The world's most toxic value system

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The Thar mentality (http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM)

I came across this recently and found it very interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of it at the moment, but a lot of what it says seems to make sense.

What do you think?

[Dystisis]

The writer seems to put a given society's attitude towards "honor" as a precursor for how that society fares economically (or scientifically as he says). In general I doubt this is true, it is probably more the other way around.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The writer seems to put a given society's attitude towards "honor" as a precursor for how that society fares economically (or scientifically as he says). In general I doubt this is true, it is probably more the other way around.

That's backwards - the societies talked about had a majority thar mentality well before the advent of modern capitalism.

[Dean]

It's interesting, but the writer is extremely elitist and condescending - talking about how he is "distinctly rational" and others are "thinking with their gonads." This in turn clouds his analysis of the societies he discusses.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It's interesting, but the writer is extremely elitist and condescending - talking about how he is "distinctly rational" and others are "thinking with their gonads." This in turn clouds his analysis of the societies he discusses.

It's one thing to say his attitude clouds his analysis, it's quite another to demonstrate it.

The thar mentality as described is certainly disgusting. How could one have anything but contempt for it and those who support it?

[Dean]

It's one thing to say his attitude clouds his analysis, it's quite another to demonstrate it.

The thar mentality as described is certainly disgusting. How could one have anything but contempt for it and those who support it?

Only those who think with their gonads talk of contempt and disgust when they recognize social problems, rather than attempting to understand and solve them.

See the problem? As communists, it should be typical to understand the failings of society as conditional, and as such we ought to look for productive solutions, not vitriol and animosity.

[Lynx]

Thar represents merit.
For example:
a) individual merit versus group merit
b) merit of work versus merit of behavior

If the advancement of society is dependent upon productivity, the above example becomes:
a) the productivity of individuals vs. the productivity of favored groups
b) the importance of work vs. the importance of proscribed social behavior

A Thar society would be one where unproductive organization and behavior are rewarded. Western society may be more productive, but it is not ideal. No society is ideal.

[al8]

I think the article is written from a confused liberal possition. We do not need a new umbrella word for simplistic and immature forms of vindictiveness, or for male-domination, and various other deliterious attidudes harmful to progress. Because we already have a word for that; Backwardness!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Only those who think with their gonads talk of contempt and disgust when they recognize social problems, rather than attempting to understand and solve them.

See the problem? As communists, it should be typical to understand the failings of society as conditional, and as such we ought to look for productive solutions, not vitriol and animosity.

You're criticising the page for not doing something which it never claimed to do in the first place: fix the problem.

Personally, I think one of the best weapons against the Thar mentality is education, especially of women. Thar mentalities thrive where ignorance abounds.


Thar represents merit.
For example:
a) individual merit versus group merit
b) merit of work versus merit of behavior

No it doesn't. It's obvious you didn't read the page.


The thar mentality can be said to include these features. They vary in degree from person to person and place to place but if we find all or most of them in a society we can justly apply the label thar.


Extreme importance of personal status and sensitivity to insult
Acceptance of personal revenge including retaliatory killing
Obsessive male dominance
Paranoia over female sexual infidelity
Primacy of family rights over individual rights



Stop trying to twist a cultural issue into a purely economic one.


A Thar society would be one where unproductive organization and behavior are rewarded.No, a Thar society has different ideas about what is productive versus what is unproductive. This might not line up exactly with what is objectively productive/unproductive, but Thar societies are not alone in this - consider the Western obsession with professional sports.


Western society may be more productive, but it is not ideal. No society is ideal.I don't believe that anyone is claiming that any society is "ideal". But it's really fashionable these days to accuse those who criticise non-Western cultures of "racism" or label them (ameri/euro)-centrist. This leads to the false conclusion that all cultures are "equally valid". This postmodern conceit must be countered, in my opinion.


I think the article is written from a confused liberal possition. We do not need a new umbrella word for simplistic and immature forms of vindictiveness, or for male-domination, and various other deliterious attidudes harmful to progress. Because we already have a word for that; Backwardness!

Backwardness comes in many forms and has different causes as well as being sustained by different phenomenon. I think it's important to identify the different forms of "backwardness" in order to facilitate it's correction.

[Dean]

You're criticising the page for not doing something which it never claimed to do in the first place: fix the problem.

Personally, I think one of the best weapons against the Thar mentality is education, especially of women. Thar mentalities thrive where ignorance abounds.

Not exactly. I am criticising it for lacking a productive response to the issue at hand; it is more interested in an alienated attack on people for having a "Thar" mentality then in analytically criticizing the tendency. Any analysis ultimately fails when it becomes vitriolic and disinterested in the subject, and I therefore take issue with the orientation of the article both from a scientific and leftist standpoint.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, I thought it was a pretty good article--and pretty well portrays how some societies represent themselves to the world. Dean is right, it's a judgmental piece--but it does accurately describe why it is difficult for Western man to converse with such cultures. Our culture, for all our disagreements, shares a common value system and we often get confused when confronted by cultures like the ones in the article.

[Lynx]

Stop trying to twist a cultural issue into a purely economic one.
What cultural issue? These are reactionary behaviors. If you don't think they deserve to be analyzed in a socio-economic context, then post the article to StormFront. They will confirm that it is cultural and take it from there.



No, a Thar society has different ideas about what is productive versus what is unproductive. This might not line up exactly with what is objectively productive/unproductive, but Thar societies are not alone in this - consider the Western obsession with professional sports.
There are different criteria one can use, but based on economic or technological progress, they are unproductive and/or lack innovation. Even a member of a Thar society might arrive at that conclusion if you asked them.


I don't believe that anyone is claiming that any society is "ideal". But it's really fashionable these days to accuse those who criticise non-Western cultures of "racism" or label them (ameri/euro)-centrist. This leads to the false conclusion that all cultures are "equally valid". This postmodern conceit must be countered, in my opinion.
Well, you're not doing a very good job of it here. Short of a proper materialist analysis, what would you have us say?

[Dean]

haha, look at this bit of filth:


Thar drives much of the world's terrorism, and in the short term the fight against terrorism is frustrating. But in the long term Western society is doing precisely what terrifies thar cultures the most. We are generating forces that foster individual autonomy and especially demands by women for more equality. These forces attack the very root of thar: the whole fabric of status, hierarchy and authority that creates the reward system in thar cultures.

Yes, yes, the West will save those savages from themselves!

[Demogorgon]

Stop trying to twist a cultural issue into a purely economic one.

Oh look, more opposition to materialism from Noxion in order to try and save his neo-Conservative and First-World chauvenist position. Who'd have thunk it?

[al8]

Backwardness comes in many forms and has different causes as well as being sustained by different phenomenon. I think it's important to identify the different forms of "backwardness" in order to facilitate it's correction.

Yes you are correct, I don't dissagree with that in principle, I just don't think the author pulls it off all that well.

Some points are correct but formulated within a liberal capitalist perspective. And some of those correct points are moot. Like the cautioning to translators not to translate literally different honour concepts, but instead do it expressively, but good translators already know this, it's a somewhat basic thing you learn abou translating. So this should already be taken into account. And he further suggests if a word doesn't fit that one use the foreign one. I dissagree, maybe there is a longer frase, familial blood-honor fx., that could work. And he wants to use the thar concept more widely than just about the arabspeaking areas. I think that is asking for confusion.

[Jazzratt]

Oh look, more opposition to materialism from Noxion in order to try and save his neo-Conservative and First-World chauvenist position. Who'd have thunk it?

Yeah, writing a halfway decent critique is sooo difficult, let's just snipe away and pretend we've won.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Not exactly. I am criticising it for lacking a productive response to the issue at hand; it is more interested in an alienated attack on people for having a "Thar" mentality then in analytically criticizing the tendency. Any analysis ultimately fails when it becomes vitriolic and disinterested in the subject, and I therefore take issue with the orientation of the article both from a scientific and leftist standpoint.

Your objection seems to boil down to "he's being nasty and therefore his arguments are suspect" without actually demonstrating such, ie quoting a paragraph and pointing out the error(s).

Scientists can and have been incredibly vitriolic, without detracting from the actual science - in fact, the Big Bang got it's name from one of it's biggest critics. The insertion of the word "leftist" on your part is a cheap shot.


What cultural issue? These are reactionary behaviors.

And how does one acquire those behaviours? From one's culture.


If you don't think they deserve to be analyzed in a socio-economic context, then post the article to StormFront. They will confirm that it is cultural and take it from there.

Because only Nazis talk about culture. :rolleyes: Are you seriously that lacking in cogent arguments that you have to call a Godwin on this thread?


There are different criteria one can use, but based on economic or technological progress, they are unproductive and/or lack innovation.

Yes, it can be argued that Thar societies are less productive/innovative by any objective measure, which I agree with. What's your point? My issue with Thar isn't productivity.


Well, you're not doing a very good job of it here. Short of a proper materialist analysis, what would you have us say?

The "proper materialist analysis" so far seems to consist of mudslinging and name-calling, with the honourable exception of yourself, it seems. At least I'm actually trying to have a productive discussion instead of trying to score as many "left cred" points as possible.


Yes, yes, the West will save those savages from themselves!

More dishonesty. I don't recall reading the bit where he says we should invade and "change their ways", perhaps you could do me the favour of quoting the relevant paragraph?

Western culture is corroding the Thar mentality to a degree, but it's mainly a consequence of the widespread dissemination of Western culture and cultural artefacts. It could be argued that imperialism actually retards this process, as Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a more "liberal" place than Iraq under the Islamist quislings.


Oh look, more opposition to materialism from Noxion in order to try and save his neo-Conservative and First-World chauvenist position. Who'd have thunk it?

I'm actually surprised it took this long for someone to accuse me of "chauvinism".

If you really think I'm a neo-Conservative, you'd be starting a thread in the CC to have me removed, as it stands for "Commie Club" not "Conservative Club". The fact that you haven't indicates you're either a complete chickenshit or you're blowing smoke out your ass.


Some points are correct but formulated within a liberal capitalist perspective.

This sentence "sounds good" but the semantic content is zero. In other words, it doesn't actually tell me where the author went wrong, if he did, but that you don't agree with his politics. To be blunt, no shit Sherlock.


And he further suggests if a word doesn't fit that one use the foreign one. I dissagree, maybe there is a longer frase, familial blood-honor fx.,

Needlessly excessive verbiage has the astonishing capability to induce an incredible countenance of vexation. :p Why use a longer set of English words when a more suitable foreign word with no cultural baggage in the English-speaking world will do the job?


And he wants to use the thar concept more widely than just about the arabspeaking areas. I think that is asking for confusion.

I don't see how. Just note that it applies to a mentality that is not specific to the Arab world when introducing the word to those who are unfamiliar with it should do the trick.

[Dean]

Your objection seems to boil down to "he's being nasty and therefore his arguments are suspect" without actually demonstrating such, ie quoting a paragraph and pointing out the error(s).

Scientists can and have been incredibly vitriolic, without detracting from the actual science - in fact, the Big Bang got it's name from one of it's biggest critics. The insertion of the word "leftist" on your part is a cheap shot.



And how does one acquire those behaviours? From one's culture.



Because only Nazis talk about culture. :rolleyes: Are you seriously that lacking in cogent arguments that you have to call a Godwin on this thread?



Yes, it can be argued that Thar societies are less productive/innovative by any objective measure, which I agree with. What's your point? My issue with Thar isn't productivity.



The "proper materialist analysis" so far seems to consist of mudslinging and name-calling, with the honourable exception of yourself, it seems. At least I'm actually trying to have a productive discussion instead of trying to score as many "left cred" points as possible.



More dishonesty. I don't recall reading the bit where he says we should invade and "change their ways", perhaps you could do me the favour of quoting the relevant paragraph?

Western culture is corroding the Thar mentality to a degree, but it's mainly a consequence of the widespread dissemination of Western culture and cultural artefacts. It could be argued that imperialism actually retards this process, as Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a more "liberal" place than Iraq under the Islamist quislings.

No, western society is doing "exactly what terrifies Thar":


We are generating forces that foster individual autonomy and especially demands by women for more equality. These forces attack the very root of thar: the whole fabric of status, hierarchy and authority that creates the reward system in thar cultures.

How can you use such terminology to describe the west's interaction with middle eastern nations without talkign abotu imperialism? Seem's like that is exactly what is being referred to. But since you have some unknown knowledge, please enlighten us. What harmless argument is so well hidden here within this chauvinist trash?


Your objection seems to boil down to "he's being nasty and therefore his arguments are suspect" without actually demonstrating such, ie quoting a paragraph and pointing out the error(s).

Scientists can and have been incredibly vitriolic, without detracting from the actual science - in fact, the Big Bang got it's name from one of it's biggest critics. The insertion of the word "leftist" on your part is a cheap shot.
No, I'm pointing out that an argument about a cultural tendency which is filled with elitist, euro-centric attitudes - including the "white man's burden" - are distinctly lacking in either a rational or productive analysis of the subject. The fact that you use the term "contempt" to refer to those who have such an irrational approach exemplifies the elitist perspective you hold about those you consider irrational, ignorant, backwards, whatever.

It is further revealing that this "most Toxic viewpoint" in fact has less collective political and military power than Colonial, Zionist and other nationalist tendencies.


I see this as a real danger even if - especially if - we eventually succeed in meeting everyone's needs. In a society where everyone is continually satisfied, the growth of an egocentric world-view is all but guaranteed. Just look at how easily things that were wild utopian fantasies or fabulous luxuries a few decades ago have become "rights" in contemporary American society. In a society where instant gratification is the norm, any obstruction of the will, however trivial, will be seen as a direct personal assault. The more routine gratification becomes, the less able to cope with interruptions people will become. I think we see a harbinger of this in the rise in road rage.
Right, so post scarcity is genetic for domination of man over others. Seems like people need to fight for basic goods.


But the reality is that much of the world's overpopulation is driven by the thar mentality. In thar societies manhood is measured more or less directly by the ability to father children. I confess I have always found this attitude a bit puzzling - gerbils can mate at the age of 90 days, so procreation isn't exactly a high-order skill. And the attitude is not just limited to men. When women in some African societies were asked if they would limit the sizes of their families, they said first of all they would not go against their husbands' wishes, and second they would not want to face the ridicule of other women. This attitude is not limited to foreign societies. I know of a young black woman with two children who was asked by her family "you're 26 and only have two children? What's wrong with you?"

Here you have a reference to the race of an individual where none is necessary or called for. Also, there is no clear link between birthrate and "Thar" mentality here. But there is a seemingly clever attack on the "manhood" archetye.


Nothing better illustrates the thar mentality better than the fury directed by Islamic militants against Danish and Norwegian cartoons of Mohammed. Sacrilegious art in other cultures can offend and get people angry but the lunatic response of radical Islamists is in a class by itself. It's the shrieking, out of control petulance of a three-year old throwing a tantrum. People infected with this attitude will be utterly incapable of recognizing wrongdoing by their own society, utterly incapable of taking criticism or recognizing the need for correction.
Yes, the logical response to an admittedly racist cartoon against a deeply held spiritual stance is a "petulent, shrieking tantrum" which only comes from "radical islamists." Nevermind that the cartoons weren't just sacreligious or against some minor religious code - they were distinctly and deliberately anti-muslim and anti-immigrant.

This article is stunningly culturalist, it shows a clear alieantion from facts ranging from the destructiveness of different ideologies to the more rudimentary information on its primary topics. It has an obsession with relating ethnicity and religious tendency with cultural destructiveness, where no clear link has been established (though it could be in many cases, the auther simply never bothers to really clean up his research). What seems most offensive is the tendency to vindicate the exact same kind of patriarchal attitude in western society, simly because "there is more individualism" in the west. Not only does the author ignore that familial ties are indeed relevent in the west, but he adds a classy, anti-collectivist twist to his rhetoric, as well as some vague references to "entitles utopianism," both probably references to socialism.

Face it, Noxion. You picked up a real piece of chauvinist trash, and it probably only appeals to you because it is anti-Muslim. Unfortunately, it totally fails at analyzing Islam, it offers a view so extremely detached and elitist that it is ridiculous, and it is marred with ethnic and culturalist prejudice which is reminescent of neo-nazi rhetoric of the "poisonousness" of a foreign culture.

The "criticism" of western society only seems to hope that we don't take on similar attributes, it seems like thousands of years of patriarchy aren't enough for the author. Very ironic that a person speaking of the inability of cultures to self-criticise fails to see the hierarchies promoted by sexism as much of a concern, and in the latter case as a cause celebre because "individualism innovates technology."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How can you use such terminology to describe the west's interaction with middle eastern nations without talkign abotu imperialism?

Because imperialism is not the only way the West interacts with the Middle East.


But since you have some unknown knowledge, please enlighten us. What harmless argument is so well hidden here within this chauvinist trash?

If you can't see it, then I can't help you. There's none so blind as those that refuse to see.


No, I'm pointing out that an argument about a cultural tendency which is filled with elitist, euro-centric attitudes - including the "white man's burden" - are distinctly lacking in either a rational or productive analysis of the subject. The fact that you use the term "contempt" to refer to those who have such an irrational approach exemplifies the elitist perspective you hold about those you consider irrational, ignorant, backwards, whatever.

Oh no, I'm "elitist"! Heaven forbid that someone recognises that an educated person is less likely than an ignorant person to beat their wife, their kids, or perform any other despicable act that the Thar mentality encourages!


It is further revealing that this "most Toxic viewpoint" in fact has less collective political and military power than Colonial, Zionist and other nationalist tendencies.

So Iran is "powerless"? South Africa is "powerless"? India is "powerless"? "Saudi" Arabia is "powerless"? The fact that imperialists and Zionists have greater power than them does not obviate the poisonous attitude of Thar.


Right, so post scarcity is genetic for domination of man over others. Seems like people need to fight for basic goods.

How does genetics come into it? Whatever happened to "being determines consciousness"? If people are used to having their desires quickly fulfilled, then it can hardly be surprising that such people will become restive and/or irritated (to say the least) when that is suddenly no longer the case.


Here you have a reference to the race of an individual where none is necessary or called for. Also, there is no clear link between birthrate and "Thar" mentality here. But there is a seemingly clever attack on the "manhood" archetye.

It's called an example, genius. Sub-saharan Africa is not the only place where Thar mentalities encourage large families.


Yes, the logical response to an admittedly racist cartoon against a deeply held spiritual stance is a "petulent, shrieking tantrum" which only comes from "radical islamists." Nevermind that the cartoons weren't just sacreligious or against some minor religious code - they were distinctly and deliberately anti-muslim and anti-immigrant.

Is that why the protests were all about the "insult" to Mohammed, with not a squeak about the real issues that face Muslims in the West?


This article is stunningly culturalist, it shows a clear alieantion from facts ranging from the destructiveness of different ideologies to the more rudimentary information on its primary topics.

"Culturalist" is a new one on me, I'm afraid. Is there some sort "Pompous Lefty Dictionary" that I am unaware of?

Some cultures are genuinely better than others - how anyone can dispute this is a mystery to me. European culture, for the most part, discourages or frowns upon parents beating their children, to the point where legal sanctions can be seriously proposed for parents that do beat their children.


It has an obsession with relating ethnicity and religious tendency with cultural destructiveness, where no clear link has been established (though it could be in many cases, the auther simply never bothers to really clean up his research).

The Thar mentality crosses ethnic/racial and religious boundaries. You are wrong.


What seems most offensive is the tendency to vindicate the exact same kind of patriarchal attitude in western society, simly because "there is more individualism" in the west.

If he does do that, then I disagree. Regardless of whether or not there is "more individualism" in the West, patriarchal attitudes are inexcusable anywhere. But people in the West really should know better.


Not only does the author ignore that familial ties are indeed relevent in the west, but he adds a classy, anti-collectivist twist to his rhetoric, as well as some vague references to "entitles utopianism," both probably references to socialism.

Family ties are indeed relevant in the West, but not to the level they are in Thar cultures. I don't feel that his views on collectivism have any relevance to the main thrust of the article.


Face it, Noxion. You picked up a real piece of chauvinist trash, and it probably only appeals to you because it is anti-Muslim. Unfortunately, it totally fails at analyzing Islam, it offers a view so extremely detached and elitist that it is ridiculous, and it is marred with ethnic and culturalist prejudice which is reminescent of neo-nazi rhetoric of the "poisonousness" of a foreign culture.

Another cheap shot. Dropping the word "neo-nazi" into your posts does not bolster your argument.


The "criticism" of western society only seems to hope that we don't take on similar attributes, it seems like thousands of years of patriarchy aren't enough for the author. Very ironic that a person speaking of the inability of cultures to self-criticise fails to see the hierarchies promoted by sexism as much of a concern, and in the latter case as a cause celebre because "individualism innovates technology."

There is much that Western society can be criticised for, including sexism, but I feel it is of a different character than the sexism that Thar encourages.

[Demogorgon]

Y

If you really think I'm a neo-Conservative, you'd be starting a thread in the CC to have me removed, as it stands for "Commie Club" not "Conservative Club". The fact that you haven't indicates you're either a complete chickenshit or you're blowing smoke out your ass.

Oh believe me I would be, if you and your Libertarian friends hadn't had me thrown out. If I ever get back in, the first thread I will be making will be one asking for your restriction.

Of course hopefully you will already have been restricted by then.

[Lynx]

And how does one acquire those behaviours? From one's culture.

Because only Nazis talk about culture. :rolleyes: Are you seriously that lacking in cogent arguments that you have to call a Godwin on this thread?
Nazi's talk about culture and then go on to talk about race. You can't seriously expect the members of this forum to accept an analysis that attributes a series of claims to 'culture'. More questions need to be asked.
For example:
Which regions are we talking about?
Do they share a common history?
Do they share common Thar mentalities?
Are there correlations between these regions, their histories, and their present-day mentalities?


Yes, it can be argued that Thar societies are less productive/innovative by any objective measure, which I agree with. What's your point? My issue with Thar isn't productivity.
The author appeared to draw a link between them and it's the only idea from the article I believe is salvageable.