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Liberty Lover
24th February 2003, 06:53
French Jokes

Letterman: "France wants more evidence...The last time France wanted more evidence, it rolled right through France with a German flag."

Dennis Miller: "The only way the French are going in is if we tell them we found truffles in Iraq."

Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., warmed up a crowd of GOP leaders in Missouri last week by saying, "Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris?... It's not known, it's never been tried."

And this: "Somebody was telling me about the French Army rifle that was being advertised on eBay the other day -- the description was, `Never shot. Dropped once.'"

And this, too: "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion."

Old Friend
24th February 2003, 07:31
Keep up the good work, Liberty Lover.

Your friend,

Stormin Norman

Eastside Revolt
24th February 2003, 08:09
ha ha ha

Uhuru na Umoja
24th February 2003, 11:21
Have you completely forgotten about this guy called Napoleon? True he lost, but for years he won against the combined forces of Britain, Prussia, Russia, etc. His Old Guard were by far the best troops in Europe, indeed the whole world. Recent French military exploits may not have been so great, but they have a more successful history of militarism than many Euopean nations (and still they didn't to bad that the Marne or Verdun).

Invader Zim
24th February 2003, 12:16
Quote: from Uhuru na Umoja on 11:21 am on Feb. 24, 2003
Have you completely forgotten about this guy called Napoleon? True he lost, but for years he won against the combined forces of Britain, Prussia, Russia, etc. His Old Guard were by far the best troops in Europe, indeed the whole world. Recent French military exploits may not have been so great, but they have a more successful history of militarism than many Euopean nations (and still they didn't to bad that the Marne or Verdun).

Napoleon did not hold off the British they were under constant retreat except for the British Corruna retreat. Before Wellington arived then it was on to Paris.

Lets look at the French constant retreat.

Talavera
Salamanca
Ciudad Rodrigo
Badajoz
Vitoria
San Sebastian
Valencia
Tolouse
Rolica
Oporto
Bussaco
Fuentes de Onoro
Quatre Bras

And last but definately not least

Waterloo



(Edited by AK47 at 12:17 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)

Fabi
24th February 2003, 12:39
"Who is "Ungrateful"?
America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

by Paul Street; February 20, 2003

“We Saved Their Butts”

It is difficult to imagine the bitter irony with which many French people must be receiving the American charge of “ingratitude.” For the last two weeks at least, leading United States Congressmen, editorialists and others have been bashing the French for their supposed failure to support international “law and order” by joining America’s reckless and dangerous campaign to needlessly massacre Iraqis. There is even talk of an American boycott of French goods. Much of the criticism has focused on the charge that France is “ungrateful” for America’s heroic efforts to save them during “the Good War” – the great Allied struggle against German and Japanese fascism between 1941 and 1945.

Listen, for example, to Fred Barnes, executive director of the reactionary Weekly Standard. Last Thursday, Barnes expressed his outrage that France would “actively try to undermine President Bush” on Iraq “after all we’ve done for them” – including “saving their butts” in World War II.

Behold the outraged former New York City Mayor Ed Koch. “I encourage everybody in America: do not go to France,” Koch said last week. “These people were Nazi [collaborators] in large part. We saved them – and they turned on us.” “Most of us,” chimed in “war” enthusiast Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-Queens), “believe [the French] would all be speaking German if it were not for US military intervention.”

Three weeks ago, US Senator John Kyl noted that America “liberated” France from “Hitler’s grip” in a statement denouncing “old Europe’s” (France and Germany’s) supposedly irrelevant opposition to American “war” (massacre) plans in the Middle East.

Deleting America’s Fascist Accommodation and Emulation

History holds a less than exalted position in the nation that Michael Eric Dyson once aptly called “The United States of Amnesia.” Still, it is interesting to note how consistently elite would be-architects of American opinion feel driven to construct fundamentally, albeit bad, historical arguments on behalf of their various projects at home and abroad.

A funny thing forgotten by practitioners of the new American sport of French-bashing is that US policymakers helped enable the rise of European fascism that culminated in Hitler’s march of terror. As is apparent from the relevant historical literature, the US watched with approval as Fascist darkness set over Europe during the inter-war years. American policymakers saw Italian, Spanish, German and other strains of the European fascist disease as a welcome counter to the Soviet threat – essentially the demonstration Russia made of the possibilities for modernization (industrialization, urbanization, and nation- building) outside the capitalist world system – and anti-capitalist social democracy within Western European states.

In 1937, the US State Department’s European Division argued that European fascism was compatible with America’s economic interests. This key diplomatic agency reported that fascism’s rise was a natural response of “the rich and middle classes” to the threat posed by “dissatisfied masses,” who, with the “the example of the Russian Revolution before them,” might “swing to the left.” Fascism, the State Department argued, “must succeed or the masses, this time reinforced by the disillusioned middle class, will again turn to the left.” The French Popular Front government of the middle 1930s was an example of the popular left threat that made fascism acceptable to American officials before Hitler really launched his drive for a New World Order. It is true that fascism became an avowed US enemy during WWII. This did not occur, however, until fascism, holding power in two leading imperialist states, directly attacked American interests. American policymakers intervened against fascism on the basis of perceived national self-interest, not out of any particular concern for the human rights of the French or, for that matter, European Jews or anyone else. After the war, it is worth noting, America’s accommodation of European and Asian fascism in the inter-war period became the model for US Third World policy. In the name of resisting supposedly expansionist Soviet influence and anti-capitalism, the US sponsored, funded, equipped, and provided political cover for numerous Third World fascist regimes. In doing so, it protected and enlisted numerous Nazi War criminals (e.g. Klaus Barbie) perceived to have special skills in anti-leftist counter-insurgency. And today, as it prepares a “pre-emptive” invasion of a weak state to advance an American-dominated New World Order, the US quite reasonably strikes many European and other world citizens as the closest thing in recent historical memory to the Hitler’s Third Reich.

Who is Ungrateful?

The American right wants to view France’s position on US Iraq policy as a French referendum on its historical debts to other nations. Fine – perhaps, then, we should see France’s resistance to the Bush War Party as an expression of its deep gratitude to Russia, which opposes Bush’s Iraq campaign and which lost 25 million lives in the struggle against fascism-Nazism. No nation did more than Russia to stop the Nazis. If their charges of French ingratitude are to be taken seriously, America’s warmongers believe that a decent nation expresses proper gratefulness for a survival-enabling historical gift from another nation by embracing the savior nation’s current policy agenda, whatever the widespread opposition of the saved state’s population. By this standard, however, America ought to be taking its policy cues from France. After all, it is incontrovertible historical fact that French military assistance was crucial to America’s victory in its War of Independence against the British Empire between 1776 and 1783. Perhaps the French should launch a public relations counter campaign, accusing American policymakers of being ungrateful for the heroic sacrifices made by France to enable the very birth of the United States. The French do feel gratitude for the role Americans played in expelling the Nazis. When they see George W. Bush sneering from their television screens about the concocted threat posed by Iraq, however, they do not flash back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the heroic struggle against world fascism. They see a dangerous new potential world dictator, one who manufactures exaggerated foreign threats to justify a Nazi-like drive for unchallenged world power.

What is the moral calculus whereby one nation’s historical debt to a stronger nation’s past opposition to a shared monstrous enemy mandates the weaker state’s supine subservience to the stronger state’s current global agenda – even when that agenda puts the weaker state at significant risk?

Better Analogies

The charge of ingratitude was once leveled against America’s Founding Fathers, in the aftermath of what American history texts call “The French-Indian War.” The accusation came from King George’s British Empire, aghast at the North American colonists’ reluctance to pay the costs of supposed imperial protection. The ensuing struggle sparked by British efforts to enforce proper imperial subordination culminated in the American Revolution, successfully completed with crucial assistance from France – something for which the American people should be eternally grateful.

Here, perhaps, we find a somewhat more useful historical analogy than WWII to grasp “ungrateful” France’s reluctance to jump on board the imperial campaign of history’s new and more dangerous Mad King George.

Among the many reasons for people to know their history, few are as compelling as the power such knowledge gives them to critically scrutinize misleading historical statements made by policymakers to advance terrible agendas. The hysterical French-bashing historical propaganda recently spewed out by America’s modern imperialists and their chauvinistic cheerleaders is an excellent example.

Paul Street ([email protected] ) is a Lecturer on urban class and race relations at Loyola University in Chicago, Illinois.
"

source: http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article....93&sectionID=15 (http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3093&sectionID=15)

LOIC
24th February 2003, 15:07
A great post from liberty lover.

It shows how american rednecks are frustrated because they thought that french were their dog.

It also shows the incapacity from the u$ politicians and from the u$ media to give to the world one good reason to attack iraq. So they can only insult and mock people who disagree with them.

What a childish and pathetic attitude!

(Edited by LOIC at 3:17 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)

Invader Zim
24th February 2003, 15:45
Quote: from Uhuru na Umoja on 11:21 am on Feb. 24, 2003
Have you completely forgotten about this guy called Napoleon? True he lost, but for years he won against the combined forces of Britain, Prussia, Russia, etc. His Old Guard were by far the best troops in Europe, indeed the whole world. Recent French military exploits may not have been so great, but they have a more successful history of militarism than many Euopean nations (and still they didn't to bad that the Marne or Verdun).


Ohh yes and the Old Gaurd were good but they got beeten by standard red coats on the one and only time they have faught. They were also nothing compared the the British Green Jackets or the KGL.

Uhuru na Umoja
24th February 2003, 15:47
Quote: from AK47 on 12:16 pm on Feb. 24, 2003

Quote: from Uhuru na Umoja on 11:21 am on Feb. 24, 2003
Have you completely forgotten about this guy called Napoleon? True he lost, but for years he won against the combined forces of Britain, Prussia, Russia, etc. His Old Guard were by far the best troops in Europe, indeed the whole world. Recent French military exploits may not have been so great, but they have a more successful history of militarism than many Euopean nations (and still they didn't to bad that the Marne or Verdun).

Napoleon did not hold off the British they were under constant retreat except for the British Corruna retreat. Before Wellington arived then it was on to Paris.

Lets look at the French constant retreat.

Talavera
Salamanca
Ciudad Rodrigo
Badajoz
Vitoria
San Sebastian
Valencia
Tolouse
Rolica
Oporto
Bussaco
Fuentes de Onoro
Quatre Bras

And last but definately not least

Waterloo



(Edited by AK47 at 12:17 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)


Sorry... my computer is fucked up right now and won't let me post properly; however, I will reply later...

(Edited by Uhuru na Umoja at 3:51 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)

Uhuru na Umoja
24th February 2003, 17:12
Ok. Now AK47, I disagree with a number of your statements. Firstly, you focus entirely on the Peninsular War, which was never Napoleon's focus (notice I mentioned Napoleon and not Soult, Joseph and other generals involved in Spain).

Secondly, not only did the British retreat to Corunna, but I know a certain British general who spent much of the war hiding behind the lines of Torres Vedras... some advance that was. You also mention Busaca as an advance. Sure it was a victory, but Welsley was retreating before the battle, then following withdrew to the lines of Torres Vedras... as far as I am concerned they French had him perfectly held up fo the time being (albeit at a high cost).

Now to place things into context... Look to Napoleon's European advances:

Marengo
Austeriltz
Jena
Eylau
Borodino
... the list goes on (if you do not believe me I would happily list five to ten more victories, but cannot be bothered right now).

As for Quatre Bras... the French advanced to the site of battle, then following the battle advanced to Waterloo. How, may I ask, was this a retreat?

Also look at the Low Countries campaign. The British were very effectively contained there.

Basically, my point is Napoleon was a great general who almost always had the initiative. His Old Guard were the finest troops in Europe. And yes he did successfully contain the British up until 1812 (before that Welsley made very few significant advances in spain).

Guardia Bolivariano
24th February 2003, 20:07
The real funny thing here is that Liberty Lover hides behind jokes so we can forget his ignorance.:biggrin:

Pete
24th February 2003, 20:11
I think the jokes, as well as his posts dealing with cuba, prove his ignorance.

Liberty Lover
25th February 2003, 06:36
"I think the jokes, as well as his posts dealing with cuba, prove his ignorance."

This coming from someone who thinks Stalin was a good bloke, cubans can vote in multi-party elections and all people should be forced to live by the ramblings of a 19th century unemployed German.

Kapitan Andrey
25th February 2003, 07:27
Liberty Lover...DAMN-STUPID yankee!!!

"Shut your mouth!!!"

Uhuru na Umoja...No-no!!! Napoleon didn't won in Borodino! Nobody won that battle!!! There were GREAT casualties by both sides! Our defence lines was almost invincible, but our army got back(NOT RETREAT) because of great number of casualties!!!

Old Friend
25th February 2003, 07:29
Are you French, Kapitan? If so, you should go back into the archives, and see what I had to say about the group of yellow belly cowards known as the French.

Fabi
25th February 2003, 09:35
Quote: from Fabi on 12:39 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
"Who is "Ungrateful"?
America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

by Paul Street; February 20, 2003

“We Saved Their Butts”

It is difficult to imagine the bitter irony with which many French people must be receiving the American charge of “ingratitude.” For the last two weeks at least, leading United States Congressmen, editorialists and others have been bashing the French for their supposed failure to support international “law and order” by joining America’s reckless and dangerous campaign to needlessly massacre Iraqis. There is even talk of an American boycott of French goods. Much of the criticism has focused on the charge that France is “ungrateful” for America’s heroic efforts to save them during “the Good War” – the great Allied struggle against German and Japanese fascism between 1941 and 1945.

Listen, for example, to Fred Barnes, executive director of the reactionary Weekly Standard. Last Thursday, Barnes expressed his outrage that France would “actively try to undermine President Bush” on Iraq “after all we’ve done for them” – including “saving their butts” in World War II.

Behold the outraged former New York City Mayor Ed Koch. “I encourage everybody in America: do not go to France,” Koch said last week. “These people were Nazi [collaborators] in large part. We saved them – and they turned on us.” “Most of us,” chimed in “war” enthusiast Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-Queens), “believe [the French] would all be speaking German if it were not for US military intervention.”

Three weeks ago, US Senator John Kyl noted that America “liberated” France from “Hitler’s grip” in a statement denouncing “old Europe’s” (France and Germany’s) supposedly irrelevant opposition to American “war” (massacre) plans in the Middle East.

Deleting America’s Fascist Accommodation and Emulation

History holds a less than exalted position in the nation that Michael Eric Dyson once aptly called “The United States of Amnesia.” Still, it is interesting to note how consistently elite would be-architects of American opinion feel driven to construct fundamentally, albeit bad, historical arguments on behalf of their various projects at home and abroad.

A funny thing forgotten by practitioners of the new American sport of French-bashing is that US policymakers helped enable the rise of European fascism that culminated in Hitler’s march of terror. As is apparent from the relevant historical literature, the US watched with approval as Fascist darkness set over Europe during the inter-war years. American policymakers saw Italian, Spanish, German and other strains of the European fascist disease as a welcome counter to the Soviet threat – essentially the demonstration Russia made of the possibilities for modernization (industrialization, urbanization, and nation- building) outside the capitalist world system – and anti-capitalist social democracy within Western European states.

In 1937, the US State Department’s European Division argued that European fascism was compatible with America’s economic interests. This key diplomatic agency reported that fascism’s rise was a natural response of “the rich and middle classes” to the threat posed by “dissatisfied masses,” who, with the “the example of the Russian Revolution before them,” might “swing to the left.” Fascism, the State Department argued, “must succeed or the masses, this time reinforced by the disillusioned middle class, will again turn to the left.” The French Popular Front government of the middle 1930s was an example of the popular left threat that made fascism acceptable to American officials before Hitler really launched his drive for a New World Order. It is true that fascism became an avowed US enemy during WWII. This did not occur, however, until fascism, holding power in two leading imperialist states, directly attacked American interests. American policymakers intervened against fascism on the basis of perceived national self-interest, not out of any particular concern for the human rights of the French or, for that matter, European Jews or anyone else. After the war, it is worth noting, America’s accommodation of European and Asian fascism in the inter-war period became the model for US Third World policy. In the name of resisting supposedly expansionist Soviet influence and anti-capitalism, the US sponsored, funded, equipped, and provided political cover for numerous Third World fascist regimes. In doing so, it protected and enlisted numerous Nazi War criminals (e.g. Klaus Barbie) perceived to have special skills in anti-leftist counter-insurgency. And today, as it prepares a “pre-emptive” invasion of a weak state to advance an American-dominated New World Order, the US quite reasonably strikes many European and other world citizens as the closest thing in recent historical memory to the Hitler’s Third Reich.

Who is Ungrateful?

The American right wants to view France’s position on US Iraq policy as a French referendum on its historical debts to other nations. Fine – perhaps, then, we should see France’s resistance to the Bush War Party as an expression of its deep gratitude to Russia, which opposes Bush’s Iraq campaign and which lost 25 million lives in the struggle against fascism-Nazism. No nation did more than Russia to stop the Nazis. If their charges of French ingratitude are to be taken seriously, America’s warmongers believe that a decent nation expresses proper gratefulness for a survival-enabling historical gift from another nation by embracing the savior nation’s current policy agenda, whatever the widespread opposition of the saved state’s population. By this standard, however, America ought to be taking its policy cues from France. After all, it is incontrovertible historical fact that French military assistance was crucial to America’s victory in its War of Independence against the British Empire between 1776 and 1783. Perhaps the French should launch a public relations counter campaign, accusing American policymakers of being ungrateful for the heroic sacrifices made by France to enable the very birth of the United States. The French do feel gratitude for the role Americans played in expelling the Nazis. When they see George W. Bush sneering from their television screens about the concocted threat posed by Iraq, however, they do not flash back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the heroic struggle against world fascism. They see a dangerous new potential world dictator, one who manufactures exaggerated foreign threats to justify a Nazi-like drive for unchallenged world power.

What is the moral calculus whereby one nation’s historical debt to a stronger nation’s past opposition to a shared monstrous enemy mandates the weaker state’s supine subservience to the stronger state’s current global agenda – even when that agenda puts the weaker state at significant risk?

Better Analogies

The charge of ingratitude was once leveled against America’s Founding Fathers, in the aftermath of what American history texts call “The French-Indian War.” The accusation came from King George’s British Empire, aghast at the North American colonists’ reluctance to pay the costs of supposed imperial protection. The ensuing struggle sparked by British efforts to enforce proper imperial subordination culminated in the American Revolution, successfully completed with crucial assistance from France – something for which the American people should be eternally grateful.

Here, perhaps, we find a somewhat more useful historical analogy than WWII to grasp “ungrateful” France’s reluctance to jump on board the imperial campaign of history’s new and more dangerous Mad King George.

Among the many reasons for people to know their history, few are as compelling as the power such knowledge gives them to critically scrutinize misleading historical statements made by policymakers to advance terrible agendas. The hysterical French-bashing historical propaganda recently spewed out by America’s modern imperialists and their chauvinistic cheerleaders is an excellent example.

Paul Street ([email protected] ) is a Lecturer on urban class and race relations at Loyola University in Chicago, Illinois.
"

source: http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article....93&sectionID=15 (http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3093&sectionID=15)

Aleksander Nordby
25th February 2003, 10:05
The french dident need help from usa, becuse the SOVIET were on there way.

Liberty Lover
25th February 2003, 10:08
"The french dident need help from usa, becuse the SOVIET were on there way."

I hardly think the French would have wanted to become a part of the USSR.

Aleksander Nordby
25th February 2003, 10:15
yes they would

Liberty Lover
25th February 2003, 10:20
"yes they would"

LOL. good argument.

Old Friend
25th February 2003, 10:21
Judging by their current level of communist tendencies, I would have to side with Norby here. They welcome the idea of riches to rags.

Liberty Lover
25th February 2003, 10:23
Good point

Aleksander Nordby
25th February 2003, 10:26
My last name is not norby is it nordby

Old Friend
25th February 2003, 10:30
Pardon me. I don't always time that great during the wee hours of the morning.

Invader Zim
25th February 2003, 15:37
Quote: from Uhuru na Umoja on 5:12 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
Ok. Now AK47, I disagree with a number of your statements. Firstly, you focus entirely on the Peninsular War, which was never Napoleon's focus (notice I mentioned Napoleon and not Soult, Joseph and other generals involved in Spain).

Secondly, not only did the British retreat to Corunna, but I know a certain British general who spent much of the war hiding behind the lines of Torres Vedras... some advance that was. You also mention Busaca as an advance. Sure it was a victory, but Welsley was retreating before the battle, then following withdrew to the lines of Torres Vedras... as far as I am concerned they French had him perfectly held up fo the time being (albeit at a high cost).

Now to place things into context... Look to Napoleon's European advances:

Marengo
Austeriltz
Jena
Eylau
Borodino
... the list goes on (if you do not believe me I would happily list five to ten more victories, but cannot be bothered right now).

As for Quatre Bras... the French advanced to the site of battle, then following the battle advanced to Waterloo. How, may I ask, was this a retreat?

Also look at the Low Countries campaign. The British were very effectively contained there.

Basically, my point is Napoleon was a great general who almost always had the initiative. His Old Guard were the finest troops in Europe. And yes he did successfully contain the British up until 1812 (before that Welsley made very few significant advances in spain).


Yes fine point but you said that he held off the combined attack of Britain, Prussia, Russia ect.

He did not hold off britain at all. They were at war for years got beaten in India, Africa, the ocean and then portugal and spain. Except a few small problems at the beggining.

Again the Old Guard were not the best they got beaten, by loads of different troops, Bluchers prussians, Wellingtons redcoats and loads of others.

Pete
25th February 2003, 15:51
Liberty Lover. Open your mind.

"This coming from someone who thinks Stalin was a good bloke, cubans can vote in multi-party elections and all people should be forced to live by the ramblings of a 19th century unemployed German. "

1. I have never supported Stalin once on this board. EVER. The closest I have came to that is supporting the rights of Stalinists and stating how that any Russian could get thier employer or local equivalent of MP out of a job if they proved to be corrupt or oppressing them.

2. Cuba. We ahve presented you so much information on Cuba saying that they do not vote by party but by person. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR PARTIES TO NOMINATE CANDIDATES. But their are other political parties. Larissa mentioned one. They recieve about 1% of the vote because Cubans are not as stupid as you want them to be. They suffered under neo colonialism and are prospering (no in the capitalist sense) under socialism. Unlike in America where only the Wealthy can run (in reality this is true, look how much they pour into advertising) the man who cleans out houses has just as good of a chance then the man who make sure the cities finances are in order.

3. I have never said I was a Marxist. If you, in your wanders in the areas barred to you, went into Theory aobut a week ago you would have seen that I do not exactly understand what the term Marxism represents, and therefore cannot be a Marxist! I had all my ideals before I read anything by Marx, the Communist Manifesto only assured me that others thought the same way. Everything else I came to as independantly as any one can come to ideas!

Fuck you liberty lover. Read what we write and you would not make such ignorant statements. AND TO ALL MY COMRADES LIBERTY LOVER IS AUSTRALIAN NOT AMERICAN!

Uhuru na Umoja
25th February 2003, 18:58
I'm glad we are on at least SOME agreement AK47. Nonetheless I still think the Old Guard were second to none in Europe at the time. Just being the best doesn't mean you never lose. At Waterloo by the time they were deployed the battle was already lost. In many other battles they carried the day.

Firstly, the Prussian troops were definitely not a good as the Old Guard. Second, yes you could argue the the top units of Wellington were the equal of the Old Guard; however, I think the superior experience and great loyalty of the guard makes them slightly better than the red coats.

Now, about Britain. Yes in remote regions the French were defeated, but I still think they deserve respect for sustaining a long war against the combined might of Europe's three other great powers. France was the premier single power/nation in Europe from 1800 to 1815.

Also I do not think that full credit in Spain should go to Welsley. He did his job well, but the Spanish resistance was what claimed most French lives and prevent the French armies from maintaining effective chains of command and supply.

Invader Zim
25th February 2003, 20:22
True but that would not have driven the French out for many more years.

Liberty Lover
26th February 2003, 06:42
"1. I have never supported Stalin once on this board. EVER."

Then how do you explain statements like this?

"Stalin was loved by his people. Under the Czars they starved and where oppressed. Under Stalin they had freedoms and ate. We are all fed the bullshit that America and the west had agaisnt the USSR."

"2. Cuba."

Iv'e already said enough about this. All you do is argue with the facts.

"3. I have never said I was a Marxist. If you, in your wanders in the areas barred to you, went into Theory aobut a week ago you would have seen that I do not exactly understand what the term Marxism represents, and therefore cannot be a Marxist! I had all my ideals before I read anything by Marx, the Communist Manifesto only assured me that others thought the same way. Everything else I came to as independantly as any one can come to ideas!"

So you admitt your ignorance.

Xvall
26th February 2003, 19:06
The french are quite brave in my opinion; wouldn't you think? Sure, they may not want to go to war with Iraq, but at least they have the courage to stand up to the Bush Administration; a lot more than I can say for the democrats.