The Right's "Judeo-Bolshevism"

[Raj Radical]

Can someone explain to me how the far-right can continue to believe that Communism is "Zionist ideology" to enslave the world, despite the fact that every single other Jewish leftist I know is either anti or post-Zionist, along with almost every Communist organization I know. Is it just brute-stupid antisemitism, or have they found some ideological way to bypass this contradiction?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Also, most Zionists are not leftists, let alone revolutionary leftists. :)

[Red_or_Dead]

Can someone explain to me how the far-right can continue to believe that Communism is "Zionist ideology" to enslave the world, despite the fact that every single other Jewish leftist I know is either anti or post-Zionist, along with almost every Communist organization I know. Is it just brute-stupid antisemitism, or have they found some ideological way to bypass this contradiction?


I dont know if they have an ideological explanation, but even if it does exist, its probably bollocks.

I would say that it is just another example of the black&white view of the world: they happen to be against communism and zionism, so somewhere along the line they merged the two in their tiny brains. Of course they never remebered that we are agaisnt zionism as well.

Its not the only case of merging enemy ideologies: Ive been called a muslim commie countless time before, because I oppose the US policy in the middle east.

[Ismail]

For us, Zionism is the belief that Israel either should or must exist in its historical land despite other conditions. It's nationalist, whereas Communism is internationalist. We also argue that Jews were not a nation (note difference between nation and state) and even today it is the Israelis, not Jews across the world, that are developing nation status. For nutters, Zionism = Jews. Saying that you're against Zionism to anyone who seriously uses the word "Judeo-Bolshevism" will be completely futile. They'll say "No you aren't, you are in the service of the international Jewish bankers" or whatever.

It isn't "Oh they're dumb so they got Zionism and Communism mixed up", they have a different view than us on what it actually is.

[Philosophical Materialist]

It's typical far-right thinking (or is that non-thinking?)

They see that some Jews were involved in the Bolshevik Revolution, ergo they characterise the whole thing as a Jewish conspiracy. When some Jews are bankers, they characterise all bankers as Jewish.

No matter what professions or movements individual Jews are involved in, the far-right believe them to be all run by a Jewish super-conspiracy.

The anti-Semites are of course idiots and the sight of Jews anywhere causes the nazis to dribble spittle down their brownshirts. "It's teh JOOOOOOOOS conspiracy!!!!1111"

[Raj Radical]

For us, Zionism is the belief that Israel either should or must exist in its historical land despite other conditions. It's nationalist, whereas Communism is internationalist. We also argue that Jews were not a nation (note difference between nation and state) and even today it is the Israelis, not Jews across the world, that are developing nation status. For nutters, Zionism = Jews. Saying that you're against Zionism to anyone who seriously uses the word "Judeo-Bolshevism" will be completely futile. They'll say "No you aren't, you are in the service of the international Jewish bankers" or whatever.

It isn't "Oh they're dumb so they got Zionism and Communism mixed up", they have a different view than us on what it actually is.

I would say that Jews are a nation. Not in the sense of a nation-state, but because of the fact that you can't describe Jews as merely an ethnicity, or merely a religion, because Jewishness incorporates threads of both. I would say the word "nation" or "civilization" would be the most accurate, but of course it is merely semantics and of little importance.

[Ismail]

I would say that Jews are a nation. Not in the sense of a nation-state, but because of the fact that you can't describe Jews as merely an ethnicity, or merely a religion, because Jewishness incorporates threads of both. I would say the word "nation" or "civilization" would be the most accurate, but of course it is merely semantics and of little importance.Jews aren't a nation. They never had a unified identity. Polish Jews were completely different from Chinese Jews who were completely different from Salvadorian Jews, etc. They were thus not automatically entitled to having their own state on the basis of nation-status.

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm#s5

Part V is Stalin's view on Jews and whether they constituted a nation or not in 1913. (This was during debates between the General Jewish Labour Union of Lithuania, Poland and Russia aka the Bund, and the Bolsheviks) I'm sure you'll find it quite agreeable.

[Raj Radical]

Jews aren't a nation. They never had a unified identity. Polish Jews were completely different from Chinese Jews who were completely different from Salvadorian Jews, etc. They were thus not automatically entitled to having their own state on the basis of nation-status.

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm#s5

Part V is Stalin's view on Jews and whether they constituted a nation or not in 1913. (This was during debates between the General Jewish Labour Union of Lithuania, Poland and Russia aka the Bund, and the Bolsheviks) I'm sure you'll find it quite agreeable.

You're correct that their are various Jewish cultures, however, Salvarodan and Chinese Jews comprise a miniscule minority of Jews. Most Jews, 80% (95% before the holocaust) were Eastern European Ashkenazim, who did share a common language, religion and culture. Besides, are they less of a nation than the Palestinians? The Palestinians who have never existed as a nation state. Who before 1948 were quite hostile to the very concept of a Palestinian people and had always considered themselves merely Arabs or at best "South Syrians"? Let's hear what Zuheir Mohsen had to say: The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan

[Yehuda Stern]

Most Jews, 80% (95% before the holocaust) were Eastern European Ashkenazim, who did share a common language, religion and culture.

Actually, none of that is true.


The Palestinians who have never existed as a nation state.

So what? Many peoples emerged enslaved by imperialism. The nation state doesn't tell us if a group is a people or not, but the drive towards the setting up of an independent nation state does. You have cause and effect all mixed up here.


Who before 1948 were quite hostile to the very concept of a Palestinian people and had always considered themselves merely Arabs or at best "South Syrians"?

The Jews are, in fact, those who do not think of themselves as a nation. That is a Zionist, not a Jewish, invention. In fact, orthodox Judaism considered Zionism heretical, because it tried to demean the religious status of Judaism to a materialist standard of nationality.

The Palestinians have started considering themselves a people since at least the 1930s, if not before. The national consciousness among Palestinians is very strong. Among Israelis there is no national consciousness, and the sectarian identity is much stronger than either the religious or the national identities. Most don't even recognize the latter one.

[Raj Radical]

Actually, none of that is true.
Actually, it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi
The Jews are, in fact, those who do not think of themselves as a nation. That is a Zionist, not a Jewish, invention. In fact, orthodox Judaism considered Zionism heretical, because it tried to demean the religious status of Judaism to a materialist standard of nationality. Are you daft? The entire basis of Judaism is the idea of the Jews as a nation. Am Israel? Christianity is a personal religion, Judaism is a national religion. This idea predates Zionism, but both Zionism and Judaism are based in the concept of a Jewish nation. Prior to the holocaust, Orthodox Judaism was oppossed to the idea of a Jewish-Nation state BEFORE the Moshiach, not in general. Orthodox Jews pray every day for the Moshiach to come and rebuild the temple and resestablish a kingdom in Israel. It's the idea that Jews could create their own state before the Moshiach, and without God's blessing, that the Orthodox Jews found heretical.
The Palestinians have started considering themselves a people since at least the 1930s, if not before. The national consciousness among Palestinians is very strong. Among Israelis there is no national consciousness, and the sectarian identity is much stronger than either the religious or the national identities. Most don't even recognize the latter one.[/quote] You're going to have a hard time proving that Palestinians are less sectarian than Israelis, considering that in 2007, more Palestinians died at the hands of Palestinians than Israelis. It's a testament to the political mindset of Palestinians, that today, inter-Arab tribal warfare is more deadly to Palestinians than the IDF. Palestinians, even ones without Israeli citizenship, are safer in the Jewish State than they are in Gaza, the West Bank, or Lebanon. Just recently, Israel allowed 180 Palestinians who were deemed "Fatah activists" into Israel from Gaza. While you're right that there are sectarian divides in Israel (primarily Religious vs. Secular), they are nothing compared to the divided house that is Palestine. Palestinians hate themselves more than they hate Israel, and they're petty political divisions have betrayed them and destroyed their children's future.

[Yehuda Stern]

Actually, it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi)

No, genius, I'm referring to the fact that those Jews did not have a common language or culture, and arguably not even the same religion.


The entire basis of Judaism is the idea of the Jews as a nation... Judaism is a national religion.

That is hogwash and a Zionist myth. No Jew other than the handful of Zionists believed any of this at any point before the holocaust.


While you're right that there are sectarian divides in Israel (primarily Religious vs. Secular), they are nothing compared to the divided house that is Palestine.

Comparing those two things is completely bogus, inasmuch as the first divide is indeed sectarian while the second is political.


Palestinians hate themselves more than they hate Israel, and they're petty political divisions have betrayed them and destroyed their children's future.

The Zionist state, which you support, has taken care of that. Now it's time to take the future back.

Shouldn't this Zionist scumbag be restricted?

[Raj Radical]

That is hogwash and a Zionist myth. No Jew other than the handful of Zionists believed any of this at any point before the holocaust.
I find it shocking that a Jew would be so ignorant of his own spiritual traditions.

[Yehuda Stern]

I find it shocking that you're bold enough to claim to know more about my tradition than I do.

[RadioRaheem84]

Also, most Zionists are not leftists, let alone revolutionary leftists. http://www.revleft.com/vb/rights-judeo-bolshevism-t86302/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif


I thought that most of the first Zionists were Socialists. Look I know that the State of Israel is controversial and it's not in the right when it comes to the Palestinian conflict, but let's not revise history by saying that the Zionists were not Socialist. The Kibbutz system was founded on Zionist-Socialism. It was a healthy sense of nationalism for the Jewish people.

[Dr Mindbender]

going by a debate i had with a fash on another fora, their argument is along the lines of trotsky and co were financed by jewish bankers.

There was also another tall claim that Lenin's train back to russia from Germany was filled with 'jewish gold' to finance the bolshevik revolution.

:rolleyes:

In fact, here (http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4066.0) is the thread in question.

[Yehuda Stern]

I thought that most of the first Zionists were Socialists.

They called themselves socialists, but so does practically everyone. So do many social-democrats and Stalinists, whom I do not consider to be socialists (and I suppose most will agree with me at least on the former). The fact is that the role of Zionism was highly reactionary and pro-imperialist from the moment the movement was born. Whatever political pretensions they had are meaningless.


The Kibbutz system was founded on Zionist-Socialism. It was a healthy sense of nationalism for the Jewish people.

This paragraph is especially monstrous on your part. The kibbutzim, the chief Zionist tool for the expropriation of Palestinians, for the theft of lands, are... socialist? Are "healthy nationalism"?

[RadioRaheem84]

They called themselves socialists, but so does practically everyone. So do many social-democrats and Stalinists, whom I do not consider to be socialists (and I suppose most will agree with me at least on the former). The fact is that the role of Zionism was highly reactionary and pro-imperialist from the moment the movement was born. Whatever political pretensions they had are meaningless.They didn't just call themselves socialist. They were socialists. This wasn't another National Socialist thing, where they were socialists in name only. It doesn't make their political pretensions meaningless at all.

And what you're speaking of is mainly of the right wing factions of Zionism when I speak of specifically Socialist-Zionism.


This paragraph is especially monstrous on your part. The kibbutzim, the chief Zionist tool for the expropriation of Palestinians, for the theft of lands, are... socialist? Are "healthy nationalism"?I never said that it was perfect and the Zionist Jews at the time were known to be reactionary when they perceived a threat. The founders of kibbutz thought the Arabs would appreciate their work on the lands, but there was conflict. They wanted the Arab workers to rise against the Arab landowners but the Arabs (workers or landowners) wouldn't side with them.
I believe that the first Zionists didn't wish for imperialist expansion, but as soon as something is perceived as a threat to Zionist Jews, then it seems like that enemy is never forgiven. This is where they were in the wrong and have been in the wrong ever since.

[Yehuda Stern]

They didn't just call themselves socialist. They were socialists. This wasn't another National Socialist thing, where they were socialists in name only. It doesn't make their political pretensions meaningless at all.

Show me even one proof of that.


I never said that it was perfect

There's not perfect and there's genocide. What's with you people? "Not perfect"? Who said anything about "perfect"?


They wanted the Arab workers to rise against the Arab landowners but the Arabs (workers or landowners) wouldn't side with them.

That is pure speculation, and false at that. The Zionists wanted to take over the land and drive out the Arabs. That you're blaming the Palestinians for their own Nakba is just shocking.

[RadioRaheem84]

Show me even one proof of that.
When the waste lands are prepared for colonization, when modern technique is introduced, and when the other obstacles are removed, there will be sufficient land to accommodate both the Jews and the Arabs. Normal relations between the Jews and Arabs will and must prevail.- Ber Borochov, one of the founders of Zionnist Socialism
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Borochov_Eretz_Yisrael.html


There's not perfect and there's genocide. What's with you people? "Not perfect"? Who said anything about "perfect"?

That is pure speculation, and false at that. The Zionists wanted to take over the land and drive out the Arabs. That you're blaming the Palestinians for their own Nakba is just shockingNo. I don't argue that the Arabs are to blame. I am saying that the movement began with the intention of having Arab and Jew work together. The Arabs refused, as it was their right to do so, and then the Zionists saw them as a threat.

The faulty premise of Zionism is that it begins with and ends with Jewish people. They'll incorporate anyone that wishes to go along with them, as they wanted to do with the Arab, but refusal usually gets you on their enemies list.

But the point has always been that the students of Labour Zionism have always been Socialist. I don't know how you can argue against that. It doesn't make it good and I am not defending it, but I am not going to argue that it wasn't socialistic.

[Yehuda Stern]

Those are words. I meant - show me one proof that the Zionists tried to cooperate with the Palestinians. You may not blame the Palestinians for the nakba, but by claiming that the nakba occurred because the Palestinians did not want to cooperate with the socialists tells me only one thing about you.

[Le Drapeau Noir]

Actually, none of that is true.



So what? Many peoples emerged enslaved by imperialism. The nation state doesn't tell us if a group is a people or not, but the drive towards the setting up of an independent nation state does. You have cause and effect all mixed up here.



The Jews are, in fact, those who do not think of themselves as a nation. That is a Zionist, not a Jewish, invention. In fact, orthodox Judaism considered Zionism heretical, because it tried to demean the religious status of Judaism to a materialist standard of nationality.

The Palestinians have started considering themselves a people since at least the 1930s, if not before. The national consciousness among Palestinians is very strong. Among Israelis there is no national consciousness, and the sectarian identity is much stronger than either the religious or the national identities. Most don't even recognize the latter one.

Thank you. As a Jew, I find it offensive that my people do not constitute a "nation" in the shared cultural/ethnicity/tribal sense as much as I do when talking with rightwing blowhards who demand that Palestinians do not exist. Both arguments are pathetic attempts at diminshing both people's aspirations and shared history.

Thanks for speaking up.

[Yehuda Stern]

Well, you're welcome I guess, but I don't understand what you're thanking me for - I am arguing here that Jews are in fact not a nation, and that the old orthodoxy thought of Zionism as nothing less than the worst heresy.

[Le Drapeau Noir]

Well, you're welcome I guess, but I don't understand what you're thanking me for - I am arguing here that Jews are in fact not a nation, and that the old orthodoxy thought of Zionism as nothing less than the worst heresy.

I think I may have misunderstood you and you misunderstood me. When I say "nation," I'm not talking any sort of state sense. I'm speaking strictly as a group of people with a common identification through common religion/culture/aspirations/heritage/history and so forth.

So again, as people speak of "the Palestinians do not exist as a nation" is just as pathetic when they say that there is no common heritage among Jews.

In other words, some people want to deny the existence of the other. That's what I'm trying to get at.