The Restriction on Authoritarians - Mild plebiscite

[thursday night]

I am making a thread here because I am quite interested to see what the general feeling is towards the restriction on authoritarian socialists (Marxist-Leninists) to this forum only. Namely, there really are only three of us: myself, Cassius Clay and Mazdak. We post quite frequently about regarding many topics, not just the terribly dreaded ‘Stalin vs. Trotsky’ discussion. Basically, I would the general populace of these forums to tell me what you think of my banning/restriction and my two comrades.

Before you give your opinion, please keep a few things in mind. First of all, if you skim through these forums you will not find many threads dedicated to the great menace known as the ‘Stalin vs. Trotsky’ threads. Sure, you will find some but they hardly make the majority of the threads. You would think that the terrible ‘Stalinists,’ being stuck into one forum only, would post constant spam on the ‘Stalin vs. Trotsky’ discussion though we have not.

Also, I can tell you from a personal level that there have been many threads I have seen in other forums (mostly ‘Politics,’ ‘History’ and ‘Theory’) that I would have enjoyed commenting in but I have, of course, been unable to. None of these threads were about the most ungodly ‘Stalin vs. Trotsky’ debate. But nevertheless I was disallowed from posting.

So, comments and your opinions from the general posting audience would be appreciated. It should prove interesting. :)

[Guest1]

Authoritarianism, in its worst forms, is usually not brought about by a conscious decision by the majority to persecute. They usually think they must take this action to preserve something. And this eventual downfall of thoughtful debate is not just on a societal scale, you must live what you preach because socialism in any form requires changing your attitude on life. Interpret that as you will.

[thursday night]

Interesting and quite a thought provoking post, Che y Marijuana.

[Guest1]

I'm not an authoritarian, but I believe healthy debate is the only way to reach our goals. We need to learn. And I respect that you have something to teach me, even if I don't agree with your vision of a future society. As long as neither of our visions exists yet, we need to learn from each other. You learn nothing from talking to people that completely agree with you. You see no fault in your vision. I don't want to be that, another sheep.

Isn't that what we're fighting against? All of us?

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 11:19 pm on Feb. 23, 2003)

[RedComrade]

Although im am very much oposed to Joseph Stalin (but not necessarily authoritarianism) I am very much against the restrictions on fellow socialists. I agree with the previous poster on this, an environment filled exclusively with like minded individuals quickly turns boring. When the Stalinists were banned I was active in speaking out against it even if i dont get along with all of them. I eventually sided with the opposing viewpoints section idea as a compromise but would very much like to see the authoritarians freed and allowed to move about as they like. If a Stalinist constanly finds it necessary to provoke others and thats all he posts about as well as spamming flaming etc. i feel they should be delt with but those people are few and can be handled on a case to case basis. The thing I am most disturbed by in the sterile one ideology setting is the sense of political correctness, in a way it limits free speech because people conform there views to fit the one ideology standards (ex: one may side with the whole on most things but feels differently on Stalins rule but shuts up so as to avoid being banned or restricted). From what I have observed of many of the Stalinists you all seem to be very intelligent and on some things educated socialists and i feel you have much to bring to many sections of the forum. If a trotsky stalin war did erupt the mods always have the power to lock the topic. In closing I would very much like to see the restrictions on Stalinists lifted as long as they dont spam or flame, the only thing that ever really pissed me off was when i have observed Stalinists talking about how they are "the only true communists" i hate that elitist bullshit, its so much like the 6th grade kids arguing over whose "a true punk" other than that your guyses disagreeing with me on Joseph Stalin is not a problem. Anyway i'd definately like to see the restrictions on you guys lifted.

[Mazdak]

Redcomrade, dont you see the reason for Stalinist behavior being such IS A DIRECT REACTION to the way we are dealt with? You treat us like shit and cage us with the capitalists. And when it comes to stalin threads, the liberals are as much to blame as we are. Once again i cite the example of making a sticky thread in history about the "crimes of stalin." Now come on, when you make this, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT???!?!?!?!?!?

Anyhow, we have complained already dozens of times and its obvious the quality of this place has gone to shit and will continue to decay as more and more groups are caged or banned.

That's my 2 cents.

[Xvall]

I do not agree with caging 'authoritarians'; especially since I don't see, for example, thursday in the way that I am used to seeing 'authoritarians'. He didn't seem authoritarian at all, actually.

[Saint-Just]

The 'Stalinists', in the most basic way, teach that socialism will only be created authoritavely, because power is legitimised authority, and the authority of socialism is socialism in power. Without socialism in power, socialism will never have power, and, of course, thus, anything without power cannot be created.

Stalinists do not advocate death or destuction to all people's, only to a specific class and system, those such things to the bourgeosie class and capitalist system. They fight violence from one class with violence to another, destroying one class; thus class war theory.

Of course the authoritarians disagree with the moderate, liberal left wingers.

'i have observed Stalinists talking about how they are "the only true communists" i hate that elitist bullshit'

The 'Stalinists' only assert that Marx created the term and concept of 'communist' and therefore only one who coheres to Marx is a 'communist'. I can guarantee with my life that any of the authoritarians and including I can idisputedly guarentee that Marx created the concept of 'communist' and furthermore that his concept of communism was the precise one that the Marxist-Leninists assert. Simply from Marx works..... dictatorship of the prolertariat.... yes.... class struggle.... yes.....
In addition I and all 'Stalinists' can profoundly exert masses of proof that class struggle exist and has always existed and will always until the suppression of class antogonists.


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 12:12 am on Feb. 25, 2003)

[RedComrade]

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:59 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
Redcomrade, dont you see the reason for Stalinist behavior being such IS A DIRECT REACTION to the way we are dealt with? You treat us like shit and cage us with the capitalists. And when it comes to stalin threads, the liberals are as much to blame as we are. Once again i cite the example of making a sticky thread in history about the "crimes of stalin." Now come on, when you make this, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT???!?!?!?!?!?

Anyhow, we have complained already dozens of times and its obvious the quality of this place has gone to shit and will continue to decay as more and more groups are caged or banned.

That's my 2 cents.


Did you even read my post>? I am against the restrictions you dumbass!I dont want to cage you! I said let you post anywere as long as you dont continuosly spam or flame!

[Guest1]

I don't like the term "moderate", I am by no means a moderate, I am a libertarian-green-communist.

Marx is no god, the manifesto is no bible, it is open to interpretation, my interpretation is that equality cannot come through oppression, even if it is by the oppressed.

But this is not what the thread here is for. It is time for communists to open the channels of debate on this site once again. This is like a wound, a gaping wound, in our movement. Far too long have we bickered. Now is the time for thoughtful learning through debate. We fight one enemy, and we must learn from one another to win. I have something to learn from you, and you from me, it is the only way for us to grow.

I for one vote to liberate our fellow communists.

[Mazdak]

Redcomrade. i wasnt attacking you, but defending against the end of your post (refering to the snobby attitude some of us have taken on.)

[Guest1]

I have started a vote in the CC about this, I want to get this done and over with. Please, anyone here who is not "caged", go and vote now.

[thursday night]

Che y Marijuana, thank you. :)

[Guest1]

Welcome :) though malte doesn't seem to like it, he flat out said no to making it a sticky.

[thursday night]

What exactly is the context of the vote?

[canikickit]

What exactly is the context of the vote?

Release all political prisoners now.

[Guest1]

pretty much, though malte is saying his decision is final, I don't see we have a choice but to try to get enough votes to sway him.

[Guest1]

This was my post:


Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 9:56 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
[Edit: please make this a sticky, malte, I think it's important and a time to decide.]


Regardless of my beliefs, I think debate, healthy debate that is civil, with people who I disagree with is the best way for me to educate myself and challenge my ideas. I think we should allow for that, not locking people up in opposing ideologies just cause they're "authoritarian". As long as they follow rules and are respectful, they should be treated as other communists here. Please post a blurb about your beliefs and a vote of yes or no on whether you support allowing "authoritarians" into other forums, including the CC, as long as they follow rules, as with everyone else.


(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 9:57 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)


Then:


Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 10:48 pm on Feb. 24, 2003
Well, the final decision of course comes down to malte, but I would still like to get a vote. I hope that in the end, it may convince malte.

It is my opinion that no harm is done, they should not be judged by their opinion, just the level of debate and civility, just like everyone else. If one person is an ass, deal with him, but some of them have proven to be intellectually challenging and well-articulated, capable of civil debate that can enlighten us and them. That's important. Enlightenment, intellectually, is a process, a never-ending process only achieved by challenging your own ideas, exposing yourself to other opinions.

That is the first ingredient to revolution.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 11:07 pm on Feb. 24, 2003)

[MJM]

I'm a Marxist-Leninist.
And I'm not restricted, along with many other Marxist-Leninists at this site.
I like neither Stalin, Mao or Trotsky.
They all have their faults and their strenths, but I think the bad outweighs the good.
I'd rather leave them all behind and look at some of the many other marxist ideas out there.

None of the three represent the next step in Lenins' ideas. So we should all stop fighting as if they do.



thursday night, you seem like an good comrade to me.
Mazdak, who knows, I'm as confused about him as he is.
Cassius Clay, I don't really know much about except s/he seems to be fixated with battling Trotskyists.

[Guest1]

but don't you agree that the only way to move forward is through debate? it's dialectical materialism, that was marx's (and hegel before him) greatest achievements, two ideas clash and a new one is formed, but blocking one will only lead to stagnation.

I don't think anyone should be locked out just cause they're "stalinist". Even though I don't think some of these people even should be referred to as "stalinists". It's not like they advocate mass-slaughter. We only differ on the points of how much control the party should have, and whether or not the party can be trusted with that power. Keep in mind the idea of a "vanguard party" is practiced in Cuba, communism's greatest success in social experimentation.

Open up the cage, at least for our comrades.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 11:37 pm on Feb. 25, 2003)

[Just Joe]

i'm a socialist but consider a Stalinist as much an enemy as a National Socialist. a police state is a police state be it red or brown.

every debate goes into Stalin vs Trotsky so i say there is no point letting Stalinists debate unless there is good moderating so debates that go off topic are dragged back on.

[Mazdak]

MJM, i am not confused in the least. the incoherence of my newer posts is simply because there is nothing to say in this forum. my usual places to frequent on the board (politically) were theory and history. Without them i dont feel like debating as much as i feel like SPAMMING. Not to mention i rarely have the time to do much of anything thanks to school work, so thinking clearly isnt a top priority in my life at the moment.

Just Joe, you do realize that Stalin did not have a police state?

[Guest1]

The whole reason this happened, there were a few people referring to themselves as stalinists who spammed and had little respect for members here. Malte was at the time the only mod, so it was a big problem, even with such few trouble makers, so he asked and we agreed that he should carry through purges of capitalists and stalinists, this evolving to caging, etc... Now, there are enough mods to control without limiting. I say we use that option.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 9:04 pm on Feb. 26, 2003)

[Revolution Hero]

My personal observation of the threads where so called “ Stalinists” debate with more liberal “leftists” allows me to say that the latter are always defeated. I do respect “Stalinists” for their hard-line position.
So why “Stalinists” are restricted? I don’t see any point in this “preventive measure”. They definitely have their own opinion on the topics in other forums which are by no means are connected with Stalin and his policy.
I DEMAND FREEDOM FOR ALL LEFTISTS!
EVERYBODY SHOULD BE TREATED EQUALLY, NO MATTER OF THEIR LEFTIST PREFERENCES!