Israel and Jewish Supremacy

[Chapter 24]

My mother's side of the family is predominantly Jewish; her mom (my grandmother) is a Jewish woman from Austria who escaped with her family in 1938 in the aftermath of Kristallnacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht) that married and American Jewish man from Chicago. Over the past decade she (my Omi) has been very active in Holocaust discussion groups and survivor groups, and has read more on the subject than probably anything else. She is a survivor of the brutality of Nazis, unlike many of her relatives who perished in Auschwitz. Because of her I know more on the subject than I ever would if she was not around to tell it.
Anyway, she's probably the best grandmother I could ask for. The problem is, her views on Israel are - for lack of a better word - fucked up. She believes that European Jews who survived the Holocaust were entitled to their own land where they could call home as part of a "national identity". This, I understand (although the Jews as a "nation" does not make much sense to me considering that one one hand the first Jews were supposedly descendants of Abraham and were Israelites, on the other hand does this supposed information even "exist" as absolute fact; and for that matter, is it even relevant considering Jews have become spread apart to the point where they are now of all nationalities, ethnicities, races, etc.).
However, she is a proud supporter of Israel and its development as a country as, how she regards it, "a tiny (not my emphasis, she always emphasizes the word "tiny") land that was once a dead piece of desert, and now it's blooming with remarkable achievements in the field of technology and others, while it's surrounded by many larger, hostile nations that only wish to destroy it." I asked her about the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict when I knew less about it and she said that, "You know, the Palestinians really have been screwed over in the whole situation. When they went to their supposed brethren in Arabic countries, they (the Arabs) only told the Palestinians to be angry at these 'terrible Jews' for what they did, and the Arab rulers never even tried to help them." I don't really know what to make of this.
In general, her support for the modern-day State of Israel isn't for its policies (which she says she doesn't "always agree with"), but the fact that it was built by Jews (though there is a difference between labeling the country as "built by Jews" and what it really was: built by Zionists). Jews, who have the technologists from all fields, who "made the desert bloom", who have created a state that Jews can call their own. She has a "thing" with believing that Jews, collectively, are not necessarily physically supreme, but just in general improve the world despite all of the anti-Semitism, and are constantly under the threat of the hostile Arabs. Now I'm not saying that Jews don't improve the world, which would imply that they make it worse. What I'm saying is that there's some kind of not-so-undertone, not-so-subtle (dare I say it) Jewish supremacy with her. Not that she treats all non-Jews as inferor subhumans, but that Jews are wise, smart people. If it isn't supremacy then it is arrogance.
Either way, I just want to know what I should say to her about all of this next time the subject pops up.

By the way, I thought it was relevant to include one of my posts on Zionism: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1170406&postcount=106

[Dean]

This, I understand (although the Jews as a "nation" does not make much sense to me considering that one one hand the first Jews were supposedly descendants of Abraham and were Israelites, on the other hand does this supposed information even "exist" as absolute fact; and for that matter, is it even relevant considering Jews have become spread apart to the point where they are now of all nationalities, ethnicities, races, etc.).

Don't forget that Palestinian Arabs were also descendents of Abraham. They have just as much right to the land (well more, since they lived there for the past 1500 years).


However, she is a proud supporter of Israel and its development as a country as, how she regards it, "a tiny (not my emphasis, she always emphasizes the word "tiny") land that was once a dead piece of desert, and now it's blooming with remarkable achievements in the field of technology and others, while it's surrounded by many larger, hostile nations that only wish to destroy it."Complete bullshit. It was created on land that was already inhabited, and it only thrives because of the hundreds of billions of aid pumped into it every year.


I asked her about the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict when I knew less about it and she said that, "You know, the Palestinians really have been screwed over in the whole situation. When they went to their supposed brethren in Arabic countries, they (the Arabs) only told the Palestinians to be angry at these 'terrible Jews' for what they did, and the Arab rulers never even tried to help them." I don't really know what to make of this. Really? Egypt isn't allowed to let the Palestinians in: when the border was opened and Palestinians poured in recently, Egypt was threated with losing USAID because Israel was agitated that the Palestinians were freed from their prison in Gaza.


In general, her support for the modern-day State of Israel isn't for its policies (which she says she doesn't "always agree with"), but the fact that it was built by Jews (though there is a difference between labeling the country as "built by Jews" and what it really was: built by Zionists). Jews, who have the technologists from all fields, who "made the desert bloom", who have created a state that Jews can call their own. She has a "thing" with believing that Jews, collectively, are not necessarily physically supreme, but just in general improve the world despite all of the anti-Semitism, and are constantly under the threat of the hostile Arabs. Now I'm not saying that Jews don't improve the world, which would imply that they make it worse. What I'm saying is that there's some kind of not-so-undertone, not-so-subtle (dare I say it) Jewish supremacy with her. Not that she treats all non-Jews as inferor subhumans, but that Jews are wise, smart people. If it isn't supremacy then it is arrogance.
Either way, I just want to know what I should say to her about all of this next time the subject pops up.

By the way, I thought it was relevant to include one of my posts on Zionism: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1170406&postcount=106I wouldn't argue it with her much. I would get a lot of facts together about the Nakba, about why ethnic nationalism is bad (just look at the IRA and the Ossetian crisis for instance), and about how it's not about Jewish identity - Noam Chomsky, Albert Einstein and Erich Fromm are all wonderful Jewish thinkers who oppose the militancy of Israel. Also, Churchill, a rabid anti-semite, supported Zionism because it would move the Jews from Europe, into a contemporary Ghetto: the state of Israel. You should bring up the point that it is offensive to the Jewish people to imply that they need to live apart from the rest of society.

In all honesty, the Jewish tradition has a lot going for it. The Torah is filled with some really beautiful ideas, and the Jewish tradition for centuries has been marked with a lot of very humanist, analytical thinkers. But this has little to do with Israel, quite frankly.

After you confront her with it once, I wouldn't talk about it with her. Make it clear that you know your sit and that you are against racial superiority, basically that you don't want to hear that type of crap. It is incredibly offensive, and if you make that clear to her, she might start thinking more fairly about it. But I wouldn't push the issue, I doubt you will have luck by arguing with her about it often.

[Yehuda Stern]

Really? Egypt isn't allowed to let the Palestinians in:...

Well, the idea that the reactionary Arab regimes didn't do anything to help the Palestinian struggle is correct and is very common among Palestinians as well. But this is not because of the nature of the "Arabs" but of the Arab bourgeoisie in the imperialist epoch.


In all honesty, the Jewish tradition has a lot going for it. The Torah is filled with some really beautiful ideas,

Well, if slavery and genocide are your cup of tea, I guess I can't argue with that.

[Dean]

Well, the idea that the reactionary Arab regimes didn't do anything to help the Palestinian struggle is correct and is very common among Palestinians as well. But this is not because of the nature of the "Arabs" but of the Arab bourgeoisie in the imperialist epoch.
I just wanted to make it clear that the Arabs are not doing this alone. The implication that they have more of a responsibility to help, apparently due to ethnic similarity, is really disgusting.




Well, if slavery and genocide are your cup of tea, I guess I can't argue with that.
Just playing Devil's Advocate. I never said there wasn't shit in there, too.

[Le Drapeau Noir]

Don't forget that Palestinian Arabs were also descendents of Abraham. They have just as much right to the land (well more, since they lived there for the past 1500 years).

Complete bullshit. It was created on land that was already inhabited, and it only thrives because of the hundreds of billions of aid pumped into it every year.

Really? Egypt isn't allowed to let the Palestinians in: when the border was opened and Palestinians poured in recently, Egypt was threated with losing USAID because Israel was agitated that the Palestinians were freed from their prison in Gaza.

I wouldn't argue it with her much. I would get a lot of facts together about the Nakba, about why ethnic nationalism is bad (just look at the IRA and the Ossetian crisis for instance), and about how it's not about Jewish identity - Noam Chomsky, Albert Einstein and Erich Fromm are all wonderful Jewish thinkers who oppose the militancy of Israel. Also, Churchill, a rabid anti-semite, supported Zionism because it would move the Jews from Europe, into a contemporary Ghetto: the state of Israel. You should bring up the point that it is offensive to the Jewish people to imply that they need to live apart from the rest of society.

In all honesty, the Jewish tradition has a lot going for it. The Torah is filled with some really beautiful ideas, and the Jewish tradition for centuries has been marked with a lot of very humanist, analytical thinkers. But this has little to do with Israel, quite frankly.

After you confront her with it once, I wouldn't talk about it with her. Make it clear that you know your sit and that you are against racial superiority, basically that you don't want to hear that type of crap. It is incredibly offensive, and if you make that clear to her, she might start thinking more fairly about it. But I wouldn't push the issue, I doubt you will have luck by arguing with her about it often.

Fantastic post. Great advice.

[Plagueround]

Your grandmother sounds like a wonderful woman who is also a product of her times and situation. While I don't know the relationship you have with her (it sounds like a good one), I wouldn't worry too much about debating it with her.

This summer, I went to visit the only grandfather I have left, who is dying of emphysema complications. Because he grew up in the World War 2 era, he made some rather nasty comments to my brother about the Japanese. I was floored by these comments, but I could only imagine what my brother, who is majoring in Japanese and dating a lovely Japanese exchange student, thought about what my Grandfather had just said.

My brother just simply said, "I don't think everyone is bad for the things their ancestors did." and then changed the subject. Once the awkwardness of the situation wore off, the rest of our visit was great. We have many opportunities to share our political and sociological views during our time here, but I don't know if starting a fight with a dying old man over these things is worth it.

Since it sounds like you see your Grandmother more than I see my remaining Grandparents, the subject may come up again. If it does, Dean's advice is dead on. Make it clear you don't share those views and don't push it too hard. Enjoy your Grandmother's company and thank her for the good she's done for you, but move yourself and others toward a more progressive future than the mindset of our elders.

[Chapter 24]

Alright, well I just got an email forwarded from my mom, which originally came from my grandmother... This is it:


The following letter from Laura Goldmeier, was published in today's
Post-Dispatch:

8/13/08
Changing the story

Recent infighting between Hamas and Fatah factions in the Gaza strip led to 188
Fatah supporters seeking refuge in Israel . Israel treated the wounded after
their path to Gaza 's hospitals was blocked by Hamas militants. If Israel had
blocked its hospitals to Palestinians, the story would have been broadcast
throughout the world, but the "pro-Israeli" Western press has not mentioned this
latest outrage.

Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank refused to allow its
supporters from Gaza sanctuary from Hamas. Mahmoud Abbas instructed Israel to return this group to Gaza , even though it is a certain death sentence.
The argument against Israel has been its "unfair" treatment of Palestinians, but
inhumane treatment of Palestinians by other Palestinians apparently is not
newsworthy.

It is not an accident that the Gazans fled to Israel , the one country that
would be fair to them. This is the same country that is wrongly accused of
mistreating the Palestinians. The reason there is no coverage of this story is
that it does not fit the narrative of Palestinian oppression currently embraced
by the media. When the facts do not match the story, it is time to change the
story.

What is this bullshit?? I don't understand this crap from certain Western Jews who think that there's some global fucking conspiracy against Israel. There's not. The western press is not "out to get Israel". The U.S. gives so much to aid to Israel it's not even funny. Just take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzXoiSB-WRI

I showed my mom this. She was pretty apathetic. I just don't understand. Why don't people understand that Israel is a client state for the U.S.? Why can't they realize this? And certain Jews under the perception that there's some sort of "western bias" toward Israel is ridiculous. It's kind of like how certain upper class white people feel they're losing power because of the liberal media.
They (my mother and my grandma) argue, "Well why do the Palestinian parties do this? Why don't the Palestinians raise themselves up?" I honestly don't know what to say to this. On one hand, I could say that Palestinians don't exactly have the means to raise themselves up, that they're not exactly receiving tens of billions of dollars like the Israeli government is; on the other hand, they'll probably think of some other reason why Israel is right in what it's doing - either that or claim that it's all just western media bias. Absolutely complete fucking bullshit.
Well, I'm going to forward the video to my grandma. I don't even care anymore. If she has a decent response to it, fine, but if she's going to somehow devalue the video based on some minor thing, then fuck it. As I said, I really don't care anymore.

[Revolutiondownunder]

Lightening, I would suggest that - in one way at least - your mum IS correct. I certainly perceive an anti-Israeli bias in UK television (and - to a slightly lesser extent - print media)


the papers are All Newscorp in my country {well pretty much], they tend to be pro Israel.

Not that I have noticed that much. Is there such a thing as Jewish supremacism? sounds like a fairly racist term to me.

[Holden Caulfield]

Is there such a thing as Jewish supremacism? sounds like a fairly racist term to me.
why any race/people can have supremacism apparent it, just because the Jews were once opressed does not mean they cannot themselves opress,

they crushed the palestinians which seems like Jewish supremacy to me,

[Chapter 24]

Lightening, I would suggest that - in one way at least - your mum IS correct. I certainly perceive an anti-Israeli bias in UK television (and - to a slightly lesser extent - print media) news reporting from the region. There is a tendency to accept Arab Palestinian or HAMAS testimony unchallanged, whillst minimising any Israeli government response. (next time there is a TV or Newspaper article, try comparing the amount of time - or column inches - spent quoting arab palestinian spokespeople, compared with that for jewish palestinians). There is also a tendency to present pictures and video such as to maximise the drama of any alledged Israeli attrocities, whillst minimising HAMAS/HEZBOLLAH attrocities.
All I can say is that it's not like how it's reported here. Israel is constantly defended in our news media.


As for the palestinian arabs not having "the means to raise themselves up"... the PLO received HUGE sums of money. Not as much as the palestinian Jews of Israel perhaps, but not small change either. (I've seen figures of between $10 billion and $80 billion, as I mentioned in my earlier post). The Israeli government used their aid money to build - and defend - a nascent nation. What did the arab palestinian leadership do with THEIR money ? Again, your mum raises a valid question here.
That's the thing though, I'm not defending the interests of these organizations and parties, I am for the liberation of the 4.25 million+ refugees without a homeland thanks to the exoduses carried out by Zionist militas. There needs to be a one-state solution in which Jews and Palestinians live equally, not an apartheid state like Israel.


Lightening, you state that "I really don't care anymore", presumably in the sense of your feeling frustrated at your relatives seeming lack of sympathy towards your position, and the evidence you present to support it. But have you considered that your evidence is simply not compelling ?
Well first off, I said that out of frustration because I just received the email, or rather I just noticed that I received on the previous day. It was a forward from my mom who originally got it from my Omi. My mother and I just talked about the issue that previous weekend, which meant she knew what my position was and yet sent it anyway. She clearly wanted me to have a different side to the "way in which Palestinians work." But that's the thing: I already explained to her that I'm not defending these parties supposedly representing the interests of Palestinians, nor the reactionary theocratic dictatorships that oversee Arab states. So I was frustrated because she already knew my position yet sent me an email that she probably concluded to herself would change my mind on the subject.
She read the email I sent back to my Omi, and all she said was, "It was very well written. It's just that it's a really complicated subject and there's a lot to it to look at."
...Yeah. That's why I'm not blindly making excuses for Israel like you are.
Ugh. :glare:

[Revolutiondownunder]

they crushed the palestinians which seems like Jewish supremacy to me


Yes but I mean as an ideology.

I really dont know enough about the issue I fear.

[Yehuda Stern]

I don't like using the term 'Jewish supremacism' because it's used by neo-Nazis mostly. But of course that the Zionist state, including all its parties, is racist, and that rights are accorded in an ethnocratic fashion.

[Revolutiondownunder]

I don't like using the term 'Jewish supremacism' because it's used by neo-Nazis mostly. But of course that the Zionist state, including all its parties, is racist, and that rights are accorded in an ethnocratic fashion.

Have you got any links, id like to know more.

[Sentinel]

Ships-cat's replies moved here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/israel-palestine-conflict-t87539/index.html?t=87539).

[redSHARP]

i want to know the opinion of the common palestinian and israeli (both jewish and non-jewish) about all this war bull shit. the hardlining right wing in both countries are bleeding it red (dont get me started about the USA being involved).

[Yehuda Stern]

Have you got any links, id like to know more.

About neo-Nazis using that term or about Zionism being racist?


i want to know the opinion of the common palestinian and israeli (both jewish and non-jewish) about all this war bull shit.

Are you talking about a war against Iran? Common Jews aren't particularly enthusiastic about war, but they see no other choice due to their dependence on imperialism. Most of them will support the war, if not as proudly as they would have in the past. Palestinians would generally, of course, oppose such a war.

If you're talking about a war of Israel against the Palestinians, most Jews support the actions of the Israeli army against the Palestinians without too much thought. As for the Palestinians you can probably guess.

[Prisoner#69]

Don't get me wrong. I come from a strict Jewish family and hear these issues all the time. IMO Jews believe they're entitled to Israel because they were so brutally wiped out during WWII. They believe, "because we've been fucked up so bad over the years we have the right to walk over everybody else".

[progressive_lefty]

Many Jewish lefties often refer to the fact that Jews were 'traditionally liberal' in an early time, as opposed to the current popular support a right-wing Israel recieves from many Western Jews. I think it's irrelevant to claim Jews are naturally leftwing and therefore are incompatible with the state of Israel. You can argue that point for or against with any race, its irrelevant to the conflict.
It's also claimed that the original motives of Zionism was not complete removal of Arab neighbours.

[Additonal Pylons]

One needs to look as far a the Death Toll on Civilians and Refugee Count to see who is the villain in this conflict.

[counterblast]

The truth is -- both groups use cultural and religious justifications to somehow suggest they exclusively own Palestine. If it were up to the leadership of either group, Palestine would remain a segregationists wet dream.

Its true that the Palestinians are unequivocally the oppressed group in "Isreal". But don't let your objection to this oppression cloud your judgement into thinking Palestinians "have a right to the land".

Colonization and aparteid-like practices must be shunned; but they cannot be replaced by equally nationalistic claims of "cultural ownership".

[Yehuda Stern]

Many Palestinian groups use nationalist and religious arguments to justify the Palestinians' right to the land, that much is correct. But the fact is that the land belongs to the Palestinian people and not to the Israeli colonialist settlers, the nature of arguments used by either group aside. This does not go to say that all Jews should be thrown into the sea - peaceful or revolutionary Jews will find their place in a Palestinian workers' state. But not those who deny the native people's right to the land.

[counterblast]

Many Palestinian groups use nationalist and religious arguments to justify the Palestinians' right to the land, that much is correct. But the fact is that the land belongs to the Palestinian people and not to the Israeli colonialist settlers, the nature of arguments used by either group aside. This does not go to say that all Jews should be thrown into the sea - peaceful or revolutionary Jews will find their place in a Palestinian workers' state. But not those who deny the native people's right to the land.

This was the broader point I was trying to make. Any "new Palestine" must be a truly radical, truly inclusive one. Most of the Palestinian "leadership" right now is more concerned with seeing the Jewish state along with the Jews in it, wiped off the map than assessing how radical Jews and radical Palestinians can/should be integrated into a single society..

[Yehuda Stern]

You're wrong. The problem with most of the Palestinian leadership is that it sees peace with the Zionists and their state as a real possibility, along with a Bantustan Palestine. The problem is that the Palestinian leadership is that it is reformist and pro-imperialist, not that it's too radical (this was in fact always the case, and the PLO's and Hamas' inconsistent use of anti-Semitic rhetoric was only a cover up for this).

[counterblast]

You're wrong. The problem with most of the Palestinian leadership is that it sees peace with the Zionists and their state as a real possibility, along with a Bantustan Palestine. The problem is that the Palestinian leadership is that it is reformist and pro-imperialist, not that it's too radical (this was in fact always the case, and the PLO's and Hamas' inconsistent use of anti-Semitic rhetoric was only a cover up for this).

Maybe I'm misstating my position -- my argument isn't that the Palestinian leadership is "too radical", but that it is reactionary and nearsighted. They are too quick to embrace "revolutionary" ideas and theory and apply them in a psuedo-revolutionary fashion. Whether they're choosing to negotiate with the "Isrealis" or leading an armed insurrection, its all irrelevant -- because the underlying motivation among the Palestinian leadership is to find the fastest, easiest solution to the occupation, and worry about all the complexities of the situation later.

[Yehuda Stern]

I understand, but I'm trying to phrase it in class terms - the Palestinian leadership is bourgeois and therefore is incapable of challenging imperialism. Therefore it can only try to fight for a privileged position in the imperialist order. That is how the PLO came from Shukeiri's "throw the Jews into the sea" rhetoric to Abbas' pro-Zionism.

[reddevil]

That is how the PLO came from Shukeiri's "throw the Jews into the sea" rhetoric to
i disagree with this position. jews have every right to reside in palestine, as does any other ethnic group for that matter. the problem is that they currently do so at the expense of the indigenous population.

[Yehuda Stern]

Well, to say that colonialist settlers have as much right to a land as the natives is indeed questionable, though I do recognize the right of Jews to live in a workers' Palestine as long as they don't attack the state by force. I don't see what that has to do with the quote, though - I brought not to show support for Shukeiri's statement, but to show that the PLO was always a pro-imperialist organization, even in the time of all the 'radical' rhetoric.

[Adam KH]

Well, to say that colonialist settlers have as much right to a land as the natives is indeed questionable, though I do recognize the right of Jews to live in a workers' Palestine as long as they don't attack the state by force.

The Jews could have immigrated to Palestine peacefully and simply used the good deal of unoccupied space for settlements. Dragging the Palestinians from their homes, forcing them into camps, and establishing an apartheid government was completely unnecessary. It did more to release the Zionists' anger and perpetuate the cycle of injustice than accomplish any actual goal.

[Yehuda Stern]

That's sheer nonsense. The Zionists could not have colonized Palestine without expelling the Palestinians, otherwise they would not do it. To claim that that was just letting off steam is ridiculous.

[counterblast]

i disagree with this position. jews have every right to reside in palestine, as does any other ethnic group for that matter. the problem is that they currently do so at the expense of the indigenous population.

No-- appropriation always comes at the expense of the indigenous population and indigenous identity as a whole.

Whether you're talking about something as violent as an occupation such as in "Isreal" or "America", or something relatively "harmless" such as the Westernization of the kuffiyeh or "Mohawk" hairstyle among white radicals; you're still referring to the ignorance of (or lack of regard for) the ongoing exploitation by Western society (read:capitalism) to commodify and expropriate and ultimately assimilate people of color, especially those in the Third World to dominant white systems of thought.

Having a right to live anywhere or wear anything is one thing... but asserting that right to live somewhere/wear something in spite of or without regards to the cultural or racial significance is not only ethno-centric, but a flat out denial of white privilege.

[Adam KH]

That's sheer nonsense. The Zionists could not have colonized Palestine without expelling the Palestinians, otherwise they would not do it. To claim that that was just letting off steam is ridiculous.

There were Jews peacefully coexisting with the Palestinians before World War II, and the land was largely undeveloped. Why, exactly, could more Jews not have settled there without resorting to ethnic cleansing? And if the Zionists are not letting off steam, what would you say is their motivation for carrying out senseless acts of violence?

[Yehuda Stern]

There were Jews peacefully coexisting with the Palestinians before World War II, and the land was largely undeveloped. Why, exactly, could more Jews not have settled there without resorting to ethnic cleansing?

There were - but not the Zionists. The Zionists conflicted with the Palestinians from day one, which was inevitable, as their mission was to claim the land for themselves. In fact, the presence of Zionists is what disturbed relations between Jews in Palestine and the rest of the population, which were quite good beforehand.


And if the Zionists are not letting off steam, what would you say is their motivation for carrying out senseless acts of violence?

How else would they set up a state? The Palestinians weren't going anywhere - the Zionists had to 'motivate' them to leave. The land stolen from the Palestinians was, along with reparations from Germany, of extreme significance in the strengthening of the Zionist state and its evolution into an imperialist state.

[Adam KH]

There were - but not the Zionists. The Zionists conflicted with the Palestinians from day one, which was inevitable, as their mission was to claim the land for themselves. In fact, the presence of Zionists is what disturbed relations between Jews in Palestine and the rest of the population, which were quite good beforehand.



How else would they set up a state? The Palestinians weren't going anywhere - the Zionists had to 'motivate' them to leave. The land stolen from the Palestinians was, along with reparations from Germany, of extreme significance in the strengthening of the Zionist state and its evolution into an imperialist state.

You're reiterating my original point. I think you misunderstood me. I said it would have been possible for a large number of Jews to immigrate to Palestine peacefully, not that the state of Israel could've been established peacefully.

For example, huge numbers of Latin Americans emigrate to the US, yet somehow they do it without violently driving us from our homes and establishing an apartheid government on our soil. The Jews who came to Palestine after WWII were perfectly capable of showing this same civility, but instead they chose violence and control. That was my point.

I'm sure that, as a resident of Israel, you can understand why I don't use "Zionist" and "Jew" interchangeably.

[Yehuda Stern]

Few non-Zionist Jews ever tried to get to Palestine.