Protect freedom - Sign this petition

[concerned]

www.studentsforwar.org

[Anonymous]

Signed it.

[Liberty Lover]

I'm on my way

[Xvall]

I should make a flash like that!

No one thought 9/11 would happen.

(Flash to pictures of Salvador Allende's dead body.)

Imagine what could happen if the United States obtained Nuclear Weapons.

(Flash to pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

TOO LATE!

[canikickit]

Nice one Drake.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 4:26 am on Mar. 1, 2003
I should make a flash like that!

No one thought 9/11 would happen.

(Flash to pictures of Salvador Allende's dead body.)

Imagine what could happen if the United States obtained Nuclear Weapons.

(Flash to pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

TOO LATE!


Again with the lefty bullshit. Blame everything on America. Japan tries to take over the world...America's fault!!! Saddam invades Kuwait...America's fault!!! The sky isn't the colour you want it to be...America's fault!!!

[Sol]

It doesn't even make a case for war. How many signatures have you gotten? Just curious, but did it ever occur to you people that diplomatic action should come BEFORE talk of military action?

But ya know, maybe you're right; maybe if we don't take him down now it WILL turn out like Hitler. Maybe Saddam will unleash some massive blitzkrieg and occupy the entirety of the Middle East. You know, because they're the exact same situation and everything...

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Sol on 4:51 am on Mar. 1, 2003
It doesn't even make a case for war. How many signatures have you gotten? Just curious, but did it ever occur to you people that diplomatic action should come BEFORE talk of military action?

But ya know, maybe you're right; maybe if we don't take him down now it WILL turn out like Hitler. Maybe Saddam will unleash some massive blitzkrieg and occupy the entirety of the Middle East. You know, because they're the exact same situation and everything...

1.I think 12 years of diplomacy is quit enough

2.Actually the two are in similar postions
Both ruled by insane dictators
Both recently defeated
Both in financial ruin
Both being appeased by France
Both ignoring resolutions intented to ensure they don't re-arm

[canikickit]

Again with the lefty bullshit. Blame everything on America. Japan tries to take over the world...America's fault!!! Saddam invades Kuwait...America's fault!!! The sky isn't the colour you want it to be...America's fault!!!

No. The US was responsible for both the acts he mentioned.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from canikickit on 5:01 am on Mar. 1, 2003

Again with the lefty bullshit. Blame everything on America. Japan tries to take over the world...America's fault!!! Saddam invades Kuwait...America's fault!!! The sky isn't the colour you want it to be...America's fault!!!

Are you going to provide me with any evidence of that?

No. The US was responsible for both the acts he mentioned.

[Liberty Lover]

I'll say that again

Are you going to provide me with any evidence of that?

[Pete]

Read a book of history. Japan was seeking to surreneder, America knew that. Allende was over thrown by American trained terrorists.

[Liberty Lover]

"Japan was seeking to surreneder, America knew that."

There is no evidence to suggest that the nips were seeking to surrender. They had practicaly fought to the last man at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The psychological impact of the atomic bombs were what caused the eventual Japanese surrender. The alternative was to invade the Japanese mainland...That would have caused the deaths of many millions as opposed to the approx. 240 000 deaths that resulted from the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"Allende was over thrown by American trained terrorists."

While the CIA have admitted they supported the Pinochet coup...there is no evidence to suggest they initiated it.

I suggest you "Read a book of history."

[synthesis]

There is no evidence to suggest that the nips were seeking to surrender.

Idiot.

source (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/HiroshimaNagasaki.html)

"The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, set up by the War Department in 1944 to study the results of aerial attacks in the war, interviewed hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, and reported just after the war:

“Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to December 31 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”

But could American leaders have known this in August 1945?

The answer is, clearly, yes. The Japanese code had been broken, and Japan’s messages were being intercepted.

It was known the Japanese had instructed their ambassador in Moscow to work on peace negotiations with the Allies. Japanese leaders had begun talking of surrender a year before this, and the Emperor himself had begun to suggest, in June 1945, that alternatives to fighting to the end be considered."

While the CIA have admitted they supported the Pinochet coup...there is no evidence to suggest they initiated it

What?

The United States was directly responsible for the usurpal of the democratically-elected leader of Chile.

What more needs to be said?

[Liberty Lover]

That's a really reliable source youv'e got their dickhead.

The CIA have never admitted direct involvement in the pinochet coup.

[Old Friend]

It doesn't even make a case for war. How many signatures have you gotten? Just curious, but did it ever occur to you people that diplomatic action should come BEFORE talk of military action?

Those avenues have been exhausted. The threat of inaction weighs heavier than the threat of action. This organization makes some excellent points. I might go ahead and start my own chapter, on my own campus. I am sick to death of the disproportionate number of leftist pinkos presenting their side without the reverse.

[mentalbunny]

LL, you trust someone by what they say? Interestng, hmm, I wouldn't trust the CIA with anything, least of all the turth of their involvement in a coup.

[Old Friend]

"The CIA’s role in Chile was primarily to provide funds and influence opposition political parties. In 1971, a new covert action was approved to renew support to the PDC. In 1972, a new covert action project was authorized to provide support to the National Party and the Democratic Radical Party. CIA’s continuing financial support to the propaganda mechanisms described above was intended to continue media placements in support of opposition parties and against the Allende regime. The CIA was instructed to put the US Government in a position to take future advantage of either a political or military solution to the Chilean dilemma, depending on how developments unfolded.

The CIA continued to collect intelligence on Chilean military officers actively opposed to the Allende government, but no effort was made to assist them in any way. Some CIA assets and contacts were in direct contact with coup plotters; CIA guidance was that the purpose of these contacts was only to collect intelligence. As coup rumors and planning escalated by the end of 1972, CIA exercised extreme care in all dealings with Chilean military officers and continued to monitor their activities but under no circumstances attempted to influence them. By October 1972 the consensus within the US government was that the military intended to launch a coup at some point, that it did not need US support for a successful coup, and that US intervention or assistance in a coup should be avoided.

On 21 August 1973 the 40 Committee approved a $1 million supplemental budget to increase support for opposition political parties, bringing the total amount of covert funding spent during the Allende period to approximately $6.5 million. In late August the Station requested authorization to provide maximum support for the opposition’s efforts to encourage the entrance of the Chilean military into the Allende cabinet. The resignation of Army Commander General Carlos Prats (whose actions were strongly constitutionalist) and his replacement by General Augusto Pinochet (not a coup plotter, but apparently willing to concede to a coup) appeared to further unify the Armed Forces and strengthened the institution as a political pressure group. The UP Government appeared to fear a possible military coup and was unsure how to react to such a development.

The Station realized that the opposition’s objectives had evolved to a point inconsistent with current US policy and sought authorization from Washington to support such an aggressive approach. Although the US Ambassador in Chile agreed with the need for Washington to evaluate its current policy, he did not concur in the Station’s proposal, fearing that it could lead to a de facto US commitment to a coup. In response, CIA Headquarters reaffirmed to the Station that there was to be no involvement with the military in any covert action initiative; there was no support for instigating a military coup.

On 10 September 1973—the day before the coup that ended the Allende Government—a Chilean military officer reported to a CIA officer that a coup was being planned and asked for US Government assistance. He was told that the US Government would not provide any assistance because this was strictly an internal Chilean matter. The Station officer also told him that his request would be forwarded to Washington. CIA learned of the exact date of the coup shortly before it took place. During the attack on the Presidential Palace and its immediate aftermath, the Station’s activities were limited to providing intelligence and situation reports.

Allende’s death occurred after the President refused an offer from the military to take him and his family out of the country. Available evidence indicates that President Allende committed suicide as putchist troops entered his offices. A credible source on Allende’s death was Dr. Patricio Guijon, a physician who served on the President’s medical staff. Guijon was in the Presidential Palace, La Moneda, with Allende during the assault and claimed that he witnessed Allende shoot himself with a rifle. The Chilean National Commission on Truth and Reconciliation in 1991 also concluded that Allende took his own life. There is no information to indicate that the CIA was involved in Allende’s death."

Source: The CIA

"A quarter century ago, the Church committee on intelligence activities reported that it found no evidence that the CIA was directly involved in a 1973 coup in Chile that toppled socialist President Salvadore Allende and brought Gen. Augusto Pinochet to power."

Source:rememberchile.org (http://www.remember-chile.org.uk/comment/00-10-02wp.htm)

"There is no hard evidence of direct U.S. assistance to the coup, despite frequent allegations of such aid. Rather the United States - by its previous actions during Track II, its existing general posture of opposition to Allende, and the nature of its contacts with the Chilean military- probably gave the impression that it would not look with disfavor on a military coup. And U.S. officials in the years before 1973 may not always have succeeded in walking the thin line between monitoring indigenous coup plotting and actually stimulating it."

Source: 94th Congress 1st Session COMMITTEE PRINT; COVERT ACTION IN CHILE 1963-1973, Otherwise known as THE CHURCH REPORT

The purpose of the Church Committee, or the Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activites was to investigate the operations of intelligence services and to investigate abuses. In 1976, after the Church Committee report was published, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence was established to appropriate funds for military intelligence. One of its tasks is to provide direct oversight in the activities of the CIA, the NRO, the DIA, and the NSA.

I know everyone wants to point to U.S. intelligence agencies for every evil deed that has ever been done, and grant it there have been some abuses. However, the strength of our nation depends on the activities of these organizations, and their ability to gather information. Certainly, this may require relationships with some of the worst humans imaginable, but if we are to know what such people might be conspiring, this remains a necessity.

The workings of the intelligence networks of this country are highly complex and have had little oversight in the past. Measures have been implemented to curtail abuses that result from the lack of direct oversight, sometimes not for the betterment of our national security. This we have seen as the Toricelli Principle made it virtually impossible to use "shady" operators in the effort to develop human intelligence. The consequence of this idiocy has been indicated as the primary reason that our intelligence failed to protect us on September 11th, 2001.

Should we continue to suspect organizations that operate under the power of secrecy? Certainly. However, this should be done in a responsible manner, for our very lives depend on the resources and efficiency of such networks.

Efforts to undermine these agencies should also be suspect, as often times the agendas of those who seek to defile our military and intelligence communities are less than noble. More often than not people want to use examples like our involvement in Chile as reason for dismantling these machinations altogether. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the great harm the degenerates and the communists alike wish to commit in these efforts.

One thing is for certain; the threat of leftist ideology is more of a concern to me than the threat of having intelligence services. Probably the thing I fear the most is the combination of the two things. What if the left where able to acquire the government and use these tools to their advantage, like they did in the Soviet Union, or like they are currently doing in China. If we can develop the protocol for obtaining sensitive information, and the networking capabilities to minimize the loss of this information to our enemies, like we did during the cold war, we can certainly develop the means to minimize abuses and provide responsible oversight. I think this has largely been done. Of course, no system is perfect, but the thought of no intelligence weighs heavier on my mind in this day and age.

Ask yourself this. Under your proposed system of government, socialism, would the mechanisms have been developed to provide civilian oversight of such activities? Would the Church Report have been released? From what we have seen in the old communist block, and in China, the answer is no. Consider the fact that we have measures in place to guard against the abuses of intelligence gathering, especially considering our own citizens. In leftist governments, no such measures exist. In fact, the main scope of the information gathering by the government is to monitor the citizens within its borders. This is not the case in the United States, and I am thankful for that. God help us if your side wins, for the first thing a socialist government does is turn those devices inward on its own people. Consider that before you start barking about the United States intelligence services you miserable leeches.

(Edited by Old Friend at 2:04 pm on Mar. 1, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 4:50 am on Mar. 1, 2003

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 4:26 am on Mar. 1, 2003
I should make a flash like that!

No one thought 9/11 would happen.

(Flash to pictures of Salvador Allende's dead body.)

Imagine what could happen if the United States obtained Nuclear Weapons.

(Flash to pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

TOO LATE!


Again with the lefty bullshit. Blame everything on America. Japan tries to take over the world...America's fault!!! Saddam invades Kuwait...America's fault!!! The sky isn't the colour you want it to be...America's fault!!!


If you had not noticed Japan did not try to take over the world you moron.

But as those nukes are still killoing people today, dont you think it was a bit harsh to drop two nukes. But of course you dont care because you are a typical Cappie.

Many millions LL, i see that you have a strange ability to predict history which has not happened any thing you say that may have happened or could have happened is just an assumption, you dont know what could have happened. All what you say is speculation. And speclation is open to extream BIAS.

[suffianr]

There is no wisdom in warmongering.

[Blibblob]

MY EYES!!! THEY BURN!!! AHHH, MUST LEAVE DISGUSTING SITE!!! AHHHH!!!!!

Wow, SN has changed. If I remember right he said something about how we shouldnt go to war...

[Xvall]

Again with the righty bullshit. Blame everything on terrorists. No one in the country has a fucking job...Terrorist's fault! UN doesn't agree with everything the United States says...Terrorist's fault! The sky isn't the color you want it to be...Terrorist's fault!!!!!!

All joking aside; I never blamed America for anything other than being the only country in existance that has used nuclear weapons on a group of civilians. Maybe we should invade America; it is a potential threat. I never said that Japan and Saddam's imperialism were the fault of the United States. But it is your fault that the sky is becoming a sort of greensih-blue. That pollution isn't helping us out, Thomas.

[Xvall]

Both ruled by insane dictators

Saudi Arabia is ruled by a Monarchy; not very diffirent than a dictatorship; in fact, probably less democratic; since leaders are chosen by their bloodline, not their leadership abilities. Why don't you consider Saudi Arabia a threat for this reason.

Both recently defeated

Hitler was 'recently defeated' before he started World War Two? This is not true.

Both in financial ruin

And we're doing great; right? In actuallity, when Hitler was elected, he ended the financial ruin. Mainly by seizing all the money and belongings of undesirables.

Both being appeased by France

How did France appease Nazi Germany? How is France appeasing Iraq?

Both ignoring resolutions intented to ensure they don't re-arm

I will give you that one.

[Xvall]

On the topic of the Atomic Bombing. Here are quotes from people; several of them in OFFICE; that did not believe the Bombing was necessarry.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- Admiral William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

"The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

quoted from Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."

- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

"As far as his own life was concerned, one thing seemed quite clear. 'I made one great mistake in my life,' he said to Linus Pauling, who spent an hour with him on the morning of November 11, 1954, '...when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them.'".

Ronald Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, pg. 620.

[Moskitto]

France did not appease Nazi Germany, The French 1936 Olympic teams refused to do the Nazi salute even though Hitler asked them to, Britain and America did on the other hand.

[Xvall]

Thank you for the reminder, Moskitto. I remember those good ol' days. I remember one of those Nazi-American friendships marches that they had in New York before the United States was at war with Germany. It was interesting to see American and German soldiers marching side by side; each wielding their nation's flags; posters of George Washington and Adolph Hitler next to each other.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Moskitto on 6:34 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
France did not appease Nazi Germany


What a shinning example of your ignorance Moskito. France and Britain were one in their appeasement of Hitler. From 1933-37...Hitler broke numerous articles of the treaty of Versailles and the larcona pact, Hitler was let off with each violation in the hope he would settle down. The introduction of consription, the building of an air force, the occupation of the DMZ rhineland, reunification with Austria. Then in 1938 the betrayal of chezoslovakia and the signing of the munich pact in a last pathetic attempt to avoid war.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 3:59 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
Both ruled by insane dictators

Both recently defeated

Hitler was 'recently defeated' before he started World War Two? This is not true.


I meant Germany defeated in WWI and Iraq in the Gulf War

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 5:50 am on Mar. 1, 2003

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 4:26 am on Mar. 1, 2003
I should make a flash like that!

No one thought 9/11 would happen.

(Flash to pictures of Salvador Allende's dead body.)

Imagine what could happen if the United States obtained Nuclear Weapons.

(Flash to pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

TOO LATE!


Again with the lefty bullshit. Blame everything on America. Japan tries to take over the world...America's fault!!! Saddam invades Kuwait...America's fault!!! The sky isn't the colour you want it to be...America's fault!!!

Yeah, totally!!!
I kill Liberty Lover for annoying me...ApW's fault! It isn't fair!

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from AK47 on 12:25 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
[quote]

If you had not noticed Japan did not try to take over the world you moron.

But as those nukes are still killoing people today, dont you think it was a bit harsh to drop two nukes. But of course you dont care because you are a typical Cappie.

Many millions LL, i see that you have a strange ability to predict history which has not happened any thing you say that may have happened or could have happened is just an assumption, you dont know what could have happened. All what you say is speculation. And speclation is open to extream BIAS.


They tried to take over a significant portion of the world...including my part.

I came to the assumption that many millions would have died in a conventinoal invasion of Japan by examing past events of world war II.
1) The urban battle of Stalingrad killed one million people. In an ivasion of Japan Stalingrad style battles would have been repeated.
2) The invasion of the small island of Okinawa killed 222, 520 people. That was almost as much as the immediate and long term deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese defended Okinawa to basically the last man. There is nothing to suggest that determination would not have been repeated in defending the Japanese mainland. If it was Okinawa would have looked like a pub brawl.

[Goldfinger]

I acceed, i'll use a gun.

[RedPirate]

No War!

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from suffianr on 2:57 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
There is no wisdom in warmongering.


Are you trying to tell me Churchhill was wrong?

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from RedPirate on 11:04 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
No War!


You precocious poxy proletariat poonce prancing parasitically point to point, pontificating piece of pumped up pinko peacenikking pile of pungent pacifist piss!!!

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 11:15 pm on Mar. 1, 2003

Quote: from RedPirate on 11:04 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
No War!


You precocious poxy proletariat poonce prancing parasitically point to point, pontificating piece of pumped up pinko peacenikking pile of pungent pacifist piss!!!

Your so alliterate (get the pun?).

[RedPirate]

Just opinion... No need to get so American on me. Right Winger...

[RedPirate]

That pun was great...

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 12:15 am on Mar. 2, 2003

Quote: from RedPirate on 11:04 pm on Mar. 1, 2003
No War!


You precocious poxy proletariat poonce prancing parasitically point to point, pontificating piece of pumped up pinko peacenikking pile of pungent pacifist piss!!!

Go play with your stalinist comrades.

[Old Friend]

Wow, SN has changed. If I remember right he said something about how we shouldnt go to war...

Obviously your memory is as piss poor as your politics, Blibblob. Name one time where I have not advocated a war in Iraq. Your attempts to put words in my mouth are not only irresponsible, but I think they are meant to undercut the strength of the argument that I gave to support the activities of U.S. intelligence services. Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

I gave you ample evidence to support the assertion that the CIA WAS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the Allende suicide, and was only mandated to conduct the monitoring of coup plotters. Did a relationship develop between the CIA and Chilean intelligence, after the fact? Sure, as this was in our best interest. Was the CIA directly responsible for Allende's death or the plot to overthrow the government? No. In fact, they actually favored another group over Pinochet's. After giving you the story from the CIA and the oversight committee's perspective, I went on to support intelligence gathering. Finally, I compared our intelligence services to that of communist regimes, with respect to the privacy of citizens, further defending the integrity of the system we use. I do acknowledge that mistakes have been made in the past. However, our government's efforts to rectify and revise the protocols we use offers further evidence for the strength of the American system of government, and its ability to coexist with organizations that largely operate under a shroud of secrecy. Our intelligence services are one of the reasons the United States is the greatest country in the world.

(Edited by Old Friend at 12:52 pm on Mar. 2, 2003)

[Corvus Corax]

LL, are you really trying to suggest that only 250,000 people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? More people than that died in Hiroshima alone. There has already been a thread about the numbers, and 250,000 is well below even the lowest figures shown in a source. If the figures really were what you are suggesting, I don't think the Americans could find the places to bomb them!!

[mentalbunny]

The only reason everyone loves Churchill is cos he was British, he was defending his country, he didn't really give a shit about the politics, just the nationalities.

Americans are hypocrites, Brits think that being British makes all the difference. WWII was a shambles, just cos we weren't obviously Nazi we thought we were so much better, but we weren't.

[Old Friend]

Just to put it into perspective:

"The total death toll of World War II for both Allied and Axis nations is estimated to exceed 55 million, more than half civilian."-From second source listed

Deaths our atomic bombs caused account for roughly 1.26% of the total deaths resulting from WWII, and that is taking the upper estimates from 1950, and assuming that all Health Card carriers actually die from the fallout. As you can see our atomic bombs were only responsible for the loss of about 2.5% of the civilian casulties. When you weigh this number against the destruction that a continuation of a protracted war with the axis powers would have caused, it is easy to see what drove Truman's decision to use this kind of force. I am sure he did the cost benefit analysis, also factoring in the need to demonstrate our weapons superiority to the future Russian threat. I doubt Truman, Oppenheimer, the pilot who dropped the bomb, or anyone involved ever got another good nights rest, after this. However, I think they made the correct decision.

Here are two different sources for the numbers I used to determine the above percentage.

Hiroshima

"According to data submitted to the United Nations by Hiroshima City in 1976, the death count reached 140,000 (plus or minus 10,000) by the end of December, 1945."

"Persons qualifying for treatment under the A-bomb Victims Medical Care law of 1957 received Health Cards; holders as of March 31, 1990, numbered 352,550."

Nagasaki

"The atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki exploded at 11:02 A.M. on August 9. Using plutonium with an explosive power of 20 kilotons of TNT-equivalent, it left an estimated 70,000 dead by the end of 1945, although both population and the deaths are uncertain."

Source: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/ABomb/e/e_jap_1.htm

"Hiroshima: August 6, 1945, the uranium bomb, Little Boy, exploded at 8:16 a.m. Hiroshima time, 43 seconds after it left the B-29 Enola Gay, almost 2,000 feet above the ground. It had a yield equivalent to 20,000 tons of TNT. Everything within four square miles was destroyed.

Instantly Killed:
70,000
Instantly Injured:
70,000
December 1945 total death toll:
140,000
1950 total death toll:
200,000

Nagasaki: August 9, 1945, the plutonium bomb, Fat Man, exploded 1,650 feet above Nagasaki at 11:01 a.m after it left the B-29 Bockscar. It had a force of 21,000 tons of TNT. Everything within three square miles was destroyed.

Instantly Killed:
40,000
Instantly Injured:
60,000
January 1946 total death toll:
70,000
1950 total death toll:
140,000

These are the official statistics quoted in a 1994 U.S. Department of Energy document."

source: American Airpower Heritage Museum (http://www.airpowermuseum.org/trafter.html)

(Edited by Old Friend at 1:10 am on Mar. 3, 2003)

[RedPirate]

That is showing, some great facts. But the only thing I don't get Germany didn't have nuclear capabilities... and Japan why didn't we just drop the bombs on Military institutions...

[Goldfinger]

because then it would be imposible to slaughter thousands of innocent civilians:P

[Old Friend]

No one wants to challenge my defense of the U.S. intelligence community? Gee, for people who are so outspoken about how evil they are, I would expect more. I guess when you compare the intelligence community of the U.S. to those in communist countries, it puts it into a more balanced perspective. I find it amusing how quick you are to attack the U.S. version, but completely defend those in communist countries. It becomes easy to see your motives based upon this alone. You don't really care about abuses, or about the people who have been "disappeared". You only use these as excuses to weaken the strength of our nation, so that the cockroaches on the left can firmly establish a viable network in my country and elsewhere. Once your illness is entrenched in the population, your legions will overthrow the established system of rule, take over the intelligence services, and then turn them on your own people to ensure that a certain level of groupthink persists. This is truly sickening. Communists are truly sickening.


(Edited by Old Friend at 2:22 am on Mar. 3, 2003)

[Old Friend]

thing I don't get Germany didn't have nuclear capabilities... and Japan

Nope, Heisenberg failed. He had produced nothing when his team of scientists were arrested by allied forces.

[Sol]

Norman, I'm not sure we need to confront you on the nastiness of the CIA. You just admitted they supported the Pinochet coup. They didn't go in personally and shoot Allende, but they did actively provide funds and covert political backing. They knew damn well who Pinochet was and what the military was going to do after they took power.

And as far as the "national interest" excuse... bullshit. Allende was no threat to the US, only to US companies in Chile. So they backed a right wing, authoritarian dictator who butchered thousands.

And LL, please, keep telling me about how 1930's Germany/Hitler and Modern Iraq/Hussein are so similar. They're both insane, I'll give ya that.

The US has yet to engage in any kind of serious diplomacy to disarm Iraq and get that psycho out of power. We've slapped on sanctions and dropped some bombs. We've yet to work with the international community to bring real political pressure on Hussein. If we had, and he still refused to cooperate (which I know he would) I'd sign your petition. But as I said before...

The case hasn't been made. This is a war based only on political interest, not on human interest. Therefore, fuck Bush, fuck his war, and fuck your petition. :)

[RedPirate]

I know Germany failed. The thing is why now if we can have nukes.. no one else can....

[Old Friend]

You just admitted they supported the Pinochet coup.

Oh yeah, is that when I said this?:

"Was the CIA directly responsible for Allende's death or the plot to overthrow the government? No. In fact, they actually favored another group over Pinochet's."

Their mission was not to get involved in coup plotting, it was to push anti-Allende propaganda before the election, and then monitor coup plotting groups. They were specifically instructed to keep their hands off. Provide me any evidence that speaks to the contrary. Provide anything that refutes either the CIA's declassified documentation, or the Church Report. I think that you will be hard pressed to find one credible source that states anything other than the facts that I presented. Give me something that proves the CIA offered direct support for Pinochet.

(Edited by Old Friend at 7:39 am on Mar. 3, 2003)

[Rastafari]

Posted on the disagree side.
I don't think what you are telling us, as patriotic americans, to partake in is diplomatic or is intelligent in the least bit. Its sad that we have fallen to this paranoid state of affairs,where everyone who wont surrender their country to our bullyboy ways is deemed to be an enemy, and a threat. Only two Nuclear Bombs have been dropped that have done major damage to many people, and both fell from our planes.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Corvus Corax on 11:36 am on Mar. 2, 2003
LL, are you really trying to suggest that only 250,000 people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? More people than that died in Hiroshima alone. There has already been a thread about the numbers, and 250,000 is well below even the lowest figures shown in a source. If the figures really were what you are suggesting, I don't think the Americans could find the places to bomb them!!


Stormin Norman has already refuted your argument CC but I will point out that it is an impossibilty that more than 250 000 people were killed in Hiroshima by the atomic bomb when only 250 000 people lived there.

Source:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip29.htm

[englandsgay]

if japan was going to surrendor to readily why did it take 2!!!!!!!! nukes for them to do it. you would think they woulda after 1.

[Corvus Corax]

Yes but America had already spent billions of dollars making the new plutonium type A-bomb. And we all know America would rather kill millions of innocent people rather than not get their moneys worth.

[englandsgay]

what type of dumb lame and retarded argument is that. THAT is the DEFINITION of circular logic. AMERICA IS EVIL BECAUSE IT IS EVIL..
plz.. why even bother to post if thats all you can contribute.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from englandsgay on 7:35 am on Mar. 3, 2003
if japan was going to surrendor to readily why did it take 2!!!!!!!! nukes for them to do it. you would think they woulda after 1.


The desicion to bomb Nagasaki was made three days after hiroshima because the Japanese had failed to surrender.