not satisfied with my union, help!

[rampantuprising]

ive recently started a new job in the meat cutting industry, and joined the UFCW as a result. after doing some research ive come to realize that the union is much to moderate for my liking. more contract negotiating and talks by the union leaders,and very little worker action. many of my co-workers know little to nothing about the union itself. not only that, but the UFCW has also apparently been involved in hiring protestors for the wake-up wal-mart campaign, in which they were paid much less than the wal-mart employees themselves, were given very little to no benefits, and one participant had suffered a heat stroke while 'protesting' for the UFCW in the hot nevada sun. can anyone collaborate on this? i would also like to take a look at any unions (particular to my industry) that arent involved in a RICO law scandal,also those that have a more left-leaning approach..if anyone is aware of any

[chimx]

I'm not sure if it's the direction you are interested in, but a friend of mine has made some ground in his union by creating a caucus of sorts to put pressure on his rather moderate union. If you want I could contact him and post his response here on his process of organizing this caucus (assuming I can get him to write something up, he's a busy fella). Let me know.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The UFCW is notoriously bad nowadays. In fact, it is probably the most boss-friendly union operating in the United States today. I remember when my wife was working retail and they signed a contract for several years at minimum wage. After having dues deducted, the workers actually ended up making less than minimum wage. I have some relatives working under similar contracts right now.

I recommend checking out the DVD "American Dream" about the Hormel Workers Strike. It shows how workers in Local P9 carried out a strike that drew the sympathy and even participation of workers from all around, in spite of constant attacks and demands by the International (which pulled all sorts of reactionary moves). Also study that movement more generally. Some aspects of it got pretty radical for the time (for example, some people fighting in the revolution in Nicaragua came to talk to/support the strikers, etc.) In the end, the bosses smashed the strike with the help of the Democratic Party governor who called in the National Guard and the International, which took over the local and called in scabs.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormel_Meatpackers%27_Strike#1985_strike and check the net and some of the books out there.

[chimx]

After having dues deducted, the workers actually ended up making less than minimum wage.

That is disgustingly horrible. It's a wonder how that union maintains a membership at all.


I recommend checking out the DVD "American Dream" about the Hormel Workers Strike.

I would be interested in that. Is it something that a local video store would have or would I have to special order it (and if so, suggestions where?)

[rampantuprising]

i like the sound of the caucas idea. if you could contact him that would be great. i was pretty skeptical about the whole ordeal when i had paid my dues and then never heard anything from a union represenative since then..

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I would be interested in that. Is it something that a local video store would have or would I have to special order it (and if so, suggestions where?)

It's actually pretty famous, considering what it is. It's from Barbara Kopple, who directed the more-famous "Harlan County USA" (a movie every worker should see).

I know you can get it at Amazon and similar places. I doubt a local video store would have it, though I could be wrong. If they have a decent documentary section, they may have a copy.

This is it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream_(film)
Here it is on Amazon (for $9.99 new / $7.10 used): http://www.amazon.com/American-Dream-Jesse-Jackson/dp/B0000DZTKP/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1218550429&sr=8-1

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The UFCW is a horrible, horrible, horrible union. We call em "United For Cutting Wages" around these parts. My suggestion is to form a rank and file group at your job. You can take direct job action to deal with grievances without any nonsensical bureaucratic procedure. You can also resist the union bosses with such a group.

The Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) operates something called dual unionism. If you and your friends join the IWW, the union can help you agitate against the UFCW. However, you can't join another union in an official contract capacity. The UFCW has an exclusive right to legally "bargain" for workers in your shop. The only way to end that is a decertification election, and then a recertification election with a new union (like the IWW). That is a rather difficult and risky campaign, though it is up to you guys.

[rampantuprising]

im kind of new to this town and i dont really know many people within the plant, not only that but half (if not more) of the workers dont speak english. would posting something on a bulletin board about it be a good idea? or does it need to be more under the radar? also if i left the ufcw and joined the iww. would my job still be protected? this union stuff if kind of new to me if you cant tell...

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

im kind of new to this town and i dont really know many people within the plant, not only that but half (if not more) of the workers dont speak english. would posting something on a bulletin board about it be a good idea? or does it need to be more under the radar? also if i left the ufcw and joined the iww. would my job still be protected? this union stuff if kind of new to me if you cant tell...

You can't resign from the UFCW if you work in a union shop. Legally, the UFCW has exclusive right to bargain contracts, and represent workers in legal grievances. Now you could have a vote to decertify the UFCW, and then have one to certify the IWW as your representative. However this is very difficult, time consuming and liable to fail. Your best bet right now is to join the IWW as a dual carder, ie a member of both unions. The IWW can help you organize with your fellow workers to informally oppose the union bosses. However there needs to be an IWW branch near you, if you pm me your location I can direct you to the closest one.

That said, I would hold off on any action for now. Organizing on the job requires a degree of friendship and familiarity. Your first and most important mission is to build up amicable relationships with your comrades. Make sure to build relationships with ones that hold sway in various social groups. For example, if John is good friends with 10 other people, all you need to do is convert John, and John can convert his friends.

[leftspot]

Unfortunately most unions in the US are not about organizing the workers in class struggle. They tend to be 'business unions'. This is nothing new -- labor leader and Communist Party leader William Z Foster was writing sharp essays such as "The Bankruptcy of the American Labor Movement" in the 1920s, that seem like they could have been written yesterday.

It is up to rank and file union members who support class struggle unionism to NOT abandon their unions for the IWW or some other isolated grouping. We need to fight from within to transform the unions in the US to put them on a class struggle basis. If the leaders of your local won't organize the workers to fight, then find out when the next leadership elections are and form a slate to run against them. This isn't easy, so you'll have to do a lot of groundwork and get support from alot of people by doing organizing around issues in your workplace. Forming a rank and file caucus within your local is one way to start. Especially if you're new it's important to be cautious at first and find at least one or two other workers who you can trust to get things going with you. Once you have a small group of workers who believe in a different vision for the union, you can build from there. I would recommend that you immediately get a copy of the book that Labor Notes put out called "Troublemakers Handbook". YOu can find it on their website at labornotes.org and they also have a separate website just for troublemakers handbook at troublemakershandbook.org. That has a ton of amazing information about leading the struggle from the rank and file and transforming your union.

A comrade of mine put together a nice study guide, and these are the readings on class struggle unionism that he collected. You can see the study guide at marxistleninist.wordpress.com/study-guide/

You can also see some examples of class struggle unionism in FRSO's newspaper Fight Back. The labor-related articles are here: fightbacknews.org/labor.html

Hope this helps!

[YSR]

Leftspot can spout his FRSO crap and Joe Hill can urge you to join the One Big Union (an appeal that I think is worthwhile) but ultimately, the real thing you can do to fix your union is to organize. Get together with your new coworkers and talk about what's wrong at the shop. Likely it'll be the issues with the boss, or the union, or both. Ask questions: what's wrong in the shop? How are workers being mistreated? Where is the union failing? Where is the union doing well? What can you, as workmates, do on the shopfloor to get things changed?

Ultimately, you'll have to make a choice between trying to reform the UFSW chapter or building an entirely new organization. I agree with JH'sG that the latter is the best course of action. But that's the long term question, and one that doesn't need to be answered right away. Instead, I suggest you think about what you can do, here and now, to build solidarity between your fellow workers. The big political questions can come later. Most of your coworkers don't speak English? Get some of your English speaking ones together with someone who's bilingual and try to learn some. I think that JH'sG said it best:


I would hold off on any action for now. Organizing on the job requires a degree of friendship and familiarity. Your first and most important mission is to build up amicable relationships with your comrades. Make sure to build relationships with ones that hold sway in various social groups. For example, if John is good friends with 10 other people, all you need to do is convert John, and John can convert his friends.

[leftspot]

Leftspot can spout his FRSO crap and Joe Hill can urge you to join the One Big Union (an appeal that I think is worthwhile) but ultimately, the real thing you can do to fix your union is to organize. Get together with your new coworkers and talk about what's wrong at the shop. Likely it'll be the issues with the boss, or the union, or both. Ask questions: what's wrong in the shop? How are workers being mistreated? Where is the union failing? Where is the union doing well? What can you, as workmates, do on the shopfloor to get things changed?

Um, YSR, turn the sectarianism down a notch, please. In terms of practical advice, how is anything I said fundamentally different than what you say here? Someone asked for advice on how to relate to their union, and I responded with some thoughts, both practical and theoretical, about a topic that I have more than a little experience with. And it's odd that you call what I put forward "FRSO crap" since actually the key thing I recommend is to read a book put out by Solidarity, another left group from the Trotskyist tradition. Oh, and by the way YSR, it's "UFCW", not "UFSW".

Anyway, I hope rampantuprising, who asked the initial question, can find useful ideas from all of us here, regardless of whether we're anarchists, communists, or whatever.

I would reiterate the best place to start for ideas as a revolutionary doing workplace organizing is Labor Notes book "Troublemakers Handbook".

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Don't be quoting Foster, he had some of the worst labor tactics on the planet. The troublemaker's Handbook is also overrated. Labornotes spends waaay to much time picking one set of "good" union bureaucrats over the "bad" ones. Nor does joining the IWW "isolate" you. If you join as a dual cardholder you can use the IWW as a tool to build rank and file militancy within your union.

[leftspot]

Don't be quoting Foster, he had some of the worst labor tactics on the planet. The troublemaker's Handbook is also overrated. Labornotes spends waaay to much time picking one set of "good" union bureaucrats over the "bad" ones. Nor does joining the IWW "isolate" you. If you join as a dual cardholder you can use the IWW as a tool to build rank and file militancy within your union.

I totally disagree about the Troublemaker's Handbook. It is jam packed with practical information on organizing from the rank and file within your union. I don't see why an IWW member wouldn't find it just as useful as any other worker looking to build the class struggle.

As for William Z Foster, you're totally off base. Foster was one of the greatest U.S. labor leaders in the 20th century. Can you be more specific about what tactics of Foster's you consider 'the worst labor tactics on the planet'?

I don't deny that the IWW does some great work. They have been involved in some very good campaigns that I support. But...how many workplaces in the U.S. have voted in the IWW as their union? How many of those aren't food co-ops, health food stores or other such small 'alternative' businesses? How many members does the IWW have? How many of those are radical students? Now compare those numbers to how many members the AFL and CTW represent. It's not even a comparison, and it seems clear enough to me that putting one's energy into building the IWW (a 'union' seemingly consisting just about entirely of radicalized students and some already-radical workers) rather than fighting to transform the union that actually represents all the workers in your workplace is a self-isolating act.

[Abluegreen7]

Unfortunately unions rarely do anything.:( Its just the truth. You need to oppose the companies policies if you ever want to get to anything at all. Or if things are that bad where your working you can organise a strike. People need there meat and if its not cut it can cause minor reprecussions not big but minor. Punish the exploiter where it hurts.

[Charles Xavier]

The last thing you want to do is join the IWW. They are a weak grouping, don't expect any strike pay if it leads to it in bargaining. You think the concession bargaining is bad now you don't want to see what happens with the IWW. The IWW has less then 900 people organized in its ranks, and spread throughout several countries, mostly in coffee shops where high minded University students work anyways. Do I need to say more?

The IWW will end up getting your members all ratted out. They usually hold a big meeting with all those interested in unionizing, then the company stood pigeons will rat everyone who shows up at the meeting and will end up losing your job one way or another.

Best thing to do is organize and agitate co-workers into something better and when it comes time to elections put forward a slate of popular and strong willed workers. By no means try to organize a wildcat strike when your not in leadership everyone who participates will be fired.

[chimx]

The last thing you want to do is join the IWW. They are a weak grouping, don't expect any strike pay if it leads to it in bargaining. You think the concession bargaining is bad now you don't want to see what happens with the IWW. The IWW has less then 900 people organized in its ranks, and spread throughout several countries, mostly in coffee shops where high minded University students work anyways. Do I need to say more?

The IWW will end up getting your members all ratted out. They usually hold a big meeting with all those interested in unionizing, then the company stood pigeons will rat everyone who shows up at the meeting and will end up losing your job one way or another.

Best thing to do is organize and agitate co-workers into something better and when it comes time to elections put forward a slate of popular and strong willed workers. By no means try to organize a wildcat strike when your not in leadership everyone who participates will be fired.

Apologies to all the IWW comrades that read this forum, but I actually agree entirely with this post.

[rampantuprising]

i definitely appreciate all the information you guys provided to me, i have begun speaking to low to mid level union members to address they're personal problems with the union and what they would like to see done about it, numbers are still pretty low, but i will keep you all updated on any developements.. thanks

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The last thing you want to do is join the IWW. They are a weak grouping, don't expect any strike pay if it leads to it in bargaining. You think the concession bargaining is bad now you don't want to see what happens with the IWW. The IWW has less then 900 people organized in its ranks, and spread throughout several countries, mostly in coffee shops where high minded University students work anyways. Do I need to say more?

The IWW will end up getting your members all ratted out. They usually hold a big meeting with all those interested in unionizing, then the company stood pigeons will rat everyone who shows up at the meeting and will end up losing your job one way or another.

Best thing to do is organize and agitate co-workers into something better and when it comes time to elections put forward a slate of popular and strong willed workers. By no means try to organize a wildcat strike when your not in leadership everyone who participates will be fired.

The IWW would be involved to help build militancy within the union, not to supplant it. Strike pay is an invention of legal no strike contracts. Ideally workers shouldn't strike en mass with legal notice. Workers should take action on the job so that they get paid to reduce profits. Strike pay and it's assorted fuctardery is a losing tactic.

The IWW also covertly organizes shops. however like all unions the IWW has meetings for those interested. This happens in nearly every union regardless.

Electing new union bosses has never changed a god damned thing. It's like voting for government, its not the candidates, its the institution thaat's fucked. Sweeny was supposed to be a "reform" candidate, now he's 100% establishment, Stern is "reform" and he supports yellow contracts. It's absurd. By all means wildcat strike. Legal obligations and contractualism are what got us in this problem in the first place. Workers need to use whatever tools they have at their disposal, and most of these are not sanctioned by labor law. And they're unsanctioned for a reason, because they work.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Apologies to all the IWW comrades that read this forum, but I actually agree entirely with this post.

*shrugs* Well you are something of a reformist. I like you as a person chimx but you're really not too interested in radical practice. You mostly talk about voting and building social democratic trade unions.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I totally disagree about the Troublemaker's Handbook. It is jam packed with practical information on organizing from the rank and file within your union. I don't see why an IWW member wouldn't find it just as useful as any other worker looking to build the class struggle.

As for William Z Foster, you're totally off base. Foster was one of the greatest U.S. labor leaders in the 20th century. Can you be more specific about what tactics of Foster's you consider 'the worst labor tactics on the planet'?

I don't deny that the IWW does some great work. They have been involved in some very good campaigns that I support. But...how many workplaces in the U.S. have voted in the IWW as their union? How many of those aren't food co-ops, health food stores or other such small 'alternative' businesses? How many members does the IWW have? How many of those are radical students? Now compare those numbers to how many members the AFL and CTW represent. It's not even a comparison, and it seems clear enough to me that putting one's energy into building the IWW (a 'union' seemingly consisting just about entirely of radicalized students and some already-radical workers) rather than fighting to transform the union that actually represents all the workers in your workplace is a self-isolating act.


The Troublemaker's Handbook is nice, but the orgs behind it suck. Teamsters for a democratic union and its ilk are just social democrats tired of being in conservative unions. They spend a lot of their time joining in on faction fights to no avail.

Foster left the IWW to "bore from within" which meant that communists would try and capture leadership positions within the business unions, without really changing the structures of the unions. It failed big time. The IWW was never the same and the communists were rooted out or turned reformist in their comfy positions.

The IWW is mostly composed of working class people. Its a myth that students and alternative businesses predominate. Our largest targets are immigrant warehouse workers in new york, trash collectors in san Fran, truckers in Cali, and starbucks workers all over. While we are small and growing, we do utilize direct action and that tends to help us win and punch above our weight. I think it makes perfect sense to try and radicalize existing unions, the IWW already has extensive dual carder networks for this very purpose. A number of sections focus primarily on this work. This is what I suggested here, since decertifcation and recertifcation is long and almost impossible.

And don't be talking about isolation. You're FRSO for christ sakes.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

i definitely appreciate all the information you guys provided to me, i have begun speaking to low to mid level union members to address they're personal problems with the union and what they would like to see done about it, numbers are still pretty low, but i will keep you all updated on any developements.. thanks


Good stuff mate. This is exactly what you should be doing. Good luck. :thumbup1:

[chimx]

*shrugs* Well you are something of a reformist. I like you as a person chimx but you're really not too interested in radical practice. You mostly talk about voting and building social democratic trade unions.

Hey, I like you too bud. It's okay that we disagree. From my experience, it is unlikely that working people will generally be willing to compromise their current economic security for a radical shift of political paradigms, unless there is some sort of outside force, such as a economic meltdown, that forces their hand. Short of economic depression, political turmoil, etc., I think class struggle is often times processive and we have to build the movement slowly from it's current reactionary level. Don't be mistaken, I'm a Marxist and a communist, but I have not seen much success in the political program you suggest (which is certainly unfortunate). I would be more than happy to be mistaken, but for now I'm just interested in improving the lives of working peoples. :wub::wub::wub:

[chimx]

To the original poster, here is an article that covers the ATU587 metro negotiations and touches on the creation of the caucus FORWARD inside of the union:

http://www.socialistalternative.com/news/article14.php?id=793

here is the caucus' website:

http://www.forward587.com/

[Charles Xavier]

The Troublemaker's Handbook is nice, but the orgs behind it suck. Teamsters for a democratic union and its ilk are just social democrats tired of being in conservative unions. They spend a lot of their time joining in on faction fights to no avail.

Foster left the IWW to "bore from within" which meant that communists would try and capture leadership positions within the business unions, without really changing the structures of the unions. It failed big time. The IWW was never the same and the communists were rooted out or turned reformist in their comfy positions.

The IWW is mostly composed of working class people. Its a myth that students and alternative businesses predominate. Our largest targets are immigrant warehouse workers in new york, trash collectors in san Fran, truckers in Cali, and starbucks workers all over. While we are small and growing, we do utilize direct action and that tends to help us win and punch above our weight. I think it makes perfect sense to try and radicalize existing unions, the IWW already has extensive dual carder networks for this very purpose. A number of sections focus primarily on this work. This is what I suggested here, since decertifcation and recertifcation is long and almost impossible.

And don't be talking about isolation. You're FRSO for christ sakes.

Okay lets support the IWW they got 900 organized workers. And fuck the other unions they are hardly bigger with millions of members.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Okay lets support the IWW they got 900 organized workers. And fuck the other unions they are hardly bigger with millions of members.

Closer to around 3-4 thousand these days. Anyway, if you read my posts you'll see that I support rank and file work within major unions. But well those unions aren't exactly growing and they only represent 12 percent of the workforce.

[chimx]

I think that is more a problem with changes in the American economy and the outsourcing of skilled laborer jobs, as well as technological changes that have removed skill labor jobs (automation, new construction systems, etc). And of course, with the shift to a service sector economy in the US, the service sector union, the SEIU (horrible union btw) is growing.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I think that is more a problem with changes in the American economy and the outsourcing of skilled laborer jobs, as well as technological changes that have removed skill labor jobs (automation, new construction systems, etc). And of course, with the shift to a service sector economy in the US, the service sector union, the SEIU (horrible union btw) is growing.

That's part of it, but union density and power started dropping once legal frameworks and contractualism became the defining characteristics of labor unions. Unions stopped being worker's fighting organizations and became mediation teams for labor bargaining, mediation teams staffed by fat bureaucrats. No matter the economy service or industrial, Labor unions lost. But we should not forget that the west is still a big industrial player. In terms of dollars we manufacture more than China. GM is adding 36,000 new jobs now that UAW has been disciplined at american axel.

[Charles Xavier]

Closer to around 3-4 thousand these days. Anyway, if you read my posts you'll see that I support rank and file work within major unions. But well those unions aren't exactly growing and they only represent 12 percent of the workforce.

I don't know the statistics for the US but Union membership in Canada is about 25% of the working population with 4.48 million members in 2007. Working within the main trade union movement is important to create any changes within it. Working outside it will allow you to be easy targets. I think 4.4 million is larger than a couple thousand spread over several countries completely remote from each other and not apart of any labour federation. Ideally, there should be 1 union for each Industry, one federation of trade unions in each country. Its our job to make sure the right-wing social democratic leadership in the trade union movement gives labour a fighting chance against capital. Not separate with them because they are not revolutionaries. Its our job to make these trade unions revolutionary. It is not an easy task in the imperialist countries. Especially when the trade union bureaucrats only look at the bottom line when it comes to organizing shops. Not willing to spend more than they will gain. And a huge unwillingness to support mass movements seriously.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I don't know the statistics for the US but Union membership in Canada is about 25% of the working population with 4.48 million members in 2007. Working within the main trade union movement is important to create any changes within it. Working outside it will allow you to be easy targets. I think 4.4 million is larger than a couple thousand spread over several countries completely remote from each other and not apart of any labour federation. Ideally, there should be 1 union for each Industry, one federation of trade unions in each country. Its our job to make sure the right-wing social democratic leadership in the trade union movement gives labour a fighting chance against capital. Not separate with them because they are not revolutionaries. Its our job to make these trade unions revolutionary. It is not an easy task in the imperialist countries. Especially when the trade union bureaucrats only look at the bottom line when it comes to organizing shops. Not willing to spend more than they will gain. And a huge unwillingness to support mass movements seriously.


Taking over the leadership positions in legal unions won't help a damn. I dunno about you, but my canadian comrades tell me that its near on impossible to sign a contract that doesn't have a no strike clause. In other words, Canadian unions that operate via legal contractualism are perpetually doomed to take up reformist and collaboraionist positions. It is in the direct interest of the piecards to stifle militancy.

So how do we address this? Well a good thing is dual carding with the IWW. In a number of canadian cities there's a strong IWW dual card network that pushes a no contract, direct action approach within the mainstream unions.

[Charles Xavier]

Taking over the leadership positions in legal unions won't help a damn. I dunno about you, but my canadian comrades tell me that its near on impossible to sign a contract that doesn't have a no strike clause. In other words, Canadian unions that operate via legal contractualism are perpetually doomed to take up reformist and collaboraionist positions. It is in the direct interest of the piecards to stifle militancy.

So how do we address this? Well a good thing is dual carding with the IWW. In a number of canadian cities there's a strong IWW dual card network that pushes a no contract, direct action approach within the mainstream unions.
There are not illegal unions in Canada?