Elephants and Mathematics

[Pawn Power]

Elephants have demonstrated the ability to count and thus deserve the right to enroll in a calculus course.

Elephants have a head for figures (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/aug/21/elephants.arithmetic)

"Researchers have shown that the animals can add small numbers of apples to get their trunks on a bigger food prize"

[Dystisis]

Very interesting, and probably more so than people think. I believe awareness of division (of a unity) and the usage of amounts is very much connected to the self-consciousness (or the rise of intelligence, sentience if you will) of species.

I'd say these scientists are probably approaching this from a completely wrong angle (as is not rare) in that they ask "why would they need to count?" Sure, that is a question that probably has an answer which would be fruitful for them and their science needs, but hey.. it's not actually the most interesting question in this context, is it.

[MarxSchmarx]

Good for the elephants.


I believe awareness of division (of a unity) and the usage of amounts is very much connected to the self-consciousness (or the rise of intelligence, sentience if you will) of species.

Elephants also famously mourn their dead. If I had the time and the smarts, I'd investigate the question of how these two processes are related. I do wonder if solitary elephants can develop these capacities, or whether there is something about being a social species that uniquely allows them to develop these sort of reasoning skills.

[mikelepore]

I do wonder if solitary elephants can develop these capacities, or whether there is something about being a social species that uniquely allows them to develop these sort of reasoning skills.

Mammals are more social than other vertebrates, and only the brains of mammals have a layer called the neocortex, which is where people perform higher reasoning.

[MarxSchmarx]

Mammals are more social than other vertebrates, and only the brains of mammals have a layer called the neocortex, which is where people perform higher reasoning.

Would you happen to know if sociality evolved as a result of the neocortex, or if the neocortex evolved in response to sociality?

[mikelepore]

I don't know about that. I wonder if anyone knows.

[Dystisis]

Would you happen to know if sociality evolved as a result of the neocortex, or if the neocortex evolved in response to sociality?
As a guess I would say they probably evolved in relationship with each other. For example (and this may have nothing to do with reality,) because of increased exposure to certain climate some animals had to develop differently to react. Assuming the mind evolved as a result to this, it allowed the animals to go through a slightly different stage of reasoning. Through using this they developed their brain further and became more "socialy aware".

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I'm sorry -- have I missed something, but what evidence is there that elephants can count (as opposed to their being able to discriminate among objects we have counted for them)? The Guardian article does not say.

It seems to me that these researchers are a little naive here -- we'd need to see the original research papers to see what safeguards they built into their trials, and what alternative explanations they considered.

After all, researchers once thought horses could count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

Here is the equivalent 'Guardian' article from 1904:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E02E2D91F3AE733A25757C0A96F9C946597D6CF&oref=slogin

[Dystisis]

I'm sorry -- have I missed something, but what evidence is there that elephants can count (as opposed to their being able to discriminate among objects we have counted for them)? The Guardian article does not say.

It seems to me that these researchers are a little naive here -- we'd need to see the original research papers to see what safeguards they built into their trials, and what alternative explanations they considered.

After all, researchers once thought horses could count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

Here is the equivalent 'Guardian' article from 1904:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E02E2D91F3AE733A25757C0A96F9C946597D6CF&oref=slogin
Haha, you could be right. The elephant probably either is just aware of which bucket has the most apples in them (although I guess that's what the article said, calling it counting is maybe a stretch though,) or it reacts to what the humans express.

What is interesting is if the elephant truly manages to divide groups of apples and apply value "1" to each apple... F.ex. if we put 2 apples in one bucket, then 4 apples in the other, and finally 3 apples in the first (so it would be 5 in one and 4 in the other), the elephant would know which has most... However, the elephant could still make the right choice f.ex. out of pure estimation of mass/weight that is dropped into either bucket.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, over the years I have learnt to be sceptical of all such claims.

[Scourge]

Well, over the years I have learnt to be sceptical of all such claims.

So have I. How do we know the elephant didn't just choose the bucket that had the last apple drop in, regardless of prior drops? A 74% success rate isn't very convincing. Shouldn't it be perfect? If it developed from keeping track of the herd, 26% of the time, an elephant might be missing!

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, as I said, we need to know what safeguards were built into these 'experiments' to filter out the things you say, and the unconscious prompts and hints that an elephant might be picking up from its handler, as happened with 'Clever Hans'. Scientists normally do this with double blind trials, and other techniques.

Of course, for humans counting is connected not just with our number system but also with our ability to do things with objects of the same sort. So, if we could find an elephant that could collect groups of objects of the same sort with its trunk and then order them in terms of their size (or whatever), unaided by a human handler, we might have hit on something.

As far as I know, no animal has ever been shown to be able to do things like this with objects of the same sort.