For Just Joe - Juche

[Saint-Just]

To sum up Juche in one paragraph for Just Joe:

Juche is the desire for a homogenous society, with the single ideology of socialism. A society in which the single class can develop and shape society as they will. The society consists of a vanguard working class party, its leader and the masses. The Party and the leader serve their class to bring forth the policies of working class interest. The party seeks to politicise the entirety of society to create a productive and progressive society. The masses create society to serve their interests, socialism is the system that is in the interests of the masses. It creates a society where every man is equal, a nation amongst which every nation is equal.


I am a Marxist-Leninist, I study Juche because it is interesting. Juche is Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il writing about Marxism-Leninism, in a similar way to which Mao etc. did.

These are some quotes for you Just Joe, to broaden your concept of Juche:

'The Juche idea is a new philosophical thought which centres on man. As the leader said, the Juche idea is based on the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything. The Juche idea raised the fundamental question of philosophy by regarding man as the main factor, and elucidated the philosophical principle that man is the master of everything and decides everything.'

'Man was already outstanding as he emerged from the world of nature. He exists and develops by cognizing and changing the world to make it serve him, whereas all other material lives maintain their existence through their subordination and adaptation to the objective world.'

'Man is the most precious being in the world, and his interests are more valuable than any others in the world. Everything in the world has its value only when it serves man.'

‘In accordance with the line of building a mass party, our party enlisted into itself many progressive elements from among workers, peasants and working intellectuals and properly combined the quantitative growth and qualitative consolidation of the party ranks. Thus it continually expanded and strengthened itself while firmly maintaining its working-class and revolutionary character. Our party was built as a mass party and the mass line was fully implemented in its activity. As a result, it has strengthened and developed into a party that defends and represents the working masses' demand for independence and their interest, into a revolutionary party of the working class rooted among the broad popular masses and inseparably united with them.’

‘Since national liberation through a bloody revolutionary war against the Japanese, our revolution has advanced through unprecedentedly complex situation and arduous struggle. The division of the country by foreign forces, the fatherland liberation war against the invasion of the allied forces of imperialism, the ceaseless maneuvers for aggression and sabotage by imperialism, the turbulent international situation and the collapse of socialism in several countries, and the subsequent intensification of anti-socialist, anti-DPRK machinations by imperialists and reactionaries--in the face of these events, we carried out the two stages of social revolution successfully, reconstructed the country twice, and built the socialism centered on the masses and added luster to our socialism while defending staunchly the sovereignty of the country and the achievements of the revolution. The revolution and construction have been promoted with vigor even in spite of the innumerable difficulties and hardships, bringing great changes in all lives of the country and people.’

‘Our socialism defends and ensures the independence of the popular masses and satisfies their demand for independence to the full. All the members of society exercise equal rights to independence in the political, economic and cultural lives and enjoy valuable and worthwhile lives free from all manner of social unrest and worry about life. Our society is the most stable and durable society in which all the people are united single-heartedly around the party and leader and have formed a great harmonious family, and the whole society is overflowing with feelings of health and vivacity and revolutionary mettle. The communist morality of devoting oneself to society and the collective and helping and leading one another in a comradely way, now being displayed to a high degree among our people, demonstrates the advantages and might of the socialist system of our country and graphically shows the ennobling ideological and spiritual traits of our people.’

‘We must fully implement the Chongsanri spirit and Chongsanri method created by Comrade Kim Il Sung and hold high as ever the party's slogan, "let the whole party go among the masses !" all the officials must acquire more firmly the revolutionary and popular style of work; they should always go deep among the masses, share weal and woe with them, teach and learn from them and execute the revolutionary tasks by giving rein to their revolutionary enthusiasm and creative zeal. We must resolutely oppose and reject abuse of power, bureaucracy, irregularity and corruption among officials and ensure that they acquire modest and unceremonious traits and establish a frugal and upright way of life.’

'The subject of history is the working masses, not the reactionary exploiting classes. The working masses carve out and develop history, but the exploiting classes try to arrest and turn back the historical advance. All exploiting classes, after all, constitute a reaction against history; they are the target of revolution. The whole course of the existence of class societies has been a history of sharp struggles between the creators of history and reaction against history between the masters of revolution and the targets of revolution, that is, between the working masses and the reactionary exploiting classes. Society has advanced and developed through these struggles.'

'Only by seizing state power and the means of production in their own hands and by establishing a socialist system can the working masses free themselves from exploitation and oppression and create history consciously as true masters of society and their own destiny.'

'The process of development of a socialist society under the leadership of the working class is the process of working-classizing the whole society. When the whole society is reshaped completely on the pattern of the advanced working class under its leadership'

'The struggle to transform nature is an effort of the masses to create material conditions for an independent life, free from the bitters of nature. If people are to live and make progress. they must work to harness nature and produce material wealth. Only through the transformation and conquest of nature can they free themselves from its fetters and prepare material conditions for an independent life.'

'At the dawn of human society, people's creative power was weak, and their ideological and cultural levels were very low. By their age-long hard-fought struggles the masses have increased their ability to conquer nature, enriched their knowledge, developed the productive forces, and steadily raised the levels of their ideological consciousness and culture. Modern science and technology, progressive ideas and culture which have been developed by human society, are without exception the result of the historical struggles of the popular masses.'

'The age-long ceaseless struggle of the masses for Chajusong can win its ultimate aim by building socialism and communism. The struggle for socialism and communism is the highest stage of the struggle for Chajusong. It is a struggle to end once and for all the exploitation of man by man, the oppression of class by class, and the domination of state by state in human society, to wipe out all remnants of old societies handed down through history, and to finally free the people from their shackles. In a communist society the masses of the people will lead a completely independent life as masters of nature and society and as true masters of their own destiny. '

'Capitalism subordinates even man�fs thinking and action to money considerations, but socialism and communism make the masses of the people true masters of society, and therefore, give full play to the revolutionary enthusiasm and creative zeal of the masses.'

'[Juche is]The idea that man is the master of everything and decides everything, in other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny and is the transformer of the world and the shaper of his destiny, is fundamentally opposed to idealism and metaphysics. Idealism leads to mystical theory that the world and man's destiny are controlled by the supernatural "might", while metaphysics leads to the fatalistic belief that everything in the world is immutable and, accordingly, man must be obedient to his predetermined destiny. The idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny and is able to transform the world and shape his destiny, is based on the premise of the materialistic and dialectical viewpoint which denies mysticism and fatalism.'


To summarise some things, very simply:

-Juche created the view of a man centred world; the being of man having created society, a society dictated by the concepts man created, and not by nature. Man had the power to change society and develop it. The reactionary class in society, the ruling class, deny the masses this cause. They deny the progression to socialism of society. Socialism being the utmost progression of man.

-To achieve this progression the masses must realise their independence and creativity by seizing the means of production and then ‘working classizing’ the whole of society.

-A working class party must exist and operate amongst its class, the working class.


On your view that the Kims are worshipped as god-like figures Just Joe, go to this link: http://www.kdvr.de/english/dictator.html


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:58 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)

[Just Joe]

thanks again Mao.

in practice, i don't really support North Korea. i don't know much about the situation there (like anyone) but it doesn't look good to me. but the more i read about the Juche ideology, the more i like it. the Korean struggle with Japanese imperialism is very similar to the Irish struggle against British imperialism and thats why i think it appeals to me.

we'll see what happens.

you ever been to North Korea? or known anyone whos gone?

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Just Joe on 11:06 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
thanks again Mao.

in practice, i don't really support North Korea. i don't know much about the situation there (like anyone) but it doesn't look good to me. but the more i read about the Juche ideology, the more i like it. the Korean struggle with Japanese imperialism is very similar to the Irish struggle against British imperialism and thats why i think it appeals to me.

we'll see what happens.

you ever been to North Korea? or known anyone whos gone?

Like Ireland, the DPRK has been greatly stifled by a foreign power, thats why situation can sometimes be regarded as undesirable economically. Largely though, a great many lied are put towards the DPRK, what is needed is realisation of the bourgeois agenda and their constand defamation of other nations.

I have not yet been to the DPRK; I will go in a few years. I know many people who have frequently visited since the 80's. They are amazed at the megalopolis - Pyongyang. Amazed at the people there and the system of society. I have some works and leaflets from the DPRK. Museum guides, mass gymnastic programs and so on. Many of the pictures are truly beautiful.

[thursday night]

“Juche created the view of a man centred world; the being of man having created society, a society dictated by the concepts man created, and not by nature.”

I disagree, I believe humanity is always at the very whims of nature and thus it is one of our greatest goals to protect it. But this is the extreme environmentalist in me talking. ;)

It seems to me that Juche is basically just Marxism-Leninism (the ideology that, as you know Comrade Mao, I generally follow). The one cornerstone that is essential to Juche I believe is ‘self-reliance,’ and I have a few qualms with this, as I believe that it is a fundamental mistake in many ways. For instance, why separate your socialist state from the greater socialist powers (at the time the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China) so much when you can receive economic aid and build a great infrastructure, as Cuba and the Socialist Bloc. did?

Also, are the rumours that Pyongyang is an extremely selective city where only those who are of high respect are allowed to dwell bourgeoisie lies put forth by the Western media machine?

[Xvall]

I think Juche is an interesting concept; but I think I'm a little too much of an environmentalist to become an avid supporter of it. After all, the environment is nececarry for us to live, is it not?

[redstar2000]

"Juche" is Korean for Confucianism.

The central idea of Confucius is that "right conduct by the ruler leads to a harmonious society."

The ruler is key; thus, the father and the son are both praised to the skies in the sincere belief that this will create social harmony.

That this Confucian idealism is dressed in the garments of Marxist materialism is...unfortunate. From time to time, it misleads people.

"Man is the master of all things"? Actually, that's a direct repudiation of material reality. Try "mastering" your need for oxygen...you'll last about 4 minutes.

True, we can do a lot to "master" nature...but only in accord with nature's "laws" as best we can grasp them. It's appropriate that the pictorial symbol of "Juche" is a "flying horse"...an animal that cannot exist on a planet as massive as ours. By the end of this century, it might indeed be possible to genetically engineer such a creature into existence...but it would not be able to get off the ground.

"Juche" is an example of a larger 20th century phenomenon. What happens when pre-capitalist societies try to "creatively apply" Marxism in their countries? What is Marxism in words becomes an ideology more suited to the real class situation in practice...a situation in which the working class, being small and weak, plays hardly any role at all.

Pol Pot made "Marxism" into a murderous drama of peasant revenge on decadent urbanites. Mao became a great "reforming emperor" in accordance with Chinese traditions. In Korea, a "Marxist dynasty" has been created; it is far closer to Korean royal tradition than say, the Paris Commune or the Russian Soviets.

What all such countries do, to the extent that they "modernize" at all, is simply create the material preconditions for the emergence of capitalism. In North Korea, the first "free trade zones" are already on the drawing board...we know where they're going with that.

It's easy for us in the advanced capitalist countries to be "western-centric"...to forget that most of the people in the world today are still peasants. To them, the escape from feudal or semi-feudal oppression is the first priority...and if "Marxism" offers such an escape, they'll gladly embrace the terminology without the slightest interest in what Marxism really is.

And they get what they want...but not in the form they anticipated. Agrarian reform leads to the emergence of "successful peasants"...who become merchants...who become capitalists. The use of "Marxism" can elevate this to the level of government policy...foreign trade starts out as desirable and becomes indispensable; those who are "good" at it draw appropriate (capitalist) conclusions. Since Marx was right, class realities prevail.

The presence of imperialism complicates our view; we see any resistance to imperialism as being somehow progressive. To the extent that such resistance undermines imperialism, that is a valid observation.

But we shouldn't let that complication obscure the underlying class realities; Marxism that doesn't derive from a developed working class is no more possible than a steam-powered railroad in 12th century England.

:cool:

[thursday night]

I'll let Mao reply in defense of the DPRK.

[Saint-Just]

'I disagree, I believe humanity is always at the very whims of nature and thus it is one of our greatest goals to protect it. But this is the extreme environmentalist in me talking.' thursday night

Humanity can undoubtedly alter nature, the power of technology and science are proof of this. These are only quotes, so I can understand how you can fail to see the whole picture of Juche. Kim Il Jong elucidates that nature does affect human beings, but that ultimately the progression fo humanity relies on humans developing their power to use nature to serve them.

Kim Il Jong does not suggest we destroy the environment or any such things, indeed in the DPRK there are many nature reserves and so forth to protect certain areas. 70% of the countries power used to be obtained from hydro electricity, largely due to the fact that it is so mountaneous.

'It seems to me that Juche is basically just Marxism-Leninism (the ideology that, as you know Comrade Mao, I generally follow). The one cornerstone that is essential to Juche I believe is ‘self-reliance,’ and I have a few qualms with this, as I believe that it is a fundamental mistake in many ways. For instance, why separate your socialist state from the greater socialist powers (at the time the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China) so much when you can receive economic aid and build a great infrastructure, as Cuba and the Socialist Bloc. did?'

Again, you need to see the entire picture of Juche. Juche advocates self-reliance, only in so far as a country should try to be dependant as possible on itself, and maintain a strong army and economy to the best it can. As to avoid being dictated by a larger power. The DPRK did receive great help from the Soviet Union and the PRC, however it is a testament to its self-reliance that after the fall of the USSR and the death of Mao Zedong it has maintained socialism. The DPRK formed many trade alliances particularly with the GDR, USSR and PRC. That did help industrialise and construct socialism. What this self-reliance is against is countries who become dependant on U.S. imperialism, e.g. South Korea, who although have a strong economy, they had a U.S. appointed government and to this day rely on U.S. help to the point where the U.S. can impose National Security laws and operate a military presence in the country whilst dictating the economy, and still the government is highly pro-U.S. due to the influence. The North thinks that the South should have rejected U.S. help because there are so many strings attached.

'Also, are the rumours that Pyongyang is an extremely selective city where only those who are of high respect are allowed to dwell bourgeoisie lies put forth by the Western media machine?'

Pyongyang is not selective, however no one can simply choose to move there. There are controls on the movement of the population. Pyongyang is a city of around 2.5 million, many people of different walks of like live and work there, from factory workers to office workers and so on. There is indeed a higher standard of living in Pyongyany, this is because Korean infrasctructure is shot due to years of blocade and freak weather conditions. It has become more difficult to transport, provide electricity and food to areas outside large cities. The government does do the utmost it can to get food to rural areas, but is simply incapable of being able to do it to the standard that is required.


"Man is the master of all things"? Actually, that's a direct repudiation of material reality. Try "mastering" your need for oxygen...you'll last about 4 minutes.' redstar2000

We do rely on nature, and Juche in other works says that early man was shaped by nature, but progresses through the creation of society, a construct that relies on human relationships and is not dictated by nature. Through societal relationships man developes, and learns to use nature to serve society; technology and so forth. If you reject this, you do advocate materialism but rather metamorphism, the study of being that we cannot ever hope to influence nature and rather nature shapes us and our destiny.

'True, we can do a lot to "master" nature...but only in accord with nature's "laws" as best we can grasp them. It's appropriate that the pictorial symbol of "Juche" is a "flying horse"...an animal that cannot exist on a planet as massive as ours. By the end of this century, it might indeed be possible to genetically engineer such a creature into existence...but it would not be able to get off the ground.'

Juche never says we cannot do anything outside the laws of nature, again it is difficult to understand as these are only a few quotes. Man can graps nature's laws, and with them he can dictatate to nature and shape it as he wills, he cannot do everything he wants, at the moment. Yet, as time goes on we become more adept masters of nature.

'What all such countries do, to the extent that they "modernize" at all, is simply create the material preconditions for the emergence of capitalism. In North Korea, the first "free trade zones" are already on the drawing board...we know where they're going with that.'

These free trade zones are only a temporary measure as the economy is effectively dieing due to the American pressure. The Koreans hope with them they can trade at the cost of foreign investment. If the economy does not recover I do imagine the country will fall into capitalism, or possibly in its recovery bourgeois ideas will emerge; its a difficult situation, however Kim Jong Il has no choice.

Socialism has the power to create the material conditions in advance of capitalism. Socialism goes through a stage akin to capitalism early on, as Korea has to some extent. They were never able to completely abolish money or remove all private enterprise, it is now though that there is a re-emergence of its former strength with these 'free trade zones'.

'It's easy for us in the advanced capitalist countries to be "western-centric"...to forget that most of the people in the world today are still peasants. To them, the escape from feudal or semi-feudal oppression is the first priority...and if "Marxism" offers such an escape, they'll gladly embrace the terminology without the slightest interest in what Marxism really is.'

In the DPRK workers are highly politicised, I would suggest they have a good idea of what Marxism is, and more so, Kim Jong Il does.

'But we shouldn't let that complication obscure the underlying class realities; Marxism that doesn't derive from a developed working class is no more possible than a steam-powered railroad in 12th century England.'

Prior to revolution Korea was actually somewhat developed. Its development after was so far departed from feudalism it could only be on similar terms to standards of living attained in capitalism. The USSR was semi-feudal before revolution, and by the 40's it had become a super-power and by the 50's it had standards of living beginning to worry the U.S.

Mao realised what you have said, and opted to first have capitalist development and a bourgeois democratic revolution before socialism. Of course, Deng Xia Ping then lost site absolutely of any socialism.

[deadpool 52]

North Korea is bureaucratic bullshit, man. There are nothing more than complacent elite ruling over the masses. No people's dictatorship.

A "homogenous society?" Would that be a good idea?



Mao became a great "reforming emperor" in accordance with Chinese traditions.

Fucking bulllllshhhit.
The first law passed in the People's Reupublic, after Liberation, was the Land Law, which gave women rights to hold land. This was followed by the Marriage Law which protected girls against arranged marriages and provided for divorce.
Now I do not know if you have ever actually learned Confucism, but this type of action has never been taken in the history of China!

[thursday night]

Thank you Comrade Mao for once again clearing up a few things for me. I'll need to get your opinion on the Socialist Republic of Vietnam because I recently received a package from their embassy in America's capital with reading material, something I requested. From first glance it seems that they are on a well marked road to socialism, but your highly educated opinions are welcomed.

[redstar2000]

deadpool 52, you are confusing a specific measure with a historical tradition. "Reforming emperors" are, I think, characterized by the "sweeping reforms" they decree...not the details.

I agree that Mao was not a Confucianist...though I do think he was influenced by that tradition. But no Confucianist would ever have played the role that Mao played in the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution".

The fact that there has never been such an event in North Korea indicates that the DPRK is much closer to the Confucian tradition.

I'm afraid the other responses to my post consist of assertions that boil down to "such-and-such is true" because they say it's true. Perhaps if I were an expert on the DPRK with first-hand information, I could respond in detail to such assertions. Of course, everything the bourgeois media says about North Korea is untrustworthy...so I'm left without detailed evidence.

But the particular assertion that the "free trade zones are a temporary measure" has an easy response: we've heard that one before.

:cool:

[thursday night]

“Perhaps if I were an expert on the DPRK with first-hand information, I could respond in detail to such assertions.”

Unfortunately for you, redstar, Comrade Mao is an expert/scholar on the DPRK and I take all of his excellent information as good information. It seems to me that you have completely given in to the bourgeoisie media machine on the DPRK. If you are a Marxist-Leninist, why not stand in general defense of a socialist nation while remaining critical, as I am, instead of totally discrediting it?

And, by the way, what a fabulous response to Comrade Mao’s detailed analysis on the SEZs in North Korea. (Sarcasm)

[Saint-Just]

'I'm afraid the other responses to my post consist of assertions that boil down to "such-and-such is true" because they say it's true. Perhaps if I were an expert on the DPRK with first-hand information, I could respond in detail to such assertions. Of course, everything the bourgeois media says about North Korea is untrustworthy...so I'm left without detailed evidence.

But the particular assertion that the "free trade zones are a temporary measure" has an easy response: we've heard that one before.'

My reply was not substantiated or particularly in depth because I do not have much time to write. Kim Jong Il, unlike Deng Xia Ping has written a great many works on anti-revisionism, he is nothing like Deng Xia Ping. Kim Jong Il has opposed revisionism and classed revisionism as being identifiable by economics; the departure from a planned economy.

This is a quote on the SEZ:

'Indeed, Beijing has been pushing the concept on North Korea's Kim for months. It certainly makes sense: A relatively small amount of foreign investment could quickly start bringing in hard cash for a country that is collapsing because of shortages of food and fuel.'

A quote on what would be required to develope the SEZ:

'First, get party and military leaders on board, in part by showing them what China has done and still remained socialist. Kim didn't need to go to Shanghai to learn about China; it is no surprise that he took his senior military leaders with him.

Find the best economic drivers and gradually free them from government constraints. Work on agriculture and light industry. Slowly, carefully abandon central planning by letting market forces grow within the country and then be influenced by the global economy.

Allow North Korea to be exploited--at the right price--to get trade going, pay for modern equipment and technology and establish a new industry base. What North Korea has is reasonably skilled cheap labor. Its immediate future is not in high tech, but rather in shoes, textiles and other simple processing that is now leaving South Korea for cheaper manufacturing locales.

Create openings to those countries that can help--first of all, South Korea and the United States. The others would then be easy.

Liberalize the political system by pushing decision-making downward, letting ideas bubble upward'

Can you see that happening? Do you think Kim Jong Il, who strives for a homogenous working class society would do such things?

In addition, what Kim Mung-son said (a Korean official):

'Kim, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Hong Kong, said he was confident that these zones would attract enough investment to pull North Korea out of its current economic woes. According to North Korean officials, current pledged investment in Rajin-Sonbong stands at 370 million dollars in 58 projects.'

Why they need this 'hard cash':

'The access to capital is limited, especially since the DPRK faces harsh boycotts internationally'

Anyway, if bourgeois elements emerge, Korea coulf reform, but these SEZ are eseential currently.

I Have some of the strongest links possible for a foreigner with the DPRK, but obviously I only know what they tell me and what I can assertain from foreign sources, only citizens and members of the government most of all in the DPRK know best.


'Thank you Comrade Mao for once again clearing up a few things for me. I'll need to get your opinion on the Socialist Republic of Vietnam because I recently received a package from their embassy in America's capital with reading material, something I requested. From first glance it seems that they are on a well marked road to socialism, but your highly educated opinions are welcomed.'

I do not know a great amount on Vietnam, however of the socialist countries it went through revolution relatively late, founded 27 years ago, compared to DPRK for example, 58 years ago. The country is generally quite open, however this can partly be expected at this early stage, particularly considering the cautious route to socialism it has taken. Only time can tell what will happen in Vietnam, for now however, it is the correct idea to support it.

Here are some pictures inside the DPRK:

http://www2m.biglobe.ne.jp/~taro/py/hotelkor.jpg

http://www2m.biglobe.ne.jp/~taro/py/yugyong.jpg

http://www.yunkai.de/stories/northkorea/page2/street2.jpg

http://www.yunkai.de/stories/northkorea/page2/street1.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/0005/korea.photo/images/north/04.skyline.jpg

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 6:57 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[deadpool 52]

Mao’s father sent him to school where Mao learned the ideas and values that remained in his underlying thought pattern for the rest of his life; as in Confucius’ Analects, and the work of Menicus; just as how Western civilization ideas and values are defined by Judæo-Christian terms. From Confucianism, Mao drew from three key points. The first, that every human being and every society must have some sort of moral compass. Second, when only a man’s actions be right if his thoughts were morally correct; called “virtue.” Third, the importance of self-cultivation.

[thursday night]

I’ve been reading through this glossy brochure sent to me (only skimming as once again I am ill) and overall I’m quite impressed. One thing that surprised me was the extreme desire for foreign investment expressed in the book. Nevertheless I think it crucial to show our solidarity with the Socialist Republic of Vietnam as well as constantly increasing knowledge.

[redstar2000]

Just out of curiousity, is that momumental pyramid the tomb of the last "great leader"?

If so, the Egyptians must be really impressed. :cheesy:

:cool:

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:44 pm on Mar. 9, 2003
Just out of curiousity, is that momumental pyramid the tomb of the last "great leader"?

If so, the Egyptians must be really impressed. :cheesy:

:cool:

Yes....thats right, its his tomb, he's obsessed with classical civilisations, he loves archaic torture and ancient grandure....

I think that you will notice actually, that they have accomplished a great deal, despite great problems.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 6:05 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)

[Just Joe]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 11:39 am on Mar. 7, 2003
"Juche" is Korean for Confucianism.

The central idea of Confucius is that "right conduct by the ruler leads to a harmonious society."

The ruler is key; thus, the father and the son are both praised to the skies in the sincere belief that this will create social harmony.

That this Confucian idealism is dressed in the garments of Marxist materialism is...unfortunate. From time to time, it misleads people.

"Man is the master of all things"? Actually, that's a direct repudiation of material reality. Try "mastering" your need for oxygen...you'll last about 4 minutes.

True, we can do a lot to "master" nature...but only in accord with nature's "laws" as best we can grasp them. It's appropriate that the pictorial symbol of "Juche" is a "flying horse"...an animal that cannot exist on a planet as massive as ours. By the end of this century, it might indeed be possible to genetically engineer such a creature into existence...but it would not be able to get off the ground.

"Juche" is an example of a larger 20th century phenomenon. What happens when pre-capitalist societies try to "creatively apply" Marxism in their countries? What is Marxism in words becomes an ideology more suited to the real class situation in practice...a situation in which the working class, being small and weak, plays hardly any role at all.

Pol Pot made "Marxism" into a murderous drama of peasant revenge on decadent urbanites. Mao became a great "reforming emperor" in accordance with Chinese traditions. In Korea, a "Marxist dynasty" has been created; it is far closer to Korean royal tradition than say, the Paris Commune or the Russian Soviets.

What all such countries do, to the extent that they "modernize" at all, is simply create the material preconditions for the emergence of capitalism. In North Korea, the first "free trade zones" are already on the drawing board...we know where they're going with that.

It's easy for us in the advanced capitalist countries to be "western-centric"...to forget that most of the people in the world today are still peasants. To them, the escape from feudal or semi-feudal oppression is the first priority...and if "Marxism" offers such an escape, they'll gladly embrace the terminology without the slightest interest in what Marxism really is.

And they get what they want...but not in the form they anticipated. Agrarian reform leads to the emergence of "successful peasants"...who become merchants...who become capitalists. The use of "Marxism" can elevate this to the level of government policy...foreign trade starts out as desirable and becomes indispensable; those who are "good" at it draw appropriate (capitalist) conclusions. Since Marx was right, class realities prevail.

The presence of imperialism complicates our view; we see any resistance to imperialism as being somehow progressive. To the extent that such resistance undermines imperialism, that is a valid observation.

But we shouldn't let that complication obscure the underlying class realities; Marxism that doesn't derive from a developed working class is no more possible than a steam-powered railroad in 12th century England.

:cool:




this post proves my point that deep down in every Communist who lives in an imperialist country, there is a chauvenist waiting to jump out.

here we have redstar2000. a well read and educated Marxist who is a bitter enemy of imperialism. but when it comes to his opinion on countries creating Socialism, only the big boys can do it. don't worry redstar, Marx was the same to an extent. of course he did live in the 19th century so maybe he could be excused.

any country on this planet has the ability to go Socialist. every country has the right to its own future and its own destiny. and in fact, if Ireland was to go Socialist this week, i'd be sure we'd work twice as hard to make it work only to prove people like you wrong.

i'd love nothing more than for Socialist revolutions to happen in countries like Thailand and Singapore. it would really fuck up those in the imperial countries who think the world really does start and stop with them.

we saw what happened in Russia. Lenin took over proclaiming nations the right to self determination. only to brutally crush any moves toward national sovereignty in the Russian Empire. Russia, the imperial power then moved from a Tsarist imperial power, to a red one. holding its empire together at gun point for the next 80 years. imperial countries don't change over night.

if the United States went Communist, there would still be chavenists wanting to invade Mexico to 'liberate' the working class. maybe its a sub-concious extension of white mans burden? whatever it is, it ain't leftism.

[timbaly]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 1:03 pm on Mar. 10, 2003

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:44 pm on Mar. 9, 2003
Just out of curiousity, is that momumental pyramid the tomb of the last "great leader"?

If so, the Egyptians must be really impressed. :cheesy:

:cool:

Yes....thats right, its his tomb, he's obsessed with classical civilisations, he loves archaic torture and ancient grandure....

I think that you will notice actually, that they have accomplished a great deal, despite great problems.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 6:05 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)


I heard that the pyramid structure is actually the worlds largest hotel, but never opened due to structural problems.

[redstar2000]

JustJoe, aren't you forgetting something? Ireland is part of the European Union now. That means your country is "one of the big boys". I see no reason why Ireland cannot be part of a modern socialist/communist EU.

Any country in the world has the ability to "go socialist" in words, JustJoe. But if Marx was right, to really do it requires the foundation of an advanced capitalist economy. Otherwise, it's land reform and red flags and rhetoric.

"Every country has the right to its own future and its own destiny." Well, sure, who wants to argue with that? But a Marxist would add that such a future destiny will, in the long run, be inevitably communist.

By the way, since this thread has an "Asian theme", I would think genuine communist revolution quite possible in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore...but not yet Thailand and Malaysia...and out of the question in the Phillippines, India, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, etc. Of course, that's only a personal estimate...I am not a seer.

Should a socialist government in the United States invade Mexico to "liberate the working class"? I'd answer that this way: if there were to be a working class uprising in Mexico, then it would be our communist duty to go to their assistance.

I mean we are talking 50 to 100 years into the future...Mexico might be quite ready to undertake genuine communism by then. So it wouldn't be a case of us "white guys" imposing communism at gunpoint on those "brown guys" for their own good.

As far as the USSR is concerned, JustJoe, I think you know that I am, in some ways, as critical as you are. Indeed, I think the USSR illustrates the point I made in my original post: when you try to make a communist revolution in a backward country, you don't get communism...but rather a class structure that is more or less appropriate to the real level of the means of production. Class realities prevail no matter how red your flags are and no matter how radical your rhetoric is. Perhaps that is a shame; it certainly is historical fact.

Correct me if I'm wrong, JustJoe, but perhaps it is the "inevitability" of all this that really bothers you. I've heard some say that Marxism "takes away free will", that it's "too deterministic", etc. Perhaps you agree with those sentiments. That's ok. I don't really think that people have to be Marxists...though it helps...a lot.

Because, again if Marx was right, it is the dynamic of class struggle that compels the working class to act as if it were Marxist regardless of its subjective desires. To submit to capitalism, in the end, becomes an impossibility.

:cool:

[Just Joe]

i was talking about imperialist countries. i don't recognise the free state being part of the EU because i don't recognise the 26 counties. 'Ireland' doesn't exist officially.

i agree that it helps if a country is advanced economically, buts not the be all and end all. i think the only way advanced countries will go socialist is if they lose there cheap products from the third world. look at almost every imperialist country. before globalisation, the working classes were militant and at some times revolutionary. then during the 80's and globalisation, there living got better off the back of the third world. thats why the working people in imperialist countries have been so 'un-revolutionary'. if thats a word.

my critisisms of the USSR are, after Stalin anyway, not all because it was totalitarian, but mainly because it was imperialist. probobly worse than the Americans if truth be told. i think this is because at heart, it was an imperialist country. it inherited the Russian Empire.

i don't agree that Marxism takes away free will. you should know by now, that i don't have a problem with Marxism, only with those who have tried it. i can read Das Kapital nodding my head, but i read the history of Stalins USSR thinking this has nothing to do with what Marx and Engels wrote down all those years ago.

finally, i do agree with this statement 100%:

Because, again if Marx was right, it is the dynamic of class struggle that compels the working class to act as if it were Marxist regardless of its subjective desires. To submit to capitalism, in the end, becomes an impossibility.

Capitalism will be overthrown by the working people. even if they don't consider themselves Marxists, they'll be doing his work.