November 17 - you oughta love them!!!

[Anonymous]

November 17, Revolutionary People’s Struggle
Greece, leftists

What is November 17?


A radical, leftist Greek terrorist group with a tiny membership and a loathing for America, the West, and capitalism. Most anti-terrorism experts think the organization has no more than 25 members—many of them related to one another, which might explain why the group was able to operate secretly and securely for almost three decades. But in July 2002, amid mounting pressure to fix its terrorist problem before the 2004 Olympics, Greek authorities made a major breakthrough and began arresting November 17 members.
How has the Greek government handled terrorism?
After almost three decades of scant success at combating leftist terrorists, Greek authorities finally made headway against November 17 in the summer of 2002. A failed June 2002 bombing in the port of Pireaus led Greek police to their first arrest of a November 17 member, and they captured four more members in July, including two brothers of the Pireaus bomber and a man charged with being the group’s leader. Police also raided November 17’s Athens hide-outs and weapons storehouses, seized weapons caches, and uncovered troves of documents.

Experts say much of the impetus for the 2002 breakthrough came from concerns that Greece’s terrorism problem could mar the 2004 Olympics. Earlier Greek efforts were much less effective, leading some terrorism experts to suspect links or sympathies between Greece’s ruling socialist elite and the tiny terror groups. After the June 2000 murder of British Defense Attaché Stephen Saunders by November 17, Greece strengthened its police counterterrorism unit, offered multimillion-dollar rewards for leads on terrorist groups, and passed legislation for more vigorous counterterrorism efforts. Leading Greek politicians, including the prime minister, denounced Saunders’ murder and terrorism in general. The public widely observed a national moment of silence for victims of terrorism, and Greek Orthodox Archbishop Christodoulos held an unprecedented memorial service for victims of terrorism in Greece. By the end of 2000, Greece had signed all 12 of the U.N. counterterrorism conventions and ratified ten of them. It also sought closer British and American cooperation on counterterrorism.

What sort of attacks has November 17 launched?
The organization’s first known attack came in December 1975, when the CIA’s Athens station chief was shot with a .45-caliber pistol, November 17’s favorite weapon. Since then, the group has claimed responsibility for 21 murders, including the killings of a U.S. Navy captain, a U.S. defense attaché, a Turkish diplomat, and a British defense attaché. November 17’s initial attacks were directed at senior U.S. officials and Greek public figures, but during the 1980s the group expanded its operations to include bombings of ordinary citizens and property. Since 1990, its targets have also included foreign business and European Union facilities.

Where did November 17 get its name?
From the November 17, 1973, student uprising at Athens Polytechnic University. Twenty students were killed when Greek army tanks suppressed the protests, and the group formed in part to retaliate against the ruling military junta.

What are November 17’s goals?
The group, which espouses communism, has continued its anti-Western stance after the Cold War. November 17 bitterly opposes Greek participation in NATO. It also favors ousting U.S. military bases from Greek territory, severing Greece’s ties with the European Union, removing the Turkish military presence from Cyprus, and launching an anti-capitalist popular uprising against the Greek middle and upper classes. In December 2000, after killing a British general, the group released a communique defending itself against mounting public criticism by trying to appeal to populist, pro-Serb sentiments and urging Greeks to defy the government’s counterterrorism efforts.

Are there other terrorist groups in Greece?
Yes. After November 17, the most important is Revolutionary People’s Struggle, known by its Greek acronym ELA—a radical leftist terrorist group that emerged to oppose the Greek military junta that ruled from 1967 to 1974. ELA is a self-described revolutionary, anti-capitalist group that opposes “imperialist domination, exploitation, and oppression.” It is strongly anti-American and hopes to expel U.S. military forces from Greece.

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/rps.html


i must say that i support them...
and i think that all so called leftist should do the same...

[Guardia Bolivariano]

One thing is suporting their ideals.But suporting terrorism is a diferent story.

[Anonymous]

i dont find theyr actions terrorists...

if attacking CIA operatives and the goverment is terrorism, then socialism is the most terrorist ideal ever...

the "november 17" take years of planiong before making theyr attacks, why? becuase they want to minimalize if not end the civilian casualitys, and in all theyr attacks, only 1 student was killed, needless to say in acident....

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 10:50 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
One thing is suporting their ideals.But suporting terrorism is a diferent story.

Ever heard the quote 'today's terrorist is tomorrow's statesmam[/woman]'.

Acts of terrorism are often - terrible, however, they are sometimes the only way to achieve the aims of a certain group. But some tactics are unjustifiable, like the killing of innocents quite often.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 10:56 pm on Mar. 6, 2003
[Ever heard the quote 'today's terrorist is tomorrow's statesmam[/woman]'.

Acts of terrorism are often - terrible, however, they are sometimes the only way to achieve the aims of a certain group. But some tactics are unjustifiable, like the killing of innocents quite often.

I agree with that. And I'm not saying the CIA isn't terrorist but If just one inocent person falls victim to an attack.It cannot be justified. After all It's easy to say they died for the cause when we're still alive and well.The best way to fight is by guerrilla tactics or urban guerrilla tactics they target the army and defense forces.

[Anonymous]

all guerrilla movements i know are considered terrorist groups..

this is the best about capitalist propaganda, any ofence to private property and "democratic" power is considered terrorism...

the same thing happens with November 17..
plus if you notice they sometimes use guerrilla tactics too...

[thursday night]

Support November 17th.

[Xvall]

Support November 17. They are most certainly not terrorists. I have yet to hear about them blowing up busses full of innocent Greek or American children. They have killed certain government officials. Government officials who terrorize the third world, government officials who exploit the working class. November 17 is not a terrorist group. Even the most liberal of communists and socialists do not believe they are a terrorists group. I know this offhand, because I have visited a very liberal socialist message board, and every member of it supports the orginization. 'Terrorist' is a word used quite often by the American government these days; it has practically become devoid of any meaning. Before you know it, people who even show the slightest dissent against the capitalistic system will be labeled terrorists by the bush administration.

[Xvall]

If you also did not know, the 'Earth Liberation Front' is labeled as a terrorist orginization by the United States government; and if I recall correctly, they don't even try to kill people.

[Pete]

Solidarity.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 5:48 am on Mar. 7, 2003
If you also did not know, the 'Earth Liberation Front' is labeled as a terrorist orginization by the United States government; and if I recall correctly, they don't even try to kill people.


Yeah, but they do bomb SUVs and set Research Facilities (http://www.earthliberationfront.com/news/2002/090302.shtml) on fire.

http://www.earthliberationfront.com


Oh, they also seem to harbor an intense disgust (http://www.earthliberationfront.com/news/2003/010903.shtml) for urban sprawl, as well.

[Aleksander Nordby]

They kill those who desirve it

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Aleksander Nordby on 8:45 am on Mar. 7, 2003
They kill those who desirve it

Bush beware:biggrin:!

[Xvall]

You are right Dark Capitalists. But with that logic, the Crips and Bloods should be on the United States list of terrorist orginizations; as they have commited acts of arsen, and even worse, murder. I really don't think that the Earth Liberation front should be categorized in the same group as Al Quieda. I don't think that the elves plan to hijack planes anytime soon.

[nod1980]

Could someone tell me what cause justifies the loss of even one human life? Well you might answer that changes in our world are not made without any blood spilled. But what was truly the cause of action for 17N.Well if you ask me i would say that they where a bunch of operatives of the occasional Greek government for their "dirty" work. Even if you take a look at the timing of they capture last summer them you would easily come to the conclusion that all this is to aid the current Greek government to win the coming election and also for the Greek police to take over the security of the Olympics without spending millions to hire security for them. But could someone tell the families of their victims that they where murdered because they where supporting capitalism? Is this a cause for murder? I don't think so. Humanity is evolving as time passes back in the 60s' in Greece communists where hunt down and killed just because they where communists that wasn't of course right. Thinks like that where happening all over the world in the past decades but i strongly believe that the communist party around the world shouldn't try to "pay back" or "avenge" their victims what is the blood spill all about is it about who’s ideology is going to prevail? Does this justify the murder of people for what they believe? if you think yes (i don't)then imagine yourself as a 15 year old alone in the world just because someone thought that your parents deserve to be murdered for their ideas whatever these are.
Are the ideas of someone enough to condemn him to death what ever he believes in. And something that i spotted in the main page of the forums: There is a thread called "opposing ideologies" with the description: Only forum where right-wingers, cappies, Stalinists and other misguided individuals are allowed to post. "Could someone explain to me why you call everyone else misguided? Under democracy everyone is free to believe everything that he wants. Do you really believe that you have the right to judge other people and call the misguided? I thing that first of all you have to realise that communism is like Christianity. They are both perfect in theory but they are not applicable in society because there always going to be the human factor with it's weakness so you better start to realise that and then try to conclude you believes and how you want the world to be.


(Edited by nod1980 at 5:08 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[thursday night]

ELF is a wonderful organization.

[Xvall]

N17 doesn't just go around shooting people who support capitalism. If they wanted to do that, they would barge into the New York Stock Exchange with Ak-47s. (In case you didn't know; they have not done this!)

[Argentino]

I support them to
i invite all the guys that are waching...to come to arrest me
:-)

[Aleksander Nordby]

how many people did they kill, to now

[Argentino]

I don't remeber how many guys they killed...but they had only one collateral damage.
Best Regards

[Aristotelis]

Only one "collateral damage"? Yeah, right! If you completely ignore the people they murdered when they stole money from banks in order to fund their cause! (24/12/84 Murder of Xristos Matis when they stole 7.5 million drachmas from the National Bank)

And if you completely ignore several other people actually, like the drivers of their victims whom they also murdered for just being inconveniently around.
(15/11/83 Murder of the driver Nikos Veloutsos, 21/2/85 Murder of the driver Yiorgos Roussetis)

They were a group of murderers. They killed businessmen and industrialists, they killed public attorneys and newspaper editors, they killed members of the parliament and foreign officials. They threw bombs and missiled at hotels and industries, at tv stations and embassies.

They are scum and their fight against these and similar scum must go on!

[Zelena Hracka]

My little friend Aristoteli, get real. They didn't kill them for nothing. As for the innocent people who were killed the 17N has apologized....

....as exactly the americans were apologising when they killed civilians in Serbia.

Etsi einai.........

[Aristotelis]

Yes, of course they had their reasons for killing them. IMO their reasons for killing them was that the terrorists were doing their utmost to harm Greece's ties with the West or any chance for Greek prosperity. It's not as if they ever attacked Soviet (or Russian) imperialist interests, did they now? They only used "imperialism" to attack *one* side of the Cold War.

So, reporters friendly to the West, or public attorneys determined to catch 17N, or liberal (friendly to the West) members of the parliament, or industrialists that might have made investments in poor regions (and made Greece a bit more prosperous - an anathema to 17N since, like KKE, it depended on poor people remaining poor and having no hope in improving their lives *through* capitalism)... they were all fair game.

And since they and their ilk *adores* power, they decided they had the right to murder these people.

The same way that if I just decide I'd like to murder these terrorists I'd have the right to, isn't that true? No need for trial or anything of the sort, bring back the law of the jungle. Which is of course what they were trying to do.

Not to mention that atleast some of their crimes (including the last one, the murder of Sanders) seems to have benefitted Kokkalis financially, that old Stazi agent, the biggest capitalist tycoon around.

How socialist of them.

[Anonymous]

Fuck it...

they are terrorist happy now capitalist *****?


yet USA that has killed millions of inocents through the ages dont deserve to be called terrorist right?

fucking hypocrat

[Aristotelis]

When did I ever say anything about the US?

They've backed terrorists in the past (like UCK), they've backed *dictatorships* in the past, they've acted themselves like terrorists in the past. That's a given.

Of course the Soviet Union and China have acted just as bad, and even more so. Few communists ever mention *those* crimes though.

But I thought we were discussing 17N and whether *they* are to be liked or not? The answer is obviously "not".

As a sidenote did you know that most communists here in Greece still speak the old fairy tale about 17N being actually an instrument of the CIA?

It's strange how the exact same actions are believed by half the communists to have been a noble fight against America and capitalism, and by the *other* half the communists to have been a *vile* fight *of* America and capitalism *against* the people, against the working class!

The exact same actions!

Who's the hypocrite now, "anarchist"?

(Edited by Aristotelis at 1:27 am on Mar. 12, 2003)

[Argentino]

The ties to the west mut brake.....prosperity is the profit for the elite..not for workers
everyone that is making profit on the job of other must be punished
Best Regards

[Aristotelis]

That's probably the reason why non-prospering countries like Albania have millions of workers eager to flee it, because the workers there are profiting so much from all the non-prosperity of Albania that they have to seek jobs in Greece instead.

That's also the case for all Third World countries. Being so non-prosperous makes *their* workers so happy that they die trying to emmigrate to western nations instead.

I mean that's also why Greeks in past decades emmigrated to Germany, to Australia, to the US, to find jobs. Because we were being *so* prosperous that the workers themselves couldn't profit a damn.

*sigh* Frankly, I think that people would rather have jobs and let industrialists profit of their labour also, rather than have themselves starve to death and only have the moral satisfaction that no industrialist will ever earn anything from their labour and let unemployment and economical stagnation grow.

You can't *eat* moral satisfaction. Especially of such a petty sort.

[Argentino]

i will die free
death to capitalist pigs

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Freedom for food?

Hmmm, nop rather die free then.

[Aristotelis]

Who ever said *freedom* for food? Do you think that the starving masses of Iraq or Nigeria or the Third World are *any* more free than well-fed people in Western democracies? Free to do what? You are being intentionally stupid, both of you.

In truth, Argentino, you don't desire freedom. What you desire is the *power* to kill the 93% of the Greek population who don't vote for communistic parties.

Then the 7% or so that remains will be happily "free"... that is "free" as long as they don't change their minds or have a differing opinion. Then you'll just shoot them the same way that 17N was shooting *our* elected representatives who dared to think differently than your approved way.

Those dozens of thousands of people who voted for Bakoyiannis as a member of the parliament, their chosen representative -- where was *their* freedom when your cowardly murderers you so admire shot him dead!!! Where was their freedom Argentino! It was executed by your beloved tyrants and murderers! Just the same as if it had been a foreign power that had killed him with their army, just the same as if it had been a dictatorship again!

Where is the Greek nation's freedom to *choose* to be part of the EU, to *choose* to be part of NATO, to *choose* which newspapers they will read and which they won't, when your beloved cowards murder the MPs the people elect, and murder the reporters that displease them!

You don't desire "freedom", Argentino. What you desire is the power to murder at will. The right to *enforce* your opinion and prevent others from stating theirs!

[lifetrnal]

I see no evidence that November 17th is a terrorist organization. They make war on individual members of a government that they are resisting, and military targets. Thus, I am forced to concede I have a tremendous amount of respect for what they are trying to do for the people of Greece. Solidarity.

[lifetrnal]

Aristotelis,

I don't know where to begin with you. First off, I want to start with your mis-conception that all of us on this board support authoritarianism. Who gave you the notion that modern communists, more importantly the ANARCHISTS you are having this discussion with, support a society in which all who do not agree with the dominant thought are killed. You are a fool. MAYBE, you should look to the actions of the Capitalist world in your own country. I'm sure that it is unfair to say that because the military that ruled Greece called itself Capitalist, that we should consider all those who call themselves capitalists dictators or authoritarian.
Secondly, you talk of *Freedom* and prosperity... well a wise man once said, "freedom means nothing to those without bread." The prosperity and freedom you speak of belong only to the select few... EVEN in my country... the UNITED STATES... and I believe it is more true in your country than it is here.
YES, Nov 17th has killed people who did not deserve to die, would it be possible every revolution would be without blood... but, in most cases this can not happen. The people here respect that, they know that Nov 17th is fighting, killing, and they die... for the people. They seek a better world. This is where the true diffrence between Capitalism and "Leftism" lyes. The Capitalists care not for the people of ANY country, just for the future profits of the ruling class. Isn't interesting to you, that we are going to war with Iraq, a country with the worlds 3rd largest oil reserve, but not with other countries who have poor human rights records? Where was the United States when Rawanda was wracked with genocide? NOWHERE, there is no vested intrest in an African nation with no oil? Where was the United States when Indonisia was occupying E. Timor, killing thousands? TRAINING THE INDONISIAN ARMY! Because the Indonisian government is "friendly" and supports Capitalism. How many nations have had their leaders that they elected overthrown by the CIA and replaced with pro-capitalist dicatarors? Chile? Guatamala? Iran? GREECE?
With this in mind, I concede to you... Nov 17th kills. Open your eyes, and look at the alternative YOU support, and tell me who kills more. Tell me who's motives are more forgivable? Tell me that the world is not DRIPPING with the blood spilt for Capitalism.

[Aristotelis]

They make war on individual members of a government that they are resisting, and military targets.

If they only killed members of the government and the military I could perhaps call their fight a military one. A military fight against Greece (and Turkey, and the US, and Germany and Britain), of course, so I'm not sure why "solidarity" is your instinctive response, unless you support all military struggles everywhere, regardless of whether they are progressive or reactionary. If you've decided their struggle is indeed a progressive one, then you've not explained *how* you came to that conclusion.

But as I've said they've also struck multiple times against businessmen and newspaper folk as well as fired bombs and rockets against mass media and the like. These are civilian targets and thus they are terrorists. Simple as that, no?

Not to mention that the lawyer of the 2 (out of 19 or so) who still accept their participation in the organization has mentioned in his speeches that his clients' goal was to "bring terror to the ruling class".

(As a sidenote I don't see how one can show "solidarity" to people who first turned each other in, and then just denied they were ever even involved with the organization. That's what the vast majority of the 17N suspects did.)

Who gave you the notion that modern communists, more importantly the ANARCHISTS you are having this discussion with, support a society in which all who do not agree with the dominant thought are killed

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that those people who support 17N support such a society. I never accused the rest of the communists or anarchists, the ones who don't support 17N.

The prosperity and freedom you speak of belong only to the select few... EVEN in my country... the UNITED STATES... and I believe it is more true in your country than it is here.

Yes, and it is my belief that 17N struck against prosperity because it could have helped all classes, and thus made them irrelevant.

Did you see wealth distributed any more equally in the places where such "revolutions" succeeded? Except ofcourse that everyone was equally poor, with the exception of the leaders who were filthy wealthy.

The people here respect that, they know that Nov 17th is fighting, killing, and they die... for the people.

For the people? Riiight... Tell me -- why should I take just their word for that? What kind of revolution were they successful in?

Fear is the enemy of freedom, and fear is what they excelled in. Frighten the businessmen so they will not make investments, will not create jobs, let the poor people starve in unemployment. Frighten the reporters so that they won't dare say anything against the ruling line. A ruling line which btw is grossly *anti-American* and fanatically religious orthodox.

If they were real revolutionaries, why did they not say anything the genocide in Bosnia commited by Serbs, or against the support that Greek society gave to these Bosnian Serbs, with "common religion" the only reason?
Why did it not ever strike again the ruling *religious* reactionary elite?

How many hundreds of thousands did the Bosnian Serbs kill? That's more than ever the Americans succeeded in doing in the Balkans! Not a peep from them against the ruling Greek elite that supported *those* crimes.

Why should I not think them old agents of KGB, whose leaders might still have ties with old interests from thereabouts?

(Edited by Aristotelis at 12:25 am on Mar. 14, 2003)

[lifetrnal]

Aristotelis,

You are kidding yourself if you believe Capitalistic prosperity leads to classless societies. Look at the United States... the most prosporous country on Earth. In this country we have 3rd world levels of poverty, despite what you might watch on your television. In this country, poor people like myself don't have access to health care. If I were to get cancer, say, I would die, because NO ONE would treat me. I could go on and on and on JUST with the problems in America... and you say that Capitalisitic prosperity leads to classlessness.... not to mention that the dichotomy between rich and poor grows greater every year.
As for Communist countries who's people are better off because of Communist governments... we'll start with Cuba, who's people enjoy a MUCH higher standard of than the rest of Latin America. IN FACT, they're education system and health care system, despite nearly 60 years of U.S. embargo, equal America's.
As to your point of the ruling religious elite... What does this have to do with this discussion. Lot's of people who are Anti-American I do not support. Al-Queda for instance. Any Marxist group actively opposes all religion... (I am NOT among them). Why NOV 17th doesn't attack Serbians or other extreme nationalists outside of Greece? I wouldn't know. The answer seems pretty self explanitory to me though. Revolutions must start locally, and then spread. It is hard enough for a small group to take on the military might of one country, let alone start a conflict with militaries in surrounding countries as well.

[Aristotelis]

I never *ever* said that prosperity leads to a classless society.

I did say (or mean) however that you don't need to have a "classless" society to get some prosperity down to the people.

In the United States you don't have access to health care. Here in Europe you do.


As to your point of the ruling religious elite... What does this have to do with this discussion.

It has to do with evidence towards the fact that 17N wasn't a true revolutionary group, and they were striking not with the aim of bringing down the ruling elite or creating a classless society. They were striking only against that part of the ruling elite that was friendly to the West, and only against democratic forces. They never struck supporters of "eastern" crimes. They also never struck against Kokkalis, the wealthiest capitalist of them all here, and an old spy of the eastern block.

Since Greek admiration for the Bosnian Serb butchers was making us hostile to the West, they would never ever speak or act against that genocide.

The same way that the Communist Party of Greece would not speak against it.

[Argentino]

Fuck the rich asses...feed the poor.
Best Regards