Doctor vs Garbage Man

[Pete]

This is just a debate taht always springs up at my school when we discuss communism....
Who is more impoartant the doctor or the garbage man?

I vote the Garbage man, since he reduces the need and strain on doctors. If we had no garbage men their woudl be pandemics everywhere. They keep us from living in our own filth. Doctors would be overloaded and ineffective with no garbagemen.

[EnvelopedInFear]

How old are you, btw?

Anyway, it seems to me that you're saying Garbage man for the sake of argument.

[Comrade Trave]

GARBAGE MAN VS. DOCTOR... i would have to go with the doctor cause he gets paid a lot more and i would rather have many doctors than a bunch of garbagemen.

[Anonymous]

Of course the garbage man, in a purely utlilitarian sense, is better for society. However, when it comes to knowledge and skill, and the ability to pass these skills to the next generation, doctors will always be far superior. Not to mention that without the doctors, who would deliver the babies that would eventually become garbagemen? And, who would cure the garabageman of illness when he is sick? In reality, both are dependent on each other. But, the doctor will always be superior to the garbageman because of his higher level of knowledge and wisdom.


This reminded me of a passage from Aristotle's Metaphysics (http://www.non-contradiction.com/ac_works_b25.asp).


"But yet we think that knowledge and understanding belong to art rather than to experience, and we suppose artists to be wiser than men of experience (which implies that Wisdom depends in all cases rather on knowledge); and this because the former know the cause, but the latter do not. For men of experience know that the thing is so, but do not know why, while the others know the 'why' and the cause. Hence we think also that the masterworkers in each craft are more honourable and know in a truer sense and are wiser than the manual workers, because they know the causes of the things that are done (we think the manual workers are like certain lifeless things which act indeed, but act without knowing what they do, as fire burns,-but while the lifeless things perform each of their functions by a natural tendency, the labourers perform them through habit); thus we view them as being wiser not in virtue of being able to act, but of having the theory for themselves and knowing the causes. And in general it is a sign of the man who knows and of the man who does not know, that the former can teach, and therefore we think art more truly knowledge than experience is; for artists can teach, and men of mere experience cannot."

[Pete]

I am 17, picked the garbage man for arguement, and because of what I said. Dark Capitalist, I am sure what you posted was jolly, but I am too damn tired to read those italics ;) I like you reply though. You can extrapolate to say everyone in a community is interdependant on eachother, therefore allowing one to barely scrape by and starve while another enjoys many luxuries. Okay I read that quote. It is a very good quote. Amazing I must say. Fits into what I was just saying. Knowlede should be shared, as food should be, equally so all may prosper.

[HankMorgan]

Let the market decide.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Besides, with HMO's the way they are, the GAP between a doctor's salary and a sanitation engineer's salary is narrowing. (Sanitation engineers actually make pretty good $$$).

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:42 pm on Mar. 9, 2003
Besides, with HMO's the way they are, the GAP between a doctor's salary and a sanitation engineer's salary is narrowing. (Sanitation engineers actually make pretty good $$$).

you know what CI, this reminds me of the person i sit next to in chemistry saying he wanted to be a garbageman working for NASA (a space garbageman) because they get paid loads for not much work.

[redstar2000]

Crazy Pete, you made the right choice and for the right reason.

The history of disease shows very clearly that the implementation of modern sanitation practices in the 19th century sharply decreased mortality prior to the advances we associate with modern medicine.

The argument raised by Aristotle is nonsense, of course. Once you know how to perform a useful task, the "why it works the way it does" is irrelevant. You don't need a theoretical knowledge of physiology to take a pill; you don't need to know how to build an airplane in order to learn how to fly one...or buy a ticket. The notion of a "hierarchy of knowledge" was common in Aristotle's time...but it doesn't really stand up. And if it did stand up, it would have to be reversed: how to do it is more important than theory...if you actually want to get it done.

"without doctors, who would deliver the babies...?" :cheesy: DC, women delivered babies without doctors for several hundred thousand years! I think they could still figure it out, don't you?

"...he wanted to be a garbageman working for NASA (a space garbageman) because they get paid loads for not much work."

But the commute is a real bastard! :cheesy:

:cool:

[EnvelopedInFear]

Sanitation could still exist without garbagemen. People know enough to load their trash in bags and drive it somewhere far away from them. People do not know, however, how to cure diseases and give medicine prescribtions.

(Edited by EnvelopedInFear at 5:42 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)

[Moskitto]

"without doctors, who would deliver the babies...?" DC, women delivered babies without doctors for several hundred thousand years! I think they could still figure it out, don't you?

some health organization now recomends women walk around rather than lying down when they give birth because "the western method of giving birth causes too much discomfort for women."

[DeadBoss]

I vote for red-hair women (preferably not pregnant) for they are most important..

as for the doctors and the rubbish I think that best would be to get rid of the politicians who think that are doctors but in fact they are rubbish!

[canikickit]

Both are equally important, valuable and neccessary for today's society.

A doctor might be more intelligent, but so what? As individuals there "importance" can vary, but with regards to the job they do and the part they play there can be no discrimination.


I vote the Garbage man, since he reduces the need and strain on doctors. If we had no garbage men their woudl be pandemics everywhere

There is pandemics as it is, and without doctors none of these people would be in the more positive situation they are in now.

[Capitalist Imperial]

If you apply classic capitalist supply-side theory, doctors are more important, simply because they are harder/more expensive to come by, as it takes greater monetary and intellectual investment to yield a doctor. Thus, supplies of doctor's services are at a premium.

On the other hand, almost anyone can be a sanitation engineer.

So, while both of the jobs themselves are needed (and I mean the jobs exclusively), the doctor as an individual is worth more than the garbageman economicaly, which in capitalist society is somewwhat a measure of importance.

[Political Suicide]

As Cani said, they are both equally important. In different ways. They both contribute different things to society, on different scales. You can't really say one is more important then the other. Without doctors and with garbage men, people would be dieing left and right because there would be no one who knew what they were doing, medically. Without garbage men, and with doctors, there would be wayyy too much disease for doctors to deal with. And people could not deal with disposing of garbage on there own. Perhaps the actual garbage men's job is not that hard, but the process (where it goes, when its picked up, and all that rubbish) can become rather complicated especially in modern times when the human race is producing an amazing amount of garbage.

[Pete]

*In an unimcumbered state of mind*

"Sanitation could still exist without garbagemen. People know enough to load their trash in bags and drive it somewhere far away from them. People do not know, however, how to cure diseases and give medicine prescribtions. "

Did you see Toronto last summer? The garabemen went on strike. No one did a thing bout the garbage gathering in the City until the pope was about to show up and the garbage men where legislated back to work.

Mid wifes can solve the prescription problem, and they also give birth. Herbs do work. Ever been really sick with a bad cough? Cough syrup works temporaily. Drink ginger tea (boil the hell out of ginger root) and you have a cure that actually works for like what ten cents a drink? 15 cents if you add honey or sugar.

[redstar2000]

CI, I thought you of all people would understand that the reason that doctor's services are so expensive is that an artificial shortage has been created. If everyone were free to enter medical school who wanted to, the number of doctors would increase rapidly and their "market value" would fall sharply.

It was during the early years of the 20th century that medical associations succeeded in gaining state recognition...you could no longer practice medicine "without a license". And those licenses are really hard to get.

But the knowledge is actually not that difficult to obtain for one who is seriously interested. Anyone can purchase a med-school text book or a scientific medical journal...and learn what your doctor knows, or more. I've actually heard that when some people get sick, they consult the internet first. Things are changing.

Doctors will probably always enjoy considerable prestige...but excessive compensation may not go along with that.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 9:33 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)