Views of relevance of feminism

[jake williams]

I've had occasion to talk to a fair few Canadian teenage girls about feminism, and virtually none of them see any relevance of any feminism, at least here. Now I don't agree with them, but it's an interesting place to be put in. Thoughts?

[Tower of Bebel]

I don't know what you mean by "any feminism" since most people don't know about marxist feminism nor "anarcha-feminism". And how old were these teenage girls anyway?

I think feminism is relevant because a real struggle for women's liberation is struggle for communism. Feminism in general also put(s) the struggle for women on the map. It does away with a conservative bourgeois mentality and production relation that oppress women both in a materialist and moralist way. Feminism or struggle for equality is also important for women in terms of consciousness. This consciousness, built around daily struggle for respect, wages, equality, ..., etc. could one day become real class consciousness.

So, to me, feminism is still relevant.

[Decolonize The Left]

I've had occasion to talk to a fair few Canadian teenage girls about feminism, and virtually none of them see any relevance of any feminism, at least here. Now I don't agree with them, but it's an interesting place to be put in. Thoughts?

Feminism will continue to be relevant until equality is realized.

- August

[ifeelyou]

how silly. it's strange to think that some people probably don't consider where the few rights and benefits that women have came from, and who continues to fight in order to protect them.

[BobKKKindle$]

Feminism is still relevant, as although women are now able to exercise a greater degree of freedom than they were previously, prior to the implementation of legislative changes, women across the world still suffer oppression and are unable to participate in society on an equal basis with men. In democratic states, where women no longer face direct legal obstacles to equality, there is still a pay gap between men and women (based on their hourly rate in the UK in 2008, women who work full time earn 17% less than men on average) not only due to women being payed less than men who are working in the same position and performing the same tasks, but also (and mainly) due to the sexual division of labour - women are concentrated in jobs such as catering and cleaning, which are still considered traditional "female" jobs are so are accorded a low status relative to other forms of employment, and women also comprise a large proportion of part-time workers, as part-time work is the only form of work that can offer women the flexibility they need to manage the dual obligations of performing household tasks (especially caring for young children, and preparing meals for other members of the family) and making a contribution to the income of the family unit, although part-time work offers low pay and few opportunities for career advancement. Eliminating persistent economic inequality requires the provision of childcare resources and the socialization of all functions which currently occur inside the nuclear family, because the domestic division of labour (the division of household tasks according to sex) forms the basis of economic inequality, as the burden of household tasks restricts the ability of women to participate in public life.

Women also continue to face some legal obstacles. In the UK, to gain access to abortion, women are required to gain the consent of two doctors, and so male doctors who are influenced by sexist ideology are able to delay access or prevent women from obtaining an abortion.

[Black Dagger]

I've had occasion to talk to a fair few Canadian teenage girls about feminism, and virtually none of them see any relevance of any feminism, at least here. Now I don't agree with them, but it's an interesting place to be put in. Thoughts?

This made me think of an article i read recently:


Thatcher and her followers had their own think-tanks which drew the same conclusions. By the mid-1980s equality seemed like a sensible proposition to most women, so the media responded by declaring that feminism was outdated, a 1970s thing like flares. 'Post-feminism' was the new thing. It came complete with a younger generation who hated the women's movement. 'Post-feminist' was anti-feminist and it was set off not by women achieving their demands but by the fact that they looked in danger of getting too stroppy, too much of a threat.

More here (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/cwar/cw_women.html)

I've also encountered this attitude sometimes; i.e. that feminism is 'outdated' because women have already 'won' - people who believe that have simply been taken.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I've had occasion to talk to a fair few Canadian teenage girls about feminism, and virtually none of them see any relevance of any feminism, at least here. Now I don't agree with them, but it's an interesting place to be put in. Thoughts?
Sounds to me like these girls are naive and uneducated about equality issues such as feminism.

Perhaps they have been led to believe that since women have been emancipated that the struggle is over. Furthermore, likely they associate feminism with the bra-burning sixties, and don't realize that many branches of feminism exist (3rd wave feminism differs considerably from 2nd wave.)

There's nothing wrong with them that educating them about feminism wouldn't fix, so I suggest having some conversations with them; possibly encouraging them to take a women's studies class as a community college or adult centre.

If they are not receptive to the idea, however, they are still young. Hopefully sooner or later when they get into the real world they'll realize how sexist our culture continues to be.

[feminist dyke whore]

Whenever I mention feminism the general response is that it has some good ideas but generally they go too far - like Germaine Greer, she's just a crazy *****, did you hear what she said about Steve Irwin.
Feminism is full of complicated, often conflicting ideologies that can be easily overwhelming if you don't know anything about it - I remember my initial opinions that feminists were too busy fighting with one another to do any good. Since, my disgust has turned into appreciation at these womens disparate, yet continued efforts to combat such an embedded and engulfing affliction still present within society.
Have open discussions with them and explain why you feel feminism is still needed as women are still oppressed. Recommend some straightforward, beginner feminist texts for them to read and create their own opinions with.

[BobKKKindle$]

Feminism is full of complicated, often conflicting ideologies that can be easily overwhelming if you don't know anything about it

This is important - arguably is is difficult to speak of "feminism" as an ideology or coherent system of political thought because there are many different types of feminism with distinct forms of analysis, and historically there have been some issues which have created powerful internal divisions within the organized feminist movement, such as debates over how feminists should approach the issue of pornography, or whether feminists should argue for the prohibition of the sex industry.

[jake williams]

Feminism is full of complicated, often conflicting ideologies that can be easily overwhelming if you don't know anything about it
This is very true.


To give a little more information though: I am a male high school student and the fair number of conversations I'm referring to are classmates and the like. These are by and large relatively-well-off girls. They're not typically especially intellectual or political, by and large the main interests are iPods, cell phones and alcohol, if I might generalize a teensy.

Now here's the thing - I'm sure as much as I've posted to here makes it pretty clear that lecturing these people is going to make me come off as prickish, and I won't be listened to. A lot of them don't seem to consider much of the history - the view is that men and women are "different", as different as they should be, and are treated as differently as they should be, and "feminists" are strange extremists who don't understand reality and they just ***** all the time about unimportant things. This is essentially the picture. Others are sort of aware of the history, but still figure we're "done" and there's nothing more to do on the gender question.

I try plenty to politicize whomever will listen to me for a moment, but I don't think I've been especially successful.

[Philosophical Materialist]

There is a complacency amongst some liberals that the battle for equality "has already been won" and there's "no need for feminism." Liberal feminism is itself based on the idea that legislation alone can cure sexism and the gender gap. While anti-discrimination legislation is in place as well as female suffrage, it is obvious that the gender gap and sexism is still endemic.

Even the liberal Fawcett Society (the most prolific feminist group) in the UK is aware that the gender equality gap still exists. Unfortunately they think the answer is more legislation within a market liberal framework, and they do not tackle the relationship of female super-exploitation and property relations.

My experience with getting both genders interested in feminism in university was that some women believed the battles had already been won, and others had mistakenly identified feminism with some sort of female-supremacist ideology. Since the 1980s, there has been a very anti-feminist effort by the conservative media to demonise feminism in general and to define it in the terms of lesbian separatism, which is itself a tiny branch of feminism.

I have found that older female workers in the private sector are more aware of their exploitation, since it is here that the supposed legal protections offered by equal pay and anti-discrimination acts are at their weakest. A consistent awareness of their own exploitation does generate a feminist consciousness but it is tempered somewhat with the fractured nature of the women's movement since the 1980s. This is not unlike the state of the patchwork of socialist movements within Britain today, and thus the relatively low socialist consciousness amongst British workers since the 1980s.

[feminist dyke whore]

I am a female high school student with by-and-large well-off girls so I understand your problem. I guess trying to relate feminism to their worlds might help - most would agree that equality is fair, so show them how discrimination is in society and how it affects them. The fact that even if men and women are in theory legally required to be payed equal work for equal pay, which does not account for traditional social values which places women as the nurturing, caring, deity of a family resulting in various family commitments such as maternal leave - resulting in the assertion that these women are not doing equal work and should therefore be paid less.
It also fails to address the fact that traditional "women’s" occupations such as nursing or teaching are severely underpaid.
These girls I would assume are under the assumption that biology is the same as gender and do not realize that men and women’s "inherent differences" can be attributed to conditioning. An easy example of this is the assertion that women are more emotional - ask them to think what happens when they cry - most likely they are comforted and consoled (a positive reinforcement), whilst men are largely ignored resulting in frustration and anger - which is a reaction seen more appropriate and masculine.
It may be that these girls just are not interested in something that doesn’t “affect” them, which I understand is highly frustrating, but if they’re not willing to see a different perspective there is not a lot you can do.

[MarxSchmarx]

Other comrades have so far given fair defenses of feminism as such, and have tried to address the perception problem as well.

I think the problem with perception of "feminism" isn't that feminism has gone too far - I think what really is the problem is that it hasn't gone far enough.

Feminism is about everybody's struggle for equality. This has justifiably focused heavily on women, and there is still a very, very long way to go. This is especially true outside of the first world, and anybody who says feminism is no longer relevant, has come perilously close to forgetting about the majority of the world's women.

I hasten to add, that of course we should eliminate the pay gap between men and women. But we need a critique that says we should eliminate any pay gaps. People too often conflate feminism's goal as having women CEO's, token or in parity. Yet the goal of feminism is to abolish CEOs.