First nervous post

[pox]

Hi all,

I'm a true left winger at heart in that I can think and express myself in right wing terms and really don't like the labelling anyway, and as a function of that approach I know the stigma that can be attached in environments like this through meme's that aren't balls out 'trained' left.

I want a genuine welcome and time to discuss my views, and I'm hard enough to take the critiscisms, but I've really agonised over what catagory to use for this post.

I have a suggestion for overhauling the benefits system, one which I can back up through fairly abvious statistics, but which is invariably branded eugenics by my more 'left' minded peers/comrades.

£200 a week, for life, to get yourself REVERSIBLY sterilised. Obviously, you lose the benefit if you want babies.

A bloodless revolution.

Discuss.

[Forward Union]

Why do we want to sterilise people again?

[Bud Struggle]

£200 a week, for life, to get yourself REVERSIBLY sterilised. Obviously, you lose the benefit if you want babies.

A bloodless revolution.

Discuss.

Revolution for whom? What's the end here, to eliminate the Proletariat? In America right now we give you a tax break if you have kids.

Welcome to the OI. :)

[pox]

I don't want to sterilise people, that's their choice, I want an opt in framework for pragmatic population control to match our responsibilities to the planets population and resource problems, and the statistical breeding perpensity of 'scallies'.

I want a solutions based discussion rather than an infighting talking shop, which is what I usually get with people of a given self imposed leftist label.

I want to be met pragmatically in the middle and given good real reasons why my hypothosis is wrong by people who don't resort to tried and tested group backslapping stereotyping at the first new idea which smells 'right wing'

[Forward Union]

I don't want to sterilise people, that's their choice, I want an opt in framework for pragmatic population control to match our responsibilities to the planets population and resource problems, and the statistical breeding perpensity of 'scallies'.

But population isn't a problem. We have the capacity to feed the entire population of the earth three times over. Populations can only grow to the extent society is capable of providing for them. The problem is the distribution of those necessities.

So why don't we just give people money?

[pox]

feeding people isn't the problem if your ratio of idiots/non-idiots works out.They outbreed us, making them rich doesn't help, and it's frankly not very viable really is it, just giving everyone £200 for life, is it.
I'm trying to deal with idiots. We need to not die on a rock in an egalitarian agri-haven, I believe there's merit to servicing the universe's need to self organise and have a real good go at spreading into space. That's my religion and not really up for discussion, but if intellectual wealth is to the concentrated for the good of mankind then there is going to have to be an incentivised brake on idiots who breed idiots. I'm proposing a life of luxury instead. Until they change their minds, at which point I have evidence of a mind. Constantly avoiding the 'us' and 'them' labels unless you're talking about capitalists and not other problem sections of society is couterproductive from a humanist standpoint.

[Wake Up]

Robin Hood is right. The Earth has the room and the resources to take care of many billions more people than we currently have.
The Problem is that capitalism has caused a small amount of the Earth to be well developed while neglecting the rest. The upshot of this is that people are attracted to the good areas where their will inevitably be overcrowding.

Capitalism cannot support the current population growth, so the answer is to get rid of capitalism and replace it with a communal system that provides an equal society allowing the population to be spread.

Sterilizing will help the minority at the expense of the rest of the world.

[Bud Struggle]

feeding people isn't the problem if your ratio of idiots/non-idiots works out.They outbreed us, making them rich doesn't help, and it's frankly not very viable really is it, just giving everyone £200 for life, is it.
I'm trying to deal with idiots.

Okey Dokey. :rolleyes:

[pox]

ok, so it's essentially a race for which revolution, the fair left wing one (of which, yes I am aware) or the unfair single law passed proposal I suggest. This in a climate where we have maybe three generations to act before we all essentially die on a rock. Tops.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Idiots versus non-idiots? I'm not so sure non-idiots exist. :D

[pox]

don't be coy, you know what I'm talking about. People who don't self motivate and self educate, and breed people who don't self educate and self motivate, who vote in representatives who perpetuate. Just using a simple word doesn't make me a simple mind.

[pox]

Idiots versus non-idiots? I'm not so sure non-idiots exist

because we're being statistically out-bred, quite right!

[Forward Union]

feeding people isn't the problem if your ratio of idiots/non-idiots works out.They outbreed us

But intelligence is learnt, not inherited. So giving people equal access to education would be the only solution to erradicating the uneducated.

A smart person can give birth to children that grow up stupid depending on cirucumstances. If you have reason to believe otherwise, please provide scientific evidence. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "stupid" gene and all humans have the capacity and natural drive to learn.

The idea of erradicating the population so that there's enough people to fit into the elitist education system we have now just seems like a bizare and inhumane idea. Why not just expand the education system?

[Killfacer]

surely the result will be really poor people getting sterelized and rich people will not.

[pox]

yes it's unfair, and some great minds would no doubt be lost, regretably that's why I'm posting in 'opposing ideologies'.

time's a ticking. can (let's say for sake of argument) "you lot" sort out the planet, before someone with an appallingly unfair idea like mine works within the confines of the current capitalist system and does your job for you. Lets call it two generations actually, we're pretty short on metals now.

i can't post links to images yet:

environment.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2605/26051202.jpg

[Killfacer]

Basically you are saying the government should bribe of the proles out of existence so only the rich live.

[pox]

yeah basically that's it. but in a good way.

This is where the track of lefty>hippie>scientist>humanist>future optimist ended up leading me... Damn I hate it, but no-one's coming up with the goods.

[Forward Union]

yes it's unfair, and some great minds would no doubt be lost, regretably that's why I'm posting in 'opposing ideologies'.

What are you talking about? no one needs to be steralised. Stupidity is not hereditary, otherwise progress would be impossible. People are "stupid" because they are denied access to proper education.

I want all of humanity to have acess to the finest literature and most advanced scientific journals. And be given a chance to learn from the day they are born.

No great minds need to be lost doing anything.


yeah basically that's it. but in a good way.

Oh... in a good way. Because for a while there I thought you meant in a bad way. Im glad we've cleared that up.

[Killfacer]

but in a good way? Thats a shit way. Forcing population control on the poor? How can you think thats good?

[pox]

I want all of humanity to have acess to the finest literature and most advanced scientific journals. And be given a chance to learn from the day they are born.


SO DO I, MY GOD SO DO I!

you got two generations. go!

[pox]

but in a good way? Thats a shit way. Forcing population control on the poor? How can you think thats good?

I'm not forcing anything on anyone.

[Forward Union]

SO DO I, MY GOD SO DO I!

you got two generations. go!


But you've not explained why anyone needs to be steralised. We just need to distrbute the wealth and resources according to need and ensure the next generation gets proper, equal education.

[pox]

oh yeah... sorry, of course, forgot where I was... If you can't find enough people to make that a reality (or my reality, I do agree), the what's your backstop solution.

[Killfacer]

Well you are indirectly forcing it upon them. What about when there is a recession? Many will have no choice but to get steralised, even if they do not want to?

This makes the stupid divide between the rich and the poor larger and stupider.

[eyedrop]

Have you been watching Idiocracy lately? (Hilarious movie BTW)

Are you assuming that the idiots/non-idiots ratio is because of genetics? When it's way more likely to be a result of social environment and social conditioning.


Edit; Bah, my point was already covered. Thats what I get for going away from the computer for 10 minutes.

[pox]

reversible. recessions are always about 4-5 years anyway... not the end of the world is it.

and at what point did I say it was genetic???? I said self perpetuating idiocy exists in a pragmatically resource poor environment (earth), and that a little quality control might not go amiss.

unless "you lot" can sort it we're fucked yes? last of the biosphere defended by men with guns until we die on a rock.

[Forward Union]

oh yeah... sorry, of course, forgot where I was... If you can't find enough people to make that a reality (or my reality, I do agree), the what's your backstop solution.

Can't find enough people to make what a reality? Can't find enough people to teach?

That's never been an issue in Human history. There will be occasional shortages of teachers, it just puts a temporary strain on the existing staff, or requires reorganisation. Getting supply teachers from other areas to step it. But with such an increase in technology it shouldn't be a problem.

Cuba had an apauling illiteracy rate when the 26th of July movement took over. Now it has practically erradicated illiteracy. It's easy. People love learning.

But you're right. If we can't provide enough teachers we should cull the people that don't have education.

I think the biggest issue is this, even if we accept your policy, it wouldn't actually work. Because Intelligence is not hereditry. Two generations later, intelligence will still be defined by the ability of society to provide education. You're not really offering anything except a smaller population, which will in turn mean less teachers.

All you are doing is forcing poor people to forfit their right to reproduce because they need £200. For no reason at all. I think it's inhumane and I'd be prepaired to fight that policy to the death.

[Killfacer]

Yes it is the end of the fucking world. Poor people unable to have kids because they are poor. That's vile, you need to re think this idea.

[pox]

This is really important stuff man, we owe it to the universe. If you don't have a flexible alternative in the unlikely event of the leftist revolution falling on its arse, then we ll really are very very dead. Prolls, capitalists, kings, queens. everyone.

[Led Zeppelin]

Pox you are an idiot.

Will you sterilize yourself?

[pox]

REVERSIBLE

it's an opt in benefit that drags people out of the gutter until they can afford to do a better job at parenting. Prevent children having babies.

read. the. words.

[pox]

Pox you are an idiot.

Will you sterilize yourself?



ah you guys, I hope you all find your magic army of ready made educators who're uncorruptible and can spread like widefire round the world, I really do... I hope people like you aren't in charge though Led Zep, 7000 posts on here resulting in "go sterilise yourself"!?

I'm out. x

[Forward Union]

This is really important stuff man, we owe it to the universe. If you don't have a flexible alternative in the unlikely event of the leftist revolution falling on its arse, then we ll really are very very dead. Prolls, capitalists, kings, queens. everyone.

I think you're talking nonsense.

What do we owe to the universe? Sterilising people? that will really make the universe happy wont it?

If we don't overthrow capitalism, how will steralising poor people fix the underlying issues? Population size isn't an issue, and Capitalism creates a gap in education and is the force that denies access to education for many. It's capitalism that allows people to be come "stupid", and it will continue to do so no matter how big or small the population becomes.

[eyedrop]

reversible. recessions are always about 4-5 years anyway... not the end of the world is it.

and at what point did I say it was genetic???? I said self perpetuating idiocy exists in a pragmatically resource poor environment (earth), and that a little quality control might not go amiss.

unless "you lot" can sort it we're fucked yes? last of the biosphere defended by men with guns until we die on a rock.

I had a questionmark after my comment on genetic if you didn't notice.

Wouldn't it be better to have a somewhat large population, which can support a large quantity of scientists who can speed up the technological train further?

[Bud Struggle]

REVERSIBLE

it's an opt in benefit that drags people out of the gutter until they can afford to do a better job at parenting.

read. the. words.

But we have that through birth control, don't we? There are billions of children not being concieved because of the pill, etc.

[Forward Union]

ah you guys... I'm out. x

Well, you failed to convince me. Bye

[Killfacer]

Personally i look forward to defending Bio-sphere B9 from the invading super mutants from the blasted plains of what used to be europe.

[Forward Union]

ah you guys, I hope you all find your magic army of ready made educators who're uncorruptible and can spread like widefire round the world, I really do... I hope people like you aren't in charge though Led Zep, 7000 posts on here resulting in "go sterilise yourself"!?

I'm out. x

Just because we haven't all jumped on your idea doesn't mean you should give up. Argue against my points. Beat me. Win me over. If you're right you should be able to.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Pox needs to take the head of his shower ram it up his arse and turn the pressure on full, because hes full of shit.

[pox]

I had a questionmark after my comment on genetic if you didn't notice.

Wouldn't it be better to have a somewhat large population, which can support a large quantity of scientists who can speed up the technological train further?

sorry, one last, yes, of course, you're right.

Can we do it?

It's regretably a race of two ideologies through the last of the resources, and my apologies for misinterpreting your tone, I was feeling a little bullied there.

I said 'discuss', I didn't quite expect a mobbing.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Alot of the overpopulation stuff is right wing crap used as a excuse to scapegoat minorities.

[pox]

Just because we haven't all jumped on your idea doesn't mean you should give up. Argue against my points. Beat me. Win me over. If you're right you should be able to.


hmmm, I'm not unconvinced by a fair society, I just HAVE to offer myself intellectual excercises in options because that's our responsibility. I've been engaged by a 'one mindset' murder squad.

Why would I want to beat a thing I agree with. You have to convince me as a scientist that
1: this can be done as you would have it done OR
2: you have options

I'm not talking about population NOW, I'm talking about planning for the worst.

[pox]

Pox needs to take the head of his shower ram it up his arse and turn the pressure on full, because hes full of shit.
oh yeah, and nice btw, real good.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

hmmm, I'm not unconvinced by a fair society, I just HAVE to offer myself intellectual excercises in options because that's our responsibility. I've been engaged by a 'one mindset' murder squad.

You could have posted "how do you propose to stop overpopulation?" not something along the lines of "hi guys im really nervous but what if we paid people to stop havin kids , itl be alright coz only stupid people wont have the money".

Really what the fuck did you think was going to happen if you said that on a communist message bored.

[pox]

pretty much that to be honest. The reaction of religious boreds(sic) everywhere. shame.

[Forward Union]

Why would I want to beat a thing I agree with. You have to convince me as a scientist that
1: this can be done as you would have it done OR
2: you have options

I'm not talking about population NOW, I'm talking about planning for the worst.

What sort of scenario are we discussing? A post-revolutionary society and the problems it may face? Or Crisis within capitalism, and what we should do as lefties?

If the first one, then give me examples of problems, and I'll explain how I think a communist society may deal with the issue.

If the second. The answer is Organise, Organise, Organse.

[Wake Up]

I think Pox is trying to say that unless the leftist revolution is successful we will end up with sterilization and the like.

If so then he is right as capitalism will find it harder and harder to sustain itself and so the rich will find ways to keep them rich.
However I suspect that the people won't stand for it once the truth behind our society becomes more obvious.

[pox]

The latter Robin, and if you FAIL to organise?

That won't happen though right? I mean, they give out the literature on a pasting table outside my flat, god knows I have faith in the organisational ability of the left. There's gotta be hundreds of people on this board, enough for one per major city at least..

I hate a society where children are encouraged to have children through benefits. I'd rather give them the tools to self educate (without distraction or mistakes) rather than impose order, then let them have children as educated adults. I can see a way for it to be done in the confines of the current system.

[Dust Bunnies]

...Is this person a troll?

I am against sterilization, what happens if we give it to 2/3 of the population and it turns out we can't reverse it? Sure we still have 1/3 but what happens if a natural disaster kills off part of that 1/3? We'd have to rebuild the population from scratch. There was a movie someone recommended to me because it was good, it was where there was 1 child bearing able woman left on earth, I am very afraid of that scenario.

[pox]

it's dependant on a technology that doesn't exist in the correct capacity yes.

am I a troll, no, I'm speaking from the heart with genuine concerns, but yes, because I chose to express them in an evironment where I'd be treated like a troll, and no because I did that to further analyse my argument.

oh, and yes, because I used the word sterilisation when I could have waxed lyrical about incentivising education until full adulthood instead, but let's face it, I meant sterilisation, I'm targetting the underclass, and I'm not particularly coy about it.

babies having babies... I mean! seriously!

[Dust Bunnies]

So I must of missed your answer before, so I will ask this, if this special sterilization thing your describing became real, would you volunteer to test it or later sterilize yourself?

[pox]

no, i don't need £200 a week, I'm 33, I debate my potential responsibility as a parent on a macro and micro level all the time. I'm not the target audience of this programme.

[Dust Bunnies]

Isn't that hypocritical? Supporting that we should get mass sterilizations but at the same time not going through it? Its like me saying that we need to hand out flyers for the revolution but I don't go do it.

[pox]

I don't follow that argument. It's an individuals choice. I would choose no.

[Dust Bunnies]

But yet you are preaching that if we don't we'll run out of stuff? We will run out eventually, but technology will allow us to replace it, like the current oil crisis, we can replace that with "greener" forms of energy.

[pox]

check the graph I linked on metal usage. There are issues they're too frightened to mention much in the press. We get off this planet soon or we revert to agri-culture. Period. 20% of the worlds power is used in grinding rock to extract metal. We have had the planets single iron age.
Getting away with it, fullfilling humanities potential will probably mean inequality in spades unless the left gets it together very very fast.

I don't LIKE this thinking, I am trapped by it.

[pox]

can I post images yet?

[Wake Up]

...Is this person a troll?

I am against sterilization, what happens if we give it to 2/3 of the population and it turns out we can't reverse it? Sure we still have 1/3 but what happens if a natural disaster kills off part of that 1/3? We'd have to rebuild the population from scratch. There was a movie someone recommended to me because it was good, it was where there was 1 child bearing able woman left on earth, I am very afraid of that scenario.


Children of Men :thumbup1:

[pox]

http://environment.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2605/26051202.jpg

[Dust Bunnies]

What is the source of where all this info is from?

[pox]

says on the bottom, University of Augsberg and Yale.

[Killfacer]

Oh shit, we are running out of Hafnium. Why the hell did you come on to this board and suggest that we can stop over population by paying poor people not to have kids. Thats morally reprehensable to the right wing, let alone as lefty types.

[pox]

sorry, I couldn't hear that through the bag on your head...

[Killfacer]

stop accusing other people of chatting shit then go and chat shit yourself you reactionary freak.

[pox]

left right left right, it's an obsession!

survive as a race, a rare and precious expression of things beyond all our arguments, in the most moral way possible is where I sit.

[pox]

I love the irony of "reactionary freak" on here. blimey.

[Killfacer]

Hardly ironic is it. You come on and suggest just about the shittest most right wing idea about population control bar ethnic cleansing and then expect a serious conversation.

[pox]

No I fucking didn't, you read your own interpretation into it.

[pox]

ps:
Forum for opposing ideologies and beliefs to be discussed; only forum where right-wingers, capitalists, preachers, primitivists, and other restricted members can post.

[Killfacer]

You earlier admitted that it would be poor people who would have to stop having kids, as they are the ones who need the money.

This is not fair, it just means rich people can have kids and many poor people cannot. This is fucking stupid. Your idea is shit, give it up, its crap. You seem like an intelligent guy, stop wasting developing this pile of shit and think of a new idea.

[pox]

I'm talking an overhaul to a flawed capitalist benefit system, with no victims, by default £200 a week for life ENABLES social migration, it's reversible, it's pro-choice, opt-in, opt-out. It's not a global panacea... why so extreme, why so aggressive?

[Dust Bunnies]

Well if we sterilized today we'd still run out of those things if the data on your years is right. We'd need to kill off people. Also, there is 1 child-child control in China, it isn't exactly loved there now is it?

[pox]

The people who were left would make better use of them. Horrible. Not found a way round it yet. This is a logic trap, not a treatise on the sum of my beliefs.

[Dust Bunnies]

The people who were left would make better use of them. Horrible. Not found a way round it yet. This is a logic trap, not a treatise on the sum of my beliefs.

So I'm confused, its OK for us to kill people to conserve the resources? Because if your sterilization plan goes through today, we will have ran out of resources before the sterilization could pay off.

[pox]

erm, no, I don't think.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

There are issues they're too frightened to mention much in the press..

Sorry any hint of a dooms day story and the press are over it.

Gloom and doom sells.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Children of Men :thumbup1:

Was i the only one to think that there must have being alot of incest to rebuild the human race?

[Dust Bunnies]

Was i the only one to think that there must have being alot of incest to rebuild the human race?

Not incest Comrade, Wincest. (Win+incest, dubbed by anonymous)

[freakazoid]

"wincest", :laugh:

[pox]

It's never OK to kill people, nor is population density my overriding concern, the mean intellectual ability of the population to successfully manage the last of the resources in a way that's at the top end of the moral bell curve is important. Children having huge families of children in the most polically forcefull, democratically steered, and heavily armed nations, creating a world where our ability to generate enough teachers and thinkers and engineers (as a proportion of population) falls short of our break point.

Everyone's inbred, though not sure why that's come up. We're all decended from the so called 'seven daughters of eve'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

there are higher concentrations of autistics and autistic savants in silicon valley and silicon fell because of close breeding...

[pox]

Sorry any hint of a dooms day story and the press are over it.

Gloom and doom sells.

panic stockpiling of metals by individuals don't work for the powers that be though.

[Dust Bunnies]

By the way all the computers will stop working on January 1, 2000. :rolleyes:

Comrade Joe was right, if there was this imminent danger there would have been a movie by Al Gore called, "The Inconvenient Truth 2" imagine the income from a sequel!

Al Gore and his power point presentation starring in

Inconvenient Truth TWO: Heavy Metal Problems

[pox]

oh you mean if there was a problem they'd tell us about it?

phew...

we'll probably be fine, but we can't afford to fall back to localised agriculture and start again. This is a given scientifically. We are the one shot the planet has. That (currently) unfortunately precludes equality for all. I'm not happy about it. I'm asking for help to formulate solutions. I tend to get abuse in talking shops.

[Dust Bunnies]

I'm not saying we can trust the media fully, but if this was true then CNN would have some special and Bill O'Reilly would put some spin on the issue in the "No Spin Zone". It would be a major seller, and since this is Capitalism, people would profit.

[pox]

http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=11010
http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/05/25/a-metal-scare-to-rival-the-oil-scare/
http://www.greendaily.com/2008/06/05/scrap-metal-worth-big-bucks-as-resources-run-out/
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080807/FOREIGN/629722880/1013/ART&Profile=1013

search google, it's an open secret.

ps, COME ON obama... important times indeed.

[Hit The North]

Just using a simple word doesn't make me a simple mind.
Must just be a coincidence then. :rolleyes:

Question is: will you take the money?

[pox]

didn't I answer that? If I decide not to have children then no I won't. This is an incentive aimed at kids, I can look after myself.

yum, just got a strawberry from our garden... nice.

[pox]

does no-one understand that without knowledge of the complete spectrum of ideas and potential solutions the left appears ignorant and isolated?

If we don't discuss these things maturely then the policymakers will. I only know one hippie who's got off his arse on weapons systems for instance. He and his just got DU rounds banned in the UK on money we donated as a group, and yet I meet people all the time who want a revolution but know NOTHING about weapons because they're pacifists. So much for knowledge is power, so much for agitate, organise, educate. Turns out it's left to pragmatic wankers like me as far as I can tell....

wish the left wing didn't look like an anarchists meeting all the bloody time.

why isn't the world a better place yadda yadda....

nobody asked for specifics on my idea, nobody asked for the boundaries to be defined, for the morality to be explained, nobody engaged to learn and develop. I had to trickle feed into a barrage of 'right wing bastard'

sorry, that's probably unfair, but I get blue about this sometimes.

[Dust Bunnies]

I went and did something else when you said the name Obama, I hate liers who gets peoples hopes up then fails them.

[Forward Union]

does no-one understand that without knowledge of the complete spectrum of ideas and potential solutions the left appears ignorant and isolated?

If we don't discuss these things maturely then the policymakers will.

I don't think the Lefts Isolated and ignorant because it wont discuss Steralising the working class so that the Ruling class can have all the metal. Firstly because it's barbaric, and secondly because it doesn't make sense on any level.

As I said, even if you killed off 50% of the population in camps, probability suggests you'd have the same percentage of Engineers/scientists etc. So it's really achieving nothing.

So I don't see why we'd do it.

[pox]

you have either not read what I have written or misinterpretted it. Prior to birth control there was a given ability of society to educate a proportion of its populace. Now, people who talk and think have a kid or two, people who don't give a toss have too many, and society hasn't got the capacity to implement real change in the time-frame I'm talking about. If we give children on sink estates a LOT of money so they can take the time to sort their lives out then they become net contributors, and have better quality children. If they want to stay on benefits then as Bill Hicks said we're not losing rocket scientists.

Since the advent of birth control your precious prols are statistically outweighing our voices and our ability to solve the problem. I have read somewhere in as little as three generations the mean IQ will totally prohibit escape from this. Breakdown of society. Nobody wins. I'm not closed minded about better solutions, I just haven't had one demonstrated to me. Am I comfortable with mine? not really? was I comfortable carrying a CND banner round a peace march extolling the virtues of trident replacement, not really. I have loads of these.

I don't mean people in the left are isolated and ignorant, I mean we/they can be written off as such my the majority because of A: infighting B: the whole left right wing thing, which is a distraction, and a lie.

Good idea, bad idea. that's how it should be couched.

[Forward Union]

you have either not read what I have written or misinterpretted it. Prior to birth control there was a given ability of society to educate a proportion of its populace. Now, people who talk and think have a kid or two, people who don't give a toss have too many, and society hasn't got the capacity to implement real change in the time-frame I'm talking about.

Why is there a time frame? As I said, we have more than enough resources to cater for as many children as people care to have. There is no time frame.


Since the advent of birth control your precious prols are statistically outweighing our voices

who is "our"? What are you talking about? It's not a problem that people are having lots of kids. It's really not. It's actually a good thing.



I have read somewhere in as little as three generations the mean IQ will totally prohibit escape from this.


Intelligence is not inherited!. How many times do I need to explain this basic scientific fact?

Anyone can be educated.

You're basing your entire policy on a scientific fallacy.


the whole left right wing thing, which is a distraction, and a lie.

So you're a third positionist?


Good idea, bad idea. that's how it should be couched.

That's an insane thing to say. Everyobe supports "good ideas" over "bad ideas" It's not a team sport. Right-wingers don't support right wing policies when they're blatently stupid, because that's their home team. Right and Left wing are ways of assesing peoples political beliefs based on what they consider to be good ideas. You can't contrast Right/left with good/bad.

[pox]

The timeframe is before the terrible awful leaders we have squander our resources and the resources of our children. Intelligence is not genetic, of course I know that, but finding enough good people to educate bad people is critical. I know what the proposed solutions are and I agree with them in principle. Can we do it? Is there time? Do we have another plan?
Just as a mind-game, not because I believe it, but because thinking only one road is ignorance.

Third position? no, my position. Challenge, debate, excite, inspire, trouble, postulate, engage on any front with any face required to get the job of solving the worlds problems done. Is that so bad?

[Forward Union]

The timeframe is before the terrible awful leaders we have squander our resources and the resources of our children. Intelligence is not genetic, of course I know that, but finding enough good people to educate bad people is.

But as I said we're not going to get more teachers by killing off people that need £200 a week. Most teachers are underpaid and will probably take that offer up.

What we need to do is ensure that education is universal. Your only objection to this is that it might not be possible. Can you explain why a policy of sterilisation is going to be any more possible? where will you get all that money from? What if that doesn't work? what's plan C? death camps? Not that I support death camps, but y'know. Just in case.


I know what the proposed solutions are and I agree with them in principle. Can we do it? Is there time? Do we have another plan?

Plan b is not to steralise half the fucking population because Capitalism didn't educate them properly. I can't explain how angry this makes me. I will try and be civil, but if we were having this convosation face to face, I'd punch your teeth out.

[pox]

no, you wouldn't because this wouldn't happen face to face. Pay teachers more, allow 14 year old girls in shit estates access to £200 a week of top flight equipment and education to become a vet or a teacher, then when they're grounded they reverse it, payment stops, and they become an amazing teacher with a broader world view, and have children.

I don't understand the specifics of your objection? I really want to.

I have a single remit of stopping babies having babies, through benefits. The WORDS have offended you.

[pox]

also, you wouldn't punch my teeth out, I've been like this for years and years, you'd have to be significantly faster than any left wing pacifist I've ever met.

[pox]

actually, you might live nearby, it could be like school & that!

solve the world with fist fights. Jesus christ on a crutch have you heard yourself?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

feeding people isn't the problem if your ratio of idiots/non-idiots works out.They outbreed us, making them rich doesn't help, and it's frankly not very viable really is it, just giving everyone £200 for life, is it.
I'm trying to deal with idiots. We need to not die on a rock in an egalitarian agri-haven, I believe there's merit to servicing the universe's need to self organise and have a real good go at spreading into space. That's my religion and not really up for discussion, but if intellectual wealth is to the concentrated for the good of mankind then there is going to have to be an incentivised brake on idiots who breed idiots. I'm proposing a life of luxury instead. Until they change their minds, at which point I have evidence of a mind. Constantly avoiding the 'us' and 'them' labels unless you're talking about capitalists and not other problem sections of society is couterproductive from a humanist standpoint.
Why do you want to wipe out idiots?

[Goose]

Hmmm. Well I make an educated choice not to have kids as, mainly, I bloody hate kids. If someone wants to chuck me £200 a week for the priveledge of continuing in the same manner then cool, so on purely self-serving basis, this sounds a damn fine idea.

[pox]

Why do you want to wipe out idiots?

errrrrm

duuuhhhhhh

[Qwerty Dvorak]

errrrrm

duuuhhhhhh
What? Is that or is that not what you want.

[pox]

I'm tired of repeating myself. I want better quality humans. I don't want to restrict choice or kill people. WhyWHYWHY do you lot always react the same...

massive credibility gap. your fault.

[pox]

I have to take 45minutes to watch obama's speech now, this is cyclic, so I'm done (I hope). Thanks all. Been a really wet predictable blast.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I'm tired of repeating myself.

Boo hoo.


I want better quality humans.


So your basically wanted a superior breed of humans (now who else wanted that?)


I don't want to restrict choice or kill people.

Working class people will take this on if they even become desperate for money.




WhyWHYWHY do you lot always react the same...

Because your idea a steaming piece of shite covred in poo source and served up on a plate of excrement. In other words its shit.





massive credibility gap. your fault.


Being a tosser. Your fault.

[freakazoid]

, and yet I meet people all the time who want a revolution but know NOTHING about weapons because they're pacifists.

Most here are not pacifists.


wish the left wing didn't look like an anarchists meeting all the bloody time.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I'm tired of repeating myself. I want better quality humans. I don't want to restrict choice or kill people. WhyWHYWHY do you lot always react the same...

massive credibility gap. your fault.
Okay, well I've just arrived on this thread so why don't you explain your position to me. It will give you an opportunity to be a little more clear about what you believe because up until now you haven't been very good at that.

So, you want better quality humans. What would you suggest we do to achieve this goal?

[pox]

So your basically wanted a superior breed of humans (now who else wanted that?)thread over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

fucking losers....

[#FF0000]

Time for actual discussion~

Let's start here.


I want better quality humans.


Do you think people are the way they are because of their own conscious choice, or are people bad because of the conditions they grow up in?

If the latter, then why can't you just get rid of capitalism and replace it with a more humane, more just, more sensible system, and thereby create more humane, more just, and more sensible people, overall?

And if the former, when did you make the choice to be an intelligent person?

[pox]

sorry, I'd really love to now you're actually asking the right questions, but for now it's all about the godwins law.

it's a fucking shame this never got to the point of solutions and questions and answers.

maybe another day.

I'm in two minds...

[Killfacer]

you want better quality humans? So this is not about population control? This is about making a a super species of non proles. You are a fucking idiot. You keep using terms like "us" and "the proles", you some super rich intellectual? Your an elitist arse hole. Die.

[pox]

Do you think people are the way they are because of their own conscious choice, or are people bad because of the conditions they grow up in?

a function of both


If the latter, then why can't you just get rid of capitalism and replace it with a more humane, more just, more sensible system, and thereby create more humane, more just, and more sensible people, overall?yeah, how? agreed. damn. let's sort it.


And if the former, when did you make the choice to be an intelligent person?this isn't a stark thing like that though.
I can remember when exactly I made my choice. My father said "get the best from the education offered to you because otherwise you'll be stuck working with people you hate for the rest of your life"

that was for me. It really stuck. My parents were able to instil wisdom because they had the age and heads behind them to do it. Babies having babies create a problematic society. Solve this with me. Quickly.

[pox]

you want better quality humans? So this is not about population control? This is about making a a super species of non proles. You are a fucking idiot. You keep using terms like "us" and "the proles", you some super rich intellectual? Your an elitist arse hole. Die.you tedious dick. I'm the first in my family ever to go to university where I'm now head of a research centre. My boss is a massive dyslexic who ran with gangs until he was 17 then woke up and became a world leader in his field.
My dad was a fireman and died as a result, my mum's still a secretary. I live in a shared flat with 40k debt and will pay it off as is my responsibility. We donate 3k a year to charity from the house, we are actively involved as a peer group in everything we can to make things better. WHAT. THE. FUCK. DO. YOU. KNOW. ABOUT. ME.

what's your problem with making things better? You just want status quo where you can preach discredited scripture from on high don't you?

I don't want a subset of humanity better, I want everyone better. Less irresponsible births doesn't create a divide. Is anyone even reading the words?

tit.

[pox]

can't believe I'm now drunk enough to defend myself using personal information. It stinks of bile in here. There's been a couple of glimmers of mind, but what the fuck? The worlds premier leftist forum? thanks guys... way to play...

[Bud Struggle]

tit.

First sensible thing you've said so far!

Now build on that. :)

(I'm drunk, too!)


this isn't a stark thing like that though.
I can remember when exactly I made my choice. My father said "get the best from the education offered to you because otherwise you'll be stuck working with people you hate for the rest of your life"

that was for me. It really stuck. My parents were able to instil wisdom because they had the age and heads behind them to do it. Babies having babies create a problematic society. Solve this with me. Quickly.

Damn that makes sense, too. I'm agreeing with you.

On reading it again--VASTLY agreeing with you.

[pox]

thankyou. ace. good to meet you.

[Bud Struggle]

thankyou. ace. good to meet you.

It's always best on threads like there to just make witty comments--but sometimes you get suckered in to reading the posts! DAMN IT ALL.

My Life: Muchly the poor immigrant's son, M+P said GO TO COLLEGE--I did, and they were right.

And since we're good Catholics we never would have taken your 200--it would have worked out for me no matter what. ;)

[pox]

yeah, fair enough, neither would my parents. Only the most unsuitable for breeding would.. hopefully... sledgehammer to crack a nut, but the nut can be uncracked...

the key thing with this for me is it's a single bit of legislation, which you COULD get through... everything else is so hard that it's been talked to death for ever... it's not eugenics, I'm not hitler, it gets kids out of trouble... current legislation rewards fuckups, then persecutes the proginy of that fuckup...

horrible...

the worst thing is it's the 'best' of our cultures minds who'd block it, because it's 'unfair', for unspecified reasons... when will we wake up...?

[Jazzratt]

I've worked it out. You want to give 200 quid a week to idiots that don't have kids because you're an insane cretin and no one likes you.


WHAT. THE. FUCK. DO. YOU. KNOW. ABOUT. ME.

You're an annoying little drunken fuck.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

yeah, fair enough, neither would my parents. Only the most unsuitable for breeding would.. hopefully... sledgehammer to crack a nut, but the nut can be uncracked...


Go die in a fire.

[pox]

hope to fuck you guys get into power...

..no really...

you're all ace...

sorry for rattling your little 8000 strong cage of bitter loser social margin. good luck kids.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

hope to fuck you guys get into power...

..no really...

you're all ace...

sorry for rattling your little 8000 strong cage of bitter loser social margin. good luck kids.

Sod off.

[Winter]

Sorry man, it seems you botched by posting this. I would probably leave now since it's pretty much unanimous that you want to form the perfect, obedient human and eliminate the working class. That sounds way to nazi like to us ( and to anybody else with a brain ).

[Qwerty Dvorak]

hope to fuck you guys get into power...

..no really...

you're all ace...

sorry for rattling your little 8000 strong cage of bitter loser social margin. good luck kids.
How come you never addressed my question...

[pox]

So, you want better quality humans. What would you suggest we do to achieve this goal?

I really don't know. I came here for answers. I would say make the hard choice to NOT be fair. I hate that. Fix me. Surely that was implicit in the dialogue.

sorry, keep forgetting most of you are young. live long and prosper (in a fair and equal way)

end.of.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

nvm

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

In b4 thread gets trashed.

[Bud Struggle]

After 7 pages and you guys don't get this is Herr Eugenics Master-Racer posting at you.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I really don't know. I came here for answers. I would say make the hard choice to NOT be fair. I hate that. Fix me. Surely that was implicit in the dialogue.

sorry, keep forgetting most of you are young. live long and prosper (in a fair and equal way)

end.of.
What? You're coming here to promote a particular goal. And you want us to tell you how to achieve it? Surely the way rational debate goes is that you convince us why we should try to achieve your goal, and an important part of that is showing us how it could work.

[pox]

nah, i don't have your answers. just wanted to see the state of you.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

After 7 pages and you guys don't get this is Herr Eugenics Master-Racer posting at you.

I think hes jus a troll or idiot.

[Bud Struggle]

Hey, all I can say is that I'm one of those people that you would have payed my parents L200 not to have conceived.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

nah, i don't have your answers. just wanted to see the state of you.
So you're a troll?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I suspect hes from UK debate.

[pox]

FUCK ME I WAS DONE! AND YOU'RE INFIGHTING AGAIN!

left.

as in left behind.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Ban him, he's boring.

[Bud Struggle]

FUCK ME I WAS DONE! AND YOU'RE INFIGHTING AGAIN!

left.

as in left behind.

I can't understand--why waste L200 when a a touch of Zyklon B would do the job so much better? A backhoe, a little quicklime. Who's to know?

Idiots all gone--a better world for you and me! :thumbup:

[pox]

Ban him, he's boring.

nazi

[Jazzratt]

Shut up and fuck off.