Guided missiles and misguided men

[Qwerty Dvorak]

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Reading through the thread about MLK in OI I was reminded of this quote which, oddly enough, I first read in an introduction to an applied maths book I had in secondary school. What do people think of this quote?

[Bud Struggle]

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Reading through the thread about MLK in OI I was reminded of this quote which, oddly enough, I first read in an introduction to an applied maths book I had in secondary school. What do people think of this quote?

Well, brilliant perception on MLK's part. But that's always been the case. Human beings have always tried to "codify" their spirituality either through religion or science or day to day living. They seem to take what is a real special "gift" of mankind and try to rationalize it to death.

And for a good reason. Our spirituality is our unreason. Our irrationality, our connection to things that can't be controlled--and people like to control. It's one of our main attributes-we control rivers and forrests and mountains and ourselves--and by chaining our irrationality we chain ourselves to the tedium of our lives. We accept masters, we accept ourselves as slaves.

[Killfacer]

i like you Tom, but thats a load of shit. You make it sound as though anyone who doesnt have faith or lacks any spirituality will never be happy. I am certainly not a spiritual person and i do definatly not find my life tedious. I think it is trully wonderful. I do not need faith or spirituality to enjoy my life. But thats me and im sure others would find that faith (misplaced as it may well be) makes them happy so good luck to them.

[Bud Struggle]

i like you Tom, but thats a load of shit. You make it sound as though anyone who doesnt have faith or lacks any spirituality will never be happy. I am certainly not a spiritual person and i do definatly not find my life tedious. I think it is trully wonderful. I do not need faith or spirituality to enjoy my life. But thats me and im sure others would find that faith (misplaced as it may well be) makes them happy so good luck to them.

I wasn't talking about faith in GOD (never mentioned Him)--I was talking about our sense our ourselves outside the relm of just the material. Our hope, our will, our sense of purpose in life. Our sense that in spite of all difficulties we can do better. Our irrational belief that the world won't end in failure and misery.

People are trancendant being--we trancend our place and our time but we can often become mired in our circumstances..

That is what I think MLK was talking about. Not God, though you can definitely read him into the story if you were of a mind.

[Decolonize The Left]

I wasn't talking about faith in GOD (never mentioned Him)--I was talking about our sense our ourselves outside the relm of just the material. Our hope, our will, our sense of purpose in life. Our sense that in spite of all difficulties we can do better. Our irrational belief that the world won't end in failure and misery.

Oh, you'd like Nietzsche. Well, maybe not, I hear you're a Catholic...


People are trancendant being--we trancend our place and our time but we can often become mired in our circumstances..

Very nice observation. We are indeed a transcendent beings, but only due to our amazing capacity for memory and hence an understanding of linear time.

- August

[Killfacer]

What do you mean by "our sense of ourselves outside of the material. As for my assumptions about what you meant, i was wrong i offer my sincerest of apologies.

[Decolonize The Left]

What do you mean by "our sense of ourselves outside of the material. As for my assumptions about what you meant, i was wrong i offer my sincerest of apologies.

In the future, could you please quote the person you are responding to for clarity? It's easy - just click the "Quote" box next to the "Reply" box and then type your response/question below the quoted text.

This way people don't have to search the thread for who you're speaking to and quoting. Thanks.

- August

[Bud Struggle]

I believe he was referring to a post by me.


What do you mean by "our sense of ourselves outside of the material. As for my assumptions about what you meant, i was wrong i offer my sincerest of apologies.

First of all Kill, your apology is graciously accepted.

As by sensing ourselves outside the material--we can image ourselves beyond what we are doing at the moment--we can dream, we can hope we can posit better world for ourselves and our children. We can explore our conciousness.

We can understand music in terms that go beyond just hearing a series of notes--music and the other arts can chang our moods and our perceptions of things.

A mule, for example can't do that. It can't surmount the day to day life it leads. You can chain it to uolling a wheel and as long as it's fed--it wi;ll be happy to pull the wheel all it's life.

There's something different about people.

[Killfacer]

I believe he was referring to a post by me.



First of all Kill, your apology is graciously accepted.

As by sensing ourselves outside the material--we can image ourselves beyond what we are doing at the moment--we can dream, we can hope we can posit better world for ourselves and our children. We can explore our conciousness.

We can understand music in terms that go beyond just hearing a series of notes--music and the other arts can chang our moods and our perceptions of things.

A mule, for example can't do that. It can't surmount the day to day life it leads. You can chain it to uolling a wheel and as long as it's fed--it wi;ll be happy to pull the wheel all it's life.

There's something different about people.

I agree with you for the most part. Yet i fail to see how when we codify our "spirtuality" (a term which annoys be as it has superstitious connotations) we tie ourselves to the tedium of every day life. What do you mean by this?

[Decolonize The Left]

As by sensing ourselves outside the material--we can image ourselves beyond what we are doing at the moment--we can dream, we can hope we can posit better world for ourselves and our children. We can explore our conciousness.

We can understand music in terms that go beyond just hearing a series of notes--music and the other arts can chang our moods and our perceptions of things.

A mule, for example can't do that. It can't surmount the day to day life it leads. You can chain it to uolling a wheel and as long as it's fed--it wi;ll be happy to pull the wheel all it's life.

There's something different about people.

Unfortunately, you have merely posited that this is "sensing ourselves outside the material."

A much simpler explanation would be that your brain is capable of processing daily perceptions into deeper forms of meaning and purpose, and coupled with our understanding of linear time, we can use our imagination to formulate many different scenarios in our minds.

A mule cannot do this.

I see no reason why anything is 'beyond material' here....

- August

[Killfacer]

Unfortunately, you have merely posited that this is "sensing ourselves outside the material."

A much simpler explanation would be that your brain is capable of processing daily perceptions into deeper forms of meaning and purpose, and coupled with our understanding of linear time, we can use our imagination to formulate many different scenarios in our minds.

A mule cannot do this.

I see no reason why anything is 'beyond material' here....

- August

This is what i was trying to say, yet i lacked august's eloquence.

[Bud Struggle]

This is what i was trying to say, yet i lacked august's eloquence.

You are muchly elequent on your own, Killfacer. :thumbup:

[Bud Struggle]

Unfortunately, you have merely posited that this is "sensing ourselves outside the material."

A much simpler explanation would be that your brain is capable of processing daily perceptions into deeper forms of meaning and purpose, and coupled with our understanding of linear time, we can use our imagination to formulate many different scenarios in our minds.

A mule cannot do this.

I see no reason why anything is 'beyond material' here....

- August[/quote]

Simpler? I think not! That's the problem with "reason". Does it explain "meaning." Or happiness" or "justice?" It tells us that 2+2=4. and little else.

[Decolonize The Left]

Simpler? I think not! That's the problem with "reason". Does it explain "meaning." Or happiness" or "justice?" It tells us that 2+2=4. and little else.

Of course it does.

"Happiness" is "joy, the emotion of being happy." (wiktionary.com)
What is happiness really? Probably a series of chemicals (endorphins, etc..) being released in your brain promoting a sense of well-being and joy.

"Justice" is "the state of being fair, or just." (wiktionary.com)
What is justice really? A concept used to help regulate behavior in accordance with emotional tendencies towards compassion and retribution.

"Meaning" is "the symbolic value of something." (wiktionary.com)
What is meaning really? Meaning is what our species infuses into our existence as a result of an evolutionary trait (a mind - that is, a brain capable of self-reflection). It is the principle behind 'purpose,' 'reason,' 'God,' and everything. Without meaning there is no person, no I, only physics and chemistry - clouds of atoms.

Of course I have used reason and logic to deduce all of these answers - and the dictionary is a tool constructed through reason and logic.

- August