Why Socialism Failed and always will !!! - I like to beleive

[Bananaticoco]

Why Socialism Failed and always will !!!

"It is impossible for a government to micromanage the economy of a nation [PERIOD]"...and add what follows to this:

Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

"Useful Idiots" (as Lenin contemptuously called Western intellectuals).

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Why Socialism Failed
In a radio debate several months ago with a Marxist professor from the University of Minnesota, I pointed out the obvious failures of socialism around the world in Cuba, Eastern Europe, and China. At the time of our debate, Haitian refugees were risking their lives trying to get to Florida in homemade boats. Why was it, I asked him, that people were fleeing Haiti and traveling almost 500 miles by ocean to get to the "evil capitalist empire" when they were only 50 miles from the "workers' paradise" of Cuba?

The Marxist admitted that many "socialist" countries around the world were failing. However, according to him, the reason for failure is not that socialism is deficient, but that the socialist economies are not practicing "pure" socialism. The perfect version of socialism would work; it is just the imperfect socialism that doesn't work. Marxists like to compare a theoretically perfect version of socialism with practical, imperfect capitalism which allows them to claim that socialism is superior to capitalism.

If perfection really were an available option, the choice of economic and political systems would be irrelevant. In a world with perfect beings and infinite abundance, any economic or political system-socialism, capitalism, fascism, or communism-would work perfectly.
http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorp...ism/failed.html (http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/libertarianism/failed.html)

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The Collapse Of Socialism In U.S.S.R. & Eastern Europe &
The Failure of Fund-Raising In The U.S.
One of the pillars of socialist/Marxist theory is the THEORY OF ECONOMIC DETERMINISM. This theory says that ...
"The way man makes a living determines all human institutions."
Socialists believe and preach that capitalism and the profit motive corrupted man, and that if the production orientation changed to socialism, man himself would change: in other words,
"If you could change the way man makes his living (abolish capitalism) you would change man himself."
Socialists have a slogan: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." This presumes that everyone will work really hard, and then the government would divvy the production among the people.
THIS IDEA NEVER WORKED. People were not like the socialist picture. Similarly, one of the pillars of Fund-Raising in the U.S. is that FUNDS MUST BE RAISED BY VOLUNTEERS WHO WORK FOR NOTHING.
http://www.nhf.org/nacec/collapse.htm

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Why Socialism Must Always Fail: Ludwig Von Mises on Economic Calculation under Socialism
In the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, an entire army of "useful idiots" (as Lenin contemptuously called Western intellectuals) were proclaiming the superiority of socialism. Blind to the massive evidence of socialism's failure that started accumulating as soon as the Bolsheviks came to power, collectivists throughout the world were singing paeans to the wave of the future that would allegedly sweep the outmoded capitalist methods of production into oblivion.

"ONE TRADEMARK OF MARXISTS/SOCIALISTS HAS BEEN TO CONSTANTLY REDEFINE AND RECLASSIFY THEMSELVES. THIS IS DUE TO THEIR CONSTANT FAILURES. MANY OF THEM TODAY GO UNDER DIFFERENT NAMES (GREENS, ETC.), AND HAVE EVEN INFILTRATED THE LIBERAL RANKS CLOUDING THE ISSUES. MOST LIBERALS ARE NOT MARXISTS, BUT MOST MARXISTS WALK AMONG THE LIBERALS".

Furious over the fact that their envisioned utopia has collapsed in ruins, the leftists now seek only destruction. They want to annihilate the system that has produced the very prosperity, happiness and freedom that their system could not produce. That system is capitalism in a mixed-economy, the system of true social justice where people are free to produce and keep what they earn.

Wanting to change the existing system is however the umbrella under which all Leftists at all times meet. Even at the height of British socialism, for instance, British Leftists still wanted more socialism. That permanent and corrosive dissatisfaction with the world they live in is alone what makes people Leftists. That is all they have in common. They are extremely fractious and even murderous towards one-another otherwise (e.g. Stalin versus Trotsky). It is in describing his fellow revolutionaries (Kautsky and others) that Lenin himself spoke swingeingly of "the full depth of their stupidity, pedantry, baseness and betrayal of working-class interests" (Lenin, 1952). He could hardly have spoken more contemptuously of the Tsar.

They don't call it socialism any more, but that's what it is: you can't afford to be ignorant of what socialists really believe and their dismal track record in human affairs.

"THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS" by WC ...and naivete.

"People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There has to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters".
by Dwight D. Eisenhower

http://www.frontpagemag.com

http://www.geocities.com/bananaticoco

(Edited by Bananaticoco at 6:27 pm on Mar. 1, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

That is crap.

If you dont like socilism why are you here.

(Edited by AK47 at 6:32 pm on Mar. 1, 2003)

[Bananaticoco]

How is it crap? It's facts. How old are you? 19 or 20.
Show me where Socialism has worked and I'll show you the Easter Bunny.
As to what I'm doing here---don't you beleive in freedom of speech? Oh, oh, ---I forgot----you're a Marxist: Freedom of anything doesn't sit well with you Fascist-Socialists.

[Goldfinger]

Norway, Sweden, several old Christian communities, the Anarcho-syndicalist communes in Britain about 1000 years ago, many indigenous communities in America, and pretty much any religious anti-fundamentalist community.

Oh, and Christiania (not the city now known as Oslo)

I want easter bunny! Now! NOW NOW NOW NOW! I tell mommy:P

[von Mises]

Since when are Sweden and Norway socialist countries?

[Comrade Daniel]

SInce their goverment is quite socialist. That's why they got one of the best education systems in Europe.

[Just Joe]

East Germany had a very good economy with a high standard of living. people fled there for freedom reasons not economic. thats Stalinism for ya though.

China seems to be doing ok at the minute aswell and someones already mentioned Scandanavian countries. i think Socialism needs to inherit a developed Capitalist economy to work well. and its never done it.

(Edited by Just Joe at 7:25 pm on Mar. 1, 2003)

[Goldfinger]

Actually, Norway has started to move away from socialism, and the government is quite corrupt. Sweden on the other hand, are still democratic socialists.

[Pete]

MaxB I presume? Have you returned?

[Invader Zim]

I may be wrong but isnt canada socialist???

(if so can i have my easter bunny)

[Moskitto]

MaxB, you were banned because you posted the same articles 3 or 4 times, if you don't like the general netiquette of anywhere on the internet that you don't spam, unplug your computer and stop using it.

[von Mises]

But China is also moving to a more liberal society after Deng XIao Ping opened the markets in the eighties. Socialism is also on it's way out.

[Apprentice of Marx]

Quote: from Apocalypse When on 6:08 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
Norway, Sweden, several old Christian communities, the Anarcho-syndicalist communes in Britain about 1000 years ago, many indigenous communities in America, and pretty much any religious anti-fundamentalist community.


Im swedish and sweden is not socialistic

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Bananaticoco on 6:57 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
How is it crap? It's facts. How old are you? 19 or 20.
Show me where Socialism has worked and I'll show you the Easter Bunny.
As to what I'm doing here---don't you beleive in freedom of speech? Oh, oh, ---I forgot----you're a Marxist: Freedom of anything doesn't sit well with you Fascist-Socialists.


Actualy i dont follow marx's ideology.

[Comrade Daniel]

China alert misguided induviduals uprising, socailism isn't on the way out, how can you prove it is?

[Bananaticoco]

If you don't follow Marx's ideology, then you're not a Socialist (a dreamer). Sweden and other European countries are Mixed-Economy, not Socialist. Socialism leaves no room for private Enterprise. The U. S. is also a Mixed-Economy, although less than their European counterparts. I thought you guys knew what you were talking about.

[Just Joe]

Communism leaves no room for private enteprise. the USSR had private enteprise. Socialism means the state controls key economic sectors. Socialism wasn't invented by Marx either.

[Bananaticoco]

I don't like Marxism, but I agree with you on this: Although I like the Brits, I think they should leave Ireland to the Irish [PERIOD].

[Moskitto]

why do people think marx invented socialism...

[Goldfinger]

those people don't really think at all.

[Saint-Just]

Bananatico, I suspect that not even 'Old Friend'/Stormin Norman or Dark Capitalist would appreciate you comments. Firstly, it is macroemanagae, not 'micromanage'. Secondly, there are a number of who us who feel socialism did work and is still working. It workerd in the USSR, in China, substantial parts of Eastern Europe etc. and is still working in the DPRK and Cuba.

'don't you beleive in freedom of speech?' Bananatico

As it happens I do not believe in universal freedom of speech, however the majority of people here do.

'If you don't follow Marx's ideology, then you're not a Socialist (a dreamer). Sweden and other European countries are Mixed-Economy, not Socialist. Socialism leaves no room for private Enterprise. The U. S. is also a Mixed-Economy, although less than their European counterparts. I thought you guys knew what you were talking about.' Bananatico

You are very precise here. I agree.

'those people don't really think at all.' Apocalypse When

If you are a reasonable person, you know that is a banal and erroneous comment. Marxism or Leninism are hardly simple concepts. They are detailed objective analysis. I would not degrade Smith, Friedman or Hayeck or to whoever's views you subscribe to such a level.

'those people don't really think at all.'Bananatico

I think even Just Joe would admit its a little more complicated than that.

[Goldfinger]

what I ment was that there were socialists before Marx. But Marx sure did a whole lot of work to make things clear.

[Moskitto]

i wouldn't bother replying mao, this guy was banned and 70% of his posts were new topics, generally posting articles again and again, i counted 1 being posted 4 times.

[kitty43]

Canada is a mixture of socialism and democracy.....oops I forgot it must be a yankee talking again....

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Why Socialism Failed and always will !!! Tell me what you think south Vietnam:biggrin: ;)

[Pete]

Yes we are definitly not socialist in Canada. Compared to America, yes, but compared to Cuba NO!

So I must say MaxB that Cuba is flourishing. Not in the capitalistic sense so don't bring up any of that bullshit. It is measured on a different scale then Capitalist nations are.

[Som]

Quote: from Bananaticoco on 7:39 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
If you don't follow Marx's ideology, then you're not a Socialist (a dreamer).


Thats quite an odd statement to make, considering there were socialists long before marx, and quite a few that were contemporaries of marx, all with different theories and proposals.
Marx never even mentioned more than a few words on any specific socialist economy either.

Its quite easy to completly disagree with marx and still be a socialist.

[Anonymous]

CIA World Fact Book (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

Cuba Overview:

Fidel CASTRO led a rebel army to victory in 1959; his iron rule has held the country together since. Cuba's Communist revolution, with Soviet support, was exported throughout Latin America and Africa during the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. The country is now slowly recovering from a severe economic recession in 1990, following the withdrawal of former Soviet subsidies, worth $4 billion to $6 billion annually. Havana portrays its difficulties as the result of the US embargo in place since 1961. Illicit migration to the US - using homemade rafts, alien smugglers, or falsified visas - is a continuing problem. Some 3,000 Cubans attempted the crossing of the Straits of Florida in 2001; the US Coast Guard interdicted only about 25% of these.

Economy Overview:

The government continues to balance the need for economic loosening against a concern for firm political control. It has undertaken limited reforms in recent years to stem excess liquidity, increase enterprise efficiency, and alleviate serious shortages of food, consumer goods, and services, but is unlikely to implement extensive changes. A major feature of the economy is the dichotomy between relatively efficient export enclaves and inefficient domestic sectors. The average Cuban's standard of living remains at a lower level than before the severe economic depression of the early 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies. High oil prices, recessions in key export markets, and damage from Hurricane Michelle hampered growth in 2001. Cuba paid high prices for oil imports in the face of slumping prices in the key sugar and nickel industries and suffered a slowdown in tourist arrivals following September 11. The government subsequently depreciated the peso by approximately 30% and now aims for 3% growth in 2002.


GDP: purchasing power parity - $25.5 billion (2001 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 3% (2001 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $2,300 (2001 est.)


Just flourishing!

[Som]

And some little arbitrary statistics from the same site.
Televisions are a good measure, since they're usually just a general 'want'

In Cuba:

Televisions:
2.64 million (1997)

4.25 for person

In Argentina:

Televisions:
7.95 million (1997)

4.7 per person

Brazil

Televisions:
36.5 million (1997)

4.8 per person


Well, theyve got more tvs than some of their capitalist counterparts. Take that little bit however you like.

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 5:10 am on Mar. 2, 2003
CIA World Fact Book (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

Cuba Overview:

Fidel CASTRO led a rebel army to victory in 1959; his iron rule has held the country together since. Cuba's Communist revolution, with Soviet support, was exported throughout Latin America and Africa during the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. The country is now slowly recovering from a severe economic recession in 1990, following the withdrawal of former Soviet subsidies, worth $4 billion to $6 billion annually. Havana portrays its difficulties as the result of the US embargo in place since 1961. Illicit migration to the US - using homemade rafts, alien smugglers, or falsified visas - is a continuing problem. Some 3,000 Cubans attempted the crossing of the Straits of Florida in 2001; the US Coast Guard interdicted only about 25% of these.

Economy Overview:

The government continues to balance the need for economic loosening against a concern for firm political control. It has undertaken limited reforms in recent years to stem excess liquidity, increase enterprise efficiency, and alleviate serious shortages of food, consumer goods, and services, but is unlikely to implement extensive changes. A major feature of the economy is the dichotomy between relatively efficient export enclaves and inefficient domestic sectors. The average Cuban's standard of living remains at a lower level than before the severe economic depression of the early 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies. High oil prices, recessions in key export markets, and damage from Hurricane Michelle hampered growth in 2001. Cuba paid high prices for oil imports in the face of slumping prices in the key sugar and nickel industries and suffered a slowdown in tourist arrivals following September 11. The government subsequently depreciated the peso by approximately 30% and now aims for 3% growth in 2002.


GDP: purchasing power parity - $25.5 billion (2001 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 3% (2001 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $2,300 (2001 est.)


Just flourishing!

a terrorist organization giving out a factbook. it has to be good.

I'm sure the KGB did something very similar. Oh yeah, I'm sure it was fully loaded with full truths.

[synthesis]

Marx invented Scientific Socialism - the philosophy he arrived at from years of analyzing human history.

Socialists, technically or not, existed long before that. For example, Robert Owen, a bourgeois British industral magnate, set up several socialist communities in Scotland which prospered.

Marx called these people, those who thought that the bourgeoisie merely had a responsibility for the welfare of their proletarians, Utopian Socialists, and often mocked them. Marx, of course, thought that they were more intelligent than anarcho-capitalists such as Adam Smith and Thomas Malthus who believed that the bourgeoisie's only responsibility towards the proletariat was to turn a profit off them, and slightly more socially liberal capitalists such as John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham who believed that the responsibility of the bourgeoisie was limited to making sure that the proletariat wasn't living under the absolute worst of conditions. Still, Marx thought that the Utopians were misguided - since most of them were bourgeois themselves, they failed to realize that for the working class to truely depose itself of oppression, it needs to abolish private property entirely.

Even today, people, such as relatively liberal capitalists like Democrats, have not made this leap - but they will.

[Pete]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 11:10 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
CIA World Fact Book (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

Cuba Overview:

Fidel CASTRO led a rebel army to victory in 1959; his iron rule has held the country together since. Cuba's Communist revolution, with Soviet support, was exported throughout Latin America and Africa during the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. The country is now slowly recovering from a severe economic recession in 1990, following the withdrawal of former Soviet subsidies, worth $4 billion to $6 billion annually. Havana portrays its difficulties as the result of the US embargo in place since 1961. Illicit migration to the US - using homemade rafts, alien smugglers, or falsified visas - is a continuing problem. Some 3,000 Cubans attempted the crossing of the Straits of Florida in 2001; the US Coast Guard interdicted only about 25% of these.

Economy Overview:

The government continues to balance the need for economic loosening against a concern for firm political control. It has undertaken limited reforms in recent years to stem excess liquidity, increase enterprise efficiency, and alleviate serious shortages of food, consumer goods, and services, but is unlikely to implement extensive changes. A major feature of the economy is the dichotomy between relatively efficient export enclaves and inefficient domestic sectors. The average Cuban's standard of living remains at a lower level than before the severe economic depression of the early 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies. High oil prices, recessions in key export markets, and damage from Hurricane Michelle hampered growth in 2001. Cuba paid high prices for oil imports in the face of slumping prices in the key sugar and nickel industries and suffered a slowdown in tourist arrivals following September 11. The government subsequently depreciated the peso by approximately 30% and now aims for 3% growth in 2002.


GDP: purchasing power parity - $25.5 billion (2001 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 3% (2001 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $2,300 (2001 est.)


Just flourishing!


Dark Capitalist, I will repeat my self for you, Socialist nations can not be measured by the same standards as Capitalistic countries. This is saying how the freemarket cannot pentrate Cuba basically, and discussing Economic growth. Socialism is not about profit like Capitalism is. Cuba is flourishing in the Socialist sense, where America is 3rd world. Cuba has universal education, health care, and no homeless and low levels of poverty. America has private schools and universities, private healthcare, alot of homeless and high levels of poverty in comparison to the wealth of each nation.

.: Cuba is flourishing and America is failing horribly.

[Just Joe]

also, comparing Cuba to America is comparing country to country not system to system. the old Soviet Union had a better economy and standard of living to Ghana, but that don't mean Socialism is better than Capitalism based on that example.

[HankMorgan]

.: Cuba is flourishing and America is failing horribly.


Which explains why Floridians straddle a truck inner tube and paddle for Cuba.

[socialist2000]

Quote: from Apocalypse When on 11:23 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
what I ment was that there were socialists before Marx. But Marx sure did a whole lot of work to make things clear.


Yes like John Ball, and Robert Owen.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Shit not to Florida? So thats why we have so many imigrants/refugees from far right wing countries capitalist states whatever. O.K. I will conced there can be a high standard of living in capitalism...but at what cost? The low standard of living in most capitalist nations. It isn't really about capitalism vs communism. Its about wealth vs poor. Som poor try to make it, but can't others tried different solutions...so what if they didn't work, they wouldn't of with capitalism either, they just had less support. Cuba Succeeds when you think about the excellent educatio and probably the best health service in the world. Ever tried getting a hip replacemant in Britain? Takes almost as long as it does for a train to arrive.

[socialist2000]

I disagree with your description of Jermy Benthom (i take it you know about Edwin Chadwick as well) aims and goals.

He was a philosopher, who believed that the ideal system was that people should strive to create the greatest happyness for the greatest number, this meant that he beleived that people could only be happy when they were efficent (he was not really after profit only happiness). So he believed that the upper middle classes should do any thing to accomodate this.

I also disagree with your description of Thomas Malthus's aims. He was a Reverand who believed that with the current increase in population ect that recourses would run out and lead to a massive starvation ect. I would not really rate your description as entirely accurate. Thomas Mathus was not a political economist ect. He was mearly conserned with the state onf national recources, and believed that by increasing efficency ect (which enevatbly led to worker exploitation) the situation could be saved.

However this is all a matter of opinion rather than fact.

(Edited by socialist2000 at 9:38 pm on Mar. 3, 2003)

[Pete]

Quote: from HankMorgan on 12:03 am on Mar. 3, 2003

.: Cuba is flourishing and America is failing horribly.


Which explains why Floridians straddle a truck inner tube and paddle for Cuba.


Because they can't stand not being able to get rich at others expense. Che said that capitalism is like a wolf race. You only win by the failing of others. I say Socialism is like a wolf race with out the wolves...

[Pete]

BTW, did you even read my post? or did you cling to the last sentence?

[Blibblob]

AHHH! FLORIDA SUCKS!!! TOURISTS ARE EVIL!! DAMN THEM ALL!!!

Can I please move to Cuba? With the boycott the US has on them, there cant be that many Dirty Rude Bastard Americans there on vacation.

[RedRevolutionary87]

Quote: from von Mises on 1:34 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
But China is also moving to a more liberal society after Deng XIao Ping opened the markets in the eighties. Socialism is also on it's way out.




the name of this gtraitor doesnt deserve to even be mentioned, he drove china away from maoism he ordered the tanks on the beijing uprising...grrr

[Pete]

Liberalism does not entail unrestricted capitalism.

[thursday night]

Those fascist pigs and terrorists who probably deserve to die who flee to Florida are no heros. They are upper-class rich people who were old henchmen of Batista.

[HankMorgan]

CrazyPete, I read your post. Part of the fun of che-lives,
long may it prosper, is being a bit of a smart ass.

You're establishing a standard and then showing that by that standard Cuba is doing better than the US.

You have your standard and I have mine.

The freer the society, the greater the range of success and failure of the people. This is the case in the United States.

I don't begrudge the success of others. I realize that their success makes life better for everyone. For example, if a farmer comes up with a better way to grow a crop, everyone benefits. The fact that the farmer's goal was to make a buck doesn't bother me because I understand that there has to be a motivation. Without motivation, nothing happens. (Damn that's profound)

I judge a society by its ability to allow a person to achieve success , by its ability to motivate that success and by how often success is attained.

My standard is already in a human being at the time of birth. That's why the leaky row boats and truck tire inner tubes are paddled from Cuba to the US. Whenever people vote with their feet, it's away from socialism.

Henchmen of Batista? Bah!!!