the collapse of the USSR - why?

[Just Joe]

Cassius, tell me why the Soviet Union collapsed, if it was economically in good shape and it was a free democratic country.

[Totalitarian]

Free and democratic? What planet are you on?

[HankMorgan]

The Soviet Union collapsed because when people don't work for themselves, they don't work at all. The nation with the greatest number and quantity of resources on the planet couldn't feed itself.

The individual must take precedence over the state.

[Liberty Lover]

The Soviet Union collapsed due to the Reforms implemented by Mikhail Gorbachev. There is a phenomenem throghout history that if a a people living under a totalitarian goverment are granted minor freemdoms it feeds their determination to acquire more.

Gorbi gave the Russian people a few minor reforms (such as Freedom of the press). This resulted in mass protests demanding further reforms (mainly democracy) throughout all of Eastern Europe. Before you know it the republics were determining their own fate and the CPSU's grip over Russia had loosened so much that it was impossible to re-tighten.

The case was similar for the fall of tsarism. The roots of the revolution of 1917 were planted with the reforms of Alexander II in the 1860's.

[Pacifism first]

insightfull LL

[Kapitan Andrey]

Yes...It's sad to say, but Liberty Lover is almost right.

People was FUCKEN OUT by communist ideology!!! I know this because my parents lived more than I did, in communist country!!!

That was really !<stupid>! ideology!!! It's not my own opinion!

[Cassius Clay]

Just Joe, ofcourse the Soviet Union was neither 'free', 'democratic' or 'Economically in good shape' when it collapsed, otherwise it wouldn't of collapsed would it.

Stagnation is an obvious answer which I'm sure everybody will agree on, the difference is when this started to happen, under the 'Stalinist beacruacracy' or 'Khruschev's revisionism'. What fell was not socialism but a corrupt, self indulgent elite who gave not a dam about the working classes. Khruschev decentralised the economy giving to much power to local managers who abused their power, Brezhneve reigned over corruption, beuarcracy (which mean't stagnation) and introduced what turned out to be a economy run for profit, not socialism. Gorbachev was the final step of decades of revisionism.

The collapse of the USSR proves one thing, that Stalin was right when he said the class struggle increases under Socialism.

LL, if Gorbachev introduced so much freedoms and liberty's for the Russians why is he despised throughout the nation, why did he get less than 1% of the vote in the Election? The answer is that he sold out the Soviet Union along with Yelstin to western capital, when the people throughout the Union voted to keep the USSR he sent Yelstin and co who wen't and signed away the USSR unconsitutionaly, illegally, against the people's will and they knew that was what they were doing, hence why they signed it right on the border with Poland lest they had to make a quick escape.

BTW have you found any of those 20 million bodies yet?

Oh and Just Joe, you seem to ridicule USSR's democracy in the 30's, I will ask once again what is so hard to understand about the article I posted?

[Just Joe]

you said in the other thread that the Soviet Union was a democratic country and you debated if US living standards were better than that of the Russians.

the facts tell a different story. the facts say that the Soviet Union was a totalitarian monstor from its birth to its end. it was economically inefficient because its economy was based on the Stalinist- top down, model. it wasn't a democratically planned economy, its was a dictated economy where the Politburo acted as the new slave masters and told the workers what to do and what they;d be payed. if the workers went against this, they were enemies of the people. i suppose youre gonna go off on one about how i can't back this all up? well i have one bit of evidence that even you can't deny- the USSR's catastrophic collapse.

you put it down to decades of revisionism when the very thing that brought the USSR to its end was the Stalinism of the 30's. the repression of thought, the military industrial complex spending, the imperialism, the undemocratic economy or political system and the arms spending were all factors in the demise of the country. where as the reforms brought in by men like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, were feeble attempts to rescue Stalinism from the brink of death. they did what they could, but the bureacracy Stalin created killed Marxism-Leninism.

[Cassius Clay]

Just Joe you started this thread to ask why the Soviet Union collapsed, I gave you my opinion and you've come up with the above, whose points I have all argued at the 'Authoritarians' thread. You speak of 'Facts' but you've yet to provide any and I've refuted the above, quite frankly I'm not prepared to do it again. Come back to the 'Authoritarians' thread and now answer my points for once.

[RED RAGE]

I dont no why any of you even call the USSR a communsit country, it wasnt communist in any way in reality. Anything held under a dictator is a complete contridiction to what communism is. It was NOT DEMOCRATIC and it was NOT FREE. Most importantly, it was NOT COMMUNIST in any way. All past and present "communist counties" in my view, are not communist at all. They are a contridiction in themselves. :cool:

[Mazdak]

"the reforms brought in by men like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, were feeble attempts to rescue Stalinism from the brink of death. "


ROFLMAO That is by far the funniest thing anyone could ever say on this site. You have made my day.

[Ymir]

Just Joe- "the reforms brought in by men like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, were feeble attempts to rescue Stalinism from the brink of death. "

Remember Khrushchev denouncing "Stalinism"? Khrushchev made reforms contradictory to Stalin's policies...and Gorbachev, he was worse than Khrushchev! So don't think that Khrushchev and Gorbachev were Stalinists, it is a disgrace to Stalin!

[Just Joe]

Khrushchev wanted to save Soviet Communism- which is Stalinism. he knew the people weren't going for it when the East German workers rebelled when Stalin died. he had to make concessions. ever since Khrushchev, the Soviet government had to make concession after concession until eventually, Stalinism collapsed.

i always find it funny when Stalinists blame Gorby for the collapse of the USSR. seeing how he was the perfect product of the Stalinist system. because the party ruled every day life, people joined to simply have a career. Gorbachev was a present day Social Democrat at best but still snuck into the party. the very fabric of Stalinism; the party, was the vehicle that destroyed the Soviet Union.

[Ymir]

Joe, I think you are mistaken. Gorbachev was a result of years of revisionism started in the Khrushchev era. Stalinism does not equal Soviet Communism. Stalinism was a period of Soviet Communism.

[Just Joe]

why was revisionism needed?

[Blibblob]

Another stupid stalinist v.s. everybody else debate...

[Ymir]

Revisionism was not needed, Joe. lol. Revisionism was a process of decay that ate the CCCP from the inside. To understand how the CCCP was destroyed, you have to understand the events leading to it's collapse. I have concluded that it started with the death of Stalin, and went downward from that point.

[Just Joe]

so if the Stalinist system was so good, what was the reasoning behind Khrushchevs' 'de-stalinisation'? he can't of just done it for a laugh.

the death of the USSR started when Lenin turned a Socialist state into a police one. maybe it started with the attempt on his life which made way for the 'Red Terror'.

[Ymir]

I can only make assumptions at Khrushchev's 'de-stalinisation' policy, but I believe he was a conspiring traitor ( he had some of Stalin's best men killed) and when he was in power he seemed more like a diplomat of the upper class. I have not seen photos of him working, like of Stalin, but I have seen many photos of him hunting with other men in the wilderness, or swimming in a pool with his grandson, or drinking wine with Fidel Castro. I will post those pictures in a new thread.

Simplified, his de-stalinisation made the hardworking revolutionary (Stalin) appear to be a tyrant, and the charismatically challenged (Khrushchev) to be a 'simple man' a man of the working class. A good way for Khrushchev to spend his days letting the CCCP rot while he enjoyed himself.

[Pete]

These are educational debates. On the history of the CCCP I mean.
I just noticed some things as I read through the thread that I wanted to point out. I forget where I read the post that triggered me to say these, but here we go.

1) The CCCP was not a dictatorship from 1917-1991. Actually during the 30's there was direct democracy at the Soviet levels for the workers. I have read this in various Stalin vs Trostky threads where obth sides agreed. Aswell the worker could displace the manager. From 1917-1923 the Soviets where alive and well, I remember reading that Lenin was trying to spread all of the powers to the Soviets, but the hostilities of the Western World (that ended in 1921, and the civil war in 1923) meant that a centralized power base was needed.

2. The only way a pure communist nation can exist is for it to be global. Cuba is a Dictatorship of the Proletairait, but extremely democratic. Even more so then America or Canada.

3. There was more but my mind forgot them

~~Keep posting everyone, educate us! ~~

[Liberty Lover]

"LL, if Gorbachev introduced so much freedoms and liberty's for the Russians why is he despised throughout the nation, why did he get less than 1% of the vote in the Election?"

I said minor reforms, I never said he was popular and the reason he only got 0.5% of the vote was because he upheld soviet values.

[Liberty Lover]

That was some of the most ludicrious shit you have ever posted CrazyPete. You should get me onto some of the crap you read...i'm in need of a good laugh.

"The CCCP was not a dictatorship from 1917-1991."

Your just damn lucky SN no longer has his "ignorant statments hall of fame"

[Liberty Lover]

"BTW have you found any of those 20 million bodies yet?"

You should check this link out Cassius Clay.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pjones/russian/

[Invader Zim]

WOW LL im amazed. For once a Cappie has provided a good link which actually says relevent things.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Just Joe
>"the reforms brought in by men like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, were feeble attempts to rescue Stalinism from the brink of death. "<

Yea...really STUPID quote from IDIOT!!!

[Cassius Clay]

LL, if I wanted to read Robert Conquest I would go down to my local library. '6 or 7 million died in the Ukraine Famine' that figure is the average mean taken from a series of figures by such nice people as the German press from the 30's, Ukrainian Fascists who took part in the genocide of the Jews and media tycoon and red-baiter William Randolph Hearst (who was a friend of Hitler) oh yeah and there's also Franco Fascist supporter Alexander Soljenistyn.

Go here.

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

[Liberty Lover]

What the fuck does Robert Conquest have to do with the Library of Congress?

[Cassius Clay]

Sorry I couldn't tell the difference.

[Just Joe]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 8:21 am on Feb. 28, 2003
"LL, if Gorbachev introduced so much freedoms and liberty's for the Russians why is he despised throughout the nation, why did he get less than 1% of the vote in the Election?"

I said minor reforms, I never said he was popular and the reason he only got 0.5% of the vote was because he upheld soviet values.


thats wrong. the Russian Stalinist almost won that election youre talking about. evidently some people still like the Soviet Union in Russia but i'd say its more because of the state of Russian Capitalism than a genuine wish to return to totalitarianism.

[Just Joe]

Quote: from Kapitan Andrey on 9:53 am on Feb. 28, 2003
Just Joe
>"the reforms brought in by men like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, were feeble attempts to rescue Stalinism from the brink of death. "<

Yea...really STUPID quote from IDIOT!!!


another dazzling reply from Kapitain Andrey.

[Towelly]

Maybe iy`s because i`m new but why are stalinists tolerated when(thankfully)nazis are not?I fail to see the difference morally between Stalinism and National "Socialism".

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Just Joe on 11:48 am on Feb. 28, 2003

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 8:21 am on Feb. 28, 2003
"LL, if Gorbachev introduced so much freedoms and liberty's for the Russians why is he despised throughout the nation, why did he get less than 1% of the vote in the Election?"

I said minor reforms, I never said he was popular and the reason he only got 0.5% of the vote was because he upheld soviet values.


thats wrong. the Russian Stalinist almost won that election youre talking about. evidently some people still like the Soviet Union in Russia but i'd say its more because of the state of Russian Capitalism than a genuine wish to return to totalitarianism.


I'm taliking about the 1996 Russian presidential election in which Gorbachev run, portraying himself as a moerate and experienced canditate in favour of democratic socialism (that of course is either not democratic or not socialism). He was anything but a stalinist and managed to get only 386, 000 votes (0.5%) in the first round. Hardly a near victory Just Joe.

[Just Joe]

in the 1996 election, the leader of the Stalinist Communist Party of the Russian Federation got about 40% of the vote. if the people hated Gorbachev because he represented the USSR, they wouldn't have voted for a much more extreme Stalinist in such big numbers. i think the Communist Party is still the most popular party today.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Just Joe on 10:23 pm on Feb. 28, 2003
in the 1996 election, the leader of the Stalinist Communist Party of the Russian Federation got about 40% of the vote. if the people hated Gorbachev because he represented the USSR, they wouldn't have voted for a much more extreme Stalinist in such big numbers. i think the Communist Party is still the most popular party today.

That's the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (no stalanist there). They recieved 22.3% in the 1996 Duma elections. And the most popular party in Russia is Medved.

[Just Joe]

election results: State Duma - percent of vote received by parties clearing the 5% threshold entitling them to a proportional share of the 225 party list seats - KPRF 24.29%, Unity 23.32%, OVR 13.33%, Union of Right Forces 8.52%, LDPR 5.98%, Yabloko 5.93%; seats by party - KPRF 113, Unity 72, OVR 67, Union of Rightist Forces 29, LDPR 17, Yabloko 21, other 16, independents 106, repeat election required 8, vacant 1
elections: State Duma - last held 19 December 1999 (next to be held NA December 2003)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...os/rs.html#Govt (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html#Govt)

[Just Joe]

the Communist Party is Stalinist.

even if they weren't, it still doesn't add up that the people would vote in high numbers for the Communists and vote against Gorbachev because he represented the USSR.

[Liberty Lover]

I never claimed he did represent the USSR

[Just Joe]

wow, for something so unimportant this has dragged. see you in another debate :)

[Liberty Lover]

:)

[RedPirate]

You know if the U.S.S.R was still around today something would have been done (Not that I would it too). With todays leaders if it was till around I have a feeling it would have been a disaster waiting to happen. L.L. even though we disagree on absolutley everything nice little debate there.