Arguments against white nationalists.

[Catbus]

I live in a small rural area which is plagued by white nationalists, probably because there is a high population of Hispanics here (not that that is a bad thing, but since they're the whole "We need to lock up the borders and kill all the Mexicans" type of people they see this as a huge problem).

Anyway, being of the radical left, I often argue with them over issues such as Anarchism (being an Anarchist myself), economics, and the likes. However I have problems when they bring up arguments about race. I've tried arguing about how every human deserves human rights, but since they don't believe that it really doesn't help my side of the argument at all.



Basically, is there anyway to win an argument against a white nationalist of the topic of race? I mean, destroying them on any other topic is easy, but the most important to me is proving that all races are equal. Can I even do that?

[politics student]

I normally stick to, "You had no control which country you were born in so why are you proud?"

or "Countries are just political and geographical boarders we are all still human just as one person is of a different nationality, that does not make you better than them."

My area we have a lot of issues with anti polish nationalist hate.

[More Fire for the People]

Try a brick to the face. It'll change the way they see the world.

[Vendetta]

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2006/HillbillyOveralls.jpg

There you go.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Basically, is there anyway to win an argument against a white nationalist of the topic of race? I mean, destroying them on any other topic is easy, but the most important to me is proving that all races are equal. Can I even do that?
You can statistically prove that all races are equal - which is to say, you can prove that every human merit or flaw you can imagine is present in every race in more or less the same proportion.

But the best line of argument I found is the following:

You: "So, what's wrong with Mexicans?"
WN: "They do X." (for example, "they steal our jobs", or whatever; it doesn't matter what X is)
You: "So if an American did X, would it be ok?" (e.g. "So if an American took your job instead of a Mexican, would that make it all ok for you?")
WN: "Um, well, not really..."
You: "So you're not really opposed to Mexicans, you're opposed to people doing X. What does it matter which country they are from?"

[trivas7]

No, you can't expect to win arguments with irrational people. The truth is that race is a sociological construct, not a biological one.

[ships-cat]

I live in a small rural area which is plagued by white nationalists, probably because there is a high population of Hispanics here

Hee hee... interesting perspective there.. the "white nationalists" are a "plague", but the Hispanics are just.... part of the scenery.

Sorry to pick you up on your use of langauge... but... in your estimate.. how many "white nationalists" exist in your area.. and how many Mexican immigrants ?

And then... define a "plague".


I live in a small rural area which is plagued by
Basically, is there anyway to win an argument against a white nationalist of the topic of race? I mean, destroying them on any other topic is easy, but the most important to me is proving that all races are equal. Can I even do that?

I would imagine there are LOTS of tactical options... but first off... why do you wan't to "destroy" their arguments ? Surely "disprove" would be sufficient ?


Forgive me Catbus... but... I suspect you are ... not entirely strong in your position ? (within your own mind ? ) You ask for advice on "destroying" an opposing point of view. Isn't that somewhat Fascist ?

What do YOU believe in ? Once you answer THAT, then the arguments in the forums will flow through your fingertips.

Meow Purr :)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Hee hee... interesting perspective there.. the "white nationalists" are a "plague", but the Hispanics are just.... part of the scenery.

Yes he aint saying white people are a plauge but white nationlists who are a bunch of ****s to be frank,




I would imagine there are LOTS of tactical options... but first off... why do you wan't to "destroy" their arguments ? Surely "disprove" would be sufficient ?

Because destroying them means no one will think of them as a good idea and wont be used.



You ask for advice on "destroying" an opposing point of view. Isn't that somewhat Fascist ?

No grow the fuck up.

[freakazoid]

Try a brick to the face. It'll change the way they see the world.

ROFL :laugh: :thumbup:

[Gold Against The Soul]

Basically, is there anyway to win an argument against a white nationalist of the topic of race? I mean, destroying them on any other topic is easy, but the most important to me is proving that all races are equal. Can I even do that?

No, you'll never do that, at least in terms of science. Science can't prove or disprove race as biological reality because 'race' isn't a scientific category. To quote Loring Brace: "There is no organising principle by which you could put five billion people into so few categories in a way that would tell you anything meaningful".

The last bit is important because everyone accepts there are genetic differences between populations. Most people can tell the difference between the major racial groups and some go further and think, for example, that they can tell the difference between an Englishman and Italian. However, that is meaningless on its own. The question is: what are the significant of these differences? If anything from the compest heap in my garden to Mount Everest is described as a 'hill' then it is not unreasonable to suggest that the category 'hill' doesn't tell us much useful. Much the same is true of 'race'.

All this said, White Nationalists tend to cling to the biological reality of race and with the recent human genome project, it is now easier than ever to dismantle all there often lame and outdated arguments.

Point out to them that 85% of human genetic variation occurs among individuals within local populations: http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/ << this is generally useful article from one of the men who discovered this.

Point out that this means that just the Masai tribe in East Africa contains nearly *all* genetic human variation that exists in the world today. That'll get them wound up! :laugh:

Or alternativley, follow the Trostky maxim and acquaint heads with the pavement!

[Decolonize The Left]

Both Passmore and KH have offered excellent options for debate/discussion.

The first thing you must remember is that white nationalist positions are entirely rooted in prejudice and ignorance. Therefore aggressive behavior on your part will trigger emotional responses and will bring your argument and points nowhere.

You must attempt to address the situation from the simplest perspective possible. In this regard, Passmore's arguments are quite useful. If they are still engaged after this (most likely this will only sow some doubt in their minds), I would use KH's arguments to further your point. This will require more mental labor on all parts, but if they made it this far without retreating from discussion it will be effective.

After having made it this far, I wouldn't push it further. Let the arguments sit for as long as necessary for white nationalists will not drop prejudices easily - the doubt must dismantle deep-rooted feelings. If they approach you again after a primary discussion, re-iterate your points in a simple and straightforward fashion.

Always remember: you are approaching the situation from a materialist perspective, you do not need to get emotionally involved (although it's hard at times).

- August

[Gold Against The Soul]

Oh and one further point... why if we're meant to naturally 'prefer our own', as so many White Nationalists claim, is miscenegation continuing to increase at a rapid rate? Ironically the White Nationalists themselves might be playing their part in this. There is an absolutely legendary thread on Stormfront which is called something like 'why don't girls go for white nationalists?' where they all bemoan, along with a few women, that the opposite sex wants nothing to do with them! Which is priceless when you think they consider themselves part of the 'master race'. LOL!

[F9]

DONT TRY TO DEBATE WITH MORONS,THEY WILL THROW YOU AT THEIR LEVEL AND THEY WILL WIN YOU DUE TO THEIR EXPERIENCE.

Fuserg9:star:

[Catbus]

Hee hee... interesting perspective there.. the "white nationalists" are a "plague", but the Hispanics are just.... part of the scenery.

I don't understand what you mean about Hispanics being part of the scenery, they aren't harming anyone and are contributing to society just as much as the rest of us, so I don't see why a point needs to be made about them. The nationalists however are inciting violence, brainwashing kids as young as 5th graders (9-10), and creating an air of uneasiness for anyone that wasn't born white. That to me is a plague.


And then define plague

As I just described, the racial intolerance that they're creating, as with the violence, to me, is a plague.



I would imagine there are LOTS of tactical options... but first off... why do you wan't to "destroy" their arguments ? Surely "disprove" would be sufficient ?

Ok, destroy might not have been the right word, but I was hoping it would be inferred that I wanted to disprove them.


Forgive me Catbus... but... I suspect you are ... not entirely strong in your position ? (within your own mind ? )

I think I'm pretty fucking sure of what my position on this is.



Try a brick to the face. It'll change the way they see the world.


That would be a viable option, if I wasn't 5'5" and 108 pounds.

I'm pretty shrimpy.

[Unregistered]

most racists i know won't just buy the perfectly logical line of argumentation of a Kwisatz Haderach. They enjoy being better or superior. It is a dogma to a nationalist or a racist that he belongs to the better group. it is a psychological issue, you can't come to him with enlightenment and logics, he'll just get furious or will invent some half-assed adhoc arguments to prove how <<they>>'re the vermin of the earth and <<we>>'re god's own representative.
biggotry is just a character trait prominent amongst the uneducated and thus especially amongst the rurals. adorno, having fled germany, studied biggotry in the american south and proposed to fight to biggots with their own weapons, to create an air of intolerance towards intolerance and, as far as I know, his followers were quite successful at doing that in the west. no politician can afford being associated with racists. write him an open letter. he doesn't react? contact the regional press. they don't react? contact someone bigger.
afaik you don't have antifa in america but you must have other anti-racist organisations. try to find them and enquire about strategies you could use. here they often do demonstrations, they expose racists and distribute leaflets.

[Plagueround]

Please don't bump such old posts, dear guest. Thread closed. Go register. ;)