I Enlist Tomorrow!!!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

[spartan]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.
Don't get sunk during the revolution.:p

Anyway what made you want to join the navy?

Patriotism or the money?

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.


And why would you want to do that?

[freakazoid]

Have you already gone to MEPs and signed in? You haven't done your physical yet? Have fun at the underwear Olympics lol, :)

[Dros]

It's a good thing we restricted you.

Enjoy backing up an imperialist, mass murdering country by killing people...

[freakazoid]

It's a good thing we restricted you.Yeah, sure is. Because by restricting him you.... did absolutely nothing.



Enjoy backing up an imperialist, mass murdering country by killing people..How exactly is he killing people by joining the Navy?

[Dros]

Other than the country he will be serving, I have no problem with people joining the military.

I have a problem with him joining the U.S. forces though.:p

Would you be okay with people joining the armed forces of Great Britain?

[Dros]

How exactly is he killing people by joining the Navy?

First, the navy does kill people. And if you're not physically dropping the bombs, you're still participating in a machine who's sole function is to enforce the will of the US imperial bourgeoisie abroad which sure as hell creates a ton of deaths. Members of the armed services are culpable.

[turquino]

First, the navy does kill people. And if you're not physically dropping the bombs, you're still participating in a machine who's sole function is to enforce the will of the US imperial bourgeoisie abroad which sure as hell creates a ton of deaths. Members of the armed services are culpable.
Right, and someone needs to man the machinery that helps 'secure the peace' and keep the rest of the world in line.

[Dros]

No I wouldn't be okay with that. I'm a communist like you.

After the implementation of socialism, where nasties from the West have to be kept at bay, an army is going to be needed if push comes to shove.

I'd support people to join the army in that situation.

I'd even support people be drafted in, for the greater good, if the situation was dire to maintain our communistic ideals.

That is, of course, a different situation entirely and a completely different army. Armies aren't innately bad. They are bad because of the material realities, social conditions, and production relations that they exist to perpetuate. Joining a capitalist backed army and joining a socialist army are entirely different acts.

It's a really bad plan to say that you have no problem with people joining the army because right now, almost every army in the world is reactionary! That's entirely different then saying that you don't oppose the existence of armies on principle.

[Charles Xavier]

Many communists joined the armed forces during war. After the war they used their experiences to combat capitalism. Especially the Irish in the British Army, who later joined the IRA. I can't blame the many sons and daughters of the working class to enlisting in the army, what other ways is there to make a decent living? Surrounded by poverty everywhere, and then pops an opportunity that eventually you'll be able to get a home with unless you get your head blown off.

Either way we are the working class, we work for the capitalist class, we get exploited and they get rich from our work. We are helping out the capitalists no matter what job we get.

[Dros]

Many communists joined the armed forces during war. After the war they used their experiences to combat capitalism. Especially the Irish in the British Army, who later joined the IRA.

Look how that ended up for them...


I can't blame the many sons and daughters of the working class to enlisting in the army, what other ways is there to make a decent living? Surrounded by poverty everywhere, and then pops an opportunity that eventually you'll be able to get a home with unless you get your head blown off.

I recognize that for many people, there is an explanation for joining the military.


Either way we are the working class, we work for the capitalist class, we get exploited and they get rich from our work. We are helping out the capitalists no matter what job we get.

Being exploited and enforcing imperialist domination are entirely different things.

[freakazoid]

First, the navy does kill people. And if you're not physically dropping the bombs, you're still participating in a machine who's sole function is to enforce the will of the US imperial bourgeoisie abroad which sure as hell creates a ton of deaths. Members of the armed services are culpable.

Then we are all guilty of supporting capitalism.

[freakazoid]

Many communists joined the armed forces...

Holy cow, I'm agreeing with you. :thumbup:


Look how that ended up for them...

Are you saying you are against the IRA?

[freakazoid]

The soldiers, ie working class people, are exploited.

[Revolutiondownunder]

I Enlist Tomorrow!!!


Have fun dying for capitalism:p

[Bilan]

What the hell are you doing?

[freakazoid]

Yes, I understand that.

If exploited worker #1 is supporting capitalism because he's in the army doesn't mean that exploited worker #2 is supporting capitalism, say if he works in a factory.

Support as in agrees, or support as in helps keep it running?

[Hiero]

I think he means helps it keep runing.

I have been reading bit of Satre and he would lump both choices into the one action. By joining the arming you keep imperialism running and by choosing to join you agree with the the notion of imperialist and imperialist wars. If you truely did not believe in imperialism or disagree with the occupation of Iraq you would choose the alternative to not joing the army. Even in the case of a draft, you can always choose to resist forced enlistment. By going along with draft you choose to adhere to the current laws, by choosing to dodge the draft you make the statement that you do not agree with imperialism or whatever situation is forcing you to join.

[Plagueround]

That is a damned shame. Even so, take care of yourself.

[apathy maybe]

Yeah, I tend to agree with the notion that by joining the armed forces, you not only agree with the current system, explicitly endorsing US foreign policy right now, but you are consenting to agree to future foreign policy, no matter what it is.

Same as voting, by voting, you are signalling support for the system, and whomever is elected, no matter what they do.

You are giving support into the future, when you can't tell that future.

By joining the military of the USA (and this applies to other countries as well, but the OP is from the USA), you agree that the bombing of Iraq, Afghanistan are just and reasonable. If the USA goes to war tomorrow against Russia, you agree that it is a good thing, and are willing to fight.

Being a police officer is the same sort of thing. If you are a cop, you are agreeing to the system, and to upholding the law, no matter what the law is. Because that's your job, lock up drug users, and other "perpetrators" of no-victim crimes.

Being in the military is agree to shoot (or support the system the enables others to shoot) anyone whom you are ordered to. Say you are a cook on an aircraft carrier. You aren't doing any killing, you aren't anywhere near the killing. But you are part of a machine that sends planes up to some high altitude to drop bombs on people that the pilot can't even see (including wedding parties).

You are part of the system that shoots innocents and calls it "collateral damage".

My only advice if you continue with this bullshit is: get out as soon as you can.

(Other people have posted before about this crap, I haven't got any links just now, but I'll search for them and post them.)

From a vet:

Joining the militery is like walking up to a cop and asking him if you can skip the whole crime, arrest, and court and just be sent right to jail for four years.

Think about it! You eat crapy food, sit on some shity base or locked away inside some ship, wearing all the same clothing and having orders being barked at you all the time. Being told when to sleep, when to get up, where you will live (and who with) what job you are to spend your day doing, and who you will kill for the countery.
(Link posted below.)

[BIG BROTHER]

so, you are willing to murder and risk your life in order to protect the ruling class?

[freakazoid]

Being in the military is agree to shoot (or support the system the enables others to shoot) anyone whom you are ordered to. Say you are a cook on an aircraft carrier. You aren't doing any killing, you aren't anywhere near the killing. But you are part of a machine that sends planes up to some high altitude to drop bombs on people that the pilot can't (including wedding parties).

So this is basically guilt by association? A sort of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon? So are Boeing workers supporters then? Because they make the planes that the US buys. How about people who work at oil refineries? Since the military has to get there oil from them. Now where have I heard this before, oh yeah. Remember folks, by buying pot you are supporting terrorism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

I hope your boat sinks, with you onboard.

[disobey]

Die for Oil, sucker!

No but seriously, if you get a chance, pop one in the back of your commander's head.

[apathy maybe]

"I wanted to join for 2 major reasons.
1) I was born and rised in my country, and if anything were to happen i would want to defend it against any other countries army.
2) i want to understand how militaries work, i read alot about it, but in depth research. Maybe one day i will have to go against one, i don't know. *

i know it sounds fucked up..." *-- lostsoul

Why do you want to defend Canada against the armies of other countries? * The fact that you were born and grew up there is an accident of history.

As is Canada itself...and all nations. * Not only is there nothing "sacred" or "inevitable" about any particular nation, it can be seen historically how it came into existence, who benefited from its construction and who got screwed, what mythologies were invented to "justify" it, etc.

Fighting for "your" country makes no more sense than fighting for "your" corporation.

As to learning combat skills, lostsoul, I can't help but wonder why you need that knowledge? * A real communist revolution is actually an enormous upsurge by a majority, even a huge majority, of the working class (think February 1917 in Petrograd)...it's not a case, at least for more than a few hours or a few days, of military combat.

Of course, people have different interests and if you feel really compelled to learn this stuff, the books are out there and you can certainly train yourself in the basics. * You can even purchase a rifle suitable for combat use...I think they cost around U.S.$1,200.

But I would discourage that interest on your part if I could. * It's unlikely to be of much use in a real revolutionary situation...and, I think, encourages "nutball deviations"...let's go off into the hills and shoot at people like Che did.

You admit that "it sounds fucked up"...that's because it is fucked up.

DON'T DO IT!



PS: *about "peacekeepers": * despite the innocuous name, are such forces not actually surrogate occupation troops for U.S. imperialism? * Why should people from Canada, Denmark, etc. have to take the flack for U.S. domination of occupied countries?

PPS: *for Zelena: *is there a country fairly nearby that you can go and live in and that will not care if you ever did military service in Greece or Bulgaria? *If so, you should move there as soon as you can.

Failing that, you need to convince the military authorities in both countries that you are "undesirable material". * What I did back when the U.S. still had military conscription, was convince the army that I was a fire-breathing, rabid, communist trouble-maker...and, surprise, they decided to pass me up "for the good of the service." * You'll need to do something like this unless you're willing to surrender a big chunk of your youth to those bloodsucking bastards.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/military-anyone-t9268/index2.html

http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-they-still-t59044/index.html?t=59044


Of course admittedly, I served in the NAVY, not the ARMY or USMC. There’s a difference there actually. Not being anywhere near a rifle or combat seems pretty appealing to many who join the Navy. You can travel more, learn a skill live off the government and be miles away from anything your ship is busy destroying. Of course there is a kind of rebellious spirit among sailors that I found out after getting in, and we all seemed to find a common bond in hating the Navy. It seems like the majority of people I met when I was in the service was like me… they thought it was a good idea till they got in and than realized too late they made a big mistake.

The whole patriotic propaganda crap really works for marines and army people. The recent wars we’ve been involved in have all been pretty much shown as “video war games” no real death and destruction have been shown. Serving in the military all seems so noble and good. Everyone knows at least one person in their family that has served and has noble stories to tell that thrill child like imaginations of being some kind of hero.

The stories my father told me however were more about how the US Army drafted him and put him in some hell hole in Georgia during the civil rights conflict and how he wished he could take off his uniform and join the other side.

The day I came home and told my dad I join the Navy he almost punched me in the face. But than came to understand that I could get a lot out of it for basically volunteering to be a prisoner for four years. (we wear the same uniforms in the Navy as prisoners).

I think it is the duty of each veteran to come home and tell the truth about the military to as many people as they can. They don’t necessarily have to join Veterans for peace, but they do have to help stop the cycle of young able bodied youths signing their lives away to become government tools for destruction and exploitation of other people around the world.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/can-you-blame-t20065/index.html?t=20065&highlight=navy
(This guy actually knows what he was talking about.)

http://www.revleft.com/vb/armed-forces-t20041/index.html?t=20041



OK... I don't throw my Veteran status around very much, it's not something I'm quite proud of as it resembles a time in my life when I was dumb and made a big mistake because I wasn't sure what to do with my life.


YOU ARE MAKING A BIG MISTAKE!

Joining the militery is like walking up to a cop and asking him if you can skip the whole crime, arrest, and court and just be sent right to jail for four years.

Think about it! You eat crapy food, sit on some shity base or locked away inside some ship, wearing all the same clothing and having orders being barked at you all the time. Being told when to sleep, when to get up, where you will live (and who with) what job you are to spend your day doing, and who you will kill for the countery.

As for the ROTC rank thing. I am supprised that the USMC didn't tell you that you do not skip two ranks in the Marines as you do the other branches of service. In the Marines, you only go up to E-2, while all the others you go up to E-3... to make E-4 in the Marines is actually much harder than in the other services as advancement is low in the Marines in general. Making E-5 in the Navy can be difficult too, depending on what rate you are. It all depends on how many higher ranking personel are needed for you to advance, so basicly it depends on someone retiring or getting killed for you to go up.

The militery will also tell you that you can learn a trade while in the service, and therefore easily get a job when you get out. This however is a lie. Many of the trade skills that you learn in the Navy for example are vastly different than outside. Militery wiring is different than civilian wiring, militery aircraft are diffrent than civilian aircraft... etc..

They may even send you to a school to learn a trade and than you'll find yourself doing something totally different. I went to two welding schools, yet found myself unclogging toilets on a ship for four years. Being that you want to join the Marines, heck you may get trained in aircraft mechanics and than find yourself in the jungle killing some communist revolutionaries, or more likely... Iraq

The fact is, you can get better job training that is actually applicable to the real world by going to a trade school. Go find out about getting into an electronic/computer repair trade school. You'll have to take a cetificate test, but you will make a heck of a lot more money after the 6 - 7 months of training than a whole four years of working in the same trade in the militery.

Take it from a Vet!

The militery is the last place in the world you want to be these days!!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/armed-forces-t20041/index3.html

http://www.revleft.com/vb/being-communist-and-t6217/index.html?t=6217


I advice you AbLin to read what RedCeltic has had to say, and, if you are still interested, what redstar2000 has had to say. Basically, joining the Navy isn't a fun thing to do.

[apathy maybe]

So this is basically guilt by association? A sort of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon? So are Boeing workers supporters then? Because they make the planes that the US buys. How about people who work at oil refineries? Since the military has to get there oil from them. Now where have I heard this before, oh yeah. Remember folks, by buying pot you are supporting terrorism.

Yes it is "guilt by association", by being in an organisation who's sole aim is to enforce US foreign policy by whatever means (up to and including killing whomever gets in the way).

I'm not going to disagree that most people in the military are "workers", however, the fact remains that they have joined the oppressors.

Boeing workers are not in that organisation, but yes, if they are knowingly making war-planes and tanks, then I think that they should get the fuck out of that job and do something else.

And if there was an oil platform that only provided oil to the military, and not to anyone else, then workers on that are supporting the machine as well, and should get the fuck out of that job.

But if nothing else, at least the oil platform and Boeing workers can get out, they get to choice where they sleep, and what they eat. In the military those decisions get taken away from you and made by someone else.

[Killfacer]

some pretty blatantly out of order people here. Cant see the appeal myself but i wish you luck. Dont get yourself killed, taken hostage, blown up.

If possible try and take over a ship for the revolution also:)

[pusher robot]

Yes it is "guilt by association", by being in an organisation who's sole aim is to enforce US foreign policy by whatever means (up to and including killing whomever gets in the way).

I'm not going to disagree that most people in the military are "workers", however, the fact remains that they have joined the oppressors.

Boeing workers are not in that organisation, but yes, if they are knowingly making war-planes and tanks, then I think that they should get the fuck out of that job and do something else.

And if there was an oil platform that only provided oil to the military, and not to anyone else, then workers on that are supporting the machine as well, and should get the fuck out of that job.

But if nothing else, at least the oil platform and Boeing workers can get out, they get to choice where they sleep, and what they eat. In the military those decisions get taken away from you and made by someone else.

Well. Every American materially supports the military through their tax contributions; after all, without those contributions, the military would have no resources. Even worse, by your reasoning, they don't get to choose what those contributions are spent on, or even whether to contribute. Those decisions are taken away from them and made by someone else. So I can't help thinking your condemnation should really apply with about equal force to every US taxpayer.

[Bud Struggle]

some pretty blatantly out of order people here.

Damn straight on that.

Brother Abe, I wish you well on you journeys. Enjoy, learn and grow from your visit to other places and cultures. Your are a good write and a good thinker--if you can, please post about anything of interest that you see.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Stay safe.

Tom

[apathy maybe]

Well. Every American materially supports the military through their tax contributions; after all, without those contributions, the military would have no resources. Even worse, by your reasoning, they don't get to choose what those contributions are spent on, or even whether to contribute. Those decisions are taken away from them and made by someone else. So I can't help thinking your condemnation should really apply with about equal force to every US taxpayer.
Did you know that Henry David Thoreau once spent a night in prison because he refused to pay a tax?

I have paid no poll-tax for six years. I was put into a jail once on this account, for one night; and, as I stood considering the walls of solid stone, two or three feet thick, the door of wood and iron, a foot thick, and the iron grating which strained the light, I could not help being struck with the foolishness of that institution which treated me as if I were mere flesh and blood and bones, to be locked up.

I have never declined paying the highway tax, because I am as desirous of being a good neighbor as I am of being a bad subject; and as for supporting schools, I am doing my part to educate my fellow-countrymen now. It is for no particular item in the tax-bill that I refuse to pay it. I simply wish to refuse allegiance to the State, to withdraw and stand aloof from it effectually. I do not care to trace the course of my dollar, if I could, till it buys a man or a musket to shoot one with — the dollar is innocent — but I am concerned to trace the effects of my allegiance. In fact, I quietly declare war with the State, after my fashion, though I will still make what use and get what advantage of her I can, as is usual in such cases.

If others pay the tax which is demanded of me, from a sympathy with the State, they do but what they have already done in their own case, or rather they abet injustice to a greater extent than the State requires. If they pay the tax from a mistaken interest in the individual taxed, to save his property, or prevent his going to jail, it is because they have not considered wisely how far they let their private feelings interfere with the public good.
That's from Civil Disobedience, which you can find in many places on the web (I won't link to any one place, because some have different slants to others).


But anyway, there were two parts to my post that you quoted. The first is that those person's working directly to support the machinery of war (through building tanks etc., or if such a thing existed on a military oil rig), should stop for that reason.

The other part was, that such people are at least better off then the people in the military, who get told what to eat etc.


So, every person who pays tax does not support the military directly. But yes, if everyone refused to pay the USA government, it would not work so well. (Certain governments would continue to work fine, as they don't raise taxes from individuals. The Arabian government for example.)

And it is terrible that they don't get to choose, but I'm not condemning anyone for not having an option! The tax payer pays or is punished, why should I condemn the tax payer (rather then the government which taxes it)?

The worker at the tank factory has the option to leave, and should exercise that option.

[nuisance]

A mate of mine totally changed after being in the army for the initial six week period. Before he was a nice guy but now he is one of the most pointlessly violent people you'll meet and seems to suffer from some inferiority complex that makes him feel he has to act overtly aggressive so that we won't walk all over him. It's ashame.

[Dust Bunnies]

The military can change people sadly. :(

[RedAnarchist]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

What a naive and useful person you must be in the eyes of your government.

Nevertheless, try not to get yourself killed for the sake of your government, ok?

[Dust Bunnies]

What a naive and useful person you must be in the eyes of your government.

Nevertheless, try not to get yourself killed for the sake of your government, ok?

If he does die it is one less Cappie ;)

[Bud Struggle]

Did you Communist's ever think that your perennial meanspiritedness might be a reason for your lack of appeal to the masses?

Gordon Gecko is a nicer guy than most of you Communists.

One of our fellow posters has made an important life decision and all you can do is mock him? It's his decision make for reasons that go way beyond this board or of any sort of Forum politics. Abe is a nice guy and a valuable poster and a well thought out person.

Wish him well and be done with it.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well. Every American materially supports the military through their tax contributions; after all, without those contributions, the military would have no resources. Even worse, by your reasoning, they don't get to choose what those contributions are spent on, or even whether to contribute. Those decisions are taken away from them and made by someone else. So I can't help thinking your condemnation should really apply with about equal force to every US taxpayer.
thats a false analogy because you have a choice over wether or not to join the military; you don't have a choice wether or not to pay tax.

If everyone boycotted their labour and services to the military it would become inoperable.

[Dr Mindbender]

Did you Communist's ever think that your perennial meanspiritedness might be a reason for your lack of appeal to the masses?

Gordon Gecko is a nicer guy than most of you Communists.

One of our fellow posters has made an important life decision and all you can do is mock him? It's his decision make for reasons that go way beyond this board or of any sort of Forum politics. Abe is a nice guy and a valuable poster and a well thought out person.

Wish him well and be done with it.

my only hope is his experiences turn him into an ardent communist, as was the case with one vietnam vet i knew whose disgust at american atrocities in vietnam turned him away from capitalism and his countries foreign policies.

[Bud Struggle]

my only hope is his experiences turn him into an ardent communist, as was the case with one vietnam vet i knew whose disgust at american atrocities in vietnam turned him away from capitalism and his countries foreign policies.

Fine, but don't hope he freakin' boat sinks.

[Dr Mindbender]

Fine, but don't hope he freakin' boat sinks.

neither do i; i hope he comes back safely but with a diminished bloodlust for his fellow proletariat.

[Comrade Castro]

1-2-3 What are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn. The next stop is Vietnam .
5-6-7 Open up the pearly gates.
It ain’t no time to wonder why. Yippee! We’re all going to die.

-- Country Joe and the Fish

[PigmerikanMao]

I can't support this guy's decision, but damn! Some of the mockery here is worse than what I would ever say. You people are mean! :laugh:

[Dros]

Did you Communist's ever think that your perennial meanspiritedness might be a reason for your lack of appeal to the masses?

No. Our lack of appeal is a product of present and historical material conditions that have conditioned and are conditioning first world political discourse. Political ideologies rise and fall because of material factors, not because one is nicer than the other.

Except in the case of Hitler who rose to power by handing out teddy bears.;)

[Dean]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

Mmm wonderful, the smell of roasted Iraqi children. creates a joy... seldom hidden.

[freakazoid]

As to learning combat skills, lostsoul, I can't help but wonder why you need that knowledge? * A real communist revolution is actually an enormous upsurge by a majority, even a huge majority, of the working classWell then what about the Spanish revolution? Yes, you are going to need to know combat skills.


Of course, people have different interests and if you feel really compelled to learn this stuff, the books are out there and you can certainly train yourself in the basics. * The military offers real training, far superior than you would normally be able to train yourself.


But I would discourage that interest on your part if I could. * It's unlikely to be of much use in a real revolutionary situation...and, I think, encourages "nutball deviations"...let's go off into the hills and shoot at people like Che did.lolz


They may even send you to a school to learn a trade and than you'll find yourself doing something totally different. I went to two welding schools, yet found myself unclogging toilets on a ship for four years. Being that you want to join the Marines, heck you may get trained in aircraft mechanics and than find yourself in the jungle killing some communist revolutionaries, or more likely... IraqThere is this thing called guaranteed enlistment.


The militery will also tell you that you can learn a trade while in the service, and therefore easily get a job when you get out. This however is a lie. Many of the trade skills that you learn in the Navy for example are vastly different than outside. Militery wiring is different than civilian wiring, militery aircraft are diffrent than civilian aircraft... etc..It's not a lie, you just have to know what it is that you are signing up for.


The fact is, you can get better job training that is actually applicable to the real world by going to a trade school. Go find out about getting into an electronic/computer repair trade school.Have fun paying for that.


You'll have to take a cetificate test, but you will make a heck of a lot more money after the 6 - 7 months of training than a whole four years of working in the same trade in the militery.Wrong for the most part, obviously is going to depend on what trade you are in but in general is wrong. First there is paying for the schooling, which college is now freaking expensive. Also you will have to pay for car insurance, gas, food, etc. All of which you either won't need or do not have to pay for in the military. Plus there is the free college education you can get.


The other part was, that such people are at least better off then the people in the military, who get told what to eat etc.Oh noes. And you actually can choose what you eat.


you don't have a choice wether or not to pay tax.Yes you do, remember Thoreau?


And it is terrible that they don't get to choose, but I'm not condemning anyone for not having an option! The tax payer pays or is punished, why should I condemn the tax payer (rather then the government which taxes it)?So, do you or do you not condemn the people who did not avoid the draft? They either join or they are punished. And what does it matter if they would be punished for choosing to avoid it? They still have an option but they choose to contribute. Also what about people like say janitors where one of the places they clean up are military bases?


The worker at the tank factory has the option to leave, and should exercise that option.That sounds a lot like the capitalist mode of thinking. If you don't like a company you are working for because they treat there employees like crap then just go work for a different company. So do you also condemn people who work at grocery stores? Because sometimes military people come in to by there food and by you supporting them you are supporting the military.

Why signing up for the military can be a very good thing. Like I said earlier, you do not need car insurance or pay for gas because you will not even need a car. You do not have to pay for food. Also you don't have to pay for a house because you don't need one. So all of the money you get paid is completely yours. Plus there is the free college education. It can also provide you with combat skills, and get you into shape. It can also provide a way to find like minded people, like what RedCeltic had said. Anybody remember the Russian revolution? And plus it is a great way for people with really no hope for much of a future because of there current situation whatever that may be to get themselves financially stable. Also there are sign up bonuses, and re-enlistment bonuses, and depending on what you do they can be different amounts. Like take the Nuke program in the Navy. Sign up bonus $20,000. Signing up for an extra 2 years, excluding the automatic 2 years extra you will be doing because of schooling which I will explain later, is about another $65,000. Then Signing up for an extra 4 years after that is about another $95,000. So add that all together and you have about $180,000 just for being in the Navy for 12 years. And don't forget all of the regular pay you will be getting, which is all yours because you don't have to pay for food etc. So once you get out you will have quite a hefty amount of money. Now what I was talking about for needing to sign up for 6 years instead of the normal 4 is because you have an extra 2 years of MIT college courses to study what you will need to know on how to work with the nuclear reactors on either aircraft carriers or subs, depending on whatever you choose and I believe you get another bonus or larger pay for choosing the sub. Once you are done with the schooling you will be just a few credit hours short of a BA, something like 52 or 72 hours worth of college credit. Also once you are done with the navy you can work for a nuclear power plant, they hire most of there people from the Navy because not only do they have the schooling but because of all the hands on training, they generally make around $100,000. Of course the nuke program is definitely high up there on pay than most, and don't expect the schooling to be easy at all, but it is still one thing that you can do.

[Dean]

Did you Communist's ever think that your perennial meanspiritedness might be a reason for your lack of appeal to the masses?

Gordon Gecko is a nicer guy than most of you Communists.

One of our fellow posters has made an important life decision and all you can do is mock him? It's his decision make for reasons that go way beyond this board or of any sort of Forum politics. Abe is a nice guy and a valuable poster and a well thought out person.

Wish him well and be done with it.

Abe implied that he would shoot me with an assault rifle and blame it on the Russian state.

And now he has decided to enlist into an imperialist army which is responsible for some pretty terrible stuff. I don't have much nice to say about such people, and I don't expect any more from anyone else.

[XII Bones IIX]

Yeah well the military is possibly the most pathetic thing in the history of the U.S. right now. Sure it's saved our ass before but we're exploiting it and using it for shit.

[pusher robot]

thats a false analogy because you have a choice over wether or not to join the military; you don't have a choice wether or not to pay tax.

If everyone boycotted their labour and services to the military it would become inoperable.

Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of conscription?

[maverick]

Well then what about the Spanish revolution? Yes, you are going to need to know combat skills.

The military offers real training, far superior than you would normally be able to train yourself.

lolz

There is this thing called guaranteed enlistment.

It's not a lie, you just have to know what it is that you are signing up for.

Have fun paying for that.

Wrong for the most part, obviously is going to depend on what trade you are in but in general is wrong. First there is paying for the schooling, which college is now freaking expensive. Also you will have to pay for car insurance, gas, food, etc. All of which you either won't need or do not have to pay for in the military. Plus there is the free college education you can get.

Oh noes. And you actually can choose what you eat.

Yes you do, remember Thoreau?

So, do you or do you not condemn the people who did not avoid the draft? They either join or they are punished. And what does it matter if they would be punished for choosing to avoid it? They still have an option but they choose to contribute. Also what about people like say janitors where one of the places they clean up are military bases?

That sounds a lot like the capitalist mode of thinking. If you don't like a company you are working for because they treat there employees like crap then just go work for a different company. So do you also condemn people who work at grocery stores? Because sometimes military people come in to by there food and by you supporting them you are supporting the military.

Why signing up for the military can be a very good thing. Like I said earlier, you do not need car insurance or pay for gas because you will not even need a car. You do not have to pay for food. Also you don't have to pay for a house because you don't need one. So all of the money you get paid is completely yours. Plus there is the free college education. It can also provide you with combat skills, and get you into shape. It can also provide a way to find like minded people, like what RedCeltic had said. Anybody remember the Russian revolution? And plus it is a great way for people with really no hope for much of a future because of there current situation whatever that may be to get themselves financially stable. Also there are sign up bonuses, and re-enlistment bonuses, and depending on what you do they can be different amounts. Like take the Nuke program in the Navy. Sign up bonus $20,000. Signing up for an extra 2 years, excluding the automatic 2 years extra you will be doing because of schooling which I will explain later, is about another $65,000. Then Signing up for an extra 4 years after that is about another $95,000. So add that all together and you have about $180,000 just for being in the Navy for 12 years. And don't forget all of the regular pay you will be getting, which is all yours because you don't have to pay for food etc. So once you get out you will have quite a hefty amount of money. Now what I was talking about for needing to sign up for 6 years instead of the normal 4 is because you have an extra 2 years of MIT college courses to study what you will need to know on how to work with the nuclear reactors on either aircraft carriers or subs, depending on whatever you choose and I believe you get another bonus or larger pay for choosing the sub. Once you are done with the schooling you will be just a few credit hours short of a BA, something like 52 or 72 hours worth of college credit. Also once you are done with the navy you can work for a nuclear power plant, they hire most of there people from the Navy because not only do they have the schooling but because of all the hands on training, they generally make around $100,000. Of course the nuke program is definitely high up there on pay than most, and don't expect the schooling to be easy at all, but it is still one thing that you can do.

You sir are smart.

I agree 100%.

[Dean]

That sounds a lot like the capitalist mode of thinking. If you don't like a company you are working for because they treat there employees like crap then just go work for a different company. So do you also condemn people who work at grocery stores? Because sometimes military people come in to by there food and by you supporting them you are supporting the military.

There is a reason that it's pretty much unheard of for leftists to join imperial armies.

[XII Bones IIX]

The soldiers, ie working class people, are exploited.
Far too true. They're promised so much only to run the risk of being killed for no good reason.

[Bud Struggle]

Abe implied that he would shoot me with an assault rifle and blame it on the Russian state.


You should see what it's like to be a Cappie. Everyone is shooting me all the time around here. :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

No. Our lack of appeal is a product of present and historical material conditions that have conditioned and are conditioning first world political discourse. Political ideologies rise and fall because of material factors, not because one is nicer than the other.

Except in the case of Hitler who rose to power by handing out teddy bears.;)

I'm more in favor of the "great Men" theory of history. Men like (and great doesn't mean good) Hitler and Tojo and Stalin and Napoleon and Henry VIII and people of that ilk set things into motion that change the world. some of those guys are born into the job and some do it themselves but when things slow down one of these guys comes t the fore and starts up trouble.

I think the USE ideas as it suits them (Hugo Chavez using Communism for an example). He's no more Communist than I am--but it suits his purpose to use Socialism to gain and stay in power. You have to admit that your boy Stalin strayed al long way from Marx to get his Soviet Union to be his little puppy dog. Stalin was about POWER and Communism was just the means to the end.

[Demogorgon]

I'm more in favor of the "great Men" theory of history. Men like (and great doesn't mean good) Hitler and Tojo and Stalin and Napoleon and Henry VIII and people of that ilk set things into motion that change the world. some of those guys are born into the job and some do it themselves but when things slow down one of these guys comes t the fore and starts up trouble.

I think the USE ideas as it suits them (Hugo Chavez using Communism for an example). He's no more Communist than I am--but it suits his purpose to use Socialism to gain and stay in power. You have to admit that your boy Stalin strayed al long way from Marx to get his Soviet Union to be his little puppy dog. Stalin was about POWER and Communism was just the means to the end.
Stalin was, of course, the 20th centuries Augustus Caesar, but if he hadn't done it, somebody else would have. If not for him, would the Soviet Union not have plunged into tyranny? People talk about Stalin doing all these bad things, but he hardly did them on his own. He had a huge state apparatus carrying out these things and that didn't simply come out of nowhere. Don't get me wrong, a diferent series of policies could have taken the Soviet Union in a more positive direction, but I think it is a cop out (one frequently indulged in by Communists incidentally) to say it was all one man's fault.

The same goes for Hitler. He was a nasty piece of work, but nasty pieces of work don't necessarily get a chance to put their disgusting ideas into practice. Germany was in a situation that was ripe for him to do what he did. He tapped into feelings that a lot of people held. If not for him, these feelings wouldn't simply have evaporated.

[Killfacer]

the soviet union DID plunge in to tyranny.

[Dros]

I'm more in favor of the "great Men" theory of history. Men like (and great doesn't mean good) Hitler and Tojo and Stalin and Napoleon and Henry VIII and people of that ilk set things into motion that change the world. some of those guys are born into the job and some do it themselves but when things slow down one of these guys comes t the fore and starts up trouble.

Historical materialism, correctly understood, does not negate that certain individuals play roles of historic importance. What's important to understand is that their actions were conditioned by the material realities of the present and their ideas were also conditioned by those realities, past and present.


I think the USE ideas as it suits them (Hugo Chavez using Communism for an example). He's no more Communist than I am--but it suits his purpose to use Socialism to gain and stay in power.

Often times, that's true.


You have to admit that your boy Stalin strayed al long way from Marx to get his Soviet Union to be his little puppy dog. Stalin was about POWER and Communism was just the means to the end.

Actually I don't and I won't. If Stalin was all about power, then why did he join the RSDLP in 1898? Why not the Czar? OR why not the whites, or later, the Mensheviks? All factions much more likely to win the ensuing power struggle than the Bolsheviks.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

People still believe in the Great Men theory? Well, I guess we're still debating whether or not the Earth is 12,000 years old to creationists...

[gla22]

just because you are state sponsored dosen't make you less of a murderer.

[danyboy27]

good luck for your training!

[Decolonize The Left]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

Enjoy being dehumanized and conditioned to kill human beings for no logical and rational reason... wait, there's a better word for this, oh yeah: a tool.


Did you Communist's ever think that your perennial meanspiritedness might be a reason for your lack of appeal to the masses?

Gordon Gecko is a nicer guy than most of you Communists.

One of our fellow posters has made an important life decision and all you can do is mock him? It's his decision make for reasons that go way beyond this board or of any sort of Forum politics. Abe is a nice guy and a valuable poster and a well thought out person.

Wish him well and be done with it.

"Nice guys" don't sign up to murder people unless they are ignorant fools. I shall not "wish him well."
Firstly, my wishes will not change anything, nor will yours, nor anyones.
Secondly, he is not an ignorant fool as he has had ample opportunity to read opposing arguments to the military and the capitalist system.
Thirdly, listen closely... can you hear foreign brown people screaming as they are murdered? Yup, that's the military right at work.

Good to know Abe will be another nameless, faceless, drone which will be asked to serve the state in the rape, murder, pillage, and destruction of foreign peoples all for the interests of a class which survives on the exploitation and oppression of billions worldwide.

But hey, he's a nice guy right? We should cut him a break. You know he's just doing what he needs to do.

Bullshit. He is a free human being who is responsible for his choices. And he's choosing to support imperialism, oppression, war, and capitalism - and worse, he's choosing to be used for these purposes. He gets no kind words.

- August

[Forward Union]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.

Congradulations.

[Forward Union]

Enjoy being dehumanized and conditioned to kill human beings for no logical and rational reason... wait, there's a better word for this, oh yeah: a tool.

Work is dehumanising and most industries kill (work is a bigger killer than war actually), so wherever you work you will be tied into this shit. People are not tools because they have jobs that serve the interests of the state.

I like when working class people get armed and taught how to fight.

[avantgarde]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.
Piss off you little chauvanist.

[Bud Struggle]

Piss off you little chauvanist.

This guy is BOGOVICH! :lol:

[Dros]

Work is dehumanising and most industries kill (work is a bigger killer than war actually), so wherever you work you will be tied into this shit. People are not tools because they have jobs that serve the interests of the state.

I like when working class people get armed and taught how to fight.

We all know why you're saying this and no one is buying it.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Fine, but don't hope he freakin' boat sinks.

What else should a consistent communist think about someone who makles a conscious decision to join up with one of the primary tools of US imperialism?

The fact that he might come away from it with revolutuionary conclusions is trivial - only a minority of those who enlist come away with such conclusions. And if that does happen in his case, I'm sure he'll forgive me for making the most obvious conclusion about his potential future political development.


Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of conscription?

If I remember correctly, conscription isn't voluntary if for whatever reason you cannot resist it.


Work is dehumanising and most industries kill (work is a bigger killer than war actually), so wherever you work you will be tied into this shit.

Outside of the military, most work-related deaths are accidental. Serving in the armed forces is the only area of work I know of where one is trained to obey orders instantly, without question or thought.

How the fuck is such a mindset, which is drilled into the recruit through various methods, including drill/parade, "beasting" (the imposition of physical exercise as a form of punishment), and the enforcement of "military ettiquette" (saluting officers etc), remotely compatible with the mindset of a leftist revolutionary, which constantly asks questions, thinks for itself, distrusts authority, and so on and so forth?

[Hiero]

Work is dehumanising and most industries kill (work is a bigger killer than war actually), so wherever you work you will be tied into this shit. People are not tools because they have jobs that serve the interests of the state.

I like when working class people get armed and taught how to fight.

By practicing on brown people.

This little Eichmann has just joined a state apparatus thats sole purpose is to maintain bourgeoisie rule. What ever skills he will learn can not realisticaly at this time be applied to socialist struggle and is worthy of the implications that arise from joining an imperialist institution.

[pusher robot]

If I remember correctly, conscription isn't voluntary if for whatever reason you cannot resist it.

Very good! Now, please explain - keeping in mind that conscription is involuntary, how exactly a voluntary boycott would render the military "inoperable."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Very good! Now, please explain - keeping in mind that conscription is involuntary, how exactly a voluntary boycott would render the military "inoperable."

The answer to that question depends on what proportion of those who are able to resist by running away, not turning up to the enlistment centre or wherever, deserting, getting themselves kicked out and so on, versus those who can't, and how many of those who can resist choose to do so.

In other words, it depends.

[Forward Union]

Outside of the military, most work-related deaths are accidental.

Yes. And who is responsible for that? The boss, who more often than not, doesn't train the employees properly and skips on safety regulation because it's not cost effective. This has been a massive focus for Unions for hundreds of years. People don't die in the workplace more than in wars because they're clumbsy oafs. They die because of negligence. So almost all bussinisses kill on a regular basis, and by working for them, you're helping the culprit get rich, so he can pay for lawyers to get away with killing more workers. Hey, maybe we should opt out of the system all together man. That's the logical conclusion.



How the fuck is such a mindset, which is drilled into the recruit through various methods, including drill/parade, "beasting" (the imposition of physical exercise as a form of punishment), and the enforcement of "military ettiquette" (saluting officers etc), remotely compatible with the mindset of a leftist revolutionary, which constantly asks questions, thinks for itself, distrusts authority, and so on and so forth


It's not, but no one was arguing it was?

[Forward Union]

By practicing on brown people.

I don't think they train soldiers in the actual theatre of war.

[Decolonize The Left]

Yes. And who is responsible for that? The boss, who more often than not, doesn't train the employees properly and skips on safety regulation because it's not cost effective. This has been a massive focus for Unions for hundreds of years. People don't die in the workplace more than in wars because they're clumbsy oafs. They die because of negligence. So almost all bussinisses kill on a regular basis, and by working for them, you're helping the culprit get rich, so he can pay for lawyers to get away with killing more workers. Hey, maybe we should opt out of the system all together man. That's the logical conclusion.

Opting out of the system may be theoretically coherent, but it is often not practically feasible.

On the other hand, choosing to serve the system in the most blatant fashion is not the only alternative - nor is it one I support.

And no, serving in the military is not equivalent to working under capitalism. Why? For most people one must work to survive. For no one does one have to become trained to be a mindless killing machine and be ordered to shoot foreign people to survive. Not the same...


I don't think they train soldiers in the actual theatre of war.

No, they train them not to think about the fact that those brown people are actually people, so they shoot them and murder and pillage just because they were told to... this is what's called being a tool.

Under capitalism, your labor is used. In the military, you are used - your life, everything. You don't mean anything anymore, you are fodder, a body, a mass of organs capable of killing and used as such. If you die, you get sent back in a coffin with a flag draped on top (if there are remains), and that's it - they get another body to replace you. Your worth is purely derived from your ability to kill and terrorize.

Now you can coat this reality in whatever you want: reasons about money, patriotism, discrimination, scare-tactics, etc... but it's still the same. You can say, well I have to do it because... but you don't. There are alternatives and you are choosing to serve an institution who's sole purpose is the protection and continuation of imperialism, exploitation, oppression, and violence.

- August

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It's not, but no one was arguing it was?

My point is that revolutionary leftists do not join imperialist armies!.

[GeezAF]

In my opinion;

worker=/=soldier

workers work for their bosses because they need money to feed their families, whereas soldiers are risking their lives to uphold and spread an imperialist, capitalist system.

joining the sword arm of the state cannot be equated with being a slave to the wage. Putting one's life on the line for the privileges of the bourgeoisie requires a far higher level of commitment and obedience than simply working under them.

Yeah, the person who said this reflects my opinion quite nicely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustWest
Enjoy being dehumanized and conditioned to kill human beings for no logical and rational reason... wait, there's a better word for this, oh yeah: a tool.

[Bud Struggle]

Putting one's life on the line for the privileges of the bourgeoisie requires a far higher level of commitment and obedience than simply working under them.

Nonsense. They also serve, who stand and wait. :lol:

[Forward Union]

My point is that revolutionary leftists do not join imperialist armies!.

Did you come to that conclusion from an ideological position?

Or is it part of a well thought out practical plan that you have (but haven't divulged) involving the masses of unfit temp workers beating the elite British army in open war?

[Bud Struggle]

Actually I don't and I won't. If Stalin was all about power, then why did he join the RSDLP in 1898? Why not the Czar? OR why not the whites, or later, the Mensheviks? All factions much more likely to win the ensuing power struggle than the Bolsheviks.

Stalin was a genius (waiting for your argument here :lol:.) He played his cards well.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I think everyone here Is overreacting.

He's joining the navy, which in the wars of today removes him from the fighting as much as a civilian back home.

Not to mention that It's not the Sword's fault that's It's being wielded by a whackjob.

As far as I know, no imperialist army is currently fighting communists.

Look at Hugo Chavez if you will, a former Officer in the Venezuelan army's special forces back when Venezuela was a reactionary state.


The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Did you come to that conclusion from an ideological position?

Or is it part of a well thought out practical plan that you have (but haven't divulged) involving the masses of unfit temp workers beating the elite British army in open war?

"elite British army"? You really should stop watching those recruitment videos - it's obvious that Army propaganda is damaging to the critical faculties.

Or did you not notice the "elite" British army has failed to crush the Iraqi insurgency?

No tactics are required on the part of the working class - save simply refusing to work for the ruling class. Without support from the civilian sector, and even assuming that none of the soldiers defect/shoot their officers/whatever, the armed forces will quickly collapse.


I think everyone here Is overreacting.

He's joining the navy, which in the wars of today removes him from the fighting as much as a civilian back home.

It's not just about the fighting - the Navy are just as enthusiastic about instilling discipline as the Army or Air Force.


Not to mention that It's not the Sword's fault that's It's being wielded by a whackjob.It's one thing not to blame the tool for the actions of it's wielder - but it's quite another thing to "give weapons to wackjobs" which is what he is effectively doing by joining up. He is allowing himself to be fashioned into an implement of imperialist policy.


As far as I know, no imperialist army is currently fighting communists.That doesn't matter, as he will be furthering the ambitions of US imperialism, which communists are against.


Look at Hugo Chavez if you will, a former Officer in the Venezuelan army's special forces back when Venezuela was a reactionary state.


The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them.And the vast majority of those who enter the armed forces do not leave them with revolutionary conclusions.

[Bud Struggle]

And the vast majority of those who enter the armed forces do not leave them with revolutionary conclusions.

That's "revolutionary DElusions." :)

[Killfacer]

Ooooooh. Zing.

[RedAnarchist]

That's "revolutionary DElusions." :)

Are they similar to your delusions of grandeur?

[Bud Struggle]

Are they similar to your delusions of grandeur?

Hey, it worked for Stalin! :D

Anyway, above all that other stuff--me coming from Capitalism and LSD coming from Communism and essentially agreeing on issues--is a pretty nice thing that's been going on here. I'm interested in seeing how it's going to continue.

LSD is well thought out and a fine writer. Plague's making some fine comments, too.

Good stuff's going on here in OI.

[FreeFocus]

I shed no tears for imperialist pigs. As an anarchist, I oppose states and therefore their repressive and oppressive apparatuses, including the military and police. This is amplified when considering imperialist states.

Your psychological outlook may change while in the military (perhaps not as much as a Marine or others who act as "boots on the ground," though). By joining, you also bolster the institution. You may engage in "gunboat diplomacy," so no, even by joining the Navy, you're not "excluded" from anything.

Soldiers are not workers. Police are not workers. When it comes down to it, if you tried anything, they'd be the ones putting bullets in you (those who argue that they are "workers").

[JimmyJazz]

Lotta social patriots itt. A surprising number.


Enjoy being dehumanized and conditioned to kill human beings for no logical and rational reason... wait, there's a better word for this, oh yeah: a tool.

Well, you're half right. You're wrong in that imperialism is in fact quite logical and rational from the perspective of the international puppetmasters.

You're right that individual soldiers are just puppets.


I think everyone here Is overreacting.

He's joining the navy, which in the wars of today removes him from the fighting as much as a civilian back home.

Not to mention that It's not the Sword's fault that's It's being wielded by a whackjob.

As far as I know, no imperialist army is currently fighting communists.

Look at Hugo Chavez if you will, a former Officer in the Venezuelan army's special forces back when Venezuela was a reactionary state.

You, like anyone defending imperialist thuggery as a valid option for today's youth, simply do not understand and/or believe in working class internationalism.

Specifically this:


Not to mention that It's not the Sword's fault that's It's being wielded by a whackjob.

If by madman you're referring to Bush, you really ought to educate yourself about U.S. imperialism. Bush is not the slightest bit more imperialist than, for example, liberal poster boy JFK. The Democratic Party is at least as imperialist as the Republican Party. For a sampling, see here (http://www.questionwar.com/liberalholocaust.html). For something a little more complete, look at this list (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/interventions.htm) of interventions, and check up yourself (using Wiki or something) on who was in power during each one of these imperialist actions. The two parties are equally well represented, and almost all if not all individual U.S. presidents are represented.

If by madman you're referring to the United States, then your sword analogy falls to pieces. The "sword" has been wielded by a madman for over 200 years. No one joining it now can claim ignorance the next time it's used for the exact purpose it's been used for multiple centuries: imperialism.


The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them.

Right. And when that doesn't happen any time soon? Oh well, I just helped defend American hegemony for no reason, I guess. Shucks.


The soldiers, ie working class people, are exploited.

I'm not hating on individuals who join the military. I know three people who have done so and none of them are bad guys. I think few people here are hating on individual soldiers.

Nonetheless, since you bring up the fact that they are working class, I will point out that in class terms they are traitors. I assure you I say that without any of the emotionality that usually attaches to the word "traitor". It just describes the role they play.

More importantly though, they are traitors to their own humanity. I can excuse people for not understanding the class nature of capitalism or the economic motives behind American interventionism. But no one has an excuse for killing, or helping the killing, of their fellow human beings for the sake of King and Country. To see the wrongness of that requires no education.


by joining the armed forces, you not only agree with the current system, explicitly endorsing US foreign policy right now, but you are consenting to agree to future foreign policy, no matter what it is.

Of course. The fact that the U.S. Navy--which, among hundreds of other imperialist acts over the course of its existence, fired cruise missiles into Iraq, killing tons of civilians, during Clinton's rule--is not currently playing as large a role in the present (Iraq) conflict as other branches of the military are, must be about the weakest justification that I have ever heard for anything.


Why signing up for the military can be a very good thing. Like I said earlier, you do not need car insurance or pay for gas because you will not even need a car. You do not have to pay for food. Also you don't have to pay for a house because you don't need one. So all of the money you get paid is completely yours. Plus there is the free college education. It can also provide you with combat skills, and get you into shape. It can also provide a way to find like minded people, like what RedCeltic had said. Anybody remember the Russian revolution? And plus it is a great way for people with really no hope for much of a future because of there current situation whatever that may be to get themselves financially stable. Also there are sign up bonuses, and re-enlistment bonuses, and depending on what you do they can be different amounts. Like take the Nuke program in the Navy. Sign up bonus $20,000. Signing up for an extra 2 years, excluding the automatic 2 years extra you will be doing because of schooling which I will explain later, is about another $65,000. Then Signing up for an extra 4 years after that is about another $95,000. So add that all together and you have about $180,000 just for being in the Navy for 12 years. And don't forget all of the regular pay you will be getting, which is all yours because you don't have to pay for food etc. So once you get out you will have quite a hefty amount of money. Now what I was talking about for needing to sign up for 6 years instead of the normal 4 is because you have an extra 2 years of MIT college courses to study what you will need to know on how to work with the nuclear reactors on either aircraft carriers or subs, depending on whatever you choose and I believe you get another bonus or larger pay for choosing the sub. Once you are done with the schooling you will be just a few credit hours short of a BA, something like 52 or 72 hours worth of college credit. Also once you are done with the navy you can work for a nuclear power plant, they hire most of there people from the Navy because not only do they have the schooling but because of all the hands on training, they generally make around $100,000. Of course the nuke program is definitely high up there on pay than most, and don't expect the schooling to be easy at all, but it is still one thing that you can do.

No one's disputing that it can be very individually beneficial to join an imperialist army. If it weren't, people wouldn't do it. In fact, it would make sense for there to be an almost direct relationship between how evil a person/government is and how well it compensates the members of its armed forces. I imagine most petty dictators take quite good care of their military. Same thing for petty (and not-so-petty) imperialists.

Also, aren't you the guy who supported bombing police cars? And now you're defending the military? That's awesome. :lol:


I hope your boat sinks, with you onboard.

For the record, CultofAbeLincoln--assuming this thread is real and not a troll--I hope your boat sinks and you make it safely into a lifeboat. :) In the present historical phase, I wish similar fates for all U.S. military hardware and all U.S. military personnel.



To end this long and ranting post, and to provide some counterbalancing news to the op, here (http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7953) is the story of a soldier who fought in Iraq and is now running for Congress on the Party for Socialism and Liberation ticket.

[Chapter 24]

He's joining the navy, which in the wars of today removes him from the fighting as much as a civilian back home.

That's not the point at all.


Not to mention that It's not the Sword's fault that's It's being wielded by a whackjob.

That's not comparable at all. The sword does not willingly get wielded by this "whackjob". It is not supporting it through its own choice.


As far as I know, no imperialist army is currently fighting communists.

Also not the point. Whether an imperialist army is fighting communist guerrillas or nationalists in the country they're occupying, it is imperialism and therefore not to be supported.


Look at Hugo Chavez if you will, a former Officer in the Venezuelan army's special forces back when Venezuela was a reactionary state.

There's not a state right now that isn't reactionary. And not all states are imperialist.

[Killfacer]

someone has to defend us against the damn Russians when they invade europe.

[Dros]

Stalin was a genius (waiting for your argument here :lol:.).

That might be a slight overstatement. But only slight!:laugh:

[freakazoid]

This little Eichmann

ROFL.


What ever skills he will learn can not realisticaly at this time be applied to socialist struggle and is worthy of the implications that arise from joining an imperialist institution.

They can be used now, and are you suggesting that we learn these skills after they are needed? Do you not think it is important to have the skills before they are needed?


My point is that revolutionary leftists do not join imperialist armies!.

Woody Guthrie joined during WW2.


On the other hand, choosing to serve the system in the most blatant fashion is not the only alternative - nor is it one I support.

One can choose to serve the system for your own ends. People can join for many reasons. Now if one was to join because they felt some duty or love for there country or something like that then that is different.


For no one does one have to become trained to be a mindless killing machine and be ordered to shoot foreign people to survive.

Not everyone is given a gun and told to go fight. And you don't turn into a mindless killing machine, you can still think for yourself.


By practicing on brown people.

No, they train them not to think about the fact that those brown people are actually people

Would you guys stop calling them "brown people". It is starting to sounds really insulting and duragatory..


Also, aren't you the guy who supported bombing police cars? And now you're defending the military? That's awesome. http://www.revleft.com/vb/enlist-tomorrow-t87282/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif

lol. I'm not defending the military. If he wanted to sabotage the ship while he is on it then more power to him, :) I am defending his decision to join. You can use the system just as much as it can use you.

Some of you people seem to be thinking that once he joins he is going to turn into a mindless autonomon, he will still be himself. You can join and still not believe in the purpose of the military.

[Dros]

Woody Guthrie joined during WW2.

Did you just use Woody Guthrie as an example of a revolutionary leftist?!?!?

[Decolonize The Left]

Before I respond, can you please site the people you are quoting instead of having one unrelated quote followed by another - it's hard to read and know to whom you're talking.



Not everyone is given a gun and told to go fight. And you don't turn into a mindless killing machine, you can still think for yourself.

Every member of the military is trained to be a machine - to fill a role. You may not be given a gun and told to shoot someone, but you are helping the person who is given a gun and told to shoot someone do that better.


Would you guys stop calling them "brown people". It is starting to sounds really insulting and duragatory..

Sorry, but aside from a generalization it's fairly true. If you don't like the reality that we tend to bomb, main, murder, pillage, and destroy the cities, towns, villages, and states of people with brown skin and rarely those with white skin, then you are denying reality.


Some of you people seem to be thinking that once he joins he is going to turn into a mindless autonomon, he will still be himself. You can join and still not believe in the purpose of the military.

You greatly underestimate and discount the realities of the military and war.

- August

[pusher robot]

Nonsense. They also serve, who stand and wait. :lol:
Ah, Brother Tom -

Help us to save free conscience from the paw Of hireling wolves, whose Gospel is their maw.

[redSHARP]

good luck and good health

dont care what you do really, but be careful

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Reamber port = right starboard = left



also give us updates so we can feel full of ourselves when it sucks.

[Forward Union]

"elite British army"? You really should stop watching those recruitment videos - it's obvious that Army propaganda is damaging to the critical faculties.

Or did you not notice the "elite" British army has failed to crush the Iraqi insurgency?

It is elite. The regular British army hires approx 100,000 staff. That is phenominally tiny. Especially when you consider the US army has 1,055,000! That doesn't mean that Elite armies can't be defeated by popular resistance, they can be. And rightly so. But the British Army is more than capable of liquidating most conventional militaries, even ones much bigger than itself.

Im not calling it Elite as a compliment, I just think it's an effective description.


No tactics are required on the part of the working class - save simply refusing to work for the ruling class. Without support from the civilian sector, and even assuming that none of the soldiers defect/shoot their officers/whatever, the armed forces will quickly collapse.

Yes because that's what's allways happened. Apart from the fact that it's never happened.

Large sections of the armies have mutinied and shot officers, but that's when the militaries were bloated bodies of conscripts from ww1. Now it 's very different. I would project less that 1% of the armed forces disserting in a revolution. And the capitalists would militarise the regions they ran and turn the entire economy into a war economy to crush us. Despite mass-support for the communists in Russia, the whites managed to carry out a lengthy, bloody civil war.

[Baconator]

I think you made the wrong choice. Clearly there are some psychological issues you might want to consider dealing with regarding your relationships to your family and friends. To actually want to be a hired mercenary for a band of thugs is quite disturbing.

I would encourage you to rethink your decision but its your life and you may, unfortunately, live it as a fool.

Hopefully you won't take this the wrong way.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It is elite. The regular British army hires approx 100,000 staff. That is phenominally tiny. Especially when you consider the US army has 1,055,000! That doesn't mean that Elite armies can't be defeated by popular resistance, they can be. And rightly so. But the British Army is more than capable of liquidating most conventional militaries, even ones much bigger than itself.

Im not calling it Elite as a compliment, I just think it's an effective description.

"Tiny" does not necessarily mean "elite". It could just be tiny. Or it could be chronically under-manned, which isn't surprising considering that the UK government has a habit of acting as the little puppy to the US's big dog.

The army of Luxembourg consists of only about 800 personnel. Does that mean that the Army of Luxembourg is "more elite" than the British Army? No. Eliteness is not decided by numbers. "Elite" forces (also known as "special forces") are such due to the high amount of specialised training they recieve.


Yes because that's what's allways happened. Apart from the fact that it's never happened.

Large sections of the armies have mutinied and shot officers, but that's when the militaries were bloated bodies of conscripts from ww1. Now it 's very different. I would project less that 1% of the armed forces disserting in a revolution. And the capitalists would militarise the regions they ran and turn the entire economy into a war economy to crush us. Despite mass-support for the communists in Russia, the whites managed to carry out a lengthy, bloody civil war.How is the ruling class expected to militarise large sections of the economy with the comparitively tiny armed forces they possess? Also note that advanced technology will be of no help here - occupying factories etc takes men on the ground - you can't run a production line with a bunker buster missile, you can only destroy it.

[Killfacer]

UK army is way better than your bunch of gun ho red neck fuckwitts.

[Dros]

UK army is way better than your bunch of gun ho red neck fuckwitts.

That's not the way it went down in 1776!

/\/\/\
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That was the most nationalistic thing I've ever said. And it was also a joke. Don't come after me...

[Killfacer]

Britain lost for the same reason we are both getting fucked up in Iraq; the entire population hates us. Red coats were still the greatest fighting force on earth; by a long shot.

There was also the small matter of our arch enemies the crapauds getting involved.

:p

[Bud Struggle]

That's not the way it went down in 1776!

/\/\/\
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That was the most nationalistic thing I've ever said. And it was also a joke. Don't come after me...


I had to look twice to make sure it was you that said it. :laugh:

[JimmyJazz]

lol. I'm not defending the military. If he wanted to sabotage the ship while he is on it then more power to him, :) I am defending his decision to join. You can use the system just as much as it can use you.

Well obviously, but do you have any reason to believe the op is planning on "using the system" to radical ends? Considering he's restricted I wouldn't just assume that he is. He says he's "Democratic-Left (http://www.revleft.com/vb/restricted-lefties-tread-t86690/index.html?p=1218608#post1218608)".

[Bud Struggle]

Well obviously, but do you have any reason to believe the op is planning on "using the system" to radical ends? Considering he's restricted I wouldn't just assume that he is. He says he's "Democratic-Left (http://www.revleft.com/vb/restricted-lefties-tread-t86690/index.html?p=1218608#post1218608)".

Why is being democatic left a restrictable offense? Are they specificly against the Revolution?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

UK army is way better than your bunch of gun ho red neck fuckwitts.
I'd welcome you back into Ireland any day. We belong to the EMPIRE!

[Forward Union]

"Tiny" does not necessarily mean "elite". It could just be tiny

But the Uk army isn't just tiny is it?


How is the ruling class expected to militarise large sections of the economy with the comparitively tiny armed forces they possess?

Police and foreign millitary intervention.

[Jazzratt]

But the Uk army isn't just tiny is it?

Well, according to you it is:


It is elite. The regular British army hires approx 100,000 staff. That is phenominally tiny.


Police and foreign millitary intervention.

Read the question, NoXion was asking how it would be achieved with a small military presence so "military intervention" is a complete non-answer.

[Forward Union]

Well, according to you it is:

I never said it wasn't small. I said it wasn't just small. It clearly is elite. The SAS is the most elite force in the world, they train the Navy Seals.

The UK's small army is capable of some pretty hefty damage (see; Fauklands war)

It is an incredibly effective killing machine, despite it's size.


Read the question, NoXion was asking how it would be achieved with a small military presence so "military intervention" is a complete non-answer.

It couldn't be achieved by a small millitary presense. But my postulation would be that rather than surrender as a result of this fact, the ruling class would organise the arrival of more troops?

[Phalanx]

I'd welcome you back into Ireland any day. We belong to the EMPIRE!

I hope you're joking.

[RedAnarchist]

I hope you're joking.

Its obviously a sarcastic comment.

[Killfacer]

last time we were in ireland, you got a bit angry. Don't know why, we were just defending people.

Or are you referring to the time before that when we subjugated you and used your population to conquer half the world, bestowing no benefit on you?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Don't get sunk during the revolution.:p

I'll do that.


Anyway what made you want to join the navy?

Not getting shot at.


Patriotism or the money?

Money, education, and travel.


Have you already gone to MEPs and signed in? You haven't done your physical yet? Have fun at the underwear Olympics lol, http://www.revleft.com/vb/enlist-tomorrow-t87282/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif


God that was a long fucking day.


First, the navy does kill people. And if you're not physically dropping the bombs, you're still participating in a machine who's sole function is to enforce the will of the US imperial bourgeoisie abroad which sure as hell creates a ton of deaths. Members of the armed services are culpable.


Definitely. The US Navy is what makes it such a badass superpower, because, as Alfred Mann wrote, control of the sea is the single most important thing to great powers because it allows them to project their force all over the world.

Hence why Great Britain and the US were, and are, able to survive on top for so long were as Napoleanic France and Nazi Germany failed after only a few years.


Have fun dying for capitalismhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/enlist-tomorrow-t87282/revleft/smilies/001_tongue.gif


Have fun still waiting for that revolution when I get back.


That is a damned shame. Even so, take care of yourself.


Thank you.


so, you are willing to murder and risk your life in order to protect the ruling class?


Yes, but not because I like the ruling class. I'm getting paid and educated.

Plus, it'll really come in handy when I run for the Senate.


I advice you AbLin to read what RedCeltic has had to say, and, if you are still interested, what redstar2000 has had to say. Basically, joining the Navy isn't a fun thing to do.

I did. I disagree, I need something in my life to get me going away from pot and doing nothing.

Plus, I'm not soing to some bullshit "learn to paint" school. I'm only going to need 35 hours (the basic shit) to complete my BS when I get out, got a $20,000 bonus ($75,000 if I re-enlist), and will move up to E-4 automatically upon leaving A-school where I'll spend my first 2 years. On top of that, I got all this in writing.


Brother Abe, I wish you well on you journeys. Enjoy, learn and grow from your visit to other places and cultures. Your are a good write and a good thinker--if you can, please post about anything of interest that you see.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Stay safe.

Tom


Why thank you Father Tom.

Don't worry, this won't end my involvement here (though it may mean a vacation away of sorts).


A mate of mine totally changed after being in the army for the initial six week period. Before he was a nice guy but now he is one of the most pointlessly violent people you'll meet and seems to suffer from some inferiority complex that makes him feel he has to act overtly aggressive so that we won't walk all over him. It's ashame.

Yeah, I got a friend who's about to go off to Iraq who's stil the same guy, but told me to fuck myself if I wanted to join the army.

The Marines, well, that's a different story. Every one I've ever meet has either been a complete asshole, or, is just a bit off in the head.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I never said it wasn't small. I said it wasn't just small. It clearly is elite. The SAS is the most elite force in the world, they train the Navy Seals.

The UK's small army is capable of some pretty hefty damage (see; Fauklands war)

It is an incredibly effective killing machine, despite it's size.

And if one wants to build up a war economy in one's own nation, especially with a mostly recalcitrant population, then killing people and destroying things is quite simply the wrong tool for the job.

It's a question of "hearts and minds" rather than "the biggest guns".

This where the playing field is considerably more level for revolutionary agitators.


It couldn't be achieved by a small millitary presense. But my postulation would be that rather than surrender as a result of this fact, the ruling class would organise the arrival of more troops?Sure, the UK ruling class could call in the US Army for assistance... assuming that A) the US isn't having problems of it's own B) the US is willing to provide that assistance. If they do call in extra American troops, I see no reason for them not to become legitimate targets of revolutionary violence, along with the scabs and pigs.

[Forward Union]

And if one wants to build up a war economy in one's own nation, especially with a mostly recalcitrant population, then killing people and destroying things is quite simply the wrong tool for the job.

It's a question of "hearts and minds" rather than "the biggest guns".

In a state of open class conflict with a revolutionary army trying to liquidate the previous power relations. Theres a fair bit of both involved.


Sure, the UK ruling class could call in the US Army for assistance... assuming that A) the US isn't having problems of it's own B) the US is willing to provide that assistance. If they do call in extra American troops, I see no reason for them not to become legitimate targets of revolutionary violence, along with the scabs and pigs.

If you think back to the Russian revolution. Pretty much all the worlds developed nations sent troops to Russia to fight the red army. That was while the 1st world war was raging. Even the Germans, suffering heavy losses, with communists taking large sections of the country, and their economy and war machine in a state of imminent collapse managed to send troops to Russia.

Because stopping communism was immediately the most important task. Your ideas seem to lack historical analysis.

Of course all these foreign troops will be legitiamte targets. But what are you going to shoot them with exactly? Theory and pamphlets?

[Jazzratt]

Not getting shot at.

I spend a lot of time not being shot at and I've managed to steer clear from all the armed services.

[freakazoid]

Before I respond, can you please site the people you are quoting instead of having one unrelated quote followed by another - it's hard to read and know to whom you're talking.

I'm sorry. How do you make it show who you the original poster was? When I respond to someone I simply copy and paste the part I wish to respond to and type out a quote box around it. I always try to at least keep them in order.


You may not be given a gun and told to shoot someone, but you are helping the person who is given a gun and told to shoot someone do that better.

So would it also be wrong then to be the cafeteria person then? Since they are also helping the soldier do there job better.


Sorry, but aside from a generalization it's fairly true. If you don't like the reality that we tend to bomb, main, murder, pillage, and destroy the cities, towns, villages, and states of people with brown skin and rarely those with white skin, then you are denying reality.

That is only because not to many white people live over there. It has nothing to do with the color of there skin.


You greatly underestimate and discount the realities of the military and war.

I don't think so.


I spend a lot of time not being shot at and I've managed to steer clear from all the armed services.

I think he meant that part in why he joined the Navy specifically.


God that was a long fucking day.

Tell me about it. Where did you get your physical done?


Plus, I'm not soing to some bullshit "learn to paint" school. I'm only going to need 35 hours (the basic shit) to complete my BS when I get out, got a $20,000 bonus ($75,000 if I re-enlist), and will move up to E-4 automatically upon leaving A-school where I'll spend my first 2 years. On top of that, I got all this in writing.

A-school!? Are you doing the Nuke program?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Tell me about it. Where did you get your physical done?

I was at the Phoenix MEPS.



A-school!? Are you doing the Nuke program?

Yes. Why?

[freakazoid]

Yes. Why?

Well, the Nuke program is what I had used in my example, pretty crazy coinidence. You said that you get $75,000 if you re-enlist for another 4 years, you can also get another $50,000 if you re-enlist for another 2. :thumbup: When do you ship off to bootcamp?

[Sendo]

In a state of open class conflict with a revolutionary army trying to liquidate the previous power relations. Theres a fair bit of both involved.



If you think back to the Russian revolution. Pretty much all the worlds developed nations sent troops to Russia to fight the red army. That was while the 1st world war was raging. Even the Germans, suffering heavy losses, with communists taking large sections of the country, and their economy and war machine in a state of imminent collapse managed to send troops to Russia.

Because stopping communism was immediately the most important task. Your ideas seem to lack historical analysis.

Of course all these foreign troops will be legitiamte targets. But what are you going to shoot them with exactly? Theory and pamphlets?



The Cappie invasion of Bolshevik Russia which helps to understand why the Revolution became what it became in the 1920s, as well as the Spanish Civil War, are two topics you WILL NEVER find in most US high school history textbooks. Not anywhere. It's freaking amazing. Howard Zinn's right. When you get real history you become more discerning of ruling class lies. The whole reason I became leftist is because I realized how fucked the world is, what a lie capitalism is, how capitalism will kill us all with nuclear war or global warming, and what successes leftism has had. After that my political leanings shot far, far left.

With enough time to analyze these events I realize how true Robbin Hoodies' statements are. They at first sound irrational and conspiracy-theory-ish, but then you realize how rational it is. Foreign nations WILL commit troops for the sake of "no good examples". Look at the UK's ridiculous handling of Ireland in the 19th century. More headache than it's worth. But, "What if" the London Parliament asked, "what if India sees Ireland win independence? Do you think they would stand for British control another day. Just look at previous uprisings and the size of their populace. If they realize they could kick us out easily our whole imperial project is fucked." The Us has done the same thing. You can also look at the East Timor deal. Why would the US want to let a tiny, indigenous, and mostly "Free association" country like that exist? It might remind people of other utopian societies that were and could be.

[Killfacer]

To say the cappies invaded bolshevik russia would be to over exaggerate what they did. They milled about for a bit and left.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, the Nuke program is what I had used in my example, pretty crazy coinidence. You said that you get $75,000 if you re-enlist for another 4 years, you can also get another $50,000 if you re-enlist for another 2. :thumbup: When do you ship off to bootcamp?

Mercenaries. :rolleyes:

[Hawk_]

It's a good thing we restricted you.

Enjoy backing up an imperialist, mass murdering country by killing people...

Your lucky you can say that.

Thank you for your service.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Well, the Nuke program is what I had used in my example, pretty crazy coinidence. You said that you get $75,000 if you re-enlist for another 4 years, you can also get another $50,000 if you re-enlist for another 2. :thumbup: When do you ship off to bootcamp?

That's suh-weet :lol:

Another cool thing is I'll only need my Associates to get my Bachelors after I get out. I've heard plenty of English Lit majors, and related, complaining about the job market. I'm not too worried.

I ship out February, at the earliest. I could go earlier, but that would mean a smaller bonus. I'm not that much of a patriot. :rolleyes:

[Dros]

Your lucky you can say that.

Well, freedom of speech is included in your precious constitution, is it not? Or is it just there when it's the speech you like?

To the OP: No thank you for your service.

[pusher robot]

Well, freedom of speech is included in your precious constitution, is it not? Or is it just there when it's the speech you like?

To the OP: No thank you for your service.

The Constitution is a scrap of parchment. It only has meaning because some people are willing to fight to give it meaning.

[Decolonize The Left]

The Constitution is a scrap of parchment. It only has meaning because some people are willing to fight to give it meaning.

What do you mean by "fight to give it meaning?"

If by this you mean joining the armed forces and furthering US imperialism and oppression, then you are sorely deluded.

- August

[Dros]

The Constitution is a scrap of parchment. It only has meaning because some people are willing to fight to give it meaning.

...

and?

Does the constitution, or does it not, grant free speech? Do the people who "fight to give it meaning" get to be sole arbiters of what the constitution is? I thought that the constitution gave that responsibility to the courts not the people who fight for it.

And in case you're curious, the courts have agreed with me time and time again.

[Bud Struggle]

...

and?

Does the constitution, or does it not, grant free speech? Do the people who "fight to give it meaning" get to be sole arbiters of what the constitution is? I thought that the constitution gave that responsibility to the courts not the people who fight for it.

And in case you're curious, the courts have agreed with me time and time again.

Do you think I'm going to have similar rights to say what I want after the Revolution? "Wouldn't it be great If I could own a factory!" "Communism sucks--I want cash!" "Enough with this Ararchism, I wanna be the boss!"

:)

[apathy maybe]

...

and?

Does the constitution, or does it not, grant free speech? Do the people who "fight to give it meaning" get to be sole arbiters of what the constitution is? I thought that the constitution gave that responsibility to the courts not the people who fight for it.

And in case you're curious, the courts have agreed with me time and time again.

No it doesn't grant free speech. Theoretically, you get free speech simply by existing (if you believe in natural rights). The constitution merely lists some of these inalienable natural rights that every one has.

(No, I'm not a yank, I just now a little bit about the crappy system they have.)

[Dros]

No it doesn't grant free speech. Theoretically, you get free speech simply by existing (if you believe in natural rights). The constitution merely lists some of these inalienable natural rights that every one has.

(No, I'm not a yank, I just now a little bit about the crappy system they have.)

Natural rights or not, free speech would not exist in this country to the small extent that it does (and it is a very small extent) if the constitution didn't protect it. In that sense, the constitution grants free speech.

[Dust Bunnies]

Having soldiers setting up a puppet regime in Iraq does not further our freedom of speech, it only restricted our freedom of speech with things like the Patriot Act.

[pusher robot]

Natural rights or not, free speech would not exist in this country to the small extent that it does (and it is a very small extent) if the constitution didn't protect it. In that sense, the constitution grants free speech.

But the Constitution does not protect it except in a very general way. Specifically, people - people who have agreed to enforce the Constitution - protect it. They protect it through their arguments, their labor, and sometimes, with their willingness to brook violence to its offenders. Without those people, the Constitution would be utterly insignificant.


Having soldiers setting up a puppet regime in Iraq does not further our freedom of speech, it only restricted our freedom of speech with things like the Patriot Act.

What does Iraq have to do with the Patriot Act?!?

[Dust Bunnies]

But the Constitution does not protect it except in a very general way. Specifically, people - people who have agreed to enforce the Constitution - protect it. They protect it through their arguments, their labor, and sometimes, with their willingness to brook violence to its offenders. Without those people, the Constitution would be utterly insignificant.



What does Iraq have to do with the Patriot Act?!?

Sorry, misworded that, but we are losing freedom at the same time as we set up a puppet regime. If there is a war on terror then how about the terror our government put on Iraqi civilians?

[freakazoid]

Natural rights or not, free speech would not exist in this country to the small extent that it does (and it is a very small extent) if the constitution didn't protect it. In that sense, the constitution grants free speech.

Oh yeah. That was a big thing when they were creating it, on whether or not they should include a Bill of Rights. Some said that it was needed because otherwise the government could take our natural rights away, and others were against it because they felt that by putting one in that it would limit our rights, which means that we have more than what is even in it.


But the Constitution does not protect it except in a very general way. Specifically, people - people who have agreed to enforce the Constitution - protect it. They protect it through their arguments, their labor, and sometimes, with their willingness to brook violence to its offenders. Without those people, the Constitution would be utterly insignificant.

Did you know that they believed that having a standing army was "the bane of liberty"? So no, it is not because of them that we are to be thankful, it is the hard work of freedom loving people that we are to be thankful for.

[pusher robot]

Did you know that they believed that having a standing army was "the bane of liberty"? So no, it is not because of them that we are to be thankful, it is the hard work of freedom loving people that we are to be thankful for.

Those are the people I'm talking about.

[ahab]

Passed my drug test (:)), did well on my ASVAB, all I got left is a physical.

I had to sign a paper saying I'm aware "Communist Agents" may try and pry info from me via torture and threatening to kill my family :laugh:

Anyway, look for me at a port when our NAVY rolls in...unless your Russian.


haha why did you join the navy?

well good luck be prepared to hate life as you know it, and I hope you like to drink a lot and strippers because thats all you do in your free time. Also I hope you like moppin and cleaning the shit out of everything all day

[Qwerty Dvorak]

The Constitution is a scrap of parchment. It only has meaning because some people are willing to fight to give it meaning.
Ireland is a neutral country and it has a Constitution, which has meaning

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Do you think I'm going to have similar rights to say what I want after the Revolution? "Wouldn't it be great If I could own a factory!" "Communism sucks--I want cash!" "Enough with this Ararchism, I wanna be the boss!"

:)

Ya fuck communism yo.



haha why did you join the navy?

Free education, money, not getting shot at.


well good luck be prepared to hate life as you know it,

Do you honestly think I'd be here debating with a lot of irrelevant adolescents if I liked my life?

Besides, as much as it'll suck, I'm gonna bank when I get out so I'm not worried.


and I hope you like to drink a lot and strippers because thats all you do in your free time. Also I hope you like moppin and cleaning the shit out of everything all day

I do like to drink, and I do like strippers.

I'm probably going to be on a sub, and in one of the most highly trained groups.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Ireland is a neutral country and it has a Constitution, which has meaning

Yes, because your country has its little bubble which, if penetrated, will get powerful big countries to protect that piece of paper for you.

[Plagueround]

Do you think I'm going to have similar rights to say what I want after the Revolution? "Wouldn't it be great If I could own a factory!" "Communism sucks--I want cash!" "Enough with this Ararchism, I wanna be the boss!"

:)

You'll have the freedom to say it, you just won't be able to take these ideas that put profits above the wellbeing of others and put them into practice anymore. :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

you just won't be able to take these ideas that put profits above the wellbeing of others and put them into practice anymore. :lol:

Since I've never done that--I guess life will be much the same. :lol: