Why are Stalinists allowed and not Nazi's??? - Not that I'm

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The question is in the topic really.

Why are Stalinists allowed in here and not Nazi's. This is opposing ideologies.....why is one better than the other?

I am in supportof neither, but I hate Nazi's no more than Stalinists. I think I speak for most moral people as well.

Just put of curiousity. Maybe people can enlighten me. Maybe I missed something in either of their ideologies!

[Just Joe]

Stalinists preach totalitarianism like Nazis, but they don't attack people based on race. there are most likely a lot of different nationalities and races on this site and it'd be offensive if Nazis were allowed to post there radical racist views.

thats my take on it anyway.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

True. I see what you mean. I didn't forget about the race problem. But... I don't know. Are Stalinists really any worse?

[Ymir]

If you are a bourgeois or counter-revolutionary, then yes, Stalinism is bad news for you.

[mentalbunny]

In the eyes of most people on this site Stalinism isn't great news, but some of the symaptyhisers on theis baord do speak some sense, whereas I expect a Nazi would have nothing to really back up their arguements with and they would cause lots of offence.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

My friend, if you are human then Stalinism is bad news for you

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Hey, a fellow Star reader!

I get that paper every weekday! Quality stuff.

[Saint-Just]

'My friend, if you are human then Stalinism is bad news for you'Socialsmo o Meurte

Could you possibly sunbstantiate that comment?

Stalinists (or rather Marxism-Leninism, Nazis; There is a wealth of difference. Nazis are rightist opportunists with interests entirely towards the domination of one man by another. Marxism-Leninism is the polar opposite.

Lenin said fascism is 'capitalism in decay'. Fascism is the last emibittered stand of the class system. It upholds the class system with brutality. Marxism-Leninism destroys the class system.

Marxism-Leninism is the product of arduous objective analysis of society and history. I would argue that fascism was invented by the opportunist Benito Mussolini on the basis of a passion for war and power.

Nazis advocate hatred and repression. It is indeed true that Marxist-Leninists advocate repressions, but as a means to destroy the class of oppressors. Fascism utilises it to uphold the class system and regress society and negate the natural advance of society from the force of the popular masses.

I could go on endlessly....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I know their ideologies and politik are different. But both are as immoral and inhumane as the other. That was my point.

Sent to the Gulag...Sent to the Nazi camps
Both were brutal police states.
Both were colonialists and imperialists
Both completely disarmed people of their opinions
Both led their countries under the shelter of their press-created cults.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 11:06 pm on Mar. 2, 2003
I know their ideologies and politik are different. But both are as immoral and inhumane as the other. That was my point.

Sent to the Gulag...Sent to the Nazi camps
Both were brutal police states.
Both were colonialists and imperialists
Both completely disarmed people of their opinions
Both led their countries under the shelter of their press-created cults.

I've never heard of the term 'Nazi camps' before. Gulags are not quite like concentration camps.

The USSR was a brutal police state?, do you have an evidence of this? You are merely subscribing to the view of the western propertied class.

Colonialist? Imperialist? what supposed annexations are you referring to, none because there weren't any?

The USSR certainly disarmed the bourgeoisie of their opinion, yes.

Under the shelter of press-created cults? I cannot fathom what you could be talking about in reference to the USSR. Free speech was supplied and so on...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

How can you say that only the bourgeoisie had their opinions taken away! Everyone was repressed. And even if it was only the bourgeoisie who had their opinions taken away, this is a bad thing and a Hitler thing too. Why is it different to irradicate rights of Jews than it is to irradicate the rights of bourgeoisie? And dont splurt out your Maoist/Stalinist/Communist explanation for the hatred of the bourgeoisie, because Hitler had his reasons for hating Jews. Both are immoral, both are unjust.

As for backing up my point that both led with their press-created personalities...nothing can actually be done to prove that. But nothing can be done to prove otherwise. Just as we know Hitler did this through sheer common sense, it is clear Stalin did the same.

Of course the USSR displayed colonialist and imperialist tendacies. Post-war eastern europe. How can you deny this was imperialism.

[Just Joe]

Mao, for proof of the similarities Socialsmo was talking about:

Sent to the Gulag...Sent to the Nazi camps

concentration camps and gulags were very similar. both held mainly innocent victims for the sake of slave labour. they are both proven fact also.

Both were brutal police states.

two organisations prove this one- Gestapo and NKVD

Both were colonialists and imperialists

the Nazis annexed a lot of land. especially with German speaking people. they also invaded god knows how many countries to impose there will. Stalin annexed the Baltic States at gun point and used his will too rule over eastern Europe.

Both completely disarmed people of their opinions

again see Gestapo and NKVD.

Both led their countries under the shelter of their press-created cults.

Hitler was one step off a self appointed god in Germany and Stalin wasn't too far behind in the personality cult status. even if he, so i'm told, didn't like it. in fact, both men were only outdone by founder of Juche himself- Kim Il Sung.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Reiteration of what I said and a bit extra detail. Perfect.

Chairman Mao, the evidence is there. You're trying to justify Stalin's actions with your Stalinist views. Just as any Nazi could justify Hitler's actions with their Hitlerist views.

[Cassius Clay]

As they say ignorance is bliss.

Justjoe I answered and disproved every single one of these points in the 'Authoritarians' thread which you have yet to respond to.

To the orginall poster do you honestly think anyone would support Stalin if they bought even 1% of the propaganda hurled against him?

Justjoe, you claim that I stand for 'Totalitarianism' this is almost slander since you know this not to be true. I showed you how workers had the right to sack their managers, how Stalin and the purges were publically criticised and how the USSR had a very democratic process.

I'll respond to the pacific points raised in this thread later. Mr Socialsmo o Muerte may I ask two questions? First of all who tells you what you know about Stalin? Because Trotsky, CNN or the History Channel or Robert Conquest aren't worth nothing.

Second of all did you start this thread with any other intention than trying to cause a row?

Well congratulations because I will now be accussed of 'spaming' and you'll be hailed as a true 'Communist'.

[Cassius Clay]

Well since I've got more time on my hands then I orginally thought I'll respond to these points now.

'Maybe I missed something in either of their ideologies!'

Yes you did, a 'Stalinist' (or Marxist-Leninist) among other things beliefs in socialist democracy. See that democracy not 'Authoritarianism' save that for Trots and NB's.

''concentration camps and gulags were very similar. both held mainly innocent victims for the sake of slave labour. they are both proven fact also.''

Rubbish. 'Proven fact' so go ahead and provide some hard evidence. 'Innocent victims' well ofcourse some people are innocent, not one legal system in history is perfect. But since the vast majority of those held in the 'Gulag' (fancy name for a prison, oh yeah I forgot the USSR isn't allowed to have criminalls like the 5.5 million currently in U$ jails which is 3 million more than the USSR ever had) were murders, rapists, criminalls etc etc to call them 'innocent' is the worst propaganda trick.

Oh and 'Slave labor'.

''Sure, he said, we used forced labor to rehabilitate criminals, giving them training and material support. But he punctured the stories of 'slave millions' with precise figures. He noted: 'In all the camps (housing a total of over 60,000) the working day has been set at 8 hours for the convicts. While receiving ample rations, and also monthly wages from 20 to 30 roubles in cash, the amount of work required from the convicts did not exceed that of the free laborer' ''

Molotov.

[ireallyhadablackout]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 10:58 pm on Mar. 2, 2003
'My friend, if you are human then Stalinism is bad news for you'Socialsmo o Meurte

Could you possibly sunbstantiate that comment?

Stalinists (or rather Marxism-Leninism, Nazis; There is a wealth of difference. Nazis are rightist opportunists with interests entirely towards the domination of one man by another. Marxism-Leninism is the polar opposite.


I could go on endlessly....


chairman mao, you are correct in stating that "I could go on endlessly...

could this be our problem? yes, surely it must be!

for some time in my mind, i have carried the idea of begining a game on this site. one that will promote and encourage thinking in terms of "problem solving" and "solutions" only of course, im not as intelligent as most around here.

we are so inclined to dwell on the negative actions and thoughts of those before us, so much that one could say it keeps up blind and in bondage.

what this game would consist of is this:

one person or poster will do a simply analysis of one single event that produced a "negative" response...reaction (however) and then the next poster would be compelled to think of a "positive" that resulted out of the "negative" whether indirectly or directly, thus promoting the "answer" or "solution" and exposing it in a way that will prove "everyone has at least one truth" that all of us can learn from the mistakes and actions of others then move on...

i find it ridiculous that we shut out anyone who has not managed to provide a "walk on water" type (perfect) answer to the current issues at hand. of course, before a "negative" scenario is introduced the author would be required to state in simplified terms two or three objectives consisting of; the identification of elements involved, their definition, and the sole function of the entities without contradiction or room for generalisation.

im not advocating that there is a "magical" solution...ha ha that would be too difficult for some to concive especially since many believe that they evolved from "no culture or heritage" of significant importance.

i grow weary of the same mind set day after day after day. hell, i would much rather see brainstorming the size of the moon way out in left space than to see the limitations brought on by the "intellectual minds" (of course, they (minds) are much appreciated, otherwise how would some of us learn?)

at present, i am analysing both theories of Stalin and Lenin as it pertains to marx and what i am finding is that there definately was some "magical" events going down in the "minds" of these men and it is truly facinating!

(Edited by ireallyhadablackout at 9:48 am on Mar. 3, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

'How can you say that only the bourgeoisie had their opinions taken away! Everyone was repressed. And even if it was only the bourgeoisie who had their opinions taken away, this is a bad thing and a Hitler thing too. Why is it different to irradicate rights of Jews than it is to irradicate the rights of bourgeoisie? And dont splurt out your Maoist/Stalinist/Communist explanation for the hatred of the bourgeoisie, because Hitler had his reasons for hating Jews. Both are immoral, both are unjust.'

'Whoever sides with the revolutionary people is a revolutionary. Whoever sides with imperialism, feudalism and bureaucrat-capitalism is a counter-revolutionary. Whomever sides with the revolutionary people in words only but acts otherwise is a revolutionary in speech. Whoever sides with the revolutionary people in deed as well as in word is a revolutionary in the full sense.' Mao Zedong

It is those guilty of bourgeois though that are the enemies of the working class.

Hitler's reason for hating Jews centred around an idealistic metamorphisist analysis of history. I consider this to be highly incorrect, I would think it beneficial to the masses to suppress people such as Hitler and his ideas. His means by which he suppresses are far worse, people were killed regardless of any trial, masses of people. Jews were killed because of their creed, he believed it is right, I believe it is wrong.

'Of course the USSR displayed colonialist and imperialist tendacies. Post-war eastern europe. How can you deny this was imperialism.'

Stalin died in 1953, I am not debating the USSR after that period.

'concentration camps and gulags were very similar. both held mainly innocent victims for the sake of slave labour. they are both proven fact also.'

Was a concentration camp like this then? I do not think so:

This is a quote from Sabina Dmuchowski, who in 1940 lived in an NKVD run Gulag for over a year, from an article that recently appeared in the financial times.

'My memories of Karabash..... Yong poles played with local children and went to the woods to gather wood.'
'Each family was given one room, with a stove and two wooden beds.'
'There was no barbed wire.... not allowed to leave without permission.'
'The children.... were obliged to attend Russian schools.'

'the Nazis annexed a lot of land. especially with German speaking people. they also invaded god knows how many countries to impose there will. Stalin annexed the Baltic States at gun point and used his will too rule over eastern Europe.'

You are indeed correct of the Nazis, however not of the Soviet Union. This too has been argued ceaselessly by Cassius Clay with a wealth of evidence.

'Hitler was one step off a self appointed god in Germany and Stalin wasn't too far behind in the personality cult status. even if he, so i'm told, didn't like it. in fact, both men were only outdone by founder of Juche himself- Kim Il Sung.'

There is a love in the DPRK, of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il. People greatly respect their leader, they admire his contributions to Korea greatly. They have followed arduous struggle with him. You would have to be more specific as to precisely what you mean by personality cult.

'Chairman Mao, the evidence is there. You're trying to justify Stalin's actions with your Stalinist views. Just as any Nazi could justify Hitler's actions with their Hitlerist views.'
It is very easy to justify Stalin's actions, I am a Marxist-Leninist, Stalin was too.

Nazis agree with what you say Hitler did, racial genocide etc. They also agree with it. I am not agreeing with what you are saying of Stalin. Is it not interesting that we would both argue against Hitler, however you say that my views are similar to Nazi views. I find that somewhat offensive, you saying that my views equate to those of a prejudice, ignorant, racist thug.


ireallyhadablackout, I agree with what you say there....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I wasn't comparing ideologies. I said that before.

You said you didnt want to debate after 53 because Stalin died.....post-war is after the war. After the war, Stalin trounced over eastern europe with imperialist might.

Just as you believe irradicating the bourgeousie is right for certain reasons, Nazi's believed their reasons were correct for irradicating Jews. What I am saying is that forgiveness is not apparent in either. Not an incling of it. Therefore, diplomacy and democracy cannot even begin. I cannot answer all your arguments now as I haven't the time. Maybe later.

[socialist2000]

The USSR was a brutal police state?, do you have an evidence of this? You are merely subscribing to the view of the western propertied class.



I cant prove graverty exists but that does not mean i float around.

[Cassius Clay]

Regarding Stalin's so called 'Imperialism' after the war, incase you forgot I'll remind you about the example of Yugoslavia in 1948.

Did the Red Army come crashing through? No ofcourse they didn't Stalin and the Comintern merely pointed out Tito's mistakes and where they would lead to and to return to the correct path of building socialism.

Socialist2000 what kind of argument is that?

[socialist2000]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 7:31 pm on Mar. 3, 2003
Regarding Stalin's so called 'Imperialism' after the war, incase you forgot I'll remind you about the example of Yugoslavia in 1948.

Did the Red Army come crashing through? No ofcourse they didn't Stalin and the Comintern merely pointed out Tito's mistakes and where they would lead to and to return to the correct path of building socialism.

Socialist2000 what kind of argument is that?

Sorry, its just an expression. It means that just because you cant prove somthing ie graverty, stalins crimes. Does not mean they dont exist. I mean its common knowlage that stalin was a ruthles dictator, how can you denie it. Their are hundreds of eye witness accounts ect.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from socialist2000 on 5:47 pm on Mar. 3, 2003



The USSR was a brutal police state?, do you have an evidence of this? You are merely subscribing to the view of the western propertied class.



I cant prove graverty exists but that does not mean i float around.


You can to a all reasonable interpretations prove gravity exists, although obviously what you are saying is just an expression.

Its common knowledge to those who believe the bourgeois lies. Many of us however, who have knowledge in the subject, have a more realistic analysis.

[suffianr]

Er, back to the topic.

I think neo-Nazi's aren't allowed in for purely practical reasons; their dismal track record on this site belies the fact that they are mostly spammers & trolls and are almost always guilty of serving up huge amounts of extremist right-wing propaganda.

Plus, they're manners are shite.

[Kapitan Andrey]

I think they are alost same!!!

[smith196]

Quote: from suffianr on 1:08 am on Mar. 4, 2003
Er, back to the topic.

I think neo-Nazi's aren't allowed in for purely practical reasons; their dismal track record on this site belies the fact that they are mostly spammers & trolls and are almost always guilty of serving up huge amounts of extremist right-wing propaganda.

Plus, they're manners are shite.


Most Nazi's only do this because they know they will be banned as soon as they are discovered. If you didn't automatically ban them then they would probably debate in a decent and intelligent way.

On the other hand some do just come to annoy yuo and pour scorn on your beliefs.

[Cassius Clay]

''its common knowlage that stalin was a ruthles dictator, how can you denie it.''

'Common knowledge' amognst whom? Trotsky, Capitalists, Nazis, Zionists?

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/

[socialist2000]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 5:52 pm on Mar. 4, 2003
''its common knowlage that stalin was a ruthles dictator, how can you denie it.''

'Common knowledge' amognst whom? Trotsky, Capitalists, Nazis, Zionists?

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/




Ehat makes you think that what i am about to post and what you have posted is biased.

Read this Stalin Fans, pages 6-7 please. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stalin/stalifla.htm)

(Edited by socialist2000 at 6:18 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)

[Cassius Clay]

Socialist2000 do you actually take that link seriesly?

A BBC article written by a GCSE student who has done little research and bases his or her conclusions on what there school text books say is hardly credible.

I have responded to the pacific points that article raises before and quite frankly I can't be bothered to do it again.

Just one though, '7 million dissapeared' LOL this is rubbish. The USSR only ever had a maximum of 2.5 million people ever in prison and I believe that was after the war. The vast majority of these were normal criminalls.