Land concessions in the Middle East

[graffic]

I think Israel should hand East Jerusalem over to the Palestinians in exchange for the West Bank.

East Jerusalem already has an overwhelming Arab majority, so they should just hand it over to the PA and be done with it, rather than militarily occupying parts of the Old city which feeds Arab-Jewish tension.

Israel should then grant Palestinians citizenship in the West Bank..

What are your opinions on this?

[PigmerikanMao]

It's a stupid idea, but that's just my opinion. :)

1) Quite frankly, the West Bank is also a large center of the Palestinian diaspora, why would they give this land up in exchange for the same semi-autonomy of a much more encircled, confined, space?
2) With the broad majority of East Jerusalem Arab, why should the PA negotiate for Israel to relinquish control of it anyways? We've all heard of popular sovereignty here, why can't the PA just rightfully take East Jerusalem?
3) Who the hell said Israel had the right to occupy any Palestinian lands to begin with?

~PMao :rolleyes:

[Killfacer]

i think: "why didnt anyone else think of this?"...

[Bud Struggle]

The West bank should belong to the Palestinians--they besides for small enclaves of Israelis-are the only peole living there.

Jerusalem is the big problem. While East Jerusalem is mostly Arab the Israelis are just never going to give it up. And neither will the Palestinians. Hence; war forever and ever, Amen.

[danyboy27]

I think Israel should hand East Jerusalem over to the Palestinians in exchange for the West Bank.

East Jerusalem already has an overwhelming Arab majority, so they should just hand it over to the PA and be done with it, rather than militarily occupying parts of the Old city which feeds Arab-Jewish tension.

Israel should then grant Palestinians citizenship in the West Bank..

What are your opinions on this?

i agree on all that, but the main problem here is that the israeli will never allow the arabs to control jerusalem, mainly beccause they think this place is more valuable for their culture than it is for the arabs, and the arabs think the same.

and even if the israeli would make that deal, palestinian would refuse beccase they lost so much since israeli independance, its like if you where giving them the cherry and that you would keep the cake.

a pragmatic nation would accept, but the palestinians are everything but pragmatic, and quite determined to get even since decades, i mean, look at this shit they are making rpg and grenade with car spare part.

i say, it would be much more simple if we would just give them all a big fucking check, a unrestricted passport, the israeli citizenship and 1 million dollars each. then if they are pissed at the israeli they could go and leave for another arabs country where they would live better, and prosper more.
they would i think prosper better, and will not end like the indian in america, stuck in tiny reserves.

but so far, looking how its goes in palestine, i predict that the gaza strip gonna be used in the futur to test lunar vehicules, beccause the whole place gonna look like the moon, full of crater, with a shitload of sand.

[graffic]

3) Who the hell said Israel had the right to occupy any Palestinian lands to begin with?


We (the UK and US) did, because the Jews deserve self-determination. And the premise that the land is "Palestinian" is racist.

Israel should be how it was after the six - day war, maybe without Gaza, most Israelis couldnt give a fuck about Gaza. 25% of Palestinians can live in Israel if they wish, and the rest can be resettled in neighbouring Arab lands.

Thats an ideal scenario though..

More realistically they (Palestinians) should have a state occupying half the West Bank and maybe East Jerusalem, on a condition that they have no army of course.

[Dr Mindbender]

i think AT THE VERY LEAST, there needs to be a contiguous land bridge between gaza and the west bank. Palestine should not have to give up either territory, least of all gaza which is reported to have gas supplies which would make up the mainstay of a future palestinian economy.

My 'likely' solution would be some sort of dual muslim-jewish power sharing state with equal parliamentary representation in a united jerusalem, similar to the arrangement in northern ireland.

Historically speaking though, Ideally Israel should dismantle and hand over soverignty to the palestinians, but thats the less likely scenario of course.

[PigmerikanMao]

We (the UK and US) did, because the Jews deserve self-determination. And the premise that the land is "Palestinian" is racist.

No, the premise that the occupied lands held by Israel was Palestinian is quite correct. I'd have to say that, if anything is racist, it would have to be the Zionist claim that Israel has a right to that land for reasons of "self-determination."
:laugh:

[Bud Struggle]

No, the premise that the occupied lands held by Israel was Palestinian is quite correct. I'd have to say that, if anything is racist, it would have to be the Zionist claim that Israel has a right to that land for reasons of "self-determination."
:laugh:

And I disagree here. To say a group fo people of one "nation" or "race" or "ideology" deserves a certain piece of earth over another group os people from another "nation" or "race" or "ideology" is far from being egalitarian. Really, if the Jews are in Israel--fine, just like the Spanis are in the US. Once they move in they belong there.

What should ideally happen is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians give up the notion of individual nationhood for their race and beging to live in some sort of cooperation on the same land.

It give the land to the Palestinians would be the same as giving back America to the Native Americans--nice in theory, but vastly unworkable.

To take land away from group X and give it to group Y that had it before is just reinforcing the old and very unworkable constructs of the past.

[PigmerikanMao]

--nice in theory, but vastly unworkable.
This is where I disagree ;)

[graffic]

My 'likely' solution would be some sort of dual muslim-jewish power sharing state with equal parliamentary representation in a united jerusalem, similar to the arrangement in northern ireland.


What would be the point when Israel already respects Muslim holy sites and allows freedom of religon everywhere.

[graffic]

No, the premise that the occupied lands held by Israel was Palestinian is quite correct. I'd have to say that, if anything is racist, it would have to be the Zionist claim that Israel has a right to that land for reasons of "self-determination."
:laugh:

Israel doesnt have a right to any land. Knowone has a "right" to any land, the Jews however, have a right to self -determination. And next to Jordan is the best and most significant place for the Jews to live and build their commonwealth just like every other nation in the world.

[Lynx]

There can be no concessions of any sort when people hate each other.

[Bud Struggle]

There can be no concessions of any sort when people hate each other.

And that's the crux of the problem. Though people do get over things--they did to a good extent in Northern Ireland, those people used to be as bad as the Israelis/Palestinians.

Any of you Irish care to chime in as to how things calmed down over there? A replay of Λυσιστράτη, I believe. ;)

[PigmerikanMao]

Israel doesnt have a right to any land. Knowone has a "right" to any land,

No, NO ONE does in the sense of land being a sellable commodity, however Palestinians have the right to the broad area to inhabit as they have lived there in relative peace for the past 15 centuries until the Zionist eyesore popped up with the help of Amerikkkan imperialism.


the Jews however, have a right to self -determination. And next to Jordan is the best and most significant place for the Jews to live and build their commonwealth just like every other nation in the world.

Bullshit, the zionists are using the idea of self-determination to slowly oust the native peoples of Palestine for the sake of not only creating an outpost of US imperialism, but to create a purely jewish state on racist identity. Fuck Israel.

~PMao :wub:

[Bud Struggle]

No, NO ONE does in the sense of land being a sellable commodity, however Palestinians have the right to the broad area to inhabit as they have lived there in relative peace for the past 15 centuries until the Zionist eyesore popped up with the help of Amerikkkan imperialism.

Bullshit, the zionists are using the idea of self-determination to slowly oust the native peoples of Palestine for the sake of not only creating an outpost of US imperialism, but to create a purely jewish state on racist identity. Fuck Israel.

~PMao :wub:

There is exactly NO DIFFERENCE between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Each want the land for their own particular race/religion. The land belongs to all people. The only answer is that they have to learn to co-exist with each other. You can't drive off the Israelis, just as you can't get rid of the Palestinians. The Whites in America can't get rid of Blacks in Alabama, and the Blacks can't say a White person can't move to Harlem.

Who cares who lived where for 1500 years or 15 years? People are where they are. and everybody just as to learn to deal with it.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Being Leftists, isn't this whole notion of arguing over who gets what land go against everything you all supposedly stand for?

[Bud Struggle]

Being Leftists, isn't this whole notion of arguing over who gets what land go against everything you all supposedly stand for?

They seem to forget in the heat of the moment. :lol:

[graffic]

however Palestinians have the right to the broad area to inhabit as they have lived there in relative peace for the past 15 centuries until the Zionist eyesore popped up with the help of Amerikkkan imperialism.

"Relative peace for 15 centuries".. Ha

I don't care how long the Palestinians have lived there, they could have lived in Israel if the Arab nations were not so aggresive and opposed to a Jewish state.



Bullshit, the zionists are using the idea of self-determination to slowly oust the native peoples of Palestine for the sake of not only creating an outpost of US imperialism, but to create a purely jewish state on racist identity. Fuck Israel.

~PMao :wub:

Why is the Jews right to self-determination considered "bullshit"? You've quite clearly been blindly swallowing reactionary Arab propaganda.

Palestinians also want a state based on racist identity, infact Israel isnt even a state based on racist identity, so fuck you and the reactionary Palestinian cause.

Why don't you parade around America calling for the Natives to come back? Or in the United Kingdom where the majority of people are immigrants?

I'll tell you why..

The Palestinian cause, heavily influenced by Islam, chooses to act like scumbags and kill innocent children on busses. Thus getting themselves into the news regularly and provoking debate.

[PigmerikanMao]

Why don't you parade around America calling for the Natives to come back?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68hvTGyYvY

[ships-cat]

OK... the Israel-Arab thing in a nutshell.

1) Israel was there first. The Kingdom of Israel, centred on Jerusalem, has a degree of both documentary and archeological evidence to "prove" its existence. (or at least, more so than any other tribe in the area).
2) The Arab's don't CARE about Jerusalem, other than as a bargaining chip. This talk of Jerusalem being a "holy site" in Islam dates back to about 1930, and is pure politics. If the Israeli's claimed that Chernobyl was important to them, then the Arabs would insist on taking control of it, and building a Mosque on the power plant, just out of spite. (hmmm..... a radical solution to the problem but... hey.. lets try it... )
3) Israel has more tanks and aircraft, and knows how to use them.

There we are. History, Religion, and realpolitik, all in three neat little paragraphs. Sheesh... why has everyone been making such heavy weather of it for so long ?

Can I have my bowl of Kippers and a Nobel Prize now please ? :D

Meow Purr. :)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

OK... the Israel-Arab thing in a nutshell.

1) Israel was there first. The Kingdom of Israel, centred on Jerusalem, has a degree of both documentary and archeological evidence to "prove" its existence. (or at least, more so than any other tribe in the area).

So did Hitler have a point by saying the German people had a right to were they lived anciently (Ukraine, essentially)?


2) The Arab's don't CARE about Jerusalem, other than as a bargaining chip. This talk of Jerusalem being a "holy site" in Islam dates back to about 1930, and is pure politics. If the Israeli's claimed that Chernobyl was important to them, then the Arabs would insist on taking control of it, and building a Mosque on the power plant, just out of spite. (hmmm..... a radical solution to the problem but... hey.. lets try it... )

Obviously, you don't know much about the issue in Islam.

Jerusalem, or al-Quds in Arabic, is where Muhammed and his steed ascended into heaven. The rock under him tried to go also, creating a cave and is now under "The Dome of the Rock."

Also, this is were hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived until the British decided they would be the ones to sacrifice for Germany's evil deeds.



3) Israel has more tanks and aircraft, and knows how to use them.


Yup. Say want you want about Israel, but nobody can deny that they kick ass, especially for the size they are. I worry about Lebanon, as many Israelis now say that if there's another conflict Israel will hold nothing back.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

They seem to forget in the heat of the moment. :lol:

Seems so.