Cuba puts dissident punk rocker on trial

[communard resolution]

From today's Guardian newspaper:

Cuba is to charge a punk rocker today with "social dangerousness" because his songs denounce and deride the communist government.
Gorki Aguila, lead singer of Porno para Ricardo, faces up to four years in prison for openly defying the revolution and scorning Fidel and Raul Castro as "geriatrics".
The 39-year-old has been in police custody since Monday and was due to appear at the Playa municipal court in western Havana to be charged with subverting "communist morality".
The case has triggered protests from artists and human rights groups. Supporters were due yesterday to assemble at Havana's Malecón promenade to protest. "We invite everyone to gather and shout Gorki," said the band's website.
Police arrested Aguila at his home where he was completing a new album provisionally called Geriatric Central Committee, a reference to the ageing leadership.
Formed 10 years ago as part of an underground music movement, Porno para Ricardo is banned from official airwaves.
The Cuban Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation, an illegal but tolerated group, said the singer had infuriated the authorities with some of his latest lyrics but had not violated the law. "Gorki Aguila has not committed any specific crime as defined by the current criminal code," it said in a statement.
Aguila had asked for "diplomatic observers" to attend the trial but has refused legal help from the US-based Cuban American National Foundation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/29/cuba.humanrights

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

That sucks

[OI OI OI]

I support his attitude towards the bureaucracy but I don't know his politics .
So can someone give us some info if this guy is a cappie or not?
If not then I condemn this act by the bureaucracy but I understand that under these material conditions for Cuba unfortunately some human rights have to be violated for the good of the revolution

[communard resolution]

I agree that it would be helpful to know this guy's politics since these days a punk rocker can be pretty much anything from commie to anarchist to capitalist to nazi (come to think of it, that has always been the case to some extent).

Somehow, though, I've got a sneaking suspicion it's just the same kind of thing as back in communist Poland, Bulgaria, etc, when cops arrested you and kicked the shit out of you at the station for being a "fascist" (= sporting a punk rock haircut). They too had their justifications how in that particular situation -the Cold War and such- one couldn't let people do as they pleased. But you know what? They were just common pigs. Same as the worst cops in the West.

What kind of country is that where you can't even sing a punk rock song? Certainly not one I'd like to live in. And what does that say about the popular support for the regime when such a banal act is perceived as a threat?

[Pirate Utopian]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401490.html

Interview with the band he's in.
Shit's fucked up.

[FreeFocus]

If not then I condemn this act by the bureaucracy but I understand that under these material conditions for Cuba unfortunately some human rights have to be violated for the good of the revolution

What a miserable attitude. A revolution that violates human rights is no revolution at all, and makes the "vanguard" just as bad as the ruling class it seeks to replace. The violation of human rights should not be tolerated in any capacity, and such violations should make those parties involved with the offenses enemies of those who seek a more decent and just world, not friends.

At least this musician refuses to go to a reactionary group like the CANF. I support Aguila, he's a victim of state thuggery.

[PRC-UTE]

What a miserable attitude. A revolution that violates human rights is no revolution at all, and makes the "vanguard" just as bad as the ruling class it seeks to replace. The violation of human rights should not be tolerated in any capacity, and such violations should make those parties involved with the offenses enemies of those who seek a more decent and just world, not friends.

At least this musician refuses to go to a reactionary group like the CANF. I support Aguila, he's a victim of state thuggery.

ah come off it, don't pretend anarchists are better in this regard than anyone else. They enthusiastically executed priests and even carried out personal vendettas during Spain's civil war. Time to realise that the murky waters of reality are flooding your moral highground.

[revolution inaction]

ah come off it, don't pretend anarchists are better in this regard than anyone else. They enthusiastically executed priests and even carried out personal vendettas during Spain's civil war. Time to realise that the murky waters of reality are flooding your moral highground.

It has never been anarchist policy to do stuff like that, personal vendettas are personal and anarchists who do then are most likely not revolutionaries (and maybe not anarchist), and anyway whats wrong with executing priests?

[nuisance]

ah come off it, don't pretend anarchists are better in this regard than anyone else. They enthusiastically executed priests and even carried out personal vendettas during Spain's civil war. Time to realise that the murky waters of reality are flooding your moral highground.
Exactly, it was hardly under the same circumstances.

[OI OI OI]

here is Gorki talking about how we have to improve capitalism because communism has failed
http://www.pornopararicardo.com/videos/gorki-en-cnn-cuban-band-blasts-government.html


These are the innocent counter-revolutionaries.
Give me a break with the idealist shit talk about human rights.

When socialism in Cuba is being attacked from all sides , when the pressure is bigger then ever, we have those idiot counter-revolutionary punks inciting people against the revolution.


Do you want Cubans to lose their healthcare , education, jobs, housing etc and return to capitalism? Do you want the Americans to turn Cuba to Hawaii ?
If so keep supporting those mindless freaks. And keep shouting your idealist bullshit about human rights. He is a counter-revolutionary and he needs to be treated as such.



Exactly, it was hardly under the same circumstances

No the circumstances are almost the same.

[More Fire for the People]

I hope this leads to the extradition of Pitbull.

[nuisance]

No the circumstances are almost the same.
This is a complete insult.
Also it is ridiculous to equate political violence during a war with that of governmental surpression by an established State.

[OI OI OI]

This is a complete insult.
Also it is ridiculous to equate political violence during a war with that of governmental surpression by an established State.

Omg a pro capitalist was oppressed.
OPPRESSION OPPRESSION!

Do you think that the state in Cuba is established once and for all?
It is fragile because of all the attacks against it.
And now we have some stupid punks saying how capitalism is superior .
And some of the people on the "revolutionary left" is crying oppression because of the suppression of the reactionaries.

This is what divorces me from anarchism even more.

Such ridiculus petit-bourgeois attitudes

[Pirate Utopian]

This band is kinda rubbish.
But still it's just a fucking band, not a political organisation or whatever but a band.
As Steve Ignorant would say "They're not gonna change system"

[Plagueround]

Omg a pro capitalist was oppressed.
OPPRESSION OPPRESSION!

Do you think that the state in Cuba is established once and for all?
It is fragile because of all the attacks against it.
And now we have some stupid punks saying how capitalism is superior .
And some of the people on the "revolutionary left" is crying oppression because of the suppression of the reactionaries.

This is what divorces me from anarchism even more.

Such ridiculus petit-bourgeois attitudes

I'm sure the suppression of a musician is going to go over well and won't create more dissent. :rolleyes:

[FreeFocus]

Someone simply voicing his opinion shouldn't be killed for it. I express no solidarity with people on the left who hold such authoritarian beliefs, because it's fucking pathetic to claim you care so much about the oppressed worker when you then turn around and murder someone because they disagree with you.

I'm not a fan of Cuban red bureaucracy. That being said, it's resisted imperialism, which is commendable, but it's not perfect, so lay off that. If Aguila was inciting violence against workers, fine, take him down. But merely for voicing his opinion, I refuse to support that, and this is indeed state thuggery.

[OI OI OI]

Someone simply voicing his opinion shouldn't be killed for it. I express no solidarity with people on the left who hold such authoritarian beliefs, because it's fucking pathetic to claim you care so much about the oppressed worker when you then turn around and murder someone because they disagree with you.

Oh ya I forgot the guy is going to be excecuted:rolleyes:


I'm not a fan of Cuban red bureaucracy


Me neither , especialy the pro-chinese tendencies



That being said, it's resisted imperialism, which is commendable, but it's not perfect, so lay off that. If Aguila was inciting violence against workers, fine, take him down. But merely for voicing his opinion, I refuse to support that, and this is indeed state thuggery.

But he is doing exactly that .
Indirectly .
He is inciting anti-communist and anti-revolutionary beliefs .
And we should not allow people expressing those beliefs publicly in a socialist society under these material conditions.,
We all know how the Cubans are going to suffer if socialism falls in Cuba.



I'm sure the suppression of a musician is going to go over well and won't create more dissent. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

No we should leave pro-capitalist reactionary counter-revolutionaries free to go around in the public and support capitalism and imperialism. .....

I am sick of all this petit-bourgeois pseudo-revolutionary talk .
I will not respond to anything else I think my point is clear and understandable to those who have a brain bigger than a chickens

[Plagueround]

I am sick of all this petit-bourgeois pseudo-revolutionary talk .
I will not respond to anything else I think my point is clear and understandable to those who have a brain bigger than a chickens

Your point is clear and understandable...it doesn't make it more correct (neither does insulting people's brain size or labeling the petit-bourgeois).

Are you denying that people don't get huge amounts of sympathy and support if they are jailed for voicing an opinion against their government? We live in a day and age where you can't simply make someone's opinion disappear by putting them in jail or killing them, look how much attention its already been given...if anything you add fuel to their cause. I'm not saying the guy is a hero or correct in this instance, I'm just saying jailing him probably counters exactly what they're trying to accomplish.

[FreeFocus]

Oh ya I forgot the guy is going to be excecuted:rolleyes:

Me neither , especialy the pro-chinese tendencies

But he is doing exactly that .
Indirectly .
He is inciting anti-communist and anti-revolutionary beliefs .
And we should not allow people expressing those beliefs publicly in a socialist society under these material conditions.,
We all know how the Cubans are going to suffer if socialism falls in Cuba.

Guess what, Cubans are suffering right now. Granted, part of that is due to the brutal US sanctions/the embargo.

I wasn't saying Aguila would be executed, but you insinuated that it's all right to attack "counter-revolutionaries," just because they disagree with you (they may not be organizing to restore capitalism or imperialism, just voicing their opinion) and murder, terrorism, and torture are the logical extension and real-world manifestations of what you're advocating.

[OI OI OI]

Guess what, Cubans are suffering right now.

This
This is why I don't argue with the petit bourgeois over-critical left because they come up with petit bourgeois stupidities .
Sorry I won't let myself be dragged to that.
I have enough right-wingers in my immediate surroundings I didn't come on revleft to meet some more.




I wasn't saying Aguila would be executed, but you insinuated that it's all right to attack "counter-revolutionaries," just because they disagree with you (they may not be organizing to restore capitalism or imperialism, just voicing their opinion) and murder, terrorism, and torture are the logical extension and real-world manifestations of what you're advocating.

First of all imprisonment does not mean torture and murder.
Second of all your petit bourgeois sentiments are far away from the real class struggle and the figt to overthrow the opressors and that is apparent on this post to all rvolutionaries.
Further talk=waste of time.

[FreeFocus]

Answer the question, are Cubans suffering now, yes or no? Have you been to Cuba? Have you seen the food crisis there? Have you starved with the people?

OI OI OI, imprisonment is the denial of one's freedom, which ranks up there with torture and murder. You can't imprison people just because they disagree. If they were attacking you physically or sabotaging, fine, but imprisonment because of opinion is one of the worst violations of a basic human right.

[OI OI OI]

Answer the question, are Cubans suffering now, yes or no? Have you been to Cuba? Have you seen the food crisis there? Have you starved with the people?

Cubans are a million times better off than ALL of the countries comparable to Cuba which is all of the Carribean. Of course they are better off than any other country in Latin America.

No Cuban starves or suffers despite of the position of worldwide alianation cuba is in .Of course all these achievements are thanks to the socialist economy.



OI OI OI, imprisonment is the denial of one's freedom, which ranks up there with torture and murder. You can't imprison people just because they disagree. If they were attacking you physically or sabotaging, fine, but imprisonment because of opinion is one of the worst violations of a basic human right.

In socialism going out and publicly denounce socialism while supporting imperialism and capitalism has to be punished.

Cubans are allowed to think and talk about whatever they want and have the opinion they want.
Its another thing having an opinion and another thing to do concerts in which you incite anti-socialist and counter-revolutionary propaganda to the minds of the youth who usualy go to concerts and especialy in a crucial period like this.

He should not be imprisonned but exiled for life from Cuba as he is a waste of resources in prison .

He is a worthless pro-capitalist piece of shit.

Go here http://www.cubatruth.org/
This I hope will counter the right wing propaganda you are fed all these years.
In Cuba people are not starving or suffering

[Bilan]

ah come off it, don't pretend anarchists are better in this regard than anyone else. They enthusiastically executed priests and even carried out personal vendettas during Spain's civil war. Time to realise that the murky waters of reality are flooding your moral highground.

Anarchists didn't execute priests willy-nilly. It's well acknowledged priests supported the fascists, and armed priests on the sides of the priests were not uncommon.
But you can conveniently leave that out if you want ;)

Or how many deaths, and imprisonments of workers the Catholic Church was responsible for.

Hush hush.

And the "vendettas" were against Pistoleros, people who had been murdering anarchist militants and workers throughout Spain.

Convenient to leave important details, innit?

[FreeFocus]

I acknowledge the great advances in terms of health care and education in Cuba, but OI OI OI, stop acting like it's some paradise. Living conditions are better than many Latin American countries but I mean, it's hard to worse off than those countries are at the moment. However, the on-ground realities exist in stark contrast to the picture you're painting. The reality is dilapidated, depressed slums that many live in, poor employment opportunities, and extreme forms of food rationing in some areas. Again, as I said before, some of this is because of the brutal US embargo.

[#FF0000]

In Cuba people are not starving or suffering

Well, damn, then why worry about counter-revolutionary musicians? After all, if people are well-fed, happy, and feel they can trust the state and have a future, then what effect is some kid in a band gonna have?

[OI OI OI]

Well, damn, then why worry about counter-revolutionary musicians? After all, if people are well-fed, happy, and feel they can trust the state and have a future, then what effect is some kid in a band gonna have?

I love how you make new meaning for words.
Not suffering and not starving became well-fed and happy.
Cuba is better off all Latin American country but as I repeated in my previous posts which you obviously did not read that there are material conditions for reaction etc and this is a very crucial period for the revolution.

Cubans dont starve but they do not have cars , mansions satelite tv and hamburgers like their fat neighbours have.
Some backwards layers of the Cubans might become reactionary as not everyone is a concious communist.

Reaction has to be surpresed and especialy when it comes from a pro-capitalist band which has influence on the youth.

But I forgot, for you anarchists Cuba and the US are the same they are both capitalist , one state capitalist and one not.

So why am I bothering arguing with people I can never connect with ?

[#FF0000]

I love how you make new meaning for words.
Not suffering and not starving became well-fed and happy.
Cuba is better off all Latin American country but as I repeated in my previous posts which you obviously did not read that there are material conditions for reaction etc and this is a very crucial period for the revolution.

Cubans dont starve but they do not have cars , mansions satelite tv and hamburgers like their fat neighbours have.
Some backwards layers of the Cubans might become reactionary as not everyone is a concious communist.

Reaction has to be surpresed and especialy when it comes from a pro-capitalist band which has influence on the youth.

But I forgot, for you anarchists Cuba and the US are the same they are both capitalist , one state capitalist and one not.

So why am I bothering arguing with people I can never connect with ?

Hey, I never said they had to have all the luxuries Americans have, or even most. If what you're saying is true and the Cuban people aren't straight-up suffering or starving, then there's no reason to act out against a single musician like this.

[OI OI OI]

Hey, I never said they had to have all the luxuries Americans have, or even most. If what you're saying is true and the Cuban people aren't straight-up suffering or starving, then there's no reason to act out against a single musician like this.So in your opinion material conditions for (counter) revolution exist only when people starve and suffer?
nice logic...

[#FF0000]

So in your opinion material conditions for (counter) revolution exist only when people starve and suffer?
nice logic...

So people are going to revolt when things seem to be working out reasonably well for them?

[Michael2]

whoever made cubatruth.org was on crack when they made it (or it is made by the state and loaded with their bullshit, the state was high on cuban marijuana cigars)



Q&A

They say its not a dictatorship when its ran by a DICTATOR thus its a dictatorship! theres no way you can sugar coat this.
It mentions elections. um ya theres no such thing as an "election" in a dictatorship. I mean there might be ones to test loyalty to the leader. If they don't vote for the dictator they are hunted down and killed.
It says 99% of the eligible people vote. uh.. whats an "eligible" person?
It says the dictator and government officials play with the people. um. if i was playing a game with him... i best let him win or be put to death if i beat him.
It says there are 5 people in prison from cuba because they were suspected terrorists. um... they deserve it because they are illegal
It says they support human rights... whatever bullshit!


Poverty

Cuba has a 4% poverty rating? I think they meant 4% is NOT in poverty. (the actual poverty rate is 96%)


Infant Mortality - 5% and the us has 7??
Unemployment= 1.9% ya cuz the government gives you no other choice!! you must work for what shit pay you get or else
unattended births= 100% bullshit

This site is a crock of bullshit.

Dont forget they wanted to nuke the united states! (see Cuban Missle Crises)

This is a shame to humanity and the values behind socialism

Edit: When he fell on his ass I wish he died of a fatal brain injury to put him out of his misery so he can go to hell. It says he killed over 2000 people. now this aint no hitler, but still alot of people. Well okay bush killed some too

[OI OI OI]

whoever made cubatruth.org was on crack when they made it (or it is made by the state and loaded with their bullshit, the state was high on cuban marijuana cigars)



Q&A

They say its not a dictatorship when its ran by a DICTATOR thus its a dictatorship! theres no way you can sugar coat this.
It mentions elections. um ya theres no such thing as an "election" in a dictatorship. I mean there might be ones to test loyalty to the leader. If they don't vote for the dictator they are hunted down and killed.
It says 99% of the eligible people vote. uh.. whats an "eligible" person?
It says the dictator and government officials play with the people. um. if i was playing a game with him... i best let him win or be put to death if i beat him.
It says there are 5 people in prison from cuba because they were suspected terrorists. um... they deserve it because they are illegal
It says they support human rights... whatever bullshit!

Poverty

Cuba has a 4% poverty rating? I think they meant 4% is NOT in poverty. (the actual poverty rate is 96%)

Infant Mortality - 5% and the us has 7??
Unemployment= 1.9% ya cuz the government gives you no other choice!! you must work for what shit pay you get or else
unattended births= 100% bullshit

This site is a crock of bullshit.

Dont forget they wanted to nuke the united states! (see Cuban Missle Crises)

This is a shame to humanity and the values behind socialism

Edit: When he fell on his ass I wish he died of a fatal brain injury to put him out of his misery so he can go to hell. It says he killed over 2000 people. now this aint no hitler, but still alot of people. Well okay bush killed some too


This

Who can make a distinction between anarchists and cappies?
Because I am sure that this was posted by a cappie.



So people are going to revolt when things seem to be working out reasonably well for them?

Again I said in Cuba people don't starve and suffer but they are not first world.

So there is always the danger of having a social base for reaction in the backwards layers of the proletariat...

[Plagueround]

whoever made cubatruth.org was on crack when they made it (or it is made by the state and loaded with their bullshit, the state was high on cuban marijuana cigars)



Q&A

They say its not a dictatorship when its ran by a DICTATOR thus its a dictatorship! theres no way you can sugar coat this.
It mentions elections. um ya theres no such thing as an "election" in a dictatorship. I mean there might be ones to test loyalty to the leader. If they don't vote for the dictator they are hunted down and killed.
It says 99% of the eligible people vote. uh.. whats an "eligible" person?
It says the dictator and government officials play with the people. um. if i was playing a game with him... i best let him win or be put to death if i beat him.
It says there are 5 people in prison from cuba because they were suspected terrorists. um... they deserve it because they are illegal
It says they support human rights... whatever bullshit!


Poverty

Cuba has a 4% poverty rating? I think they meant 4% is NOT in poverty. (the actual poverty rate is 96%)


Infant Mortality - 5% and the us has 7??
Unemployment= 1.9% ya cuz the government gives you no other choice!! you must work for what shit pay you get or else
unattended births= 100% bullshit

This site is a crock of bullshit.

Dont forget they wanted to nuke the united states! (see Cuban Missle Crises)

This is a shame to humanity and the values behind socialism

Edit: When he fell on his ass I wish he died of a fatal brain injury to put him out of his misery so he can go to hell. It says he killed over 2000 people. now this aint no hitler, but still alot of people. Well okay bush killed some too

I'm rather objective on such things and generally don't believe everything one website says...but I'm rather curious as to what source you have that verifies everything cubatruth.org says is entirely "bullshit".

[Michael2]

I want someone to do a whois on that site.

I bet it leads right back to the cuban government!

For example it says the new president was democratically elected.

parade.com/dictators/2008/profiles/raul-castro.html
marathonpundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/raul-castro-new-dictator-of-cuba.html

Theres the proof you wanted.

[Plagueround]

Even if it did, most of their information is backed by non-biased sources.

[Decolonize The Left]

whoever made cubatruth.org was on crack when they made it (or it is made by the state and loaded with their bullshit, the state was high on cuban marijuana cigars)



Q&A

They say its not a dictatorship when its ran by a DICTATOR thus its a dictatorship! theres no way you can sugar coat this.
It mentions elections. um ya theres no such thing as an "election" in a dictatorship. I mean there might be ones to test loyalty to the leader. If they don't vote for the dictator they are hunted down and killed.
It says 99% of the eligible people vote. uh.. whats an "eligible" person?
It says the dictator and government officials play with the people. um. if i was playing a game with him... i best let him win or be put to death if i beat him.
It says there are 5 people in prison from cuba because they were suspected terrorists. um... they deserve it because they are illegal
It says they support human rights... whatever bullshit!


Poverty

Cuba has a 4% poverty rating? I think they meant 4% is NOT in poverty. (the actual poverty rate is 96%)


Infant Mortality - 5% and the us has 7??
Unemployment= 1.9% ya cuz the government gives you no other choice!! you must work for what shit pay you get or else
unattended births= 100% bullshit

This site is a crock of bullshit.

Dont forget they wanted to nuke the united states! (see Cuban Missle Crises)

This is a shame to humanity and the values behind socialism

Edit: When he fell on his ass I wish he died of a fatal brain injury to put him out of his misery so he can go to hell. It says he killed over 2000 people. now this aint no hitler, but still alot of people. Well okay bush killed some too

Ok, so we have a website backed by non-biased sources vs. your unjustified claims...

And why should anyone listen to you?

- August

[sixdollarchampagne]

According to the band's website, Gorki Aguila was released, he only had to pay a fine, 600 pesos. The charges were reduced from "social dangerousness" which, they say, is a serious crime in Cuba, to noise and some other petty stuff. The Cuban regime has a history of persecuting creative people -- they were imprisoning poets in the sixties, and they put the writer Arenas in prison -- he then turned his experience into a book; repression of the innocuous is apparently a tradition that Raul intends to continue. The band's website says that international pressure helped get him released.

My own opinion is that I cannot believe that one punk rock band, four guys, socially isolated in Cuba, with a minimal public, could seriously threaten the regime with its vast repressive apparatus.

[communard resolution]

Give me a break with the idealist shit talk about human rights.

My bid is that you will only think of human rights as "idealist shit talk" until your own human rights get violated.


we have those idiot counter-revolutionary punks inciting people against the revolution. Let them be "idiot counter-revolutionary punks" if that's what they want to be. They aren't involved in acts of sabotage. They aren't collecting funds for the counter-revolution. They are merely stating their opinion on something, and I can't help feeling that they're more entitled to that opinion than you, who is comfortably watching the events from a first-world country and sneers at "counter-revolutionaries" just because his organisation told him to "critically support Cuba"

So I suppose you critically support Cuba. So do I. But "critically" means "critically", not "in denial of any human rights violations" or "supportive of stone age communist sentiments".


Do you want Cubans to lose their healthcare , education, jobs, housing etc and return to capitalism? Do you want the Americans to turn Cuba to Hawaii ? No, we don't want that. The revolution in Cuba was a good and absolutely necessary thing to happen. I support their system of free healthcare, free education, guaranteed employment. Before the revolution, the majority of the population was living in shit.

But now it's 50 years after the revolution, and it turns out not everything Castro ever did was hunky-dory. The persecution of homosexuals was a terrible crime. But even that I'm willing to blame on traditional latin machismo, and I forgive Cuba because there has been a massive liberalization in the past years. Castro's daughter has initiated an anti-homophobia campaign, and sex change operations are now socially acceptable and free of charge. Even the old man himself has changed his mind on homosexuality. Bravo!

But whenever Cuban communists revert into prehistoric attitudes such as imprisoning people for voicing their opinion, I cannot support that because I know this is not the right path towards socialism and the emancipation of the common people.

Do you know that film "Reds" about John Reed? It's only a movie, but it features an awesome quote: "as a true revolutionary you cannot outlaw dissent because dissent IS the revolution."

And no, I don't think Cuba is just another (state) capitalist country. It's state socialist, which is fine since state socialism is the best we have been able to establish so far. I hope the tendency towards social liberalisation in Cuba will continue, while at the same time I hope Cuba will not sell out and open its gates to US imperialism. I don't think punishing punk rock singers for singing critical songs is the way to go.


He is a counter-revolutionary and he needs to be treated as such.Do you really not see that this is just a case of governments labeling anyone who doesn't uncritically support their every step something 'terrible' to silence them ("counter-revolutionary" in Cuba's case, "anti-American" in America's case)? It's the same thing everywhere in the world and always has been. And there's always an excuse, be it "material conditions" or a "terrorist threat".

And again: in 'communist' Poland and Bulgaria the police beat punk kids bloody for no reason, calling them "fascists" for sporting spiky haircuts. They too had their justification (the Cold War and such), and perhaps they really believed they were fighting the counter-revolution while kicking some little punk kid's stomach... but I doubt it.

I think we Communists should learn from mistakes that happened in the past rather than repeat them or deny those that are still being made, let alone support them. Don't just "(un)critically support" everything your party or organisation puts in front of you while closing your eyes to things that are obviously wrong. That punk guy in Cuba could be you.

It's all good and well violently suppressing counter-revolutionary activity that constitutes an actual threat to the revolution, during and after. But censoring people's opinions or punishing them for thought crimes once you're in power is an outdated, ineffective method to lead the masses to socialism. Please think about this. If you don't, I don't have much hope that "Communism - The Next Generation" will be an improvement to the past.

[AutomaticMan]

A society where people are persecuted for expressing their opinions is not one worth having. Um, it's like, you know, Free Speech.

I could understand it if they were leaders of a reactionary organisation convincing people to join the counterrevolution, but they should be allowed to express their disdain at whatever they like peacefully.

[Charles Xavier]

I acknowledge the great advances in terms of health care and education in Cuba, but OI OI OI, stop acting like it's some paradise. Living conditions are better than many Latin American countries but I mean, it's hard to worse off than those countries are at the moment. However, the on-ground realities exist in stark contrast to the picture you're painting. The reality is dilapidated, depressed slums that many live in, poor employment opportunities, and extreme forms of food rationing in some areas. Again, as I said before, some of this is because of the brutal US embargo.



Welcome to the developing world there are slums in every country in the developing world. Communist or not. However, unlike the rest of the developing world. Cuba is much better organized, noone starves to death, everyone has a home, everyone has work, everyone has electricity, water, and television, everyone has healthcare, vacation time, and 8 hour work days. Contrast that to the rest of Latin America even countries with Higher GDP per Capita, where there are a great number that don't.

[nuisance]

Omg a pro capitalist was oppressed.
OPPRESSION OPPRESSION!
Prefering capitalism to the state they are leaving in is hardly a pro-capitalist. Yes, what he said was stupid but he doesn't need to be imprisioned for it.


Do you think that the state in Cuba is established once and for all?
It is fragile because of all the attacks against it.
You're right, it is far less established than that of the Spanish system circa the Spanish revolution.:rolleyes:

And now we have some stupid punks saying how capitalism is superior .
And some of the people on the "revolutionary left" is crying oppression because of the suppression of the reactionaries.
It's encouraging to see that you believe your ideology is that piss poor that one punk band needs to be surpressed as reactionaries, which only increases the bands noriety, as they are a actual threat. Does the Cuban government have no accountability?


This is what divorces me from anarchism even more.
Because we don't think one person should be imprisoned based on a disagreement?


Such ridiculus petit-bourgeois attitudes
Terrible slander.

[sixdollarchampagne]

At the end of his trial in Havana, Cuban punk musician Gorki Aguila reaffirms his “hatred of this dictatorship” By Paulo A. Paranagua

LE MONDE | 30.08.08 | 14:16 hours • Updated 31.08.08 | 15:24 hours

Cuban musician Gorki Aguila, leader of the punk rock group Porno Para Ricardo, was released by a court of Havana, Friday, August 29, after four days of detention. The court imposed a fine of 600 pesos (20 euros) [$29.38 US].
The hearing was closed to the foreign press and Western diplomats. But Elizardo Sanchez Santa Cruz, organized of the Cuban Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation (not recognized by the authorities), the father of the accused, the band’s guitar player and blogger Yoani Sanchez (Generation Y), were admitted to the courtroom.

Gorki Aguila appeared for “dangerousness,” a charge of the Cuban penal code liable to four years’ imprisonment. According the Elizardo Sanchez, the trial, which began after a ten-hour delay, was “a farce.” “The charge of dangerousness is a legal monstrosity against people who have committed no crime,” he explained. “What is worrisome, is that it is used against dissidents. If this charge disappeared from the penal code, some thousands of people would leave the prisons.”

At the trial, the accusation rested on the evidence of two cops and the chairman of the “Committee for the Defense of the Revolution,” the district surveillance organization. “The charge of dangerousness became disobedience, but they were not able to prove anything,” Mr. Sanchez asserted. “The motivation was purely political.” Gorki Aguila “was arrested and kept four days in a police station, under inhuman conditions, solely because of the words of his songs.”

Fidel Castro, the “walking coma”

Besides his “counterrevolutionary words,” the authorities blame the musician for his “asocial behavior, of not voting in elections, nor participating in political meetings and activities,” Ciro Diaz, who plays the guitar in Porno Para Ricardo, asserts. “Our songs were about sex, but they began to harass and repress us; then we reacted,” he added. “That is what pushed us to where we are.”
After the CD, “I am porno, I am popular,” the group recorded an album entitled, “I don’t like politics, but politics really likes me, comrade.” A song written after the illness of Fidel Castro mocks, “El Coma andante,” (the walking Coma), with the words, “These years of hunger and shadows all bear your name, Fidel.” The CD in preparation is called, “Central Geriatric Committee.”

Gorki Aguila, 39, a figure in the underground scene, works at the silkscreen workshop of the Cuban Institute of Art and the Cinema Industry (ICAIC). In 2005, he was sentenced to four years in prison, of which he served half. This sentence for using narcotics prevented him from participating in the shooting of the film Habana Blues (2005), produced by the Spaniard Benito Zambrano.

The latest arrest of the leader of Porno Para Ricardo aroused protests in Cuba and overseas. Thursday, during a concert on the Malecon (Havana’s seashore), a group of protestors was roughed up by cops.

A petition by exiled Cuban intellectuals, including the musician Paquito D'Rivera, asked Cuban artists like Pablo Milanés and Omara Portuondo to show their support for Gorki Aguila. The Spanish singers Miguel Bosé and Alejandro Sanz joined those who signed. “I am proud of all these people who expressed their solidarity, and I feel more hatred against this dictatorship,” the leader of Porno Para Ricardo declared on leaving the court.

* * *

In the Nicole Kidman film “The Invasion” one of those infected with the virus that dehumanizes them declares, “In our world, there is no other.” I am guessing that Cuba today is a lot like that world. -- YM

[communard resolution]

The name of the band is even a play on cuban censorship. Porno is illegal in cuba, and one of the guitarist is a fan of porno. Fuck living in a poor communist hellhole!!!!

Fuck you and get the fuck out of here. We all have different opinions on this issue and on Cuba in general, but we don't have time for a braindead troll.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The name of the band is even a play on cuban censorship. Porno is illegal in cuba, and one of the guitarist is a fan of porno. Fuck living in a poor communist hellhole!!!!


http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5746/censoredmarxjd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[OI OI OI]

This comes down to a basic argument.
Should we or should we not supress counter-revolutionaries in a socialist country?
I would say yes.
Reaction has to be supressed but of course we should allow valid and constructive criticism.
This band doesn't make either valid not constructive criticism and in my opinion should be supressed.

I won't bother responding to anything said above as it is a waste of time.


Times like this make me wonder the quality of the revolutionaries on revleft.
Yes we are all up to revolution.
But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.

You remind me of Morales who wants democracy and freedom and lets the fascists and bourgeois run around and sabotage the state, beating up genuine leftists and spreading their propaganda.

Woe to that.

[nuisance]

This comes down to a basic argument.
Should we or should we not supress counter-revolutionaries in a socialist country?
That's not the question, no matter how much you like to think it is. The point is, is it necessary to suppress a singer of a punk band, not any sort of organised group of counter-revolutionaries about to partake in armed struggle. Fact is, if Cuba was so idealistic, then why is this band around? They are not ideologically capitalist, and are singing about there experiences.

Reaction has to be supressed but of course we should allow valid and constructive criticism.
This band doesn't make either valid not constructive criticism and in my opinion should be supressed.
Do you actually know any of there criticisms, other than rephrasing the capitalist remark Gorki made?

Times like this make me wonder the quality of the revolutionaries on revleft.
Yes we are all up to revolution.
But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.
Not all members of revleft are statists, so it isn't a surprising as you make out that people are speaking against the State repression happening in Cuba. For example in Ukraine settlements controlled by the Makhnovists, there was complete freedom of press.
Also, what petit bourgeois notions? You labelling an attitude as petit-bourgeois does not make it so.

[OI OI OI]

That's not the question, no matter how much you like to think it is. The point is, is it necessary to suppress a singer of a punk band, not any sort of organised group of counter-revolutionaries about to partake in armed struggle. Fact is, if Cuba was so idealistic, then why is this band around? They are not ideologically capitalist, and are singing about there experiences.


Sorry but the band members claim otherwise.
Theyclaim to be pro-capitalist.
And this is what it comes down to either you want it or not.
I never claimed that Cuba is a paradise but it is certainly better than countries with similar historyand georgraphy meaning Latin American coutris and that thanks tothe advanced socialized economy.

And this punk band can be a real threat especialy if they have influence upon the outh.
That being said supression of the reaction is necessary.
In Spain for example there were material conditions for fascism .
Shouldn't we havefought against fasscism and supress the fascists?
It s the same analogy and this is what it comes to .




Do you actually know any of there criticisms, other than rephrasing the capitalist remark Gorki made?


I forgot. Ya they want porn and they want a free-market economy.
They dislike Castro because he is too old.
Valid criticisms. Way to go.



Not all members of revleft are statists, so it isn't a surprising as you make out that people are speaking against the State repression happening in Cuba. For example in Ukraine settlements controlled by the Makhnovists, there was complete freedom of press.
Also, what petit bourgeois notions? You labelling an attitude as petit-bourgeois does not make it so.

Haha! Nice lie. The Makhnovists had a worse dictatorship than even a stalinist country.

But even if that was true(which is not), we come back to the basic question.

Shouldthere be a free pro-capitalist reactionary press after the revolution?
I don't think so.

Also anarchists are statists without even realizing.
An organized workers militia that fights capitalism/fascism is a form of state either you want it to be or not.
State=Bodies of armed men supressingone class over the other.

[nuisance]

Sorry but the band members claim otherwise.
Theyclaim to be pro-capitalist.
"PRR: We don’t call ourselves anarchists per se because we are not very well informed about what this philosophy means today and we’d like to design “our” anarchy for ourselves because after all this philosophy is very seductive."


And this is what it comes down to either you want it or not.
Who said that actual counter-revolutionaries shouldn't be fought? As it stands, this is a music band. Therefore they will only get listened to if people like the music, and to a lesser extra if people agree with them.

I never claimed that Cuba is a paradise but it is certainly better than countries with similar historyand georgraphy meaning Latin American coutris and that thanks tothe advanced socialized economy.
Therefore its citizens can't make music expressing there ideas?


And this punk band can be a real threat especialy if they have influence upon the outh.
Which I'm sure that there ban only increases. Also punk is a very niche market, so no I don't think they are much of a threat.

That being said supression of the reaction is necessary.
In Spain for example there were material conditions for fascism .
Shouldn't we havefought against fasscism and supress the fascists?
It s the same analogy and this is what it comes to.
That is completely different. Francos' fascists were an organised armed group, not a punk band that practice in a room sound proofed by egg cases.



Porno para RicardoI forgot. Ya they want porn and they want a free-market economy.
They dislike Castro because he is too old.
Valid criticisms. Way to go.
Just as I thought.
Read some of there lyrics instead of getting all your information from one video. If they were pro-capitalists ideologically, then why did the Cuban anarchists interview them?


Haha! Nice lie. The Makhnovists had a worse dictatorship than even a stalinist country.
No lie, and also they didn't try to implace a dictatorship.


But even if that was true(which is not), we come back to the basic question.
Erm....it is true.
"Free speech, press, and assembly were proclaimed, although Makhno would not countenance organizations that sought to impose political authority, and he accordingly dissolved the Bolshevik revolutionary committees, instructing their members to "take up some honest trade"."- Heather-Noel Schwartz


Shouldthere be a free pro-capitalist reactionary press after the revolution?
I don't think so.
If it's what people want.


Also anarchists are statists without even realizing.
An organized workers militia that fights capitalism/fascism is a form of state either you want it to be or not.
State=Bodies of armed men supressingone class over the other.
No that is not a State, a State is a centralised hierarchical structure with a monopoly on violence. Anarchists are federalised and non-hierarchical, and neither do we claim to have a monoploy on violence nor justify it as 'professional'. Good one.

[AutomaticMan]

Times like this make me wonder the quality of the revolutionaries on revleft.
Yes we are all up to revolution.
But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.


Care to elaborate on that one?

[freakazoid]

But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.

So believing in freedom and human rights is actually petit-bourgeois?
:confused:

[Vendetta]

But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.

I don't see what you're getting at here...apparently I'm petit-bourgeois

[communard resolution]

Reaction has to be supressed but of course we should allow valid and constructive criticism.

Who decides what criticism is valid? You?


This band doesn't make either valid not constructive criticism and in my opinion should be supressed.
I never, ever want to live in a country where punk kids are suppressed for being a little bit obnoxious. I already lived in a country like that, thank you very much.


I won't bother responding to anything said above as it is a waste of time.Is that so? Why do you bother posting here at all if you can't be arsed to engage with other people's points? Just so you can read your own entries?


But after that if we have all these petit-bourgeois notions and attitudes of freedom and human rights the reaction will crush us.I actually thought freedom and human rights were some of the most crucial goals of socialism?


You remind me of Morales who wants democracy and freedom and lets the fascists and bourgeois run around and sabotage the state, beating up genuine leftists and spreading their propaganda. And you remind me of someone who parrots a bunch of slogans he caught somewhere and is completely incapable of entertaining an independent train of thought.

In Poland, they had a special term for communists that were so true to the party line that even their comrades felt disgust at them. I can't think of it right now, but I'll ask my dad.

[communard resolution]

I never claimed that Cuba is a paradise but it is certainly better than countries with similar historyand georgraphy meaning Latin American coutris and that thanks tothe advanced socialized economy

I fully agree with that and I support Cuba. I do not, however, support their outdated mentality of crushing dissenters. I think they can do better than that.


And this punk band can be a real threat especialy if they have influence upon the outh.You should really hear yourself talk. This is just like "all that gangsta rap influences kids to commit criminal and violent acts. Ban it!"

This punk band have made certain experiences and they express them in song. Their ideas don't come out of nowhere. It's not like they woke up one morning and decided "we're gonna be counter-revolutionaries because we're nasty and awful people, and what could be more evil than to destroy our country?" If they are delinquents and dissenters, they are products of the society they live in. There must be reasons for that. And it's their right to voice these contradictions.


They dislike Castro because he is too old. Exactly! For the most part, its just basic punk shit, nothing to get hung about. You're sounding like Mary Whitehouse on a bad day.

[OI OI OI]

What do I mean by the petit-bourgeois notions of freedom and human rights?
Because there will be no freedom and no human rights for the reactionaries and counter-revolutionaries after the revolution.

All that which is a threat to the proletariat will be supressed by the workers state.

That's why I think those who whine about human rights are petit bourgeois.

END OF STORY

[Charles Xavier]

Cuba is at war with imperialist countries all around it trying to subvert it.

A war time you need to do whatever is needed to stop a fifth column from developing.

[OI OI OI]

A war time you need to do whatever is needed to stop a fifth column from developing.

Can you say that about the bureaucracy also ? :rolleyes:(that it is a fifth column)

[bootleg42]

My bid is that you will only think of human rights as "idealist shit talk" until your own human rights get violated.

Let them be "idiot counter-revolutionary punks" if that's what they want to be. They aren't involved in acts of sabotage. They aren't collecting funds for the counter-revolution. They are merely stating their opinion on something, and I can't help feeling that they're more entitled to that opinion than you, who is comfortably watching the events from a first-world country and sneers at "counter-revolutionaries" just because his organisation told him to "critically support Cuba"

So I suppose you critically support Cuba. So do I. But "critically" means "critically", not "in denial of any human rights violations" or "supportive of stone age communist sentiments".

No, we don't want that. The revolution in Cuba was a good and absolutely necessary thing to happen. I support their system of free healthcare, free education, guaranteed employment. Before the revolution, the majority of the population was living in shit.

But now it's 50 years after the revolution, and it turns out not everything Castro ever did was hunky-dory. The persecution of homosexuals was a terrible crime. But even that I'm willing to blame on traditional latin machismo, and I forgive Cuba because there has been a massive liberalization in the past years. Castro's daughter has initiated an anti-homophobia campaign, and sex change operations are now socially acceptable and free of charge. Even the old man himself has changed his mind on homosexuality. Bravo!

But whenever Cuban communists revert into prehistoric attitudes such as imprisoning people for voicing their opinion, I cannot support that because I know this is not the right path towards socialism and the emancipation of the common people.

Do you know that film "Reds" about John Reed? It's only a movie, but it features an awesome quote: "as a true revolutionary you cannot outlaw dissent because dissent IS the revolution."

And no, I don't think Cuba is just another (state) capitalist country. It's state socialist, which is fine since state socialism is the best we have been able to establish so far. I hope the tendency towards social liberalisation in Cuba will continue, while at the same time I hope Cuba will not sell out and open its gates to US imperialism. I don't think punishing punk rock singers for singing critical songs is the way to go.

Best post so far in this thread^^^^^^^^

Personally, I would punch this punk guy in the face but the state should not punish him just for his opinion. If he was smuggling money to hurt the people or involved with the far-right in Miami or something criminal to that extent then yea, arrest him. If it's just him talking shit then don't arrest him and let him say what he wants.

And of course this punk group wants capitalism. They probably would be rich in making music so they just want the chips for themselves and forget everyone else. Fuck them but still, the state is wrong here.

Also in support of Cuba, compare Cuba to say Bolivia or Colombia or Guatemala and you'll see that overall life is better there. Still that doesn't mean we don't criticize stuff when shit like this goes down.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Uh, guys...we're talking about a musician, here.

I repeat, we're talking about a fucking musician.

The government of Cuba is ideologically bankrupt. Only the most delusional of so-called "socialists" deny this. The fact that they put people on trial for singing against them is unbelievably pathetic.

[nuisance]

What do I mean by the petit-bourgeois notions of freedom and human rights?
Because there will be no freedom and no human rights for the reactionaries and counter-revolutionaries after the revolution.

All that which is a threat to the proletariat will be supressed by the workers state.

That's why I think those who whine about human rights are petit bourgeois.

END OF STORY
Exactly, one punk band is not a threat.
Oh! you Marxists and your buzz phrases!

[Os Cangaceiros]

:rolleyes:

Cuba is not a "worker's state".

[communard resolution]

Oh! you Marxists and your buzz phrases!

Oi! No generalisations, please. :hammersickle: :D

[Os Cangaceiros]

Oi! No generalisations, please. :hammersickle: :D

I think that most intelligent Marxists would recognize how stupid this action really is.

It's only tankies and the truly deranged who feel that any and all dissent should be crushed, lest the "counter-revolutionaries" take over...while at the same time supporting counter-revolutionaries who cloak themselves in red flags and spout pretty socialist slogans and jingoism. :rolleyes:

[communard resolution]

I think that most intelligent Marxists would recognize how stupid this action really is.

It's only tankies and the truly deranged who feel that any and all dissent should be crushed, lest the "counter-revolutionaries" take over...while at the same time supporting counter-revolutionaries who cloak themselves in red flags and spout pretty socialist slogans and jingoism. :rolleyes:

Agreed. But I had to intervene since many Marxists spoke out against these kind of sentiments in this very thread.

[Rex0230]

one punk rocker less :laugh: :thumbup:

[nuisance]

He got off anyway.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7589405.stm

[communard resolution]

He got off anyway.

... while international interest in the band has no doubt massively increased. If they haven't got an international record deal yet, it is certainly coming their way now. Another proof that censorship is counter-productive.

Or maybe it was all a publicity stunt orchestrated by the Cuban government to finally make some cash from their record industry? :)
If their records sell internationally and the money goes back to Cuba, then the band have helped the revolution after all...

In a sense, Cuba is a paradise. A paradise for punk rockers. In the capitalist sphere, punk offends no one anymore.

[Chapaev]

Rock music is a bourgeois, decadent genre that represents decay in capitalist countries. The deafening noise, monotonous tunes, and primitive, vulgar texts inculcuate nihilism and cynicism. Through their convulsive and trite music, the enemy tries to exploit youthful psychology in a revolutionary socialist society.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Rock music is a bourgeois, decadent genre that represents decay in capitalist countries. The deafening noise, monotonous tunes, and primitive, vulgar texts inculcuate nihilism and cynicism. Through their convulsive and trite music, the enemy tries to exploit youthful psychology in a revolutionary socialist society.

:lol:

[mykittyhasaboner]

Rock music is a bourgeois, decadent genre that represents decay in capitalist countries. The deafening noise, monotonous tunes, and primitive, vulgar texts inculcuate nihilism and cynicism. Through their convulsive and trite music, the enemy tries to exploit youthful psychology in a revolutionary socialist society.

what you mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNuIgVeqn8&feature=related

HAIL DECADENT CYNICISM!!!!!!

[Os Cangaceiros]

Rock music is the opiate of the bourgeoisie!

[communard resolution]

Rock music is a bourgeois, decadent genre that represents decay in capitalist countries. The deafening noise, monotonous tunes, and primitive, vulgar texts inculcuate nihilism and cynicism. Through their convulsive and trite music, the enemy tries to exploit youthful psychology in a revolutionary socialist society.

:laugh:

Velior, after so many bizarre posts authored by you it's now finally dawning on me that you're a joker. Aren't you? The purpose of your being here is to make people laugh, right?

[spice756]

The guy should go to jail he is a pro-capitalism and anti-revolution.It is one thing if there was a problem or complaint about Cuba or the government but that was not the case .

He is a pro-capitalism and anti-revolution.And the hurricanes and US does not help:( that is last thing they need is some pro-capitalism street punks.

[Zurdito]

punk rockers have a proud history of opposing dictatorships in Latin America, in Argentina the only ones who stayed and sang openly against the Proceso were Los Violadores. The struggle of this guy is the same. I would always support the right of the masses to express themselves artistically and to criticise the government, anyone who doesn't is not in a position to be talking about counter-revolution.

[Zurdito]

Let them be "idiot counter-revolutionary punks" if that's what they want to be. They aren't involved in acts of sabotage. They aren't collecting funds for the counter-revolution. They are merely stating their opinion on something, and I can't help feeling that they're more entitled to that opinion than you, who is comfortably watching the events from a first-world country and sneers at "counter-revolutionaries" just because his organisation told him to "critically support Cuba"

So I suppose you critically support Cuba. So do I. But "critically" means "critically", not "in denial of any human rights violations" or "supportive of stone age communist sentiments".

This

[spice756]

The struggle of this guy is the same. I would always support the right of the masses to express themselves artistically and to criticise the government, anyone who doesn't is not in a position to be talking about counter-revolution.


He did not criticise the government or Cuba but being pro-capitalism and anti-revolution.If he goes not like the revolution than he can go to some other country.

He had no right to do that ,especially do to the economic conditions in Cuba.

[nuisance]

He did not criticise the government or Cuba but being pro-capitalism and anti-revolution.If he goes not like the revolution than he can go to some other country.

He had no right to do that ,especially do to the economic conditions in Cuba.




Seriously mate, WTF?
He had no right? What right does that of a State have to suppress freedom of speech?
Also, he did criticise the government, incase you didn't know, that's the problem the Cuban government have with the band. He isn't ideologically pro-capitalist, and if he is it hasn't been proved. The video you seem to referring to states that he prefers capitalism to what they have now.
How about you more to Cuba if you don't like it where you are? Jeez, what a moronic thing to say, as it is a mimic of what right wingers say to lefties.

[communard resolution]

He did not criticise the government or Cuba but being pro-capitalism and anti-revolution.One thing I never liked about the socialist countries: no freedom of expression. If they're so sure their way is the correct one, why so sensitive about dissenters? And why can you be an openly socialist rock star in capitalist countries?


If he goes not like the revolution than he can go to some other country.Bollocks. If you don't like capitalism, why don't you go to Cuba? Same logic.


He had no right to do thatHe had a right to do that as much as you have a right to type your opinion on revleft.

[RHIZOMES]

While I oppose this guy getting arrested for criticizing the bureaucracy, I've really got to address some of the petit-bourgeoisie liberalism I'm seeing on display here.


What a miserable attitude. A revolution that violates human rights is no revolution at all, and makes the "vanguard" just as bad as the ruling class it seeks to replace.

What a liberal attitude you have there. The entire point of the dictatorship of the proletariat and seizing power of the state is for the former oppressed class to repress the former oppressing class. I couldn't give 2 shits about bourgeois human rights. I just happen to care slightly more about the workers' having decent healthcare, education, wages and having control of the means of production. It's called class struggle.


Someone simply voicing his opinion shouldn't be killed for it. I express no solidarity with people on the left who hold such authoritarian beliefs, because it's fucking pathetic to claim you care so much about the oppressed worker when you then turn around and murder someone because they disagree with you.

How is that fucking pathetic? If that someone is a class enemy then I call it commendable. :rolleyes:

[spice756]

That look at it this way a revolution is not fun .You have to take it by force and many people will die.The rich and capitalists will fight along with police and army.

Many people will die.Than when you take over there has to be a party who will supress captalists views and a party that is for the working class.

All captalists views and anti- revolution must be supress .In Cuba case they are still improving the economy.It is crucial that nothing interference with the development of the economy.

Cuba lacks industry they make most of theire money on sugar ,tobacco , medicine and tourists , selling it to other countries.

The problem in the USSR was too much on heavy industry and not enough on light industry .Cuba mistakes is they needed the USSR more than the USSR needed Cuba.

[spice756]

Bollocks. If you don't like capitalism, why don't you go to Cuba? Same logic.



Well look at this way :crying:what do you have to show? All you really got is Canada ,US and UK that have high standard of living and questionable Spain and France:(

Cuba way better of than South America ,Central America,Europe ,Asia and Africa.On less you don't have problem working 12 to 15 hours a day in China or India in a sweatshop , no sick pay or holidays.

Also many of those places do not have hospitals.

[communard resolution]

All captalists views and anti- revolution must be supress .Why? Why is it such an unbeareable thought that someone might hold views different to yours? Why can it not be enough to suppress pro-bourgeois activities?

In my view, everybody who wishes to punish others for views and thoughts deserves to be punished for theirs. So unless you drastically change your mind on this issue, I hope that one day you will be punished for your views by some fascist regime.

[communard resolution]

the petit-bourgeoisie liberalism I'm seeing on display here.

With all due respect, Arizona, I'm pretty tired of all the scare words thrown at people on revleft in place of a discussion. Call me a petty-bourgeois liberal all you want - I've been called a fascist, an trotgoat, a tankie, an anarchist, bourgeois, and whatnot. It doesn't work anymore. If you have an idea, explain it - don't just bombard people with labels designed to make them feel inadequate or somehow 'less revolutionary' than your immaculate self.


What a liberal attitude you have there.Oooh, in dangerous bold lettering... See above, but also: yeah, I'm pro 100% social liberalism (as opposed to economic liberalism), so it's not an insult.

[spice756]

Why? Why is it such an unbeareable thought that someone might hold views different to yours? Why can it not be enough to suppress pro-bourgeois activities?


To protect the revolution .We can't have captalists or reforms back to capitalism.

You don't like the way the goverment is doing some thing than talk about it but no pro-captalists and anti-revolution stuff.

[communard resolution]

You don't like the way the goverment is doing some thing than talk about it but no pro-captalists and anti-revolution stuff.

You haven't really answered my question. I asked: why can it not be limited to suppressing pro-capitalist activities? What do you find so dangerous about people having opinions?

And why are you allowed to express anti-capitalist, pro-revolution opinions in capitalist countries?

[Davie zepeda]

One .before it was bad to say communism back in 1920-1940's so your wrong .You want to know why they let us talk Because we have no power Intell we have power and threaten them then begin's the repression

[Wanted Man]

According to the band's website, Gorki Aguila was released, he only had to pay a fine, 600 pesos.
If it's true that he wants 'improved capitalism' (I didn't check Oi's link yet), it would be pretty funny. Capitalism puts money above profits. So if you want capitalism restored, start out by paying some money. :D

Seriously though, I think this is a bit petty, especially considering that he wasn't actually condemned to prison in the end (because of 'international pressure', I'm sure! :D). Although the mere fact that it's possible to be arrested and charged for this kind of petty shit is worrying. Let's learn from the past. When I envision socialist cultural expression, I don't think of thousands of children goosestepping and singing "The Party is Always Right" (http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2007/01/das_lied_der_pa.html).

But then again, it's also pathetic to single out Cuba over this. Something similar has happened in the Netherlands on two occasions over the last 12 months. First, there was the arrest of Philippino communist José Maria Sison. However, much more (right-wing) media uproar came when a far-right cartoonist was arrested. I don't feel much sympathy for him (he did his part in the 'culture war against Islam' by drawing cartoons of Mohammed boning Anne Frank in the ass), but it's still a disturbing tendency.

I'm sure similar examples exist in other countries. Where was the uproar on RevLeft when Sison got arrested, except by those people who already support Sison's politics anyway? Communists in capitalist countries should not jump at every opportunity to denounce mistakes of socialist countries, while quietly tolerating abuses by their own bourgeoisie.