Have sympathy with LL and Morkyboy - and others in the same

[Sirion]

Liberty Lover and Morkyboy has been sent som quite harsh "critics" in the thred he made (I am no exception). While we may see his post lacking of experience and arguments, I think we should not be to quick to judge.

When I think about it, they reminds me of myself a few years ago. Highly ideologic, yet witout any clue about what he really talks about. I did once, at another forum, claim that socialism was the best system, yet I could not explain it properly, becaue I was unsure what its definition was. The fact was that I had created a quasi-socialist system myelf, where wages were somewhat equal, but had many capitalist elements.

Then, I grew up, got some good literature (from all political points of view), and decided where I belonged.

Enougth about me then. LL and Morky may be going through a similar period. Let they stay and give them some respect, so we can probabl have some worty opposition (or... I don't know if I dare to say it... new comerades).

[Pete]

I think this is a job for Stormin Norman and Dark Capitalist!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

So what you're saying is tha LL is a little 8 year old in need of a spanking?

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Sirion on 7:48 pm on Mar. 4, 2003
Liberty Lover and Morkyboy has been sent som quite harsh "critics" in the thred he made (I am no exception). While we may see his post lacking of experience and arguments, I think we should not be to quick to judge.

When I think about it, they reminds me of myself a few years ago. Highly ideologic, yet witout any clue about what he really talks about. I did once, at another forum, claim that socialism was the best system, yet I could not explain it properly, becaue I was unsure what its definition was. The fact was that I had created a quasi-socialist system myelf, where wages were somewhat equal, but had many capitalist elements.

Then, I grew up, got some good literature (from all political points of view), and decided where I belonged.

Enougth about me then. LL and Morky may be going through a similar period. Let they stay and give them some respect, so we can probabl have some worty opposition (or... I don't know if I dare to say it... new comerades).


More evidence of Sirion's fertile brain. You are unable to even come up with your own insults, opting to reverse my criticism of you back onto me. Pathetic.

As for your unsubstantiated slur on my intelligence…Let me assure you that my mind, both in knowledge and insight, is superior to yours.

I have read many works from many ideological viewpoints, and I have come to the inevitable conclusion that a rational social system recognizes that the individual's life requires that he act to create the values his own life requires. To do that he must be free to take those actions. Each human owns his own life and the results of his labour. Societies recognize the right to take action to pursue one's life, liberty, and happiness.

The government's only proper function is to defend those rights through the retaliatory use of force, based on objective standards. The process is fundamentally one of enacting justice.

Government, in acting on objective standards, treats each person equally under the law. But it is a vicious corruption of this principle to turn the power of government towards creating literally "equal" humans. People have different abilities and different motivations. Some work hard -- or work "smart" and others don't. Redistributing wealth sets "need" as a vague and unjust standard through which productive people can be robbed of what they earn.

[Sol]

Not all of us here support handing over complete administrative powers to government LL. In fact, most of us don't.

You say that a man owns the fruits of his own labor. Have you looked around? There are very few people in the US that this is true for.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:34 pm on Mar. 5, 2003


Let me assure you that my mind, both in knowledge and insight, is superior to yours.


In my lifetime I've found statements such as these to be without a doubt the best indication of subnormal intelligence and arrogance approaching the LD50 toxicity level ;)

[englandsgay]

preach it ll

funny how america has won the "whats the best political system" contest in the real world... not your commie imaginary world that exists only in your minds eyes.

I think all of you should move to some god-forsaken land like...... congo... and try your own "perfect" socialist plan there so it can fail and we can all laugh at you.

[Old Friend]

More evidence of Sirion's fertile brain. You are unable to even come up with your own insults, opting to reverse my criticism of you back onto me. Pathetic.

As for your unsubstantiated slur on my intelligence…Let me assure you that my mind, both in knowledge and insight, is superior to yours.

I have read many works from many ideological viewpoints, and I have come to the inevitable conclusion that a rational social system recognizes that the individual's life requires that he act to create the values his own life requires. To do that he must be free to take those actions. Each human owns his own life and the results of his labour. Societies recognize the right to take action to pursue one's life, liberty, and happiness.

The government's only proper function is to defend those rights through the retaliatory use of force, based on objective standards. The process is fundamentally one of enacting justice.

Government, in acting on objective standards, treats each person equally under the law. But it is a vicious corruption of this principle to turn the power of government towards creating literally "equal" humans. People have different abilities and different motivations. Some work hard -- or work "smart" and others don't. Redistributing wealth sets "need" as a vague and unjust standard through which productive people can be robbed of what they earn.

Nice work.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Quote: from englandsgay on 3:06 pm on Mar. 5, 2003

I think all of you should move to some god-forsaken land like...... congo... and try your own "perfect" socialist plan there so it can fail and we can all laugh at you.


LOL, you mean because capitalism is working so FANTASTICALLY well for them at the moment? ;)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from englandsgay on 7:06 am on Mar. 5, 2003
preach it ll

funny how america has won the "whats the best political system" contest in the real world... not your commie imaginary world that exists only in your minds eyes.

I think all of you should move to some god-forsaken land like...... congo... and try your own "perfect" socialist plan there so it can fail and we can all laugh at you.

Who care's what a xenophobic piece of shit like you thinks any way. Why are you even on this forum FUCK OFF

Capitalism has also worked really well in places like Bikina Faso, Zimbabwe, Congo, Indonesia, Autiga, Kenya, Ethiopia, Brazil, Mexico, Uraguay, Peru, Paraguay, Ivory Coast, ALL OF AFRICA (with the following the following exceptions, Morocco, Egypt, Algeria, south africa)

Where has capitalism succeeded. The USA (partially), GB until the WW's. Germany, Japan and ???

(Edited by AK47 at 10:38 am on Mar. 5, 2003)

[Moskitto]

AK47, you at school or home?

p.s. because you went home on the bus they wouldn't let us on the platform.

(Edited by Moskitto at 10:30 am on Mar. 5, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:28 am on Mar. 5, 2003
AK47, you at school or home?

p.s. because you went home on the bus they wouldn't let us on the platform.

(Edited by Moskitto at 10:30 am on Mar. 5, 2003)


Why?

(Edited by AK47 at 11:09 am on Mar. 5, 2003)

[Sirion]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 4:34 am on Mar. 5, 2003
More evidence of Sirion's fertile brain. You are unable to even come up with your own insults, opting to reverse my criticism of you back onto me. Pathetic.

As for your unsubstantiated slur on my intelligence…Let me assure you that my mind, both in knowledge and insight, is superior to yours.

I have read many works from many ideological viewpoints, and I have come to the inevitable conclusion that a rational social system recognizes that the individual's life requires that he act to create the values his own life requires. To do that he must be free to take those actions. Each human owns his own life and the results of his labour. Societies recognize the right to take action to pursue one's life, liberty, and happiness.

The government's only proper function is to defend those rights through the retaliatory use of force, based on objective standards. The process is fundamentally one of enacting justice.

Government, in acting on objective standards, treats each person equally under the law. But it is a vicious corruption of this principle to turn the power of government towards creating literally "equal" humans. People have different abilities and different motivations. Some work hard -- or work "smart" and others don't. Redistributing wealth sets "need" as a vague and unjust standard through which productive people can be robbed of what they earn.


My intention wa not to use your on insults, this was meant as a serious post, not an insult at all! While I may get a bit carried away myself at times, I see no reason to insult. Insulting is THE way to ensure that discussion quality is lowered.

Since this was meant to counter an insult-post that do not exist, I will not comment any further of the post, we can do so in another post where it is on-topic. This post was meant to see through the errors of new users, and let them learn under the process.

As a final note: Don't use the superior intelligence/knowledge argument. We've seen loads of times that those who use it, well, is usually the total opposite...

[morkyboy]

Although most of the men, and of course women, here are communist and I am a liberal doesn't mean that I don't know where I am talking about. Since quite a long time I are looking at the viewpoints of political parties and joined the one I likes most of all. And that is a liberal one.

I am not going to say that I am either superior or inferior to the rest of you. I am only here to learn a bit more about communism and to understand their points of view. And to ask the questions I would like to see being answert.

[Pete]

Morky :) Ask and be answered! (Although not necassarily by me)

[Liberty Lover]

Don't use the superior intelligence/knowledge argument. We've seen loads of times that those who use it, well, is usually the total opposite...

Claiming my intellect is superior to yours is like Russians claiming their country is bigger than Taiwan.

[Sirion]

Instead of comming with worthless rethoric, show me proof for this. To refresh your memory, I will post some of your earlier posts here (sorry, I am breaking with the respect thing that I created this post for, but this is becomming personal):

("Maybe the reason there are no capitalists in the Cuban Government is because the people of Cuba are sensible enough to not vote for them")

Or maybe it's because state run and owned media tells them what to think.

Anyone see the incredible irony in this?

Number two:

Larissa,
I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL SYSTEM!!! CUBANS CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE PARTY DEMOCRACY.

Is using caps lock a sign of intelligence? Also, you posted this same post multiple times in the thread, ignoring the wave of evindence that came over you.

Number three:

Claiming my intellect is superior to yours is like Russians claiming their country is bigger than Taiwan.

Hmm... remember what I said about this?

Now, find post where I have expressed myself in such a way... ignoring evidence while posting the same OPINION again and again (with nothing toback it up with), screming by using caps and using words that do not belong in a political discussion.

While not signs on intelligence, I would say that these points are signs on lack of preparing and gathering of information.

The only way you can gain respect on a board, is to show others respect.

[morkyboy]

Why are you actually comparing LL with me? Although on some points in time we might agree on certain issues, I will never be without respect for the people I am discussing things with, as long as they treat me with the same respect as I'll treat them.

[Sirion]

I saw you two around here for the first time abot the same time. This thread has, however, moved to be about LL only, as he has seen my support as an "insult to his intelligence"...

[socialist2000]

Quote: from morkyboy on 10:21 am on Mar. 6, 2003
Why are you actually comparing LL with me? Although on some points in time we might agree on certain issues, I will never be without respect for the people I am discussing things with, as long as they treat me with the same respect as I'll treat them.


I agree LL is far more intolerant than you are.

[Liberty Lover]

Larissa,
I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL SYSTEM!!! CUBANS CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE PARTY DEMOCRACY.

Is using caps lock a sign of intelligence? Also, you posted this same post multiple times in the thread, ignoring the wave of evindence that came over you.


I was repeating a point I had made numerous times. The fact that it was consistently ignored warrented it's posting in uppercase to emphasise my anger at Larissa and CrazyPete's continual denial of facts.


Now, find post where I have expressed myself in such a way... ignoring evidence while posting the same OPINION again and again (with nothing toback it up with), screming by using caps and using words that do not belong in a political discussion.


My argument was that Cuba was not a democracy...my evidence for this was that Cuban's are unable to participate in multi-party election...people were ignoring this so I felt it necessary to repeat myself.

[IHP]

"I was repeating a point I had made numerous times. The fact that it was consistently ignored"

Then maybe master LL, could sympathize with me now that I will request of him for the SEVENTH time, the evidence I require. Mate, honestly give up your futile facade of intelligence and just answer my the arguments. I have argued with you several times and I am yet to get and answers from you. Its telling.

SN, I wouldn't have though I'd ever see you agree with such a loosely written piece. Your not slipping are you friend? :)

--IHP

[Sirion]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 6:43 am on Mar. 7, 2003

Larissa,
I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL SYSTEM!!! CUBANS CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE PARTY DEMOCRACY.

Is using caps lock a sign of intelligence? Also, you posted this same post multiple times in the thread, ignoring the wave of evindence that came over you.


I was repeating a point I had made numerous times. The fact that it was consistently ignored warrented it's posting in uppercase to emphasise my anger at Larissa and CrazyPete's continual denial of facts.


Now, find post where I have expressed myself in such a way... ignoring evidence while posting the same OPINION again and again (with nothing toback it up with), screming by using caps and using words that do not belong in a political discussion.


My argument was that Cuba was not a democracy...my evidence for this was that Cuban's are unable to participate in multi-party election...people were ignoring this so I felt it necessary to repeat myself.


Denial of facts, eh? What you came with was a mere opinion, and you posted it again and again, even if you were "flooded" by evidence saying the opposite. And some of it was from people who had seen Cuba from another angle than western tourists. It is hard to counter such, one needs more facts than your mere opinion can ever give.

[Liberty Lover]

IHP,
See Cuba thread

"SN, I wouldn't have though I'd ever see you agree with such a loosely written piece. Your not slipping are you friend?"

SN recognises an enlightned indvidual when he sees one.

Sirion,
I'm just going to ignore you

[Xvall]

More evidence of Sirion's fertile brain.

Way to respect a guy who tells the people on the board to give you a chance.

[IHP]

"See Cuba thread"

About time mate.

"SN recognises an enlightned indvidual when he sees one"

First off, I wasn't talking to you, get over yourself. Secondly how does your rhetoric prove anything? A totally opinion based piece with vague references such as:"I have read many works from many ideological viewpoints" are false sources. Could name some of the books from both sides of the spectrum that would allow you to com to the "inevitable conclusion" that capitalism is superior? Actually don't bother, you'll just duck and weave without ever answering such as history has told me.

--IHP



(Edited by i hate pinochet at 4:12 am on Mar. 8, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from i hate pinochet on 4:10 am on Mar. 8, 2003
"See Cuba thread"

About time mate.

"SN recognises an enlightned indvidual when he sees one"

First off, I wasn't talking to you, get over yourself. Secondly how does your rhetoric prove anything? A totally opinion based piece with vague references such as:"I have read many works from many ideological viewpoints" are false sources. Could name some of the books from both sides of the spectrum that would allow you to com to the "inevitable conclusion" that capitalism is superior? Actually don't bother, you'll just duck and weave without ever answering such as history has told me.

--IHP



(Edited by i hate pinochet at 4:12 am on Mar. 8, 2003)


Some of the "many works from many ideological viewpoints" I have read include "The Wealth of Nation" by Adam Smith, "Capitalism: The unkown ideal" and "Virtue of selfishness" by Ayn Rand "Let Freedom Ring" by Sean Hannity.

And from the left: "Lenin and Trotsky - What they really stood for" by Alan Woods & Ted Grant "Bolshevism - The Road to Revolution" by Alan Woods, "Marxism and the Class Struggle" by Cliff Slaughter

[IHP]

You didn't need to answer...

...But as you did actually answer, we're on to something. So, which aspects of each do you like dislike. For example what are some inherent problems of "enterprise" capitalism? etc. I am genuinely interested in which aspects of each you consider to be good and bad, and why.

--IHP


(Edited by i hate pinochet at 4:50 am on Mar. 10, 2003)

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 7:13 am on Mar. 6, 2003

Don't use the superior intelligence/knowledge argument. We've seen loads of times that those who use it, well, is usually the total opposite...

Claiming my intellect is superior to yours is like Russians claiming their country is bigger than Taiwan.


No. It is like claiming the Russia is better than Taiwan. Size may be tangibly measured, intelligence cannot. If you have failed to realise this, however, then valid questions may be raised regarding your mental faculties.