The Russia vs Georgia conflict

[Dr Mindbender]

can someone explain to me what the fuck they're fighting over?

Cheers.

[RedAnarchist]

South Ossetia is an autonomous part of Georgia, which borders North Ossetia, which is part of Russia. Russia said that Georgia was invading South Ossetia, and the argument turned violent. The Russians then invaded Georgia. Most South Ossetians are Russian citizens and (I think) most would like to be Russian.

[Dr Mindbender]

South Ossetia is an autonomous part of Georgia, which borders North Ossetia, which is part of Russia. Russia said that Georgia was invading South Ossetia, and the argument turned violent. The Russians then invaded Georgia. Most South Ossetians are Russian citizens and (I think) most would like to be Russian.

fucking hell, sounds like another kashmir.

I wish they would resolve these disputes through the ballot box before they fire up the tanks.

[Holden Caulfield]

I wish they would resolve these disputes through the ballot box before they fire up the tanks.


what if they did that is protestant ulster?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

There's an excellent explanation here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/new-cold-war-escalates.html

With up-dates here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/americas-role.html

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/putin-wins-probably.html

[Winter]

Georgia is a puppet state for the U.S. and Israel, must anything else be said?

[Tower of Bebel]

Another imperialist conflict waged by the "superpowers" has gone "wrong". The imperialists have struggled for years to get hold of some key "geopolitical" regions like the Caucasus but also the Balkans. The EU and the VS had won a small victory by winning over Kosovo by granting it independance from Serbia and its Russian imperialist "allies". The Russian imperialists are stricking back by tacking control over the Caucasus where Georgia with its imperialist "allies" plays a key role. South-Ossetia was just another trigger.

[Yehuda Stern]

Our attitude is that since Russia is an imperialist state and Georgia is a colonial country, we would militarily support Georgia in this conflict, while protecting the rights of the minorities in South Ossetia and Abkhazia from persecution by the Georgian state. We also recognize that Georgia is closely allied to American imperialism and that at some point the conflict could turn into an inter-imperialist struggle, in which case Marxists should support the defeat of both sides.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Georgia is a puppet state for the U.S. and Israel, must anything else be said?

They're not a puppet state. They are a junior ally of the US. They clearly do things without American permission, hence why they made such a foolhardy decision in provoking Russian imperialists.

[Glenn Beck]

I wish they would resolve these disputes through the ballot box before they fire up the tanks.

They tried. South Ossetia has an unrecognized government that has won several unofficial referenda for secession. Georgia is not interested.

Even though their pretext for invasion (all that stuff about Georgian aggression and oppression of South Ossetia) is technically true, it's obviously not the real story (no more than the U.S. really went into Iraq to save the Kurds from genocide).

In a nutshell, Russia is responding to the encroachment of NATO into its sphere of influence, after Ukraine and Georgia were offered promises that they would be members in the near future. Welcome to the new multi-polar world! :cool:

[trivas7]

fucking hell, sounds like another kashmir.

Exactly.

[Dr Mindbender]

what if they did that is protestant ulster?
excuse me? :confused:

I dont think the Georgia and N.Ireland conflicts are comparable. The georgia conflct seems more conventional, n.ireland was a bloody series of tit for tat killings and dirty covert activities. Not to mention it has background going back the best part of a thousand years.

[Winter]

They're not a puppet state. They are a junior ally of the US. They clearly do things without American permission, hence why they made such a foolhardy decision in provoking Russian imperialists.

I disagree. We are not going to be told it's a puppet state. I think that the strength and the influence of the U.S. automatically makes all its third world allies its own; nor do I believe that Georgia made this decision independently at all.


The concept of a "puppet state" implies some deliberate attempt to deceive. Either the citizens of the alleged puppet state or the international community are assumed to be deceived into believing that the puppet state is really independent when it is not.
Each side believes that it sees a reality which the other side cannot, or refuses to, see. The two main difficulties in deciding whether a particular regime constitutes a puppet state are (a) the difficulty of observing the process by which the external power transmits its will to the puppet and (b) the fact that those who act as puppets may see themselves sincerely as following their national interest.


U.S.-Georgia relations continue to be close. Extensive U.S. assistance is targeted to support Georgia's democratic, economic, and security reform programs, with an emphasis on institution-building and implementing lasting reforms. The United States has provided Georgia approximately $1.7 billion in assistance since 1991. On September 12, 2005, Georgia signed a compact with the Millennium Challenge Corporation for a five-year $295.3 million assistance package.


Millennium Challenge Corporation: Countries are selected on a competitive basis through a set of 16 indicators designed to measure a country’s effectiveness at ruling justly, investing in people, and fostering enterprise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business) and entrepreneurship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrepreneurship). The focus of the MCA is to promote economic growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_growth) in the recipient countries. The program emphasizes good economic policies in recipient countries. The Bush administration has stated their belief that development aid works better in countries with good economic policies, such as free markets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_markets) and low corruption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption).

I think it's very clear that the U.S. has vital interests in these regions. As stated above, I for one, do not believe Georgia acted on its own to create conflict with Russia. This is like saying the U.S. had no hand in the countless coup's that took place in Latin America. The past tells us that the U.S. is notorious for this type of stuff, so why wouldn't it be now? The U.S. has bribed Georgia with money, weapons, and this Millennium Challenge Corporation.

This is just more "making the world safe for democracy" rhetoric which translates into spreading the tentacles of capitalism to make sure the whole world can be under the watchful eyes of big brother U.S.A. in order to make sure her empire continues to spread to every inch of the globe.

Do not be surprised if the seeds of this conflict grow into something much much larger.

[Psy]

Our attitude is that since Russia is an imperialist state and Georgia is a colonial country, we would militarily support Georgia in this conflict, while protecting the rights of the minorities in South Ossetia and Abkhazia from persecution by the Georgian state. We also recognize that Georgia is closely allied to American imperialism and that at some point the conflict could turn into an inter-imperialist struggle, in which case Marxists should support the defeat of both sides.
What about the fact South Ossetia and Abkhazia for now support Russian occupation for the most part?

[Trystan]

Is there any particular reason why the media keeps reminding us that Stalin was from Georgia?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Another update here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/schisms-and-cataclyms-of-new-world.html

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I disagree. We are not going to be told it's a puppet state. I think that the strength and the influence of the U.S. automatically makes all its third world allies its own; nor do I believe that Georgia made this decision independently at all.

There is almost no material benefit to Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia for the US. In fact, it makes America’s position incredibly precarious. They have no desire to provoke an imperial world war with another world power. Especially not a world power like Russia, who doesn’t have much of a future, and thus not a whole lot to lose. Status quo fit perfectly well with American interests, Georgia took this action independently.

I know there’s this urge among leftists to see everything as a big imperialist game, but the years of direct colonialism are over. Neo-colonialism is more about control of capital, not necessarily political details. Of course the US wants to ensure that Georgia follows a general pro US line, but they do not have a reason for or the resources to micromanage the affairs of a piddling soviet breakaway region. They want to encircle the Russian imperialists and they want to protect their pipeline. That’s it.

[RedAnarchist]

Is there any particular reason why the media keeps reminding us that Stalin was from Georgia?

I dunno, but its irrelevant to the conflict, so they must be doing it for a reason.

[politics student]

I dunno, but its irrelevant to the conflict, so they must be doing it for a reason.

I think its being done with some of the "new Russian Bear" comments I kept hearing on Channel 4 news.

The media is trying to increase ratings by making out a new possible cold war.:laugh:

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I think the conflict could have two possible resolutions:

1: Russia pushes Georgia out of South Osettia and bombs/raids Georgian Infrastructure for good measure, Delaying or even putting off NATO membership for Georgia.

2: Russia wages all out war with Georgia and smashes it's way into Tblisi, removing Sakashvilli and installing a puppet government. Georgians may mount an Insurgency supported by western special forces, the results of which I can't really predict. Also, due to the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline Oil prices will rise and Russia will have control of almost all the oil from Azerbaijan.

[Psy]

I think the conflict could have two possible resolutions:

1: Russia pushes Georgia out of South Osettia and bombs/raids Georgian Infrastructure for good measure, Delaying or even putting off NATO membership for Georgia.

And Abkhazia



2: Russia wages all out war with Georgia and smashes it's way into Tblisi, removing Sakashvilli and installing a puppet government. Georgians may mount an Insurgency supported by western special forces, the results of which I can't really predict. Also, due to the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline Oil prices will rise and Russia will have control of almost all the oil from Azerbaijan.

3. Smash Georgia so hard the Georgian opposition is a shoe in for the next elections as Georgians blame the current administration for bringing the wrath of Russia.

[Yehuda Stern]

What about the fact South Ossetia and Abkhazia for now support Russian occupation for the most part?

It fits in with what I have already said, I think. Georgia is a reactionary and oppressive state, like all capitalist states, but there is still a difference between the Georgian side, which receives no material support from imperialism at this time, and the Russian side, which is imperialist.

[Psy]

It fits in with what I have already said, I think. Georgia is a reactionary and oppressive state, like all capitalist states, but there is still a difference between the Georgian side, which receives no material support from imperialism at this time, and the Russian side, which is imperialist.
I would think it has more to do with Georgia launching a sneak rocket artillery attack in the middle of the night.

[Comrade B]

Georgia is ruled by an idiot, but the Russian imperialism is more of our enemy in this situation.
Russia wants Georgia for its warm water ports, nothing else. Russia wants to exploit the people of Georgia directly.

[RedHal]

and US wants NATO to accept Georgia, expansion of NATO is our enemy. Russia does not pose a greater global threat then US and NATO expansionism.

[Comrade B]

and US wants NATO to accept Georgia, expansion of NATO is our enemy. Russia does not pose a greater global threat then US and NATO expansionism.

So.... we should allow countries that the West likes to be conquered an the people of them to be killed and used to cover our red asses?
Seems rather selfish.

[Psy]

So.... we should allow countries that the West likes to be conquered an the people of them to be killed and used to cover our red asses?
Seems rather selfish.
Does it make more sense to allow countries that the West likes to conquer countries Russia likes and the people of them to be killed? Since if you recall that the goal of Georgia before Russia stepped in.

[Yehuda Stern]

I would think it has more to do with Georgia launching a sneak rocket artillery attack in the middle of the night.

Not at all. In situations like this, the think that should probably interest us the least is "who started it."

[The Intransigent Faction]

I'm tired today, but I'll try to explain this clearly:

Georgian forces surrounded Tskhinvali, the capital of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, which seeks to join Russia. South Ossetia asked Russia for help. Soon after, Russia sent it's armed forces there, and South Ossetians are being evacuated en masse from the region as fighting continues there.
Georgian aggression continues despite the "ceasefire".

Georgia is a reactionary NATO puppet seeking to hold onto this territory by force through the genocide of upwards of to 1500 South Ossetians so far as well and by a mass displacement which has left the region in ruin.

The United States seeks to extend Georgia's region of influence as Georgia continues to provide troops to assist in the imperialist occupation of Iraq and to encourage a split between former Soviet Republics..not to mention the oil pipeline through there.

This is not to say that Russia is "the good guy" in that sense.
Russia is no longer the USSR. It's essentially run by the Oligarchs.
What does remain, however, is strict opposition to American imperialism.

I'll add to this if I realize I've had a hazy memory and left something out.

[Wake Up]

What was a question over sovereignty has quickly escalated into another episode of International Dick waving.

That is to say America won't let Russia get away with it's exploits in South Ossetia because it will loose face on the world stage. it want's tl remain no.1 for as long as possible and any strategic gain over Russia and eventually China is seen as crucial.

On the other hand Russia is scared of Nato expanding into former Eastern-bloc countries such as Georgia and Poland, Russian nationalism is still a powerful force and a show of might from Putin can strengthen their influence in Eastern Europe.

[Comrade B]

Does it make more sense to allow countries that the West likes to conquer countries Russia likes and the people of them to be killed?
It has nothing to do with who prefers who. It has to do with why the countries are fighting each other. Fighting for an independent capitalist state, in my mind, is much less evil than trying to continue sovereignty over a region for reasons of continuing an imperialistic economy. Might I add, Russia has become very much a "Western" country economically and politically.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Not at all. In situations like this, the think that should probably interest us the least is "who started it."

Of course it should 'interest" us how this conflict started, as that has implications for the most realistic and desirable solution(s), and for other purposes, the need of putting things in context.

This is correct to an extent, however.
Regardless of how this started, the situation as it is now must be addressed properly. "Properly" meaning that Georgian aggression must halt completely in order for South Ossetian's to do as they please independently of coerced NATO influence.

[GPDP]

Alright, from what I can gather, the right-wing and the media seems to be putting all the blame on Russia, calling them the "new Russian Bear", the second rise of the USSR, etc. Basically general Cold War scaremongering. But more liberal-minded people in the US are calling bullshit, and pointing out that Georgia started the conflict, and that South Ossetians are grateful for Russian intervention. However, they seem to disregard that Russia has its own interests at stake here, and likely did not intervene merely out of a concern for the people of South Ossetia.

I think it is important to put the conflict in context, and point out that indeed, Georgia, a US ally that contains some economic and political importance, started the invasion, but at the same time, we must recognize that at present, Russia is furthering its own imperialist ambitions, while people defend them on the guise of intervening on behalf of South Ossetia. With all that in mind, I find it hard to express support for anybody other than the people of Georgia and South Ossetia.

Am I correct in this analysis? Should the conflict be properly viewed as an inter-imperialist scuffle, as it now stands?

[Wake Up]

Am I correct in this analysis? Should the conflict be properly viewed as an inter-imperialist scuffle, as it now stands?

I would agree with that. The wishes of the people of South Ossetia will not be in the forefront of any of the major players mind's.

As I said in my earlier post - A spot of international dick-waving. :)

[The Intransigent Faction]

Alright, from what I can gather, the right-wing and the media seems to be putting all the blame on Russia, calling them the "new Russian Bear", the second rise of the USSR, etc. Basically general Cold War scaremongering. But more liberal-minded people in the US are calling bullshit, and pointing out that Georgia started the conflict, and that South Ossetians are grateful for Russian intervention. However, they seem to disregard that Russia has its own interests at stake here, and likely did not intervene merely out of a concern for the people of South Ossetia.

I think it is important to put the conflict in context, and point out that indeed, Georgia, a US ally that contains some economic and political importance, started the invasion, but at the same time, we must recognize that at present, Russia is furthering its own imperialist ambitions, while people defend them on the guise of intervening on behalf of South Ossetia. With all that in mind, I find it hard to express support for anybody other than the people of Georgia and South Ossetia.

Am I correct in this analysis? Should the conflict be properly viewed as an inter-imperialist scuffle, as it now stands?

You are quite correct in many respects. It's also true that Saakashvili does not quite represent them (the Georgian people).
As some Ossetian survivors have even made clear, their qualms are with the government, not the people.

The Oligarchs are trying to justify imperialist dreams by abusing memories of the USSR. On the other hand, the Georgian government must be brought to justice, and instead they face support from NATO. While this is certainly not some altruistic mission to rescue comrades from the grip of NATO imperialism out of the goodness of their hearts, Russia, like any nation, has a right to be worried about expansion of NATO influence on their borders.

Boiling it down to being an "inter-imperialist scuffle" is, however, overly simplistic in the sense of the Oligarchs trying to protect their empire from the influences of American imperialism.

Personally I would firmly place my sympathies with the South Ossetian, Russian, and Georgian people. Although the Oligarchs simply support the wishes of the South Ossetians out of the inevitable personal benefit from doing so, this particular circumstance just happens to fuse the Oligarchs' dreams of Russian imperialism with the protection of South Ossetians from NATO imperialism.

The Oligarchs are shamelessly self-interested reactionary traitors, but even they cannot stand back as the rest of the Russian population witnesses the NATO-sponsored genocide by Saakashvili.

As much as one such as myself hates the Oligarchs, those who stand for any step toward Socialism must really, really abhor NATO as the key imperialist power of the times.

[The Intransigent Faction]

There is almost no material benefit to Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia for the US. In fact, it makes America’s position incredibly precarious. They have no desire to provoke an imperial world war with another world power. Especially not a world power like Russia, who doesn’t have much of a future, and thus not a whole lot to lose. Status quo fit perfectly well with American interests, Georgia took this action independently.

Besides all the evidence Winter's Demise Provided, the fact that NATO troops were moving towards South Ossetia makes it very clear.
There is certainly material benefit in using Georgia as a catalyst to trigger a greater divide between former Soviet states.
America wants the pipeline, and Georgia has provided troops in Iraq. Regardless of your stance on this particular conflict, to say that Georgia is not a puppet state is ludicrous.
The status quo is awful for America. they need as many allies in Iraq as they can get, for one. The intent was not to provoke a war, it was to expand NATO influence and exploit international pressure to keep Russia subdued.
Georgia did not act independently. Saakashvilli is an opportunistic buddy of NATO.


I know there’s this urge among leftists to see everything as a big imperialist game, but the years of direct colonialism are over. Neo-colonialism is more about control of capital, not necessarily political details. Of course the US wants to ensure that Georgia follows a general pro US line, but they do not have a reason for or the resources to micromanage the affairs of a piddling soviet breakaway region. They want to encircle the Russian imperialists and they want to protect their pipeline. That’s it.

By providing troops in Iraq, sharing their resources with NATO, etc.
Russian Oligarchs want to protect business interests, yes, but in this case that coincides with maintaining a strong South Ossetia. If Russia "has no future", then Russia is not a threat. It's clear waffling to claim that Russia has no future and follow that up with a claim that the united states "does not want to start war with another world power".
Nobody said anything about "micromanaging". They aren't doing the bulk of the fighting or anything of that nature despite aforementioned NATO troops. They simply encourage Saakashvilli to strike and apply "diplomatic" pressure on a weakened post-Soviet Russia.
Saakashvilli is a NATO puppet. End of story.

[ComradeOm]

I would agree with that. The wishes of the people of South Ossetia will not be in the forefront of any of the major players mind's.However it should not go unnoticed that, no doubt unintentionally and self-servingly, Russia is upholding the principle of self-determination in preventing the central Georgian government from forcibly reintegrating the territories. For this alone Moscow has my qualified support in this matter

[Goose]

fucking hell, sounds like another kashmir.

I wish they would resolve these disputes through the ballot box before they fire up the tanks.


To be fair they did that in Yeltsin's day, and the vasy majority of Ossetian's wanted to remain Russian. Sadly they didn't take it up as Russia under Yeltsin was kissing America's arse, and America liked a bigger Georgia, which it knew would kiss its arse even more at a later date (especially after Georgiou Kinkladze's amazing performance for Man City, which got the fascists in Downing St on side too).

However, South Ossetia was made a part of Georgia under Stalin to make it easier to administer - big mountains between North and South Ossetia. Georgia, at that point in time, was obviously part of the CCCP, it was a purely administrative move, a bit like if you gave Humberside Kalashnikovs and then told em to get on with it..

And therin lie your problems.

[Dóchas]

its scary to think that if georgia was a part of NATO we would be facing WWIII as obviously if russia attacked a NATO country imperialist America would send a force to be reckoned with and as both America and Russia both have nuclear weapons (america has a missile outpost in greece,well i range of russia) we would be looking at another cold war but this time i doubt either country would be hesitant in using them...scary stuff!!