Stereotypes

[Pogue]

Are stereotypes the same as racism? For example, if person A saw a German who had no sense of humour and was very orderly/regimental, dressed in whats seen as a 'german style' and said "How very German", are they being racist?
Like, is using a nationality as a descriptive negatively racist?
And by saying "How very German", are you saying "He is acting in a way all german people act, all Germans act like him"?
Like how in the UK alot of people see Asian parents as strict, so if someone dscribed a strict Asian parent as 'A very Asian parent', are they being racist? Or could it be argued they're mearly using a descriptive which has certain connotations attached to it in order to portray the behaviour of a person?

[mikelepore]

Racism comes in various layers of severity. One of the worst form is those who would directly form lynch mobs and murder people. Slightly less harmful are those who would harbor rationalizations about intelligence, laziness, etc. that have the effect of denying other people jobs, housing, education. Less harmful than that are those who believe in ridiculous stereotypes. The ficititous Archie Bunker character on television is an example of the last category -- he wouldn't want to hurt anyone, but, when he thinks that all black people eat watermelon and call their mothers Mammy, as we know such a habit of making generalizations will sometimes have the effect of hurting people, sometimes by needlessly alienating them from one another, far beyond the simpleton's intentions.

[Trystan]

It's not the same as racism. Bloody annoying though, isn't it?

http://www.adhaiku.com/images/potnoodle_welshmine2.jpg

[Lynx]

If there wasn't such a need to rush to judgment, stereotypes might go away.

[Spartacist]

Man, I hate to say this, but sometimes stereotypes have some basis in truth. I see it from time to time and it can be embarassing.

[F9]

Man, I hate to say this, but sometimes stereotypes have some basis in truth. I see it from time to time and it can be embarassing.

such???:confused:

Fuserg9:star:

[jake williams]

such???:confused:

Fuserg9:star:
The proportion of my city who claims ethnic origin in Asia - about 6% plus or minus.

The proportion of my top level physics class at my high school who is a first or second generation Asian immigrant - 16/33.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I think they're remotely related, but definitely not the same thing.

[Dust Bunnies]

Stereotypes are very common, but in many cases this leads to just barely noticeable results. I doubt many have been killed by a mob for not being a toastmaster German or a smart Asian.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

Man, I hate to say this, but sometimes stereotypes have some basis in truth. I see it from time to time and it can be embarassing.A question presents itself; does the stereotype really accurately describe the individuals, or do the individuals conform to the stereotypes?

If you tell a person their entire life that they are stupid and will never amount to anything, often times such people would have such negative perspectives of themselves that they never even try to learn/act smart or amount to anything.

[Lynx]

Social conditioning?

[RedStarOverChina]

A question presents itself; does the stereotype really accurately describe the individuals, or do the individuals conform to the stereotypes?

If you tell a person their entire life that they are stupid and will never amount to anything, often times such people would have such negative perspectives of themselves that they never even try to learn/act smart or amount to anything.


Exactly.

I'm Asian and I started failing math since the forth grade.

[jake williams]

Exactly.

I'm Asian and I started failing math since the forth grade.
I don't think anyone thinks it's genetics. Okay, some people do, but they're either regular racists or they write for Slate and feel supermodern and edgy about it.

[Dust Bunnies]

or they write for Slate and feel supermodern and edgy about it.

this

[trivas7]

No, stereotypes don't equate to racism IMO. The problem with stereotypes I find is how often based in reality they are :blushing:!

[Sendo]

Asians are stereotyped as math whizzes because its something their education systems have valued in spades since the turn of the last century (circa 1900). This often gets handed down as many customs do even when they emigrate. It has zilch to do with genetics.

On the other hand, American blacks tending to have a frame on average more suitable to basketball than the white average might have some basis in the fact that when slave-owners imported slaves, they didn't import pygmies. But the stereotype of your typical black being superior at basketball for physical reasons than a white is ridiculous. There's also a recent history of whites opting for cushy office jobs and athletics often being a gateway out of the ghetto for many. Hence poor youth in general are more likely to develop athletic talent during their teenage years.

[Prisoner#69]

Nothing wrong with stereotypes. Many times they are often right!

[Black Dagger]

The problem with stereotypes I find is how often based in reality they are


Man, I hate to say this, but sometimes stereotypes have some basis in truth. I see it from time to time and it can be embarassing.


Nothing wrong with stereotypes. Many times they are often right!

Huh?

Of course stereotypes and stereotyping are 'bad' :confused:

By definition a stereotype is never 'right' - otherwise it wouldn't be stereotype it would be a truth.

Moreover, there is a huge difference between something 'based on truth' and truth. Something that is 'based on truth' is in fact not 'true' at all, otherwise it would again be called 'truth' and not a 'based on truth' (think about how much fiction utilises this gimmick).

We have to resist the temptation to give credit to 'stereotypes' and other disguised prejudices that lend creedance to a narrowminded view of humanity. It can be difficult at times because stereotypes have a certain kind of 'truth effect' by manipulating facts to appeal to the lazy aspects of our cognition.

Like conspiracy theories, stereotypes can provide seemingly believeable explanations for events or situations but a stereotype is nevertheless a manipulation of the 'facts' - not a fact iself. A mental short-cut, never an accurate description or nuanced understanding. Stereotypes are an attempt to make understanding life and other people simpler by homogenising them - providing us with ready-made explanations for things and behaviours etc. Perhaps to save us the effort of reflecting and thinking critically about things - or even sometimes as a crutch when we are ignorant or lack information.

[SamiBTX]

Ugh, people still think the Irish are drunks.
Uh, no!

[Chapaev]

Of course stereotypes and stereotyping are 'bad' Not all stereotypes are negative. For example, no one would take offense to the perception that Chinese youngsters in western countries excel at academia.

[Black Dagger]

Not all stereotypes are negative. For example, no one would take offense to the perception that Chinese youngsters in western countries excel at academia.

I dunno, I doubt most asian kids like being stereotyped as nerds.

I guess you think the 'model minority' tag associated with asian migrants is a good thing too?

Both of these stereotypes create unrealistic and unfair expectations for asian kids from their peers and teachers - this can hurt peoples self-esteem and sense of worth - if the perception is that asian kids are 'good at school' - how do you think this affects asian kids who struggle with school? It just compounds their sense of failure, it's a very unfair expectation to put on people.

It also accepts both 'race' and genetic 'racial differences' - supporting the notion that 'asians' are 'better' at 'school' implies that other 'races' (usually black, indigenous or latino peoples), are 'bad' or 'worse' at school than 'asians' (funnily enough white folks are rarely if ever stereotyped negatively as a group).

The 'studious asian' or 'model minority' myth - like all racialised social constructs - is not 'natural' or factual - it's an essentialised, and false identity constructed to serve particular interests.

The 'model minority' myth works similarly to the 'studious asian' myth you've cited- indeed they're closely related. The former is the view that 'asian migrants' work hard and are generally 'successful' - i.e. the 'perfect minority'. In the US this performance is often contrasted with the 'performance' of the Black, Latino or Indigenous populations. These groups are are meant to have had longer to 'adjust' to US society or may have lived in the US their whole lives yet for some reason (read: racial differences) are still struggling or living in poverty These sorts of racist arguments have been around the US since asian migration became a major issue in the C19th - beginning with comparisons between chinese migrants and other groups as 'labourers'.

The ‘model minority’ reinforces the moral and social order within society, those who work hard will prospers accordingly. In this prosperity, the ‘model minority’ provides a glowing example (‘model’) for all of the nation’s minority groups to aspire. But it must be understood that these perceptions of Asian peoples have not emerged in a historical vacuum.
Rather, the accepted notions of Asian people as ‘hard workers’, ‘diligent’, ‘intelligent’, ‘industrious’ and ‘obedient’, that fuel the ‘model minority’ myth (like the 'studious asian' stereotype you're referring to) of contemporary US society, are largely-rooted in historical perceptions and portrayals of Asian people, and that the way Asians have been characterized by White America has consistently positioned them above other minorities but below Euro-Americans.

This establishes a dichotomy between Asian and non-Asian minorities in the US, particularly African-Americans. This dichotomy has been consistently reinforced over time by white attitudes into a national racial hierarchy. This hierarchy positions non-Asian minorities as inferior to both Whites and to Asian-Americans, who are held up as by this narrative as the ‘success stories’ of American society. In this way, White American constructions of ‘Asianness’ have served as a tool to not only keep Asian-Americans separate from White society, but from all other non-Asian Americans as well.

Some of the above is snipped from my post here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1082071&postcount=7), which goes into a lot more detail on 'racist love' and the 'model minority' concept.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Trystan was that the Pot Noodle mining ad.?


Ethnic groups may have traits, that are evident in many members, but that is more cultural than biological and therfore is not a uniform truth.

Some stereotypes are more widley beleived than others. The most widespread is "he's gay cos he's effeminate", or "he's not gay, he played rugby"!

[Ken]

stereotypes are good! we live on an overpopulated flying rock and most of us in cities come into contact with far too many people to spend intimate time to get to know each other, and some of them could be dangerious! (ohno). humans have only been living like this for thousands of years so we need some way to adapt! and what do we have for this? we have stereotypes!

[Black Dagger]

stereotypes are good! we live on an overpopulated flying rock and most of us in cities come into contact with far too many people to spend intimate time to get to know each other, and some of them could be dangerious! (ohno). humans have only been living like this for thousands of years so we need some way to adapt! and what do we have for this? we have stereotypes!

You haven't explained how 'stereotypes are good'?

Stereotypes are not a substitute for 'knowing' people - they're not even an attempt to know anything - by their very nature they are an embrace of ignorance. Besides, an individual doesn't need to 'know' everyone to avoid relying on stereotypes when interacting with others - in fact the latter would most probably lead to negative interactions, hardly a marvellous 'adaptation' - but yeah, stereotypes, racism etc. it's just humans adapting to their social environment :glare:

[Ken]

nah its a good way to judge people. if it werent for labels, i would be making friends with thirteen year olds who have A's on their backs! or i would be starting conversations with groups of ethnics at 12am in the city! labels are so good and convenient.

[Mujer Libre]

nah its a good way to judge people. if it werent for labels, i would be making friends with thirteen year olds who have A's on their backs! or i would be starting conversations with groups of ethnics at 12am in the city! labels are so good and convenient.

Um sorry "ethnics?"

You're treading a bloody fine line there.

[Hiero]

Sterotypes are quite contradictory.

We have all heard about the "Asians" being naturaly gifted at maths. Then at certian periods in Australia we have all heard about young 'Asian' males being gang members. Now that "Muslims" are all the rage we are back to thoose "Asians" who are good at maths and science as being upstanding immigrants who conform well and contribute to society compared to thoose "Muslims" who ghettoise and don't conform.

Sterotypes are about social position, and specifically how a white centre perceives non-whites and then position them in regards to a grand colonailist scheme. And this is all determined on various situations usually linked to world politics.

[Ken]

yeah, but Hiero, you cant deny that stereotypes have some truth in them?

[bayano]

In one of a number of workshops I co-present about oppression and privilege, we talk about stereotypes within the contexts of oppression and privilege. This isn't the only way to thing about it, to be sure, but it can help clarify.

For one, oppressions like racism, and there are many who agree and many (who are wrong) that disagree are based on power structures which are intricately linked to capitalism. Racism and prejudice are different, as prejudice doesn't require power dynamics. Racism is a constructed ideology as part of a white supremacist capitalist system that was put together by the white ruling class and it's superstructure (scientists and clerics) to place whites on the top, and rationalize placing people of color in various subservient roles. To do this, stereotypes are among those used.

To cut to the chase, in this one particular style of oppression and privilege workshop, we depict oppressions as having three overarching levels. None of the three means exclusively 'negative' (though in the 'positive' sense it's called privilege, which is a bad thing).

Stereotype - This is the thought level. It is the assumption of a group of people, and then the assumption that that group has all the same characteristics. More on stereotypes in a moment, but of course they don't have to be racial. They can be gendered, sexual, class, lingual, national...

Prejudice - This is the level of feeling. It is the pre-judgement of a person, people or a people, based primarily on socialization. Like stereotype, it doesn't have to be racial (anti-gay or anti-islamic prejudice, or a prejudice rooted in national chauvinism), and isn't racist or sexist unless it is in the mind of people who have racial and gender privilege (and thus the system is on their side). It can also be 'positive' in that a white racist is prejudiced in favor of whites. A further distinction can be made between stereotype and prejudice (in one school of thinking, anyways) in that the latter is the value judgement. E.G., in the old days, a Mexican in North America would be stereotyped as not a good worker, as lazy, and the element of this that specifically tells us this is a bad thing is our prejudice.

discrimination - This is the level of action, where our stereotypes and prejudices cause us to treat different people differently (again, some in 'positive' ways). It is important to understand that while, in rare cases someone of privilege might be discriminated against, discrimination on the whole is a systemic activity. So, North America is made up of white supremacist capitalist countries, where the ruling class is overwhelmingly white (and much of the elites of color have shed much of their culture and identity to join their class), and racial discrimination is a fundamental tool that keeps white privilege in power.

Stereotypes, though, are complex. They aren't always just jammed into our brains, but they can have a basis in reality, even if that basis was laid by the same system that intils in us the stereotype. For example, if people in North America are told Black people are lazy, there is something reinforcing this. For, even while many people (and remember, you can be of any race to stereotype, including your own race) encounter Black service workers, there is discrimination in many sectors against Blacks, there is a lack of investment in a lot of Black communities that means there are almost no jobs in them, Blacks are far more likely than other groups to be incarcerated and then discriminated against in employment after release, and Black unemployment rate is several times that of whites, Latinos and many other races. So, stereotypes are made by a white racist capitalist system that is trying to demoralize Black communities and has no use for what it deems to be extra labor. And all of the causes of those things that are shown as evidence of a racialized laziness are actually systemic: mass incarceration, job discrimination, manufacturing lay-offs, lack of investment, etc etc. Or, that Jews are bankers, in many European countries into the 19th Century, Jews were legally restricted from a great many jobs, and Christians were restricted from usury, leaving it one of the only jobs open to Jews in some places.

Hope this helps!

[Black Dagger]

nah its a good way to judge people! ... labels are so good and convenient.

This is border-line (?) trolling.

[progressive_lefty]

Stereotypes usually start out by mistake, and once accepted, are like cement in the ground.

[Black Dagger]

I don't think they're as permanent as concrete. Because stereotypes are based on ignorance, stereotyping is reduced quite easily simply through human intereaction. Sometimes this can affirm stereotypes (it depends on how open-minded someone is, and how this interaction goes is i guess) but a lot of the time simply through this interaction stereotypes are broken down. This is where information is replacing ignorance, so an individual can see that the stereotyped impression they had before was false. This effect is probably one of the best things about 'affirmative action'.