the topic....

Those sources dont take into account the reacent accusations of some Jernalists and civillians... There is the susspicion that in saveral of the major killings was infact Saddam who launched the strikes and then blamed the coilition, to gain support for his cause.

Just a thing i read in a news paper... there is no proof, just suspicion.

[peaccenicked]

Everything is blamed on Saddam Hussein. It is another part of the sanitisation of the war. The US/UK mass murdering war criminals are supposed to be clean.
Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 899

Maximum: 1,072

:(

[redstar2000]

Nice rumor, AK47.

Now I'll make one up. I've heard suspicion raised that the so-called "friendly-fire" casualties in the axis* forces are actually deliberate eliminations of military personnel thought to be "unreliable" and insufficiently dedicated to the harsh repression of the Iraqi people.

It's at least as plausible as yours. :cheesy:

:cool:

*I prefer the term "axis"--as in Washington-London-Canberra Axis--to the term "coalition". "Axis" is truer to the spirit of the aggression, I think.

[Anonymous]

"You know yourself that what you support is rotten...and it gnaws at your guts like cancer. All the more bitter, then, is your hatred of those who will no longer be slaves."

Oh, quite the contrary my friend. I don't possess any moral qualms regarding my beliefs.

[peaccenicked]

DC, I thought you Nietzcheans despised morality as weakness, and see the will to ones own power as strength.
In other words you are one sick puppy.

[Anonymous]

I'm not a Nietszchean, but I do greatly admire many of Nietszche's ideas and observations.


Here are some other people I admire.


Ayn Rand
Ludwig von Mises
Theodore Roosevelt
Ronald Reagan
J. Edgar Hoover
Oswald Mosely
Jorg Haider
Murray Rothbard

[synthesis]

Oswald Mosley?!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:38 am on April 8, 2003
Nice rumor, AK47.

Now I'll make one up. I've heard suspicion raised that the so-called "friendly-fire" casualties in the axis* forces are actually deliberate eliminations of military personnel thought to be "unreliable" and insufficiently dedicated to the harsh repression of the Iraqi people.

It's at least as plausible as yours. :cheesy:

:cool:

*I prefer the term "axis"--as in Washington-London-Canberra Axis--to the term "coalition". "Axis" is truer to the spirit of the aggression, I think.


CLAP CLAP CALP. OHH WELL DONE. WELL DONE INDEAD, YOU HAVE JUST WON THE CHE-LIVES NARROW MINDED AWARD 2003.

But seriously haow can you just dismiss a fair argument. These were all reports i heard on the news etc, how can you possibly dismiss like that... Then take the piss? I mean so much for freedom of speach, ridicule anyone who has a differing opinion.

:cool:

PS perhaps Moskitto has a point. You denied Biological fact to support your beliefs on smoking. A bit narrow minded, now you refuse to acknolage a piece information that differes to your point of view.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 11:41 am on April 8, 2003
Oswald Mosley?!


Yeah.

[Chiak47]

Mosley's central economic theme was that British Industry was being undermined by cut-price imports from cheap -labour countries abroad.

http://www.oswaldmosley.com/

Hmmm...Seems familiar.

[Anonymous]

I admire certain qualities in Mosley, but I am in no way a fascist.

[synthesis]

Hmmm...Seems familiar.

Socialists are not the only people who want to reduce dependence upon cheap labor in foreign nations. Nationalists and socialists share that belief, however they do it for entirely different reasons. I bet you can figure them out yourself.

I admire certain qualities in Mosley, but I am in no way a fascist.

Well, you ought to be careful listing him on your top eight list then. His claim to fame was fascism.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 961

Maximum: 1,139

:(

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 12:18 am on April 9, 2003
I admire certain qualities in Mosley, but I am in no way a fascist.


'Mosley's central economic theme was that British Industry was being undermined by cut-price imports from cheap -labour countries abroad.'

What then do you say to this? as a capitalist surely you do not agree much with protectionist trade policies?

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 996

Maximum: 1,174

:(

[Chiak47]

Red,

How many were killed in the Russian Revolution when the commies came to bat?What about the chinese revolution?
War is not for the faint of heart.You have to admit 1,000 or so is not bad considering ALMOST WHOLE DAMN COUNTRY WAS SEIZED.

Thanks,
Wage

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 2:41 am on April 10, 2003
Red,

How many were killed in the Russian Revolution when the commies came to bat?What about the chinese revolution?
War is not for the faint of heart.You have to admit 1,000 or so is not bad considering ALMOST WHOLE DAMN COUNTRY WAS SEIZED.

Thanks,
Wage
even 1 is horrific.

[Chiak47]

lostbrain,

I bet you were laughing the day those islamic bastards slammed into our buildings.Then when we want to put a quick stop to these deeds you scream halt.
Its war and this is real.People are going to die.It happens.

What about the $20,000 that sadamn sent to homicide bombers families in Isreal?You know the cowards who attacked children on the way to school.Where were the reds cry for help then?Or are you a coward red also?

Thanks,

[Zombie]

Then when we want to put a quick stop to these deeds you scream halt.
Attacking Iraq is now part of destroying the Taleban and Binladen? wtf?

What about the $20,000 that sadamn sent to homicide bombers families in Isreal?
How about you go try to "live" in Palestine for a change?
And what about the 3billion$ of US yearly aid to Israel?

Z.

[Chiak47]

Zombie,
You know damn well Sadamn and his socialist buddies would have turned those weapons on more people.

As far as the aid to Isreal...I agree cut it off.Isreal can fend for itself.They are big boys.

Thanks,
CK

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 3:15 am on April 10, 2003
lostbrain,

I bet you were laughing the day those islamic bastards slammed into our buildings.Then when we want to put a quick stop to these deeds you scream halt.
Its war and this is real.People are going to die.It happens.

What about the $20,000 that sadamn sent to homicide bombers families in Isreal?You know the cowards who attacked children on the way to school.Where were the reds cry for help then?Or are you a coward red also?

Thanks,


People may have crashed into your buildings, but i can only recall one member of al-quada getting fucked up. The talaban were not involved, and neither were the civilians of afganastan that i read about dying. The main Al-quadia guys seemed to have escaped, making the killings in afganistan pointless.

The second point i have to make, which people of your stupidity level don't seem to get in their thick heads(maybe cause your too focus on sucking your dad's cock or something), is that maybe saddam is evil...maybe he's just as bad as hitler..but this war has not only resulted in his death...its resulted(according to that site) at least 961 civilians death.

I find it funny the some people here try to justisify that.

[Pete]

Fuck chiak. Saddam helped kill all of the communists and socialists in Iraq. Do you not read?

[Chiak47]

Pete,

Sadamn was a socialist.He gave 100% free medical and torture to his subjects.

Thanks,
Cleared

(Edited by Chiak47 at 3:36 am on April 10, 2003)

[Pete]

He is not socialist, although he has roots in it. And when is free medicine and education bad?

*sighs*

[Chiak47]

Socialist Baath party

[Pete]

That is what they call themselves, China call themselves communist. PolPot called himself communist. None of them are what they claim to be. Maybe if you ignored the fancy official names and looked at what they really where we wouldn't have to have this mindless arguement.

My politics teacher informed us yesterday that at the rate the war is going, if it lasts another 2 weeks America will have killed more innocents than Saddam in his entire rule.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 3:36 am on April 10, 2003
Pete,

Sadamn was a socialist.He gave 100% free medical and torture to his subjects.

Thanks,
Cleared

(Edited by Chiak47 at 3:36 am on April 10, 2003)


Thanks to you i am starting to slowly agree with some bad things politians did throughtout history. Its immposible to argue with you, your too stupid. I'm sure even Gandhi would probally just give up and shoot you in the face.

[Chiak47]

Lostbrain,
That made me spit the cookies and milk out of my mouth...LMAO...
You have a cell left yet.Good for you...

Thanks,
FORD

[Pete]

Quote: from Chiak47 on 10:57 pm on April 9, 2003
Lostbrain,
That made me spit the cookies and milk out of my mouth...LMAO...
You have a cell left yet.Good for you...

Thanks,
FORD

I find it amusing how you prove him right. Really. Is that what you aimed to do?

[Chiak47]

Pete,

Just the thought of Mohandas Gandhi in his toga shooting me in the face made me laugh chunks.
http://www.engagedpage.com/new-5.gif

Holy shit thats funny.

Thanks guys,
Reds are like circus clowns

[synthesis]

I was under the impression that his regime was named the Nationalist Ba'ath Party. At least, I'm certain that's the regime managed by his uncle which was funded by the U.S. to overthrow the leftist General Kassem.

Even if he is a socialist, I have no doubt that the socialist whose picture you have so gracefully provided offsets the false socialism practiced by this madman.

And since when did the United States ever support socialists, anyways?

[Zombie]

DyerMaker makes a strong point.
Kaseem was the leftist, and was removed by the Americans in the mid 50s if I recall well.
I'd like to see Chiak47 answer this one please.

Z.

[Chiak47]

Bambi,

Some people just arent who you think they are when put into power.I only seen T-55's T-72's ak-47/74's SCUD1's/2's BRDM's BMP's and MIGS in his force.If we were such "good Friends" where are the M-16's M-60's F-4'2/15's/18's NIKE patriots and M-113's?

Seems to me he was armed by the reds...

Thanks,
Prone

[synthesis]

Seems to me he was armed by the reds

No, he wasn't. In fact, the C.I.A.-led overthrowal of the previous republic, established by Kassem, was delayed for over two years because the Soviets threatened to intervene on the side of Kassem.

Keep in mind, though, that Kassem was no Soviet; he intended to practice complete neutrality in the Cold War, and refused to allow Communists into his cabinet, and never even really granted them full legality.

The reason he was overthrown was because he created the OPEC, which was a movement for Arab countries to nationalize their oil industries. Less than a year after he nationalized Iraq's oil, he was overthrown and executed in a coup carried out by Saddam's uncle, who ordered many Communists to be executed.

The Soviets, in other words, were on the other side in this matter.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,152

Maximum: 1,388

:(

[Anonymous]

I don't care.

[Chiak47]

same same

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 1:01 am on April 11, 2003
I don't care.


no one is forcing you to read it.

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 1:01 am on April 11, 2003
I don't care.


no one is forcing you to read it. you can be like your fellow americians and just ignore the death rate caused by your countries armed forces.

[Chiak47]

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/19265stfu.gif

(Edited by Chiak47 at 3:31 am on April 11, 2003)

[Chiak47]

http://web2.airmail.net/~hendrix3/gay.jpg

[Zombie]

And...

[Chiak47]

Bambi,

get bent.

Thanks,
Gay basher

[YerbaMateJ]

Forgive me comrades, but I had to LOL at those!!!

[Chiak47]

20,000,000 Iraqis are free tonight.

[Pete]

Freed into wage slavery and living in terror of an occupying force that will kill them if they do not stop when asked while driving through their newly liberated streets. Or when they will die when they walk out onto their porch to see who is shooting. VIVE LA LIBERATION!

[Chiak47]

Pete,

Wage slaves?Paying 40% or more of your money to a system is a wage slave..Like Canada...

Thanks,
Eric

[Pete]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Chiak go educate yourself and then come back. Thank you for proving yourself ignorant.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,160

Maximum: 1,413

:(

[weepingbuddha]

bummer. what makes america think they can kill those they intend to liberate? i'm sure this has been brought up, but one civilian death is too many. the more i think about a minimum of over 1000 in a matter of weeks, the more i want to scream. fuck it, no one seems to care. expain this--at my high school, few seem to think much of the war at all, and those that do disregard the fact that hundreds of civilians have been killed in cold blood (or should i say oil?) goddamn it, we are surrounded by so much suffering, and here in america, it is toned down to nothing, to the point where high school students are numb to the disgusting acts that they hear about in the news! over 1000 civilians dead...all in the name of oil. :(

[Invader Zim]

Better than the thousands who would die in the name of piece. Ie sanctions Saddam death squads. I thik ome-ones got some prioritys wrong.

[Pete]

And it all could have been over in 1992 if America had not watched the uprisings that they told to begin get slaughtered!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 7:17 pm on April 12, 2003
And it all could have been over in 1992 if America had not watched the uprisings that they told to begin get slaughtered!

Very true

[HankMorgan]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 3:17 pm on April 12, 2003
And it all could have been over in 1992 if America had not watched the uprisings that they told to begin get slaughtered!


We agree, Pete. For once.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,367

Maximum: 1,620

:(

PS: AK47, start your own thread on "imaginary deaths" if you wish...this one is about real dead people, murdered by U.S. and British imperialism.

:angry:

[weepingbuddha]

ak: looks like we all have our priorities wrong. who doesn't? bush does. saddam does, if hes still alive. i do. you do. why? cause we cant get it right. when death is involved, nothing is right. good point pete and redstar. oh, and to Chiak47: i just saw those bullshit pics you sent. gaybasher? i like to call people like you stupid, stuck-up, oppressionist facists who have their head so far up their asses they cant see whats going on around them. wake up man, all you are doing is making yourself look ignorant as hell.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:40 am on April 13, 2003
Minimum: 1,367

Maximum: 1,620

:(

PS: AK47, start your own thread on "imaginary deaths" if you wish...this one is about real dead people, murdered by U.S. and British imperialism.

:angry:


Yes well i would rather see 1620 dead than 100,000 tortured to death by leaving that animal in power, fool.

[Anarcho]

I am bothered by the fact that everyone blames the Coalition for the possible Civilian deaths, but nobody blames the Iraqi commanders who placed weapons depots in schools, and pulled their forces into civilian neighborhoods.

[redstar2000]

A particularly stupid point, Anarcho.

There wouldn't have been any civilian casualties or military casualties at all if Iraq had just instantly and unconditionally surrendered to the Washington-London-Canberra Axis.

In fact, if we'd all just obey our lords and masters at all times, everyone would die of natural causes or accidents, right?

Or how about this option: U.S. imperialism suddenly reforms itself and decides never to commit aggression against any small country again.

Any other pipe-dreams, Anarcho?

:cool:

[Invader Zim]

Tell me whats worse redstar, a nother mass genocide commited by Saddam Hussain possibly numbering 100,000 people, the continual opperssion of the Kurdish people, the threat to Kuwite, Iran etc etc, starving thousands to support the Ba'ath party life style, the "disapperance" of thousands, the of the millions.

Or a few unfortunate deaths which is the price of any liberation.

And you call me a "lacky of US imperialism" I think that you should look in the mirror, as your policy is infinatly worse than mine.

:cool:

(Edited by AK47 at 6:15 pm on April 13, 2003)

[Zombie]

Tell me whats worse redstar, a nother mass genocide commited by Saddam Hussain possibly numbering 100,000 people, the continual opperssion of the Kurdish people, the threat to Kuwite, Iran etc etc, starving thousands to support the Ba'ath party life style, the "disapperance" of thousands, the of the millions.
Doesn't it bother you at all that what you said above was ignored, if not supported by the US all along?

Z.

[redstar2000]

Here's one that AK47 will avoid reading...

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=11&topic=3439 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3439)

:cool:

[Invader Zim]

Here's one that AK47 will avoid reading...

I had read it already. It changes nothing, to the fact Saddam Hussain through out his time as dictator, has killed just under 3,000,000 people. Either through war crimes or plain Genocide. This is what you forget.

Doesn't it bother you at all that what you said above was ignored, if not supported by the US all along?

A sensible comment thank you Zombie. I know all about the crimes of the USA, that does not alter the fact that it is still a good thing that they are removing one of the last remaining facist governments. Even if it is for the wrong reasons.

[Pete]

I doubt the number is that high, unless you count casualities of war and the embargo.

[Invader Zim]

It includes when Saddam ordered the launch of chemical weapons at the Iran army. Which is a bit unfair i suppose because it was not genocide agaist his own people, however it still breaks the geneva convention etc.

(Edited by AK47 at 11:40 pm on April 13, 2003)

[truthaddict11]

AK, I dont think that Redstar is supporting Saddam. He is against the US occupation of Iraq. This war is not for the "liberation" of the Iraqis or the Kurds(they,the US, sold Saddam the weapons even after he gased them). And "freedom" will not occur with Saddam gone, all hell will break lose and has. It is about the Oil again just like 1992 when we were going to bring back "democracy" to Kuwait.
From what you are saying you are supporting imperialism. Are you sure you are a leftist?

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 9:34 pm on April 13, 2003)

[Ghost Writer]

I am glad to see that all of you commies are enjoying the source that I provided you with weeks ago. Just remember Stormin Norman was the first to post this link. By the way, those numbers are extremely low. Once again we should praise the United States military for a job well done. However, it's not over yet. I have always said that stability is going to be the greatest challenge. Furthermore, homocide bombers will continue to plague our forces in the region. We have laid out an ultimatum to Syria. Might as well take out two or three corrupt regimes in that region, since we have already spent an enormous amout of money deploying our troops to the Middle East. We should definitely mop up the entire region to ensure that we will not have to spend more money at a later date.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 2:31 am on April 14, 2003
AK, I dont think that Redstar is supporting Saddam. He is against the US occupation of Iraq. This war is not for the "liberation" of the Iraqis or the Kurds(they,the US, sold Saddam the weapons even after he gased them). And "freedom" will not occur with Saddam gone, all hell will break lose and has. It is about the Oil again just like 1992 when we were going to bring back "democracy" to Kuwait.
From what you are saying you are supporting imperialism. Are you sure you are a leftist?

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 9:34 pm on April 13, 2003)


I know the war is only for oil, however in the process there will be a reigm change, and hopfully the US will allow the UN to head these changes, to provide a safe secure Iraq for its people.

If the only reason i wanted this war was because i only saw the economic advantages and blind devotion to the will of my primeminister then yes i wouyld be right wing. However i dont see it like that, i see Saddam far worse than bush and i dont care who kickes him out because they cannot be worse than he is.

However from what you are saying you are by default supporting the repression and murder of the Kurdish people. Are you sure that you are a leftist?

(Edited by AK47 at 11:47 am on April 14, 2003)

[socialist2000]

I think the rights and wrongs of the war are now pritty irrelavant, as the war is nearly over, i hope that the UN run the after war operations for the Iraqi people for a while rather than the USA.



(Edited by socialist2000 at 12:51 pm on April 14, 2003)

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,373

Maximum: 1,626

:(

[truthaddict11]

However from what you are saying you are by default supporting the repression and murder of the Kurdish people. Are you sure that you are a leftist?
I never said that I was supporting the repression and murder of the kurds. I dont support either saddam or the US led "liberation".



(Edited by truthaddict11 at 2:53 pm on April 14, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:40 am on Mar. 24, 2003
Civilian deaths in Iraq if Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party stays in power based on projections using historical data:

Thousands and Thousands


...many more than the number that died in the war.

[peaccenicked]

Where those projections based on pre American support, or post American support. The war did stop Saddam being their man in the middle east neither did the gasing of the Kurds.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 9:24 am on April 15, 2003
Where those projections based on pre American support, or post American support. The war did stop Saddam being their man in the middle east neither did the gasing of the Kurds.

Dont you get it thats not the point. Right here and now the USA's past is irelavant. The fact is is that they are saving thousands if not millions form organised extermination.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,402

Maximum: 1,817

:(

[truthaddict11]

Right here and now the USA's past is irelavant
thats sad. because if you would look at past US bombing campaigns "democracy" has never come from them for that area.

they are saving thousands if not millions form organised extermination
In My opinion oppression of the Kurds will not end with the oust of Saddam. What if the new "leader" of Iraq is anti-Kurdish?

[Chiak47]

Minimum: 1,402

Maximum: 1,817

Not too bad considering it's war and a country was liberated.Now if it read Min 100,000 max 150,000 I might have a different opinion.But it seems to me the people wanted liberation.

[Sabocat]

Quote: from AK47 on 6:05 pm on April 15, 2003

Quote: from peaccenicked on 9:24 am on April 15, 2003
Where those projections based on pre American support, or post American support. The war did stop Saddam being their man in the middle east neither did the gasing of the Kurds.

Dont you get it thats not the point. Right here and now the USA's past is irelavant. The fact is is that they are saving thousands if not millions form organised extermination.


What is the evidence of that?

1.5 million people have died over the last 12 years from the US imposed sanctions there. What is the proof that Saddam would have killed millions more? That sounds suspiciously like US propaganda and rhetoric. I'd just like to see some proof that he was systematically exterminating thousands or millions. I hope your not referring to the US instigated Iran-Iraq wars.

[Liberty Lover]

The removal of Saddam makes it safe to lift the sanctions.

Operation anfal (http://hrw.org/reports/world/iraq-pubs.php)

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,631

Maximum: 1,887

:(

[Sensitive]

Update: 1642 - 1904

And didn't Bush kill about 4000 - 5000 in Afghanistan?

So Bushitler has killed about 5642 - 6904 civilians so far.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,652

Maximum: 1,939

:(

[Blackberry]

Quote: from Sensitive on 8:25 am on April 18, 2003
Update: 1642 - 1904

And didn't Bush kill about 4000 - 5000 in Afghanistan?

So Bushitler has killed about 5642 - 6904 civilians so far.


Directly, at any rate.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Disgustapated on 12:52 pm on April 17, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 6:05 pm on April 15, 2003

Quote: from peaccenicked on 9:24 am on April 15, 2003
Where those projections based on pre American support, or post American support. The war did stop Saddam being their man in the middle east neither did the gasing of the Kurds.

Dont you get it thats not the point. Right here and now the USA's past is irelavant. The fact is is that they are saving thousands if not millions form organised extermination.


What is the evidence of that?

1.5 million people have died over the last 12 years from the US imposed sanctions there. What is the proof that Saddam would have killed millions more? That sounds suspiciously like US propaganda and rhetoric. I'd just like to see some proof that he was systematically exterminating thousands or millions. I hope your not referring to the US instigated Iran-Iraq wars.


Sounds like what the allied leaders said when they first found out about the holacaust. DENIAL solves nothing.

Also i have posted data from amnesty internatinal, red cross, etc etc in other posts. But sorry if they disagree with your belief that Saddam gives cup cakes to children, then those organisations mut be tools of capitalist propagander.

(Edited by AK47 at 7:52 pm on April 19, 2003)

[lostsoul]

Quote: from AK47 on 7:51 pm on April 19, 2003

Quote: from Disgustapated on 12:52 pm on April 17, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 6:05 pm on April 15, 2003

Quote: from peaccenicked on 9:24 am on April 15, 2003
Where those projections based on pre American support, or post American support. The war did stop Saddam being their man in the middle east neither did the gasing of the Kurds.

Dont you get it thats not the point. Right here and now the USA's past is irelavant. The fact is is that they are saving thousands if not millions form organised extermination.


What is the evidence of that?

1.5 million people have died over the last 12 years from the US imposed sanctions there. What is the proof that Saddam would have killed millions more? That sounds suspiciously like US propaganda and rhetoric. I'd just like to see some proof that he was systematically exterminating thousands or millions. I hope your not referring to the US instigated Iran-Iraq wars.


Sounds like what the allied leaders said when they first found out about the holacaust. DENIAL solves nothing.

Also i have posted data from amnesty internatinal, red cross, etc etc in other posts. But sorry if they disagree with your belief that Saddam gives cup cakes to children, then those organisations mut be tools of capitalist propagander.

(Edited by AK47 at 7:52 pm on April 19, 2003)


you still didn't post any proof

[Iron Star]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:22 pm on April 19, 2003
Minimum: 1,652

Maximum: 1,939

:(


This is a total abomonation to humanity! I wonder how those people (U$ marines) can sleep at night. It just boggles my mind that such a huge amount of people can be so heartless. :sad:.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,878

Maximum: 2,325

:(

[Tkinter1]

I find it interesting that the maximum amount of civilian deaths in this entire military operation are still less then the one day total for the World Trade attacks.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to know if these numbers are based on real casualty reports, or, are they just a ball park "estimate" some left-wing news pundit pulled out of his ass.

[CubanFox]

Yeah, but that wasn't Saddam's fault.

[redstar2000]

Dark Capitalist, if you'll go back to page 1 of this thread and click the link in the initial post, the site will guide you to a discussion of methodology.

It's really not some "leftie" pulling numbers out of his ass.

:cool:

[Chiak47]

Red,

Newsworthy?They are all Commies.From ABC to jane fondas ex Ted Turner at cnn...


Now this news source takes the cake...AGENDA...
"Common Dreams News Center"




Your shit Red...

Thanks,
Eric

[Hampton]

So you're willing to say ABC News (USA), Associated Press, New York Times, The Times (London), Washington Post, BBC, and Chicago Tribune are "commies"?

[Chiak47]

Hampton,

Most on that list have strong leftist views.
There is no way to deny it.
The only true unbiased pro-conservative news source I know of that is mainstream is FOX and notice they are not on the list.

Thanks,
MVRWC

[NeedForRevolution]

lol if you could not laugh at what chiak says i would say ban him

[NeedForRevolution]

and one more thing...... these numbers are low to the real ones believe me

[NeedForRevolution]

and.... cnn leftist????
watch cnn you will not find an dead iraqi-.-

(Edited by NeedForRevolution at 11:26 pm on April 21, 2003)

[Hampton]

unbiased pro-conservative news source

Isn't that an oxymoron? Unbiased but pro conservative?

[lostsoul]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 9:55 pm on April 20, 2003
I find it interesting that the maximum amount of civilian deaths in this entire military operation are still less then the one day total for the World Trade attacks.


many people seem to use that arguement, but i find it extremely foolish to be comparing the two tragities together.

using that logic i could say, you killed more of my people, so i can kill the same or more number of yours.

don't focus on the numbers, 1 death is horrible just as a million. By putting comparing the number in iraq to the number of 9/11 it just makes these people simply look like numbers.(stats to be compared against other tragic events)

[Chiak47]

Hampton,

I knew someone would catch that when I posted it.
CNN-Anti-American un-biased.

Most of the big media in America is slanted to the left.
Dan Rather is a socialist..
Ted Koppel(sp) is a socialist..
I could go on and on but I really dont want to..

[weepingbuddha]

thanks for saying that lost soul.

chiak-- most of big media in america isn't slanted any way---most is propogandist bullshit filtered by corperate executives.

you believe fox?

--weepingbuddha

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,930

Maximum: 2,377

:(

[synthesis]

"Most of the big media in America is slanted to the left. "


"Whether they're called 'liberal' or 'conservative', the major media are large corporations, owned by and interlinked with even larger conglomerates."
-Noam Chomsky

Dan Rather is a socialist..

Wow, you're really full of shit. Among capitalism's sycophants, you are truly among the bottom rungs of the most worthless imbeciles ever to be brainwashed into its destructive doublethink.

[Liberty Lover]

It seems to me that liberals think the media is conservative, and conservatives think the media is liberal.

[synthesis]

And the Catholics think the Protestants control it, and the Protestants think the Athiests control it, and the Nazis think the Jews control it, and the oldtimers thin the communists control it, and blah, blah, blah.

I prefer to see one simple truth: The mass media is composed of corporations. Therefore, it operates in the interests of one class and one goal.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 1,933

Maximum: 2,380

:(

[truthaddict11]

redstar has the bombing stoped? because it seems like the civilian deaths are increasing is this due to continued bombing or recently discovered or reported deaths?

[redstar2000]

The numbers continue to climb for at least three reasons. (1) confirmation of deaths in the maximum total add to the minimum total; (2) people are killed by bombs that did not explode on impact but now explode on handling...this seems to involve mainly children; and (3) people severely wounded are dying of their wounds since hospitals have no equipment or antibiotics. There are probably other factors (trigger-happy GIs?).

Minimum: 1,955

Maximum: 2,402

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 2,050

Maximum: 2,514

:(

[canikickit]

Here's (http://www.alternet.org/print.html?StoryID=15720) an relevant article.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:02 pm on April 21, 2003
Dark Capitalist, if you'll go back to page 1 of this thread and click the link in the initial post, the site will guide you to a discussion of methodology.

It's really not some "leftie" pulling numbers out of his ass.

:cool:


Sorry, my bad.

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 2,136

Maximum: 2,600

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 2,180

Maximum: 2,653

:(

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 2,190

Maximum: 2,670

:cool:

[Hampton]

Another (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/03/1051876891254.html) relevant article.

[MARX MAN]

Check this out

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=95647

Very very funny!!!

[Anonymous]

Minimum: 2197

Maximum: 2670

:biggrin:

[Palmares]

Seems like the deaths are finally coming to an end.

BTW, does this include the deaths from protests and whatever that probably will go on for a while?

[redstar2000]

I believe they are continuing to count any civilian deaths resulting from (1) occupation forces shooting civilians; (2) civilians killed by unexploded ordinance; and (3) civilians who were wounded and who die from those wounds.

A few days ago, one of the spokespersons for the site said that their count might be low by 10 to 20 per cent.

And, yes, the numbers are no longer increasing very much now...

Minimum: 2,233

Maximum: 2,706

:(

[Invader Zim]

Only another 2997294 before it reaches the number Saddams killed.

And the war was immoral... right.

[Sensitive]

Well, it will never reach the amount that the US ruling-class murdered (1 - 1.5 million) via economic sanctions!

[redstar2000]

As usual, AK47, you are disgusting.

:cool:

[Invader Zim]

I dont see how i mearly stated the number more that would be needed before it reaches a similar number to the amount killed by Saddam Hussain.

[GCusack]

yeah, that sux! This war has been fucked up...he needed to b removed but the death count is way too far!!

[Tkinter1]

I think ak's number exceeds that sens.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 4:37 am on May 10, 2003
I think ak's number exceeds that sens.

Sens???

I assume you mean sense and no it does not exceed sense, of course 3,000,000 is only an estimate. But there ya go. Several sources all gave me roughly the same figure a few thosand either way.

[Tkinter1]

I was talking to sensitive AK. Your number exceeded his.

[Anonymous]

Minimum: 3,736

Maximum: 4,771

:wink:

[Reinis]

blah, blah, blah.
of couse everything done by usa sucks

[peaccenicked]

Saddam's genocide far from proven
source (http://www.mediamonitors.net/robinmiller10.html)

[redstar2000]

Minimum: 3,760

Maximum: 4,795

:(

[Chiak47]

*yawn*

[El Barbudo]

cool avatar chiak

[Anonymous]

Minimum: 4,065

Maximum: 5,223

:biggrin:

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 4:08 am on May 18, 2003)

[synthesis]

Having a good chuckle at the increasing deaths of innocents, now are we, DC?

[CubanFox]

I can't get enough of those dead civilians. Mmm, genocide!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I jerk off to murder porn! :biggrin:

[Zombie]

you people are worrying me.... :-/

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 10:34 am on May 13, 2003
Saddam's genocide far from proven
source (http://www.mediamonitors.net/robinmiller10.html)


Thanks for a great laugh pissnicked! I thought Holocaust deniers were the only people capable of churning out such sidesplitting material.

Do you have any more articles written by paranoid conspiracy theorising Saddam apologists who aren't getting enough sex?

[Invader Zim]

peaccenicked Posted on 10:34 am on May 13, 2003
Saddam's genocide far from proven
source


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/3024989.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3024989.stm)

Kirkuk: Kurdish officials report discovery of 2,000 bodies
Muhammad Sakran: Reports say more than 1,000 bodies found
Babylon: Children's bones reportly among remains found
al-Mahawil: Up to 15,000 bodies feared buried
Najaf: 72 bodies found
Basra: Grave believed to contain about 150 Shia Muslims
Abul Khasib: 40 bodies reportedly found.

And saddam never commited genocide... Right. Like in the same way that Hitler did not murder 6 million Jews. Get real.

[peaccenicked]

AK 47. If you believe the BBC. That is your problem. It is not a credible news source. It merely repeats Pentagon lies. I dont like Saddam and he is guilty of heinous crimes, and I called for his removal the moment he was placed in power by the CIA.
It was the American army college who first suggested that what happenned in Halabja was commited by Iran.
This is the only issue I am tackling at present.
You want to run away from that because you dont want to question the sitituation in other than black and white terms.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from NoXion on 6:57 am on May 20, 2003
I jerk off to murder porn! :biggrin:



What about some brutal hentai?

Warning: Pornographic Material

http://fx.sakura.ne.jp/~sympow/doku/englis...sh/uziga00.html (http://fx.sakura.ne.jp/~sympow/doku/english/uziga00.html) (galleries 1-7)


BTW peaccenicked, your right. The BBC can't be trusted as a credible news source, they're too far to the left.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 4:36 pm on May 21, 2003
AK 47. If you believe the BBC. That is your problem. It is not a credible news source. It merely repeats Pentagon lies.


Actually no its not the BBC is considered by all to be a highly neutral news broadcaster, so what you say is obviusly incorrect.

Also all the other major news papers from all sides of the British political spectrum have had that same story.

The fact that pictures exist showing this is more than enough evidance, for anyone of sense.

The terms are only in black and white as there is no mix, the Iranians most certainly did not do this, it was Saddam killing civillians, only a fool would deny it.

[Anonymous]

Minimum: 5,334

Maximum: 6,942

http://smileyonline.free.fr/images/gif/diable/vignette1/thumbnails/ChainSawDevil_gif.gif

:biggrin:

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 12:11 am on May 24, 2003)

[CubanFox]

What is it about thousands of innocent Iraqis dying that is so hilarious, DC?

[Tkinter1]

He does it because it pisses you off. :)

[synthesis]

6,000 deaths, eh?

*does calculations

I think we should be expecting another 9/11 to compensate soon,

[Invader Zim]

I dont understand how it can still be going up. Its completely illogical. The war is over, i think that web site is starting to smell of bullshit now.

Just look at this,

on May 18 the total was: -

Minimum: 4,065

Maximum: 5,223

Then only 6 days later on May 24.

Minimum: 5,334

Maximum: 6,942

This was after the war ended, how could this possibly happen an increase of at least 1269. Thats only the minimum maximum is an increase of 1719. That seems highly suspect to me especially when considering the increases from DURING the war are much less. During a 6 day period during the war the increases were: -

Minimum = 334

Max = 348


Yet after the war during a six day period, when the bombing has finshed the increases are: -

Min = 1269

Max = 1719

Any fool can see how that is completley unrealistic and illogical for a death count to be lower during a war than after by a considerable amount. That web site appears to be telling lies.

[Guest1]

Or maybe you should just shut the fuck up. Huh? Just a thought.

The war in afghanistan only really started after the media orgy was over, after it was declared done. That's what's happening in Iraq. I have relatives there, the coalition forces are still engaging in ground operations, and it ain't pretty. God I feel like knocking your teeth out right now. You pretend to know what's best for Iraqis from out here across the ocean, and then you whine: "mommy, why aren't they stopping like on TV, the monkey president said that there was peace in Iraq now. Make the stupid Iraqis stop dying!"

Fuck.

----------------
EDIT: God dammit, now look what you've made me do AK. I gotta stop getting so pissed off. *sigh* sorry, that just really, really lit my fuse.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 2:42 am on May 26, 2003)

[Anonymous]

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 3:44 am on May 26, 2003)

[Palmares]

It is quite obvious why the deaths have been going up (no offence AK47), the hospitals have released information in bulk form.

People recieve wounds, some die later as a result.

"Don't Don't, Don't believe the hype!
- Public Enemy

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Cthenthar on 4:45 am on May 27, 2003
It is quite obvious why the deaths have been going up (no offence AK47), the hospitals have released information in bulk form.

People recieve wounds, some die later as a result.

"Don't Don't, Don't believe the hype!
- Public Enemy

Yes i could understand a slight increase, however not 3x more than during the war, that seams unlikley.

[Guest1]

Or maybe outrageous? The information is right in front of you AK, you'd rather deny it than accept that the imperialists you supported could ever possibly be committing atrocities.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 7:38 am on May 26, 2003
Or maybe you should just shut the fuck up. Huh? Just a thought.



Stressy, got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

[Guest1]

Like I said, I apologise about that, I got really pissed. You've been getting on my nerves alot lately, and yes, I AM stressed. Anyways, here's some great news about the new occupation authority:

US messing with Iraqi TV: Free speech, who said anything about that? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38682-2003May25.html?nav=hptop_ts)

Bait and switch: US extends occupation, Iraqis pissed (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/26/international/worldspecial/26IRAQ.html)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 2:11 pm on May 27, 2003
Or maybe outrageous? The information is right in front of you AK, you'd rather deny it than accept that the imperialists you supported could ever possibly be committing atrocities.


The evidance they provide is flwed any way. They produse a mean number from all the news sources like BBC etc. There for if you have a news station greatly in opposition to the war then they are going to deliberatly inflate the death count to make there point. This would mean that the average would increase. Averages are highly unreliable as an accurate source of data as any mathmatition will tell you.

Or maybe outrageous? The information is right in front of you AK, you'd rather deny it than accept that the imperialists you supported could ever possibly be committing atrocities.

As i have pointed out unreliable information. I dont deny any thing, i simply pointed out why i though that that web site appears to be talking crap. I never denied that the cohilition forces did not kill civillians, you twisted my words to appear that way.

I also dont support imperialists, or if i do then i was supporting one imperialist nation destroying another. So at the same time i could say i was attacking imperialism, by supporting the war.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 2:16 pm on May 27, 2003
Like I said, I apologise about that, I got really pissed. You've been getting on my nerves alot lately, and yes, I AM stressed. Anyways, here's some great news about the new occupation authority:

US messing with Iraqi TV: Free speech, who said anything about that? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38682-2003May25.html?nav=hptop_ts)

Bait and switch: US extends occupation, Iraqis pissed (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/26/international/worldspecial/26IRAQ.html)


I would be pissed as well, i supported the war for the removal of Saddam Hussain, i do not support the occupation of Iraq. There is a big differance between the 2.

[Guest1]

Good to hear, though I still don't understand your problem with the site. They do not provide an average. They have a minimum and a maximum for each reported case and just add them up. I see no averaging here, and I see no way it could be any LESS biased.