Why do people love money so much - or even what money can bu

[mentalbunny]

Is greed part of human nature? if it is then why are some people really genorous and give away all they have? Some people even give their lives for other people, so why are some of us so intent on screwing the planet over?

This is one of life's greatest mysteries in my opinion. What does money do that is so incredible? it is possible to live on very little and still be happy, so why do some people seek to own lots, and they are never happy? How do we cure humanity fo this hirrible, contagious disease, because it is contagious. We pass it down the generations, it seems that we will never be free of the shackles of greed and selfishness, and until we are we will never truly be civilised.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

It's human nature to love all symbols of power.
Even If the end result is death.

But other people see power as the ability to help the people in need.

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 10:46 pm on Mar. 6, 2003)

[RedThreat]

Greed is not always a part of human nature, it is only part when you let it be...which is very hard to not let it. i do agree that the lust for money is a disease (why do teenagers slave at mcdonald for minimum wage?) that takes over because i think their is a human instinct to try and be "better" than everyone else, the only those people view "better" is more wealth when that is totally wrong.

[Anonymous]

People are beginning to have a lot more free time and therefore spend time pursuing things which might allow them to enjoy this time more.
Competition between humans, especially males in prevailant.
Sex has something to do with it as well: all over the animal kingdom females are attracted to the male with the most possessions. Therefore it is part of human instinct to attain more things and improve their chances of breeding.

Enough reasons for ya?

[CruelVerdad]

Money has become a simbol of having power, people that are more materialist think this will make them happy!
We must teach that money is having fisical power but not spiritual power, "when you lose material possesions you become free."

[sc4r]

why do some people seek to own lots,

Because in the society that has developed in response to the laws of most modern nations money (even if not expressed as personal consumption of wealth) confers status. Status within society most definitely is a basic human desire.

Which is also why Socialist and communist models dont actually suffer from the common objection raised by opponents that 'the motivation will not be there'. It will be, because peronal wealth is not the basic motivator in the first place.

This isnt a nice wooly liberal theory. It has been tested experimetally and is verified by the vast numbers of hard working highly motivated people who do jobs which provide no real prospect of great personal wealth (let alone the prospect of unearned income) and the equally well attested numbers of 'wealthy' people who dont consume it.

Oddly enough though if there were no desire at all for personal consumption and if the ability to accumulate money was a reliable indicator of the ability to create wealth* the idealistic capitalist ideology (lassez faire, Objectivism, etc.) would actually be both workable and lead to almost identical results to socialism (something alluded to recently by Von Mises I believe).

The problem with capitalism is that it has no mechanism at all to bring this ideal state of affairs about, no mechanism to alter the present association of consumed wealth and status, and also of course ideal capitalism is not actually what most capitalists practise.

* not just production volume but wealth in the sense of delivering those things that people actually want. There are several problems even with the ability of the capitalist mechanism to deliver this not just those connected to capitalist attitutudes.

[CheViveToday]

Humans have lived with the concept of $/land/assetts=power for several milenia now. I don't think it's part of their human nature, but it is ingrained into their mind at birth since it has been accepted for so long.

[redstar2000]

The only real "freedom" conferred by capitalism is the freedom to consume...and the more money you have, the more "freedom" you have.

If you have enough, then you don't "have" to be a wage-slave at all...the modern equivalent of emancipation for a chattel slave. That is a powerful incentive to accumulate money.

:cool:

[Beccie]

Its not money it’s the whole fucking system. Capitalism forces people to be competitive; if you are not then you don’t survive.

[mentalbunny]

So if this lust for money, etc is ingrained in our brinas from birth, how can we change this? Should we change it?

[Liberty Lover]

No money = Khmer Republic 1975-79

[Domino]

It's part of the human nature to be greedy and particulary, to be SELFISH. How can we change this? Evolution maybe. I like revolution better, but this things take time. Hopefully, one day the people won't have the 'Me first' ideology.

(Edited by tetelives at 10:09 pm on Mar. 7, 2003)

[Spiteful]

It looks like Africa was glad when President Bush offered 15 BILLION dollars to them to help with AIDS/HIV (Don't give me the bullshit that the U.S. made the disease and sent it there, please.).. Money is what makes the world go round. The feeling having some money in your pocket far exceeds the feeling of worrying about money.. Hell, if it wasn't for extra money in YOUR parents pockets, you wouldn't have your $1,000+ computer.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 3:45 am on Mar. 8, 2003
No money = Khmer Republic 1975-79


oops...a mistake on my part. I was of course refering to Democratic Kampuchea (not the Khmer Republic) where the Khmer Rouge abolished all forms of money. It was a good demonstration of what a place without money could be like...was it 1.7 or 3 million people that starved to death?

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from Spiteful on 7:21 am on Mar. 8, 2003
It looks like Africa was glad when President Bush offered 15 BILLION dollars to them to help with AIDS/HIV (Don't give me the bullshit that the U.S. made the disease and sent it there, please.).. Money is what makes the world go round. The feeling having some money in your pocket far exceeds the feeling of worrying about money.. Hell, if it wasn't for extra money in YOUR parents pockets, you wouldn't have your $1,000+ computer.

they send twice the amount to Turkey to start a war.

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from Spiteful on 7:21 am on Mar. 8, 2003
It looks like Africa was glad when President Bush offered 15 BILLION dollars to them to help with AIDS/HIV (Don't give me the bullshit that the U.S. made the disease and sent it there, please.).. Money is what makes the world go round. The feeling having some money in your pocket far exceeds the feeling of worrying about money.. Hell, if it wasn't for extra money in YOUR parents pockets, you wouldn't have your $1,000+ computer.

well, they say the one who first fucked a monkey is to blame.. i suspect laura.

[Hate Your State]

If the lust for money is ingrained in our brains from birth, that is only because of the detrimental course we have set ourselves on. That's why we need to alter our course yet again, and eliminate this internal materialism that comes out as we are brought up in capitalist society.

[Show me the Money]

Quote: from Show me the Money on 12:15 am on Mar. 9, 2003

Quote: from Spiteful on 7:21 am on Mar. 8, 2003
It looks like Africa was glad when President Bush offered 15 BILLION dollars to them to help with AIDS/HIV (Don't give me the bullshit that the U.S. made the disease and sent it there, please.).. Money is what makes the world go round. The feeling having some money in your pocket far exceeds the feeling of worrying about money.. Hell, if it wasn't for extra money in YOUR parents pockets, you wouldn't have your $1,000+ computer.

well, they say the one who first fucked a monkey is to blame.. i suspect laura.

i think millions of ppl have a responibility
w in the matter.. well atleast she listens to «her» ppl.. they say "Fuck Bush".. i would say "Don't Fuck Bush"; the world won't survive another Bush!
-------------------------------------------
ShoMo

[Moskitto]

well, they say the one who first fucked a monkey is to blame.. i suspect laura.

The strains in Africa and North America are different, also the oldest tribes in Africa are totally HIV-, but the case of HIV was discovered in 1959 Kinchasa, although there are rumours of cases as early as 1954 New York or 1934 in Europe, but these cannot be confirmed due to no blood available to test.

(Edited by Moskitto at 9:58 pm on Mar. 9, 2003)

[sc4r]

Quote: from Spiteful on 6:21 am on Mar. 8, 2003
It looks like Africa was glad when President Bush offered 15 BILLION dollars to them to help with AIDS/HIV

US aid to the world IN TOTAL is about 13 Billion dollars per annum. It is hard really to even classify most of this as aid since it goes to already wealthy countries and chiefly takes the form of arms (Israel is the biggest recipient - 30% of the total).

Perhaps you can find me a link of some sort to GWB's offer to Africa because until I actually see it I will totally disbelieve it, or at the very least believe it to be very different from the way you are presenting it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Heck no, I love $$$, and I make no apologies for it.

By the way, I object to the term "cold, hard cash".

To me, its "Warm, soft cash". Ohhhh yeah.

[booga]

i love money so much, i cant wait for Taco Bell to call me up and ask me to work for 6 bucks an hour. :)

many young kids get locked up because their parents dont have enough money to keep them occupied with a stable home environment, food in the fridge, and stimulating activities.

always being in an opportunity to increase my personal revenue (to me it is irrelevant how one makes money) i usually went against it for fear of having its power, now i find myself wanting to attain a certain amount of "freedom" so that i can give back what has been given to me. i have many educators to thank for this...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from booga on 11:04 pm on Mar. 9, 2003

many young kids get locked up because their parents dont have enough money to keep them occupied with a stable home environment, food in the fridge, and stimulating activities.



This is a criminal apologist statement.

There are plenty of kids with a less than perfect home life that still choose to stay out of trouble.

Please don't make excuses for willing criminals.

[Domino]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:32 pm on Mar. 9, 2003
Heck no, I love $$$, and I make no apologies for it.

By the way, I object to the term "cold, hard cash".

To me, its "Warm, soft cash". Ohhhh yeah.


And THAT, comrades, is a clear example of why tyrants exist.

[Anonymous]

Money is good.

[Show me the Money]

Money stinks.

ShoMo

[sc4r]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:32 pm on Mar. 9, 2003
Heck no, I love $$$, and I make no apologies for it.

By the way, I object to the term "cold, hard cash".

To me, its "Warm, soft cash". Ohhhh yeah.


I wonder how many simplistic capitalist souls really do believe this ? My guess is that rather more of them than we would like to think actually do have this direct and illusory motivation. I'm quite sure that most will deny this is is what they really mean; but I'm equally sure that at some pschological level it is actually literally true.

In my experience few of them genuinely understand what money is or how it works (oh yes boys I know that you are aware it has exchange value for goods; I'm talking of a considerably deeper anlysis than that).

[Moskitto]

oooh, all this talk of money has given me a crazy idea.

[Smoking Frog II]

humans are generally greedy. This is one reason why capitalism is a 'success' - it flows with human nature.

is it a success to destroy our mother earth?

[EnvelopedInFear]

If no one realized, I guess I could explain:

Money is a necessity!

How else are you going to get jeans? Milk? Beef? etc.?

Are you going to be a seamstress, a farmer, and a butcher? Or are you going to befriend someone who is so that you can get what you need. It's impossible to live without something to exchange for goods and services.

I think you are too deep into the psychological aspect of money and greed, try dumbing it up a bit, and you'd realize its just a necessary middle man.

[Tkinter1]

Money is the current form of incentive. A society needs incentives to progress. It has always been this way, it is not creation of Capitalism.

At my church all I ever hear from the Albanians is "oh how Socialism made everybody lazy, you don't have to do anything!"

How can a Communist society progress without incentive? How can a Communist society provide incentive without creating an unequal gap between people?

[canikickit]

I don't know what the rest of my commie friends said, but I fucking love money. Just as much as CI, I'm sure.

That doesn't mean I support this poxy system of living, but it's a part of life, and it's good to have some. But still, I am reminided of a Peter Tosh song, "The Day the Dollar Die":

The day the dollar die
Things are gonna be better
The day the dollar die
No more corruption
The day the dollar die
People will respect eachother
The day the dollar die

The day the dollar die
Gonna be better
The day the dollar die
I won't need no pockets
The day the dollar die
Don't have to be frettin'
The day the dollar die



The sooner the better.

[EnvelopedInFear]

This doesn't really fit in, but I just thought of it on the money topic.

Where do Professional Athletes fit into Communism?

I think its disgusting how much pro basketball, football, and baseball players get paid and how their attitudes are when they find out someone is making more than them. Sorry to be off topic, but I'd do anything to get away from people like that.

[Tkinter1]

The day the dollar die' is the day the world implode'.

[timbaly]

either that or communism will have been achieved

[sc4r]

Quote: from EnvelopedInFear on 3:59 am on Mar. 11, 2003

Where do Professional Athletes fit into Communism?




It really depends on what model of communism or socialism you are talking about :

Under idealistic communism the issue doesn't arise. The theory is that people will have been civilised into doing what seems to them useful and taking only what is fair.

Under most central command systems of communism or socialism there is a limited amount of variation between wages and these are decided by the state. Cuba is a good model, people there can earn up to 8 times the base rate.

Under market socialsm people negotiate their wages. There is no special reason why athletes (or anyone else) should not get paid absolutely extreme amounts of money but in practise I doubt that they would. This is because the obscene amounts paid to footballers and the like reflect the commercial value of sport as an advertising medium, and that value would drop dramatically.

Again in practise I doubt that even a market socialist society would really not cap wages at some level anyway.

[mentalbunny]

I'm dealing more with greed here, rather than money. The world would be complete chaos if we woke up one morning and had no money.

Money should not be an incentive, not even what money can buy, although in some cases that is more acceptablre, but it is nigh impossible to get people to change their priorities.

Pro-athletes aren't completely useless so theyw ould possible still have a place, but I'd rather they used thier talents in a more useful way so that they benefit more of society. I also hate the weay that some athletes like footballers and basket-ball players earn so much, whereas some don't earn much at all. I thnk it's betterif sport isn't a career, unl;ess it's kind fo teaching and getting people tolook after their bodies better, cos that's important.

[sc4r]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 2:08 pm on Mar. 11, 2003
I'm dealing more with greed here, rather than money. The world would be complete chaos if we woke up one morning and had no money.



I guess that greed shorn of its perjurative associations is an inbuilt human reaction. We all want more / better.

But this isnt especially relevant to any discussion of socialism vs capitalism etc. It is not impossible to persuade people that their greed can actually be better satisfied by co-operation rather than tooth and nail fighting. In fcat capitalist theories rely on this just as much as socialist ones do, something that is often forgotten or disregarded.

Money is just an exchange medium. It cannot today be exchanged for absolutely anything (no wester society allows you to purchase slaves or new born babies to eat etc.). A large complex society without some form of exchange medium is probably not going to work but money does not have to be exchangeable for the rights to future production. This 'right' is merely incorporated and defended by laws. All that is neccessary to change it is for the laws to be revoked. Its that simple.

The challenge though is to a) get this across to people in the first place and B) persuade them that they would be better off under different (socialist laws). This isnt at all easy because people dont much like change anyway and have been persuaded by familiarity that the laws are somehow natural.

In fact the underlying problem is that people dont vote for ideology, they vote for promises that they more or less believe in that a particular party will improve their lives (and are generally pretty impatient about it). Our problem is that with the demise of the USSR we cannot point to even a false example of our policies working in action, and you can bet your life that the global imperialists who now hold power are not going to make it easy to do so (sabotage of Cuba, Venezuela and numerous other should have made that much clear).

I would say that the only real answer is for us if we really want to eventually win is to make sure that places like Cuba* get all the funding and support we can raise. It probably would not hurt to see a socialist foundation established to buy up interests elsewhere and invest all profits in further buy ups. This, of course, means to seemingly go against the eventual principles of our beliefs but I think it really does not.

Revolution ? we cant win one, so why fantasise.

* a problem with this is that I bet it is hard even for the people here to totally , truly, in theire hearts 100% accept that Cuba is not a vile dictatorship. Some lingering doubt remains simply because of the sheer volume of propaganda issued against it. True ?

(Edited by sc4r at 3:33 pm on Mar. 11, 2003)