What does everybody think of the stock market?

[American Kid]

An open-ended question for sure, but one I thought of today and would appreciate any feedback I could get. From all. The Lefties and the Righties. Totally biased. I'm serious, take the kid gloves off.

I'm curious as to it's place in a socialistic gov. Specifically in the event a "change-over" would happen, if it was in replacement of a "formally" capitalistic gov.

Since I can remember, the 'market's always been a cornerstone of the society I grew up in. On TV they scrawl the numbers at the bottom of the screen on the news channels. People go to school for years and years to work in it. They become professionals, have careers; buy houses which they raise families in, get pensions, retire.

Some people invest, and if they're savvy, win big. Others lose everything. It's a tricky thing. And, in my case, as a young American, something that's always been there. A bedrock of society. If things "shifted" the other way, what would happen to it?

Do the left-wingers see it as entirely evil?

Is is indicative of the destruction of capitalism?

I'm curious. Either way.
-aK


(Edited by American Kid at 12:08 pm on Feb. 26, 2003)

[synthesis]

In my opinion, someone who creates outrageous amounts of capital off of playing the stock market is as equally worthless to society, on objective terms, as the factory owner. It's simply a zero sum activity, like a banker.

Now to my real opinion on these people.

The market player knows that he will make money only if he supports those corporations which make money. A corporation with its own best interests in mind is not particularly going to want to implement a minimum wage, allow labor unions, prevent child labor, and so forth - in part, to please the market-player.

Therefore, someone of this profession is not directly damaging the welfare of the world, but he's surely contributing to it.

(sorry if I started rambling...i'm on this wierd prescription cough syrup shit)

[American Kid]

Not rambling at all. Interesting. Appreciate it.

More opinions, people.

Also, Dyer, I'm curious (this is something of an obsession of mine) what's your healthcare coverage like out on the west coast where you live? Because I had to get some "special" ;) syrup myself last December, and, apparently the Commonwealth of Massachusetts doesn't believe I need cough medication, because their state-run health insurance (Masshealth- which I'm "thankfully", just under the poverty line enough to qualify for) wouldn't cover it, and I paid about 30$ for a little bottle of shit that didn't even work.

Thank God the great Senator of my state, Ted Kennedy, is working to fix this "situation" for the whole country. And hopefully he'll succeed before the Feds get him like they got his two brothers.

Again though, appreciate it. Take care of that cough.

-Ak

(Edited by American Kid at 9:53 am on Feb. 26, 2003)

[HankMorgan]

Two great things happen in the stock market.

1. Ideas get the capital to become a new way to create wealth. To put it in the language of the communist, ideas become the means of production.

2. It is possible for anyone to buy a share of stock and become an owner of a company. Again to put it in the language of the communist, it becomes possible to literally own the means of production. Someone of modest means can own General Motors AND Microsoft, all the while saving for retirement.

[Exploited Class]

The stock market is the legal casino where the house always win. Its the ruling class's tool and they intend on always walking away winners.

We are already seeing inflated earning reports, abuses of investments by employers, falsified records, investments wiped out, retirements wiped out, all for one reason and that is the bottom line profit and an excess of it.

The people hurt by all this? Us, the normal hardworking want to be able to retire and not worry when we are old backbone of the world. We aren't particulary good with money, we all know someday we won't be able to work and we don't have 40 hours a week to spend learning on all the market terms. So sometimes we give a small percentage of our meager wages to those experts in hopes of just peace of mind come our useless years. What do we find? Merrill Lynch in trouble for insider trading schemes. Its not for us, it is set up for them.

Its their casino. The ruling class gets our loaned out wages back in different ways. Tax incentives given to them, government contract jobs, tax cuts to them, us paying for goods or services, all of which go back up to them with the hopes that it comes back down in small amounts to us to give back up to them.

They have the stock market and want us to put money into so they can have it. The one thing they couldn't touch was our social security so now they are pushing for that also to go into thier market. They give us tax incentives to put our money into 401K's so that it can come back into their market.

The only people hurt by the market is us. The market goes down or stock prices for a company goes down, then we get laid off so to push the price back up so the CEO that has a few couple thousand shares can get their money back. If it goes way down, most of them have golden parachutes and escape poverty or have the ability with 100's of millions to diversify much better than we can. Or in the long term for somebody with 300 million to lose 150 million to lowered stock prices is one thing they can recoup, but for somebody to only have 100,000 dollars invested for retirement taking 50,000 dollar hit hurts them.

They don't feel the effects of the sway of the market like we do. It does very little to ever help those of us that actually make product.

[synthesis]

Our healthcare turned to shit recently because of all the budget cuts. This is on top of the fact that the school just cut back the start of summer for public schools UNTIL FUCKING MARCH!

I like Portland, but seriously... what the fuck?

[mentalbunny]

I do not like the Stock market, I think it's wrong to spend your life just buying and selling bits of companies to make your living, I deplore it, I wish it didn't exsist and I wish there was a way of ignoring it, but in my plane of existence that it impossible as all the rich buggers use it to invest.

[Old Friend]

In my opinion, someone who creates outrageous amounts of capital off of playing the stock market is as equally worthless to society, on objective terms, as the factory owner. It's simply a zero sum activity, like a banker.

With statements like this, it has become necessary for me to chime in on this topic. However, I need my beauty sleep, so it will have to wait. You really don't have a clue. Do you, dyer-maker?

[hawarameen]

here is just a bit (there is shitloads more) of an article i posted a while ago on how business is working in a socialist framework. i know this thread is about the stock market but business is synonymous with shares/stocks

But in spite of U.S. harassment and meddling, Cuba has found scores of new trading partners, and has embarked on joint ventures and foreign-investment projects with firms from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Mexico, Russia, Spain, and other countries as well. These projects range from the construction of five-star hotels to enterprises in mining, oil exploration, telecommunications, and biotechnology. And many of the projects are not small. Investment projects include a $1.5 billion deal with a Mexican telecommunications company, a $500 million nickel-mining venture with a Canadian company, a $500 million mining deal with an Australian company, and a $500 million textile deal with a Mexican company. A Monte Carlo-based company built a new terminal in Havana harbor for cruise ships, which has already opened for business. At last count there were 240 joint ventures in Cuba, involving fifty-seven countries in forty areas of the economy. The foreign investment projects announced to date total some $5 billion.

For seven years Cuba has been actively investing in new modes of production, restructuring the economy, and establishing new trade relations around the globe. Now the investments may be starting to pay off. After five years of a sinking GDP, the economic decline came to a halt in 1994: Cuba showed a slight growth in GDP of 0.7 percent. The GDP grew by 2.5 percent in 1995. In the first half of 1996 (the most recent figures available at the time this magazine went to press) the GDP was growing at 9.6 percent, with continued annual growth projected.

THE economic changes in Cuba go to the very structure of the Cuban economy. Joint ventures have been permitted since 1982, but for many years the foreign partner could not hold more than a 49 percent share unless there were exceptional circumstances.

In 1995 nickel production increased about 65 percent, tobacco 52 percent, and tourism 20 percent. Exports increased 20 percent, and imports 21 percent. Fifty thousand new homes are under construction. Cuba's biotechnology industry competes in the world market, with more than 160 products developed by fifty-three research centers, ranging from genetically engineered crop seeds that are disease-resistant to a vaccine for hepatitis B. The level of Cuban tourism is now greater than it was at its height in pre-revolutionary Cuba. In 1994 Cuba had 617,000 tourists, putting it on a par with Aruba and the U.S. Virgin Islands. In 1995 the number of tourists was conservatively estimated at 750,000. Income from tourism grew from $165 million in 1989 to more than $850 million in 1994 and to $1 billion in 1995. From January to April of last year -- the period in which the Cuban-American planes were shot down and the Helms-Burton bill was passed -- Cuba had 375,000 tourists, an increase of 44 percent from the same period the year before.

[redstar2000]

If I could remember the exact source, then I could quote the exact words.

But Marx said that the stock market was a mechanism for separating small capitalists from their capital.

One more verdict that has stood the test of time.

:cool:

[Capitalist Imperial]

One word: Opportunity

The American stockmarket, through peaks and valleys, has always trended up. if you take the long position (as any true investor should), you will benefit. In the long run, a bet against the American stock market is a bad one.

Those who equate investing with gambling, or compare the free market to a casino, are both oversimplifying and grossly displaying their utter ignorance.

That was not a flame, it really is a misinformed position that inviesting is like gambling, because it is almost the exact opposite. In investing you can improve your performance thrrough experience and research, there are no "fixed odds". In investing, both "the house" (American Businesses,, commodities, and other securities) and investors can mutually win. That is the synergy of the capitalist equation:

A litte $$$ + great ideas and innovations = more $$$ than we had before.

Is there risk? Yes, but it can be offset through diligence and doing your homework, and only investing what you are willing to risk in the 1st place.

[Pete]

The Stock Market is the personification of Capitalism. There are no rules that show how the system flucauates. Anyone who says they completely understand how it works lie. It is like trying to count a card shuffling machine like in The Rainman. You gotta be a super genius and lacking in all other areas to do so. Otherwise its jsut not possible.

If you check out the thing in Politics (i think) about Why the Bosses Need Us it gets down to it. Stock holders only pay for the company and then profit off other people's labour. It is bullshit. Almost like the stockholders are taxing the wage workers out of their product. This is one reason why the inequalities exist. The company works for the stock holders, not the itself. It also allows useless industries to be created.

[canikickit]

The stock market? That's where you make money by manipulating other peoples money? Sounds shit.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Its 100% voluntary, bottom line.

If you don't like the game, don't play.

But stop player-hating from the sidelines.

[Pete]

Our labour is used for the stock holders good whether we like it your not. You know that don't be so stupid C.I.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 3:38 am on Feb. 27, 2003
Our labour is used for the stock holders good whether we like it your not. You know that don't be so stupid C.I.

Actually, CP, don't you be stupid. You are not confined merely to laboring, as most of your reds always imply.

Start your own company.

[Eastside Revolt]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 3:33 am on Feb. 27, 2003
Its 100% voluntary, bottom line.

If you don't like the game, don't play.

But stop player-hating from the sidelines.

SIDELINES!!!!!!!!!!!!

We just don't have enough chips to play in the so called "game"(more like the FEED)

SIDELINES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who's on tha sidelines you motherfuckers sit there and preach like you're working while we labour for you assholes and have to pretend to like it to get a pycheck.

SIDELINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You vultures lick your chops at the sight of war.Who is on tha sidelines?

SIDELINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll sideline you PLAYA!!!!! WHAT!!!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

come get some, then, son

you know your just my canuck *****

[American Kid]

*appreciates everyone's feedback*

lol, although redcanada and my friend Capitalist Imperial are sort of...uh, like, "coloring outside the lines". Play nice, kids. :)

-aK

[HankMorgan]

We just don't have enough chips to play in the so called "game"(more like the FEED)

That's the beauty of it, my friend. A person with next to no chips at all can own Fosters Brewing.

[Exploited Class]

THinking that because you own a share of a company makes you an owner is either an illusion or delusion of grandeur. Its a feel good sentiment like Wall-Mart's giving a share to their employees to make them "One of the family". The only owners are large percentage stock holders that sit on the board.

Now maybe if we took a time machine and went back to before 1940 when they had stock holder meetings and such I might be able to somewhat take that statement of sunshine without the taste of bile in my mouth. Then you were somewhat of an owner with a vote, although even lately I was sent my "owners" statement for JBLU along with a vote on wether or not to give the CEO a raise, I had to be a significant stock holder to recieve that. Also I only am able to vote on maybe the most mundaine of company actions. I think we can vote the CEO out of office or something like that, but even then the board picks the new hire. Also the board can decide to not even send the vote on removing the CEO to the stock holders and just do it themselves. So really you aren't an owner, you are a lending firm. You are lending them money on the hopes that they return profit and their stock goes up in value.

They make neat monthly portfolio statements which make the small investors feel important and there is never a bad word among any of it. There is some profit analyasis brochures, travel discountants, things that none of the real investors take seriously. A lot of smiling clerks pictures. Its all hype and a giant commercial of happiness wrapped in a blanket of sillyness.

It really makes me feel like a member of the team.

So at least Hank now I know why I get those in the mail, there are people with small amounts of investment cash that really get off on "being an owner". But everybody else knows exactly what it is, here is money, return it to me with more or I take my money and break you and all your employees. And no silly 20 page brochure they send you makes you feel any more important.

[Old Friend]

Our labour is used for the stock holders good whether we like it your not. You know that don't be so stupid C.I.

Have you ever stopped to consider this. Without the capital generated by issuing stocks, corporations wouldn't have the ability to conduct the research and development that has enhanced our lives. You say that stockholders manipulate the labor of those their money helps employ, but I say that without the stockmarket there would be a larger segment of the population whose labor was not needed. Bottom line, the stockmarket creates jobs, sometimes for the miserable letches who wish to destroy such a system and replace it with a command economy. Those who subcribe to such thinking, neither understand the complexities of the market or the products it has helped to produce. In my estimation, those most vocal about the "unfairness" of the market fall into this category and are the useless eaters who offer nothing to human kind. They are the bottom-feeders who comprise the free-rider problem. Yet another reason I hate the left.

[Exploited Class]

Without the capital generated by issuing stocks, corporations wouldn't have the ability to conduct the research and development that has enhanced our lives.
hehehe, nice.
Actually companies do not use capital generated by stocks for research and development. When they want to expand a great deal or invest in new technologies they go to a finance insitution. They also release public bonds. The only thing stocks play a part in at that point is the companies overall net worth. It will help in determining what type of bond they are issuing, AAA, AA, A type bonds. Bonds will have a much lower rate of paying back and is exactly measurable. They can also recall bonds back much easier than buy back stocks, to remove outstanding debts.

That being set aside, I don't think buisnesses that has a net income of 15 billion need any type of loans from a stock market to do research. There is another reason for the stock market. Per my first post.

As far as saying that the Stock Market should not be considered a casino, it should be, it is a casino. The same type of investment portfolio's you can research to get a good idea of your financial investments and long term or short term gains is no different than studying blackjack to get ahead.

As far as studying a company and researching them well prior to investment. I would love to see somebody here be able to accuratly research a conglomerate like GE prior to initial investment. Because you would only need to probably take a good look at the 40 different companies that make up GE, NBC, Honeywell..ect..ect

Then tell me what their investments in textiles are S. America, what is their Asian market investment vs. debt consolidation in aircraft construction? How is the fuel assemblies market they are heavily invested in Europe on going to pan out vs. their competitors? How much is the cost increase in overall steel tarriffs going to effect long term construction cost in aircraft and nuclear manufacturing sector. On their projected forcasts on year end profitability have they accounted for increase costs do to rising fuel prices or weighed in costs increases in their shipping?

I would love to see anyone be able to while working a 40 hour a week job actualy look into a company. Or by "research" do you mean you look at the brokerage reports and maybe a couple of independent? Then by going off their proffesional estimates invest according to that? Well hell I guess Merrill or Capital Access rates GE an A+, I should go into that.

Because if that is the research you are suggesting, might as well walk into a casino, as the floor boss to pick the color and number to lay your chips down on.

I'd take red 24.

[Pete]

"They are the bottom-feeders who comprise the free-rider problem"

The people who work their asses off to make a living are BOTTOMFEEDERS??? Norman really. Think about that. I work 20 - 30 hours a week to pay for my education, and then someone who owns a stock in the company can sit on their ass and sell their stocks to get money from my work. How am I a bottom feeder? It seems that the stockmarket is the haven of the bottom feeders if anything else.

"Without the capital generated by issuing stocks, corporations wouldn't have the ability to conduct the research and development that has enhanced our lives"

The capital is genated through the labour of the workers and the products they create or services they provide. Their is a gap between how much they are paid and how much their work is worth, which creates a profit and plays with the values of stocks. The money comes from the mechanizims inside of capitalism that create the gap between value and pay. Like wage labour.