why lenin and marx is so sacred?

[danyboy27]

its seem to me that for a lot of communists, marx and lenin are almost gods, and that most of the stuff thei said is somehow without flaws.

all i found about those guy is that, they made something terribly simple, overly complicated.

the whole goal of communism you guy preach is nothing but the goal of erase the differences between man, make sure most of people got what needed to live, and make society better.

why all those teories, calculations, dogma, overly complicated principles?
the only thing its doing is radicalize a good idea, make it appealing for extremists.
after all, lenin and marx where only men, why should we drink their word and radical principles people wrote 1 century ago?

[mykittyhasaboner]

its seem to me that for a lot of communists, marx and lenin are almost gods, and that most of the stuff thei said is somehow without flaws.
anybody who really upholds Marxism or Leninism will tell you that they certainly arent "gods". nor will they tell you that each were without their flaws, nobody is perfect.


all i found about those guy is that, they made something terribly simple, overly complicated.
what did they over complicate specifically?


the whole goal of communism you guy preach is nothing but the goal of erase the differences between man, make sure most of people got what needed to live, and make society better.

which is pretty much what their theory is about.....:confused:


why all those teories, calculations, dogma, overly complicated principles?
the only thing its doing is radicalize a good idea, make it appealing for extremists.

after all, lenin and marx where only men, why should we drink their word and radical principles people wrote 1 century ago?
because a lot of their theories are applicable to todays world. but why do you think that revolutionaries follow exactly what they theorized, like it was the bible of something. you cant conduct a revolution solely on theory, but nor can you deny the benefit of studying theory.

[danyboy27]

well, if i say revolution is a total bullshit i will come under fire of communists both in that forum and in the real life. i already created a topic about that long time ago in the learning section and i got a lot of comment on how what i say was wrong.

the end of currency for exemple, i dont think its possible, i dont think its posible to give equal wage to all peoples.

there is some serious marxist pillar i disagree, dosnt mean i disagree on the basic goal of communism.

i tried to read a lot of communist book, but i never supported more than 25% of the idea into those books, simply beccause it seemed to me its wasnt fitting in today society.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Treated as gods by whom?

One of the most respected members on this forum popularized a phrase called "Marx without crap," or something along those lines. Personally, I'm a Marxist with sympathies for Tucker and Proudhon.

Have you not seen how much lip service is payed to people like Rush Limbaugh, Von Mises, Friedman, Ron Paul, Obama, Reagan? At least Marx is respectable compared to these blubbering fools.

[trivas7]

the whole goal of communism you guy preach is nothing but the goal of erase the differences between man, make sure most of people got what needed to live, and make society better.

why all those teories, calculations, dogma, overly complicated principles?

Agreed, but it's the simplest goals that are often the hardest to accomplish; if appearance were reality there would be no need of science.

[Mindtoaster]

anybody who really upholds Marxism or Leninism will tell you that they certainly arent "gods". nor will they tell you that each were without their flaws, nobody is perfect.


To the Marxist-Leninists:

Purely out of curiosity: What do you consider to be Marx or Lenin's flaws?

[Raúl Duke]

the end of currency for exemple, i dont think its possible, i dont think its posible to give equal wage to all peoples.

Umm...there is no "equal wage." Communism doesn't feature money.
Simplistically defined, communism would have a egalitarian gift economy.


simply beccause it seemed to me its wasnt fitting in today society.

Of course. Communism is a whole new society against much of what this society is all about. Capitalism, our current economy that defines our society, was also against much of it's predecessor: feudalism. Communism isn't the stuff that happened in the USSR, et al but something much more different. It does not faze me that you think it's not "fitting" since in the past feudalists (for example, a guy with the last name Digitilisme, I think) said, at least according to a qoute I read, that " I can't imagine a capitalist France" yet in the end history proved them wrong.

History does demonstrate many changes in the economy so I wouldn't bet much that capitalism is "the last stage of history" as Francis Fukuyama thinks.

Although, yes there are some that deify those 2 thinkers (personally, I don't have high opinions of Lenin) yet many here aren't into cults of personality.


well, if i say revolution is a total bullshit i will come under fire of communists both in that forum and in the real life. i already created a topic about that long time ago in the learning section and i got a lot of comment on how what i say was wrong.

This doesn't mean they are worshipping anything. Basically, if you post a thread on something like that it's quite obvious to expect some criticism and arguments in defense or against. That's what a forum is for.

[Chapter 24]

There are many confused "communists" who know very little of what communism actually is and only choose to glorify the leaders of their supposed ideology. There are numerous people on the internet who don't choose to study theory and only wish to chant, "LONG LIVE COMMUNISM!! LONG LIVE THE TEACHINGS OF MARX/ENGELS/LENIN/STALIN/MAO!!" These people are not real Marxists in any sense of the word. We should study and critically analyze the ideas of these men, and whether or not you agree or oppose them is only relevant if you actually know what you're talking about.

[turquino]

To the Marxist-Leninists:

Purely out of curiosity: What do you consider to be Marx or Lenin's flaws?
I don`t think Marx could've conceived of the Western working class being bought off and bourgeoisified . And Lenin didn't get it until his final years.

[jake williams]

There's a lot I could and would like to say on the topic, because it's both a tricky, difficult one and a very important one, but I'd just like to comment on this:


all i found about those guy is that, they made something terribly simple, overly complicated.
There is a bit of truth to this perhaps, in some understandings, but not much. I think the real problem is that theorists have a tendency to take something obscenely complicated - the entire world - and condense it into a far too simple, inflexible theory. I think if Marx and most Marxists theorists can be accused of anything, it's that the ideas they've come up with are too narrow and lack the subtlety and complexity to deal with all the things we might like to deal with. This would likely be true of any "theory" one could try to come up with about the world, and it doesn't mean there aren't some obvious things, like worker ownership and control of production, that it's very important and helpful to do. But the whole of the world can't be condensed into this.

I suppose there also ought be made a distinction between Marx himself, who was very intelligent and careful, and the ideologies that resulted from his work, which had a tendency to become simplified and condensed and sort of "absolutized".

[RGacky3]

all i found about those guy is that, they made something terribly simple, overly complicated.

You know the Golden rule right? Pretty simple, now try and apply it.

Communism is very simple in its principles, the complicated part is how to get there from where we are now.

[Slovo]

Erase the differences between man? :confused:
Okay, 1.) now, not trying to sound overly PC here but I'd love it if people didn't use the term 'man' to refer to the entire human race. :o
2.) Communists are not opposed to difference, but are opposed to the idea that some people have the right to exploit others for personal gain, oppose the idea that some people don't deserve to have enough to live whilst they work and contribute to society, and believe that each human being should have equal access to resources!
:)

[RHIZOMES]

its seem to me that for a lot of communists, marx and lenin are almost gods, and that most of the stuff thei said is somehow without flaws.

all i found about those guy is that, they made something terribly simple, overly complicated.

the whole goal of communism you guy preach is nothing but the goal of erase the differences between man, make sure most of people got what needed to live, and make society better.

why all those teories, calculations, dogma, overly complicated principles?
the only thing its doing is radicalize a good idea, make it appealing for extremists.
after all, lenin and marx where only men, why should we drink their word and radical principles people wrote 1 century ago?

Yeah let's just strive for an equal and fair society with no idea how to get there! That'll work! :lol::lol::lol:

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah let's just strive for an equal and fair society with no idea how to get there! That'll work! :lol::lol::lol:

How's it been going so far WITH your idea of how to get there? ;):lol:

Maybe you'd do better getting rid of all that Marxist claptrap and Revolution and work within the existing system to improve the lot of humanity in the world.

FWIW, that seems to be the current trend. I don't think there is one world "Communist" leader from Castro to Chavez to whomever is in charge of Nepal that wouldn't get restricted to the OI in half an hour is he every ventured onto RevLeft.

[jasmine]

Maybe you'd do better getting rid of all that Marxist claptrap and Revolution and work within the existing system to improve the lot of humanity in the world.


This seems like an obvious point but how do you actually do it? Of course you can work to change the lives of particular people in particular communities but to "improve the lot of humanity in the world" - how do you do this?

Politics is about career and if others benefit along the way it's fortuitous. Expanding economies benefit people too but this is also driven by self interest. If others benefit all well and good, but it's far from inevitable.

Marx envisaged a collective consciousness where each worked for the benefit of the whole society, not just for his/her personal enrichment. Is this really possible? Ever? How? That's the million dollar question.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

How's it been going so far WITH your idea of how to get there? ;):lol:

Maybe you'd do better getting rid of all that Marxist claptrap and Revolution and work within the existing system to improve the lot of humanity in the world.

FWIW, that seems to be the current trend. I don't think there is one world "Communist" leader from Castro to Chavez to whomever is in charge of Nepal that wouldn't get restricted to the OI in half an hour is he every ventured onto RevLeft.

There are only a few universal qualifications for restriction: anti-choice, homophobic, sexist, racist, transphobic, and non-socialist - oh and you can't be downright stupid (kill all druggies). Honestly if somebody can't meet these standards I don't feel it necessary to feel sorry for them.

I think a forum that tolerates social democrats (classical), Marxists, mutualists, anarcho-individualists (classical), Trots, council communists, and even "Stalinists" is pretty damn lenient.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I think a forum that tolerates social democrats (classical), Marxists, mutualists, anarcho-individualists (classical), Trots, council communists, and even "Stalinists" is pretty damn lenient.



Really? Social-Democrats aren't restricted? I'm a Social-Democrat, and I was restricted to OI for being a "Liberal, not revolutionary, Leftist."

Do you mean Social-Democrat post-revolution? I was under the impression that anyone who believes in parliamentary action would be restricted.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I don`t think Marx could've conceived of the Western working class being bought off and bourgeoisified . And Lenin didn't get it until his final years.

You mean moved to a level in which we are satisfied to accept gradual instead of revolutionary change.

I would have been 100% revolution had I been a 19th-Century steel mill worker. But thanks to those Unions, I now have a weekend. And football season is starting....

Wait until the Raiders are 2-8, and I'll be ready ;)

[mikelepore]

the goal of erase the differences between man

That phrase seems to say that social inequality is caused by personal characteristics. The truth is: capitalism provides for people keeping their property regardless of how they got it. They could be the lazy offspring of hard-working grandparents. They could be the offspring of gangsters and pirates. They could be the offspring of the business owner who made a fortune by selling the poison gas to Hitler. It doesn't matter -- they have certain legal pieces of paper and therefore the government says that the wealth and power belong to them. "Difference between man" are not the cause of class division. It's an institution. Like any institution, people adopted it and people may abolish it.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Really? Social-Democrats aren't restricted? I'm a Social-Democrat, and I was restricted to OI for being a "Liberal, not revolutionary, Leftist."

Do you mean Social-Democrat post-revolution? I was under the impression that anyone who believes in parliamentary action would be restricted.

Look up the classical definition.

[EvigLidelse]

There is no perfect ideology, everyone has pros and cons. If there was a perfect ideology then we would all have converted already.

[Dimentio]

How's it been going so far WITH your idea of how to get there? ;):lol:

Maybe you'd do better getting rid of all that Marxist claptrap and Revolution and work within the existing system to improve the lot of humanity in the world.

FWIW, that seems to be the current trend. I don't think there is one world "Communist" leader from Castro to Chavez to whomever is in charge of Nepal that wouldn't get restricted to the OI in half an hour is he every ventured onto RevLeft.

Agreed that they would been restricted :D:D