How lefties turn people off

[Francois Tremblay]

I find it very interesting that you guys seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever how much you turn off potential lefties. I am talking not about my experience here (which was brief), but my experience with the leftie Anarchists in general. There seems to be a constant, persistent desire to hate anyone who does not fully agree with your ideology. The existence of this sub-forum is eloquent enough, as well as the kind of people you "restrict." People who could get to understand your side of the story, and see its good sides- like I have in the past months. While I am now a leftie and a socialist, I still resent many lefties for the fact that their hostility has made me reject their positions for so long. You guys seem to love creating your own enemies. (even your own FAQ has long strawman and quote-mining diatribes against every Anarchist you don't agree with!) Even though I consider myself a leftie, I will not participate in this board because there is too much hostility. You wasted my time and you waste everyone's time. You pretty much have no interest in helping others- which is fine, but pretty useless for the movement. As long as you keep thinking of other people as enemies, you'll never move forward. I became a leftie IN SPITE of you guys, not thanks to you guys.

[jaiden]

i agree. the leftist ideology has too many contradictions. from what i have read on this site and from other sites, i see obvious arrogance. ironically superiority is evident here as well. seriously guys, re-read your philosophy some more.

[Bright Banana Beard]

i agree. the leftist ideology has too many contradictions. from what i have read on this site and from other sites, i see obvious arrogance. ironically superiority is evident here as well. seriously guys, re-read your philosophy some more.

Can you point me to obvious arrogance, ironically superiority? Now that is ironic because it is the anti-revleft said that, not us. Many of us nod there is many flaws in our theories and still, we are going to see new -ism, theory and etc. Inevitable is not what we acknowledge, but desirable does.

Just because we argued and won a topic does not mean we superior or shit. It just show there is flaw.

[Glenn Beck]

Debates in politics in general and the radical left specifically can get pretty uncivil.
I think RevLeft is neither unique nor exceptional in suffering from an acute case of internet tough guy disease. Personally I'm of the "ignore and watch it wither" school of thought on that. :rolleyes: Check out the comments on Digg and you will see far, far worse.

[Raúl Duke]

I don't know....

When I debate stuff that is borderline leftist to revolutionary leftist to people (who aren't right-wing. i.e. liberals and moderates) I don't necessarily turn people off.

Sometimes they are interested (and see that I have a point, usually they say that when I use history to back me up), a few times sympathetic, and other times they don't care (as in, they don't care about that or anything overtly political).

But I don't remember times in which I "turned people off", at least not in real life.

[Dr Mindbender]

if we allowed just anyone to post in the main board, it would distract it's intended context and descend into us going over the same tired arguments rather than discussing revolutionary organisation. The opposing ideologies board exists for the purpose of arguing with reactionaries.

Without restriction, the entire forum would just be one big OI board.

Revleft is not, I repeat NOT, an intended mircrocosm of a post capitalist society.

[Bud Struggle]

if we allowed just anyone to post in the main board, it would distract it's intended context and descend into us going over the same tired arguments rather than discussing revolutionary organisation. The opposing ideologies board exists for the purpose of arguing with reactionaries.

Without restriction, the entire forum would just be one big OI board.

Revleft is not, I repeat NOT, an intended mircrocosm of a post capitalist society.

I agree and I'm a confirmed Capitalist. Opposing discussion is nice. It points out the chinks in the Communist playbook and it hones discussion skill of the Communist around here. On the other hand the Commies need a place that they can go and discuss and debate and learn what it is they actually believe and are fighting for without constantly justifying their existance to people that disagree with them.

The way RevLeft operated is probably the best compromise that can reasonable be thought up for the time being.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I find it very interesting that you guys seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever how much you turn off potential lefties. I am talking not about my experience here (which was brief), but my experience with the leftie Anarchists in general. There seems to be a constant, persistent desire to hate anyone who does not fully agree with your ideology. The existence of this sub-forum is eloquent enough, as well as the kind of people you "restrict." People who could get to understand your side of the story, and see its good sides- like I have in the past months. While I am now a leftie and a socialist, I still resent many lefties for the fact that their hostility has made me reject their positions for so long. You guys seem to love creating your own enemies. (even your own FAQ has long strawman and quote-mining diatribes against every Anarchist you don't agree with!) Even though I consider myself a leftie, I will not participate in this board because there is too much hostility. You wasted my time and you waste everyone's time. You pretty much have no interest in helping others- which is fine, but pretty useless for the movement. As long as you keep thinking of other people as enemies, you'll never move forward. I became a leftie IN SPITE of you guys, not thanks to you guys.

1. How can you be a socialist and an anarcho capitalist?
2. You were ostensibly restricted becuase you're a capitalist, and we're not interested in trying to justify our existence in every thread. We have other things to discuss
3. Your icy reception inevitably relates to your otherwise snarky disposition. You did once equate anarcho-communism with stalinism if I recall correctly. And this nasty post here is a good example of it too.
4. Of course the board is about hostile theoretical discussion, organizing work goes down in quasi private in the real world. I never reveal more than the basics of my shit. Revleft is for theory mostly.

[Killfacer]

is this another lefty who has been rejected my revleft because he made some rash statements. Hmm.

[Incendiarism]

A lot of people on the left do seem elitist, and I'm guilty of this type of behavior in real life, but nothing compares to the scorn, indignation, and dismissive posturing of the right. To them we are all utopian dreamers and clearly hate rationality.

It's a good thing I'm a quiet person and shy away from arrogance.

[Bud Struggle]

is this another lefty who has been rejected my revleft because he made some rash statements. Hmm.

But we here in OI take him with open arms.

Francois, welcome! We're having our OI Back to School Memership Drive and you are our first recruit.

Enjoy, the OI is much more fun than RevLeft, anyway. :)


but nothing compares to the scorn, indignation, and dismissive posturing of the right. To them we are all utopian dreamers and clearly hate rationality.


Not here in OI. It's the RevLefters that run around calling us OIers morons and idiots and other personal invectives. For the most part we OI Capitalists are pretty decent in our remarks in discussion and temperate in our vocabulary to everyone we chat with. :)

[Lector Malibu]

A lot of people on the left do seem elitist, and I'm guilty of this type of behavior in real life, but nothing compares to the scorn, indignation, and dismissive posturing of the right. To them we are all utopian dreamers and clearly hate rationality.

It's a good thing I'm a quiet person and shy away from arrogance.

I'm not elitist in real life at all. I avoid the right as much as possible as well.

[Dean]

Not here in OI. It's the RevLefters that run around calling us OIers morons and idiots and other personal invectives. For the most part we OI Capitalists are pretty decent in our remarks in discussion and temperate in our vocabulary to everyone we chat with. :)

Actually, most of the antagonism is in-fighting, most of the OI contention is from OIers (though it has dies down in the last few months). This is waht I experience, at least, throughout the whole board. :lol:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I'm not elitist in real life at all. I avoid the right as much as possible as well.

LoL do you live in a a cave?

[Mindtoaster]

I find it very interesting that you guys seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever how much you turn off potential lefties. I am talking not about my experience here (which was brief), but my experience with the leftie Anarchists in general. There seems to be a constant, persistent desire to hate anyone who does not fully agree with your ideology. The existence of this sub-forum is eloquent enough, as well as the kind of people you "restrict." People who could get to understand your side of the story, and see its good sides- like I have in the past months. While I am now a leftie and a socialist, I still resent many lefties for the fact that their hostility has made me reject their positions for so long. You guys seem to love creating your own enemies. (even your own FAQ has long strawman and quote-mining diatribes against every Anarchist you don't agree with!) Even though I consider myself a leftie, I will not participate in this board because there is too much hostility. You wasted my time and you waste everyone's time. You pretty much have no interest in helping others- which is fine, but pretty useless for the movement. As long as you keep thinking of other people as enemies, you'll never move forward. I became a leftie IN SPITE of you guys, not thanks to you guys.

This is a discussion board, not a debate board. Its pretty simple

[Lector Malibu]

LoL do you live in a a cave?

Sometimes I wish. Really though I don't casually hang out and fence walk with right wing people in my personal life.

[Red Phalanx]

Sadly, I see leftists turning people off all the time. Too many of them are so wrapped up in their own arguments that they can't see what is driving the other guy. Too many of us act as if everyone who is not on the left suffer from psychological problems.

I have also seen many leftists turned off by the level and amount of in-fighting that goes on between leftists. We tend to hack each other up more than the enemy.

[Lector Malibu]

Sadly, I see leftists turning people off all the time. Too many of them are so wrapped up in their own arguments that they can't see what is driving the other guy. Too many of us act as if everyone who is not on the left suffer from psychological problems.

I have also seen many leftists turned off by the level and amount of in-fighting that goes on between leftists. We tend to hack each other up more than the enemy.

This is a good post. I have also seen a high level of infighting right here on this site.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Most major forums with a particular bent have some measure of restrictions. FreeRepublic and DemocraticUnderground ban heterodox users. I've repeated this line probably more times than I should - considering I oppose the use of restrictions as well (it's not skin off my back if you participate in the Literature forum) - but stop playing up something that occurs everywhere.

Count yourself lucky that we're so generous. We could treat capitalists like forum members at SeanHannity.com treat liberals, but we like the company. :cool:

[gla22]

SeanHannity.com i think i am going to join and see what happens.

[danyboy27]

another deceived leftist, cool, my private club is growning!

killfacer and tomk, you can invite him at the place, you know THE PLACE...catch my drift?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Sometimes I wish. Really though I don't casually hang out and fence walk with right wing people in my personal life.

No, it's cool. It's pretty hard to avoid supporting an evil oil company these days.

Anyway, i hang out with some self-described fascists. They're morons, that's not why I hang out with them.

As for the original topic, all leftists do a horrible jobs with this. Even liberals have the problem. Despite pushing policies that would benefit a majority of people, they're painted as elitist morons who don't care about anyone outside their cliques.

Conservatives, meanwhile, could tell the people of their plans to fuck them up the ass with a lamp-post and many working-class we'll respond with 'yee-haw that's them thar my hero talkin' right thar'

You guys ever notice how it's often the poor who most vehemently oppose abortion, gay marriage (let alone gay people), and pacifism? Just sayin'

[Killfacer]

YES COMRADE SPETNAZ. To the place. If he is still hangin around revleft that is.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

i think i am going to join and see what happens.


Careful. Liberals have been dropping dead recently because of neo-con loons. I don't think a socialist would fair much better.

[Bud Struggle]

You guys ever notice how it's often the poor who most vehemently oppose abortion, gay marriage (let alone gay people), and pacifism? Just sayin'

The workers! They are also religious and conservative and anti drugs. They are also warm, kind and good people.

The Revolution, when it come, is going to be quite a shock to a lot of people around here.:lol:

[Schrödinger's Cat]

They are also religious and conservative and anti drugs.
In the United States there's only conservative and less conservative, so I'm not surprised.

[Bud Struggle]

In the United States there's only conservative and less conservative, so I'm not surprised.

Good people, though. They have their beliefs and their needs--beyond any Marxist conventions.

Those needs have to be met--above and beyond systematic ideology in order for a Revolution to happen.

The Workers dictate the Revolution--not the Ideologues. Agreed?

[Dystisis]

LoL do you live in a a cave?
Fucking idiot, not everyone lives in right wing infested areas like some places in the US. In fact most people don't.

[Abluegreen7]

Its easy gathering Leftists. Get a bunch of Highschoolers and start a riot. Ive done it many times. You push it on them easily.

[Bud Struggle]

Its easy gathering Leftists. Get a bunch of Highschoolers and start a riot. Ive done it many times. You push it on them easily.

Of course, that have to be in bed by 10PM. :(

[Plagueround]

As for the original topic, all leftists do a horrible jobs with this. Even liberals have the problem. Despite pushing policies that would benefit a majority of people, they're painted as elitist morons who don't care about anyone outside their cliques.

Its an odd phenomenon. I've definitely been trying to curb my tendency to lash out at those I don't agree with. For a philosophy that's supposed to be all inclusive, there is a lot of elitists. I suppose that's why the idea of a "Vanguard" party never sat right with me.


Conservatives, meanwhile, could tell the people of their plans to fuck them up the ass with a lamp-post and many working-class we'll respond with 'yee-haw that's them thar my hero talkin' right thar'

You guys ever notice how it's often the poor who most vehemently oppose abortion, gay marriage (let alone gay people), and pacifism? Just sayin'"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." -Napoleon Bonaparte

The Repulican party is very much about convincing people that we should "stand together as Americans" and support traditional values. They can often win elections just by appealing to people's religious belief. Meanwhile the Democrats try to pass themselves off as religious people, but they oppose a lot of those "traditions" that are promoted by Christianity and they turn the conservative voters off (My mother's family voted Republican for decades solely on the abortion issue, never bothering to so much as glace at the other guy's positions). To many of these people, ending abortion is more important than any of the other plans the Dems may have in mind that could actually help them. (Not that I support either party or think the plans the Demoncrats have could do much good...)


The workers! They are also religious and conservative and anti drugs. They are also warm, kind and good people.

The Revolution, when it come, is going to be quite a shock to a lot of people around here.:lol:

Despite the fact that there is a very large conservative movement in the Unites States, it seems to me most people these days are seeing reasons to start "leaning left". Most of them are moving toward social democracy and not necessarily "revolutionary" politics, but all movements must start somewhere.
On that note, its probably best not to alienate people, online or in real life, because they don't follow the party line on certain issues and dismiss them for having some conservative views. Its rather difficult to appeal to people and expect them to willingly learn behind bars.

EDIT: In fact, I notice even on this site, the restricted people are banding together more and more. Exclude too many people from the club and you'll have enemies rally together you never thought would even get along.
Then again, the United States has this happening to them right now, and I don't think they've even figured it out.

[Bud Struggle]

EDIT: In fact, I notice even on this site, the restricted people are banding together more and more. Exclude too many people from the club and you'll have enemies rally together you never thought would even get along.

Brother Plagueround, you are in the Club!!!!:thumbup:

The secret password is "Chi Freedman!"

[RGacky3]

The workers! They are also religious and conservative and anti drugs. They are also warm, kind and good people.

Those are also the ones that back in the 20's took up guns to fight union busting Mining companies, they are the same ones that that joined the IWW and fought back against the Capitalists.

I think nower days Capitalism has gotten so strong, most of those people don't see an alternative, for them politics (as far as they are concerned) has nothing to do with Capitalist power structures (which obviously is'nt the case). Once they realize (which is happening more and more) that Capitalist power can be fought, and a tangible difference can be made with Solidarity and Militancy things will start to switch over. I also think that when that happens they probably arn't going to turn to Leftist parties (I hope not), or Liberal-Leftist groups, I think (and hope) they organize themselves, independantly, I really doubt that they will turn to groups that have had the attitude that they are dumb supersticious rednecks. I think its just a matter of time before Leftist groups start having that attitude toward the primarily Catholic and socially conservative Hispanic immigrants.

I believe the left, should start helping the working class organize themselves, and fight the Capitalists on their terms, rather then telling them what they should think. There are some groups that do this, I think the IWW comes to mind, and there are others, but then a bunch more just go around telling workers what they should think and belittling a lot of them, and that is enough to turn a lot of people off.

[Bud Struggle]

I believe the left, should start helping the working class organize themselves, and fight the Capitalists on their terms, rather then telling them what they should think.

They should do that only if they want to win. I rather think Communists like to lounge in their own self rightousness, do their drugs and hate the Capitalist oppressor to pieces.

Communism itself is subject to the Dialectic--it has to form the thesis to the working conservative antithesis.

The synthesis will be something different alltogether. If done properly the world that results from the Communist Revolution should be something completely unexpected. Hopefully unexpected in a positive way.

It is unfortunate that the results of previous Communist Revolutions have been unexpected in a negative way--the degenerate worker state--who would have thunk it? :)

[RGacky3]

I rather think Communists like to lounge in their own self rightousness, do their drugs and hate the Capitalist oppressor to pieces.


Some do, but many, if not most, especially in other countries, actually make a real effort to make a real difference, in the united States its a little harder, but I think looking back to the attitude of the Left of the early 20th Century, when the American left was more in touch with the working classes, that changed I think with the new left of the 60s, where the stopped focusing so much on the working mans plight and more on the social issues going on, womans rights, black emancipation, student protests all of those things are good and positive, but it also took them out of the scene of the working class as a whole, and shifted their focus away from the worker vs Capitalist issue.

I personally think, that during WWI America was pretty close to a real revolution, and I also think that had the russian revolution not happend, an American revolution would have been more likely to happen, and I also think an American revolution would have been much more positive and free, considering Americas past compared to Russias. I think it would have been led by the IWW and Socialist party, and we would have seen history much different, a free Socialist revolution in America which would have changed everything. Maybe I'm just letting my imagination go wild :P, but thats what I think.


ommunism itself is subject to the Dialectic--it has to form the thesis to the working conservative antithesis.

Thats a very simplistic way of looking at it, considering the word 'conservative' really is a hard word to define, and is used in an extreamly cleaver and crafty way by the republicans, and the way they use it, and the word liberal, just shows how good these douche bags are at politics aka hogwash.


It is unfortunate that the results of previous Communist Revolutions have been unexpected in a negative way--the degenerate worker state--who would have thunk it?

Bakunin thunk it.

[leftist manson]

The workers! They are also religious and conservative and anti drugs. They are also warm, kind and good people.

The Revolution, when it come, is going to be quite a shock to a lot of people around here.:lol:
Again wrong.:) Atheism as a mass phenomenon exists all over the planet as a workerist thing. It's the lower-middle class that needs its gods and saviours. Do you really think that those ranchers in Alberta and Texas are 'workers'. Industrial workers in urban centres like Chicago are atheistic for the most part. Moreover, U of C did a study on racist and anti-racist attitudes amongst different ethnicities and different income groups (lol like all american media shit they didn't obviously used the word 'class; but referred to income. You know it was surprising that white women form lower income households emerged as the most anti-racist. Marxism as a cultural and folk idea is so far embedded in the american political system that you can't get rid of it. John mccain gave a recent talk at a NAACP event . Please make sure that you read about it.

[Zurdito]

why do people keep referring to this as an "anarchist" board? It's not! How can you expect anyone to think you can criticise "lefties"(lol) properly when you don't even know that at least 50% of us here aren't anarchists?

also...it's just an internet forum, there is no "you guys", this is not a party or a movement, if you think the internet is a substitute for those things you need to get a life!

No, it is a private forum, some communists wanted a place to discuss with other communists, and opened it to such people. That's all it is. It is not the website of a party or a movement or an alliance with a "line", it is not a place for recruitment, and it does not seek power or propose anything. it is just a place for likeminded people to discuss things, mostly for please in their free time! why are some people so demanding to imagine that communists are going to spend their time and effort making a board just for you!? you can post your opinions on 99% of the internet, or you can express them in real life. Why is it so important that an internet forum set up for a specific area of interest lets you post, even when it's not your own field!? crazy.


Enjoy, the OI is much more fun than RevLeft, anyway. :)

not really, we get to choose.:tt2:

[Bud Struggle]

not really, we get to choose.:tt2:

Choose to follow the party line or get kicked out. Nice choice. ;):lol:

"Nyet" and "Da"

[Bud Struggle]

Again wrong.:) Atheism as a mass phenomenon exists all over the planet as a workerist thing. It's the lower-middle class that needs its gods and saviours. At least where I live in America--the lower class and the working class are pretty much the same thing. Most are pretty religious. As far as the poor Blacks go, the Church is a mainstay in their community. Maybe it's different in other parts of the world but America is a religious--specificly Christian country.


Do you really think that those ranchers in Alberta and Texas are 'workers'. I have no idea what Communist would call them.


Industrial workers in urban centres like Chicago are atheistic for the most part. I doubt that.


Moreover, U of C did a study on racist and anti-racist attitudes amongst different ethnicities and different income groups (lol like all american media shit they didn't obviously used the word 'class; but referred to income. You know it was surprising that white women form lower income households emerged as the most anti-racist. I would definitely agree with that.


Marxism as a cultural and folk idea is so far embedded in the american political system that you can't get rid of it. I don't think Marxism as a cultural or folk idea even vaguely exist in the American political system. And if you mean in the "unions"--the unions are dead and dying and even the ones that are still alive lost any connection they had to Communism in the 1950s.


John mccain gave a recent talk at a NAACP event . Please make sure that you read about it.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. The NAACP isn't a Communist orginization. Good for John McCain, though.

[Zurdito]

Choose to follow the party line or get kicked out. Nice choice. ;):lol:

"Nyet" and "Da"

no, choose to visit OI or not.:tt2:



I don't think Marxism as a cultural or folk idea even vaguely exist in the American political system.


I think this sadly true though.

[JimmyJazz]

I agree that leftists do turn people off, and I once agreed strongly with the OP. But as I matured in my radicalism, I realized that socialism isn't going to come about by everyone becoming convinced that socialists have superior logical arguments. The only argument for socialism that is going to convince a sufficient number of people is the material failings of capitalism.

From a basically Marxist perspective, I have to acknowledge that I am a middle class ally of the working class, and that my kind are not going to make the revolution no matter how many of us become socialists. We're going to continue marrying and having children and reading our socialist books, but doing well enough in our middle-class jobs that we remain unwilling to put everything on the line. Under certain circumstances, however, the working class will find revolutionary action worth the costs that it carries.

Those conditions don't exist now. But whether they exist presently or not, they are what matters. So in short, I guess I'm saying that I became a historical materialist. I do believe that it's important to make as many allies as possible from all classes, starting now, but there are well-defined limits to how far we can get simply by arguing and "not turning people off". Happily, the inverse is also true, and under the right conditions I think there will be limits to how much we can screw things up no matter how abrasive we are.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I have a hard time believing Leftists are any different than libertarians, conservatives, or liberals when it comes to putting people off. I have a project for everyone: visit a conservative and/or libertarian forum and announce you're a socialist. Don't attack any opposing ideologies, just announce that you're a socialist. I bet within an hour you will get a personal attack.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Francois...long time no see.

How is the anarchism.net forum doing? Are Feela and Labyrinth still driving you crazy?

[COVARE]

for the most part, radical leftists are incredibly arrogant....this is what i've personally experienced....they also frequently use words that people wouldn't use in ordinary language and appear rather snobbish....and a further comment: if they're all taking drugs and shit, how can we take you serious....? no wonder a ton of people are turned off....

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I know. I really need to stop consuming coffee and tea. :(

[RGacky3]

.they also frequently use words that people wouldn't use in ordinary language and appear rather snobbish

In an attempt to look smarter, people that do that are just making themselves look like douche bags, not gonna help anything.



I have a hard time believing Leftists are any different than libertarians, conservatives, or liberals when it comes to putting people off.

Political people in General have a tendancy to get a little big arrogant and douche baggy. I don't consider myself political, I could give a rats ass about politics, its a joke, I care about stopping oppression.