Cuba is and will continue to be socialist - Digital Gramma i

[RedCeltic]

PRESIDENT Fidel Castro affirmed that developed capitalism, imperialism and neo-liberal globalization have been imposed on the world, as has the lack the basic principles of justice.

Fidel was speaking at the closure of the 5th International Conference of Economists on Globalization and Problems of Development, on Sunday (February 16) at the International Conference Center. The conference took place over five intense days of productive work.

After a brief review of history, he noted that today, sights have been set on the WTO and the IMF, the control of the world’s financial resources, privatization, patents monopolies and the pretense of demanding debt payments impossible to recover or pay.

Referring to the probable war against Iraq, Fidel pointed out that no one can say beforehand what the Iraqi people’s reaction or resistance will be like, how long the war might last, how many deaths and how much destruction it might cause once it develops into a patriotic war for the country under attack.

The President began by asking: Where are the minimal conditions of equality for development? In whose hands lie the international financial institutions? Who pays attention when a country’s population decreases and when its health indices worsen? Who destroys others’ national cultures? plus other similar questions.

The leader also noted that the current world order is neither sustainable nor endurable and that neo-liberal globalization is the most shameful re-colonization of the Third World.

Later, when referring to the invention of free currency exchange that sucks the lifeblood out of poor countries, Fidel praised the Venezuelan people and their brave leader who recently established a currency exchange control mechanism, thus putting an end to disorder.

Likewise, in midst of such a convulsive situation, Fidel confirmed that we are privileged to be living in the most extraordinary time in the history of the humankind, reiterating that Cuba lives and will continue to live in socialism.


from http://www.granma.cu/ingles/feb03/lu17/7clausu.html

[Guardia Bolivariano]

IN YOUR FACE MIAMI!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 11:31 pm on Feb. 20, 2003)

[Palmares]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 9:30 am on Feb. 21, 2003
IN YOUR FACE MIAMI!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 11:31 pm on Feb. 20, 2003)


Well said comrade!!!

[Liberty Lover]

"Cuba lives and will continue to live in socialism."

It currently lives in socialism but it won't for long. Yesterdays revolution will have no tommorow. Cuba will be free from Castro.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 9:15 am on Feb. 21, 2003
"Cuba lives and will continue to live in socialism."

It currently lives in socialism but it won't for long. Yesterdays revolution will have no tommorow. Cuba will be free from Castro.



I'm sorry to have to tell you that Castro is not a political system he is just a leader and when he goes his brother will take his place.So don't count on seing a Burguer King in Cuba any time soon.;)

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 12:22 pm on Feb. 21, 2003)

[Goldfinger]

I don't like the dictatorship in Cuba at all. They have failed to create a democratic classless society. But they are very close. With a few adjustments, and increasing democracy, Cuba will be a socialist utopia.

[Rastafari]

I may have already posted this elsewhere, but in this interview as well he states that socialism will continue to exist within Cuba: http://www.msnbc.com/news/862648.asp#BODY
I think, personally, that the new leader will be more revolutionary and be more like Chavez, that is, unaware. I like Chavez but I realize he does not yet have the wisdom of Castro. Castro sucessfully leads a country closer and closer to a true state, but doesn't make headlines and seem to grab attention. Chavez does not seem to realize that capitalism will squash him so he does not take the closer path, like Castro. Maybe this ardent fearlessness is necessary, however, in the first few years.

Just some jumbled thoughts.

[thursday night]

"I don't like the dictatorship in Cuba at all. They have failed to create a democratic classless society. But they are very close. With a few adjustments, and increasing democracy, Cuba will be a socialist utopia."

First of all, I have been to Cuba and I can tell you that it is a very democratic people’s socialist country. Delegates to local people’s councils, provincial assemblies and the national parliament National Assembly of People’s Power are all nominated by people’s organizations such as woman’s groups, trade unions, youth groups and so on. The populace then directly elects them. Furthermore, I am a strong believer that democracy is not only being to put some tick on a piece of paper, it is also freedom from easily curable diseases, freedom from exploitation and so on. How somebody could be a Marxist-Leninist and not be a proud defender of the glorious Cuban socialism amazes me.

You also have to realize that as long as there is a war between socialism and capitalism it is nigh impossible to create a ‘classless’ society.

“It currently lives in socialism but it won't for long. Yesterdays revolution will have no tommorow. Cuba will be free from Castro.”

Free from dear old Fidel? In other words, they will be free from a free and universal healthcare system? Free from a people’s democracy that does work? Free from illiteracy? Free from free education from pre-school up to the University level? Free from an income gap that is wider than the Grand Canyon? If this is being ‘free’ from Fidel, then let them be ‘unfree’!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Rastafari on 1:47 pm on Feb. 21, 2003
I may have already posted this elsewhere, but in this interview as well he states that socialism will continue to exist within Cuba: http://www.msnbc.com/news/862648.asp#BODY
I think, personally, that the new leader will be more revolutionary and be more like Chavez, that is, unaware. I like Chavez but I realize he does not yet have the wisdom of Castro. Castro sucessfully leads a country closer and closer to a true state, but doesn't make headlines and seem to grab attention. Chavez does not seem to realize that capitalism will squash him so he does not take the closer path, like Castro. Maybe this ardent fearlessness is necessary, however, in the first few years.

Just some jumbled thoughts.


I agrre that many times Chavez takes a diferent and harder aproach to the same situations Castro faced.But president Chavez cannot behave like Castro did for 3 main reasons:
No USSR to back him up.

He got to power by election and not buy beating a dictator's goverment.So he can't just go around changing things whitout the law to back him up.
And finally he has to work with the laws of the Bolivarian constatution a constitucion he helped create.

I think given the circumstances he has done a lot to change Venezuela ,we really have change from a rich govern nation to a nation of revolutionay youth that surches for new systems to take the place of capitalism.

[CruelVerdad]

El socialismo nunca morirá!
I find this very interesting, specially because I live in South America...
And don´t worry, Cuba will keep on with socialism.

[Liberty Lover]

“It currently lives in socialism but it won't for long. Yesterdays revolution will have no tommorow. Cuba will be free from Castro.”

Free from dear old Fidel? In other words, they will be free from a free and universal healthcare system? Free from a people’s democracy that does work? Free from illiteracy? Free from free education from pre-school up to the University level? Free from an income gap that is wider than the Grand Canyon? If this is being ‘free’ from Fidel, then let them be ‘unfree’!
[/quote]

Free from tyranny, free from oppresion, free from poverty, free from laws that oulaw speech.

[Pete]

Free from tyranny, free from oppresion, free from poverty, free from laws that oulaw speech.

So you want Bush dead? Get your leader right.

1. There is no poverty in Cuba
2. Laws do not outlaw freedom of speech. 'Man and Socialism in Cuba' is all about this. The American Patriot act outlaws freedom of speech.
3. Castro is not a tyrant. Their are opposition parties, they are just nothing compared to the Communist Party.
4. They are not oppressed, far from it!

[Liberty Lover]

"1. There is no poverty in Cuba"

90% of Cubans live under what most western nations condider to be the poverty line.

"2. Laws do not outlaw freedom of speech."

laws in Cuba aren't needed to put someone in prison

"3. Castro is not a tyrant."

LOL

"4. They are not oppressed, far from it!"

Why then have so many fled or atempted to flee there country

[Pete]

1. The average american salary is below the Poverty line. Cuba is not a capitalist country, they do not need as much money to spread on crap. They have moral, not material, inscentives at play. Do not try and compare Cuba to the West on the bases of Capital. Capital is in teh hadns of the workers not the corporations!
2. Constitutions are ignored in America. Hapeas corpus denied. What you are saying is a lie. They have mass protests for and against he government often, there is a waiting list to go to america. They fund the bastards to leave if they want. Most people don't want to go.
3. Castro is elected, and supported. If he makes a mistake then the people's enthuasasm drops and the workers councils fix it. The workers councils are the source of power, and they are made up of workers not elite like say political parties in America.
4. Propaganda, greed, they are bastards as I said above. They get to America and find conditions worse then in Cuba. No free education no free healthcare. They are not exiles or refugees but people who are too stupid to count their chickens after tehy are hatched, so they count how many they could have in 4 generatoins time.

[pastradamus]

Poverty wouldnt exist In cuba if it wasn't for your precious embargo.Your pathetic excuse for a government is slowly killing off the cuban people.
Why?
Because without an embargo everything points to ecnomic success on cuba.


How is castro a tyrant? Based on your american standards,I'd say he's a living jesus christ.The american standard is a facist opression of latin america,and a ruthless colonisation of the rest of the world.

[pastradamus]

Answer to #1 : imperalistic embargo

#2 :Laws arent needed to kill innocent citizens in Iraq neither.
#3 :Castro is a living jesus on your american standards of tyranny.
#4 :Imperalistic embargo

[IHP]

"1. There is no poverty in Cuba"

90% of Cubans live under what most western nations condider to be the poverty line.

"2. Laws do not outlaw freedom of speech."

laws in Cuba aren't needed to put someone in prison

"3. Castro is not a tyrant."

LOL

"4. They are not oppressed, far from it!"

Why then have so many fled or atempted to flee there country "

Could you please provide us with the appropriate evidence as to these claims?

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

i hate pinochet,
Read any book or article about Cuba that wasn't written by a communist.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from pastradamus on 9:35 am on Feb. 22, 2003
Poverty wouldnt exist In cuba if it wasn't for your precious embargo.Your pathetic excuse for a government is slowly killing off the cuban people.
Why?
Because without an embargo everything points to ecnomic success on cuba.

How is castro a tyrant? Based on your american standards,I'd say he's a living jesus christ.The american standard is a facist opression of latin america,and a ruthless colonisation of the rest of the world.


So you support free trade with third world nations now? And here I thought you leftist fucks were angainst globalization!

Oh and another thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cuba currently engage in active trade with Europe, Canada, Mexico and the rest of Latin America?

[abstractmentality]

DC: not all trade is free trade. i do not believe Pastradamus was refering to free trade, as he didnt say anything in the post about free trade.

[Comrade Daniel]

Liberty lover you are really with stupid,
If the Cubans want another leader they can overtrhow Castro bu the DON"T because they love em it's simply like that.

[Liberty Lover]

Comrade Daniel,
All Cubans know about Castro is what state owned and run media tells them. And I would suggest you are "with stupid" if you think a small group who see through Castro's propaganda machine could "overthrow" a regime that has military backing.

[Comrade Daniel]

And what about those fukcing Cubans who flee to Miami? With US support they attack Cuba with terrorist attacks, as someone said before: Cuba is full of revolutionaries if the wan't they execute him but they don't.

[Liberty Lover]

Cuba's 'true' revolutionaries are in prison for speaking out against Castro's corrupt rule.

[Pete]

"And here I thought you leftist fucks were angainst globalization!"

I am personaly not against globalization! Tear down national borders create a global state. That why America cannot oppress other peoples because 1 Vietnemese = 1 American = 1 Tajikistani = 1 Zaire person = 1 Peasant from St. Pierre. Globalization should be for the benefit of humanity not a few greedy corporations. 10% of the world population will control 10% of the worlds wealth. I want globalization not Neo-colonialization. I'm sure most other lefties (minus stalinists) agree!

" All Cubans know about Castro is what state owned and run media tells them. And I would suggest you are "with stupid" if you think a small group who see through Castro's propaganda machine could "overthrow" a regime that has military backing. "

English isn't Daniels first langauge, don't attack him based on that. In French you say Tu a retard (you have late) to say you are stupid. I think the propaganda machine you are takling about is in Flordia. Who was it who stood and watched as counter revolutionaries where killed and withdrew support? AMERICA. Who was it who watched when (in Iraq) the revolution that they told the people to have was cut down by the government? AMERICA. Liberty Lover, take your mind out of it's capitalist propaganda. I have only read one book on Cuba by a communists. That was by Che Guevara explaining how Socialism can work in a country. You are suggesting that capitalists with their material wants will paint a more accurate picture of a nation based on moral inscentives then people who feel those insentives?

"Cuba's 'true' revolutionaries are in prison for speaking out against Castro's corrupt rule. "

Give us proof. Link us to your source, or atleast state the book you are getting this from. The true revolutionaires overthrew capitalism over 40 years ago in the name of Freedom and Equality. Why can't American's see that they are not the cutting edge of freedom and get over that jealousy and accept Cuba for whta it is not for what they want it to be?

[Pete]

"CrazyPete,
I said DEMOCRATIC elections. These involve choosing between several people from several parties. Not choosing between a bunch of people from the same party with the same ideals. "

America does not have democratic elections. They have proved in 2000 that tehy can be bought by the plutocrats. In Cuba their are opposition parties. I read that in a book by a capitalist called Cuba: Communism or Castroism. The people do not like the opposition so they do not vote for them. They want socialism because they realize that capitalism is the creation of hypocrisy and lies. Liberty Lover find a new line to sing, yours is getting old.

[thursday night]

As a person who has traveled to Cuba and has spent countless hours studying the complex situation there perhaps I can shed a little intellectual light on the subject. (God knows if I’ll get a reply, people tend to be afraid of big words!)

“Free from tyranny, free from oppresion”

What tyranny? Other than the extreme right-wing exiles in Miami, who are all it is worth mentioning upper-class peoples who had their private property taken away, no Cuban people will tell you there is tyranny. I have talked to Cuba people from all walks of life there and the basic fact is that they simply live their lives happily; enjoying the many social benefits provided to them by the state and support the socialist system. Please tell me, Liberty Lover, why if the socialist regime is so cruel and tyrannical has Fidel not been overthrown many years ago? They have survived full scale invasions, coup attempts, bandit marauders in the wilds, terrorist attacks, assassination attempts, a long and terrible economic embargo, and an endless barrage of anti-socialist propaganda all stemming from the same source: the Miami exiles and the United States of America. It takes a socialist island with eleven million people behind Fidelito to stand against the imperialist aggressors.

And also, with America’s track record with installing ‘democratic’ regimes across the globe, do you realling think the Cuban people would be better off with another American-flag waving tin-pot dictator?

“free from poverty”

I’m afraid that there is more to this subject than meets the eye. First of all, the reason that living conditions are not on par with First World nations is because Cuba is not a First World nation. Cuba remains a Third World nation and in Third World countries do not have the same living standards as First World nations. Why is Cuba still a Third World country? In part because of the embargo against it, in part because of the loss of economic aid from the Soviet Union and in part because of mistakes by governmental officials in planning the economy during the sixties. Nevertheless, for a Third World country I can tell you that the Cuban people live quite well. Not having to mention the fantastic social services free and universal to them all, everybody lives in a decent home and has food to it. While I was walking down the non-tourist shopping districts in Havana I stopped in at a few stores in which Cubans were shopping. What was being sold? Classic American propaganda pictures of starving, rag wearing workers in long food lines? No! People were browsing through clothes and there were even large Sony boom boxes for sale. It reminded me of home in many ways! So, where is the terrible poverty?

Let’s compare the average Cuban to the average Haitian or Dominican, or any average person in Central America. There are no children rummaging through garbage dumps, starving and looking for scraps in Cuba. And furthermore the income gap is not nearly as huge as it is in other neighboring Third World nations. Back to the comparison.

Cuban life expectancy at birth:
female: 79.15 years (2002 est.)
male: 74.2 years

Haitian life expectancy at birth:
female: 51.29 years (2002 est.)
male: 47.88 years

Cuban HIV rate:
0.03% (1999 est.)

Haitian HIV rate:
5.17% (1999 est.)

Dominican Republic HIV rate:
2.8% (1999 est.)

Cuban infant mortality rate:
7.27 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)

Haitian infant mortality rate:
93.35 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)

Dominican Republic infant mortality rate:
33.41 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)

So as you can see, Cuba by far gives its citizens much higher living standards than other Third World countries. I have seen it for myself and the facts are on the side of the Republic of Cuba.

“free from laws that oulaw speech.”

I walked down the street with people, right passed police and military officials, and they gave me their opinion of the state of things. Many were proud and spoke very highly of socialism, and many said that life was sometimes quite hard. If there was no free speech, would people be allowed to say that life was hard?

[Blibblob]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 5:01 am on Feb. 22, 2003
Comrade Daniel,
All Cubans know about Castro is what state owned and run media tells them. And I would suggest you are "with stupid" if you think a small group who see through Castro's propaganda machine could "overthrow" a regime that has military backing.


And all you know about Cuba is what your government told you.

It gets old, people critizing from the proof that their government gave them, and defending their government because they have been brainwashed to beleive every word.

[Liberty Lover]

Here's a few.

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/prison.html

http://www.nocastro.com

http://www.directorio.org/political/political.htm

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/AMR250441997

I AM NOT AMERICAN. I AM AUSTRALIAN. CONTRARY TO WHAT I WOULD HAVE AUSTRALIA TRADES WITH CUBA!!!

[thursday night]

Well Liberty Lover, you have successfully completely not replied to anything I posted. You simply listed a few websites put together by anti-socialist, extreme right-wing Miami exiles. Yes, I am sure you are quite fond of these fascists and terrorists. Allow me to list a few of the terrorist atrocities backed by the CIA and committed by these bourgeoisie exiles.

October 15, 1994:
A group of armed terrorists coming from the United States landed on the causeway to "Cayo Santa María" near Caibarién, Villa Clara, and murdered comrade Arcelio Rodríguez García.

July 12, 1995:
Three terrorists were arrested in the United States as they were preparing to sneak into Cuba using an act of provocation just off the Cuban coast as cover. Despite confiscation of their weapons and explosives, U.S. authorities released them.

February 24, 1996:
"Brothers to the Rescue" launched a new foray. Three light planes violated Cuban airspace over the heart of Havana and two of them were shot down. In the 20 months prior to this incident there had been at least 25 other violations of Cuban airspace.

August 11, 1997:
The Miami press published a statement from the Cuban American National Foundation (CANF) giving unconditional support to the terrorist bomb attacks against civilian and tourist targets in Cuba. The chairman of this organization claimed: "We do not think of these as terrorist actions" and went on to say that any action against Cuba was legitimate.

November 17, 2000:
A group of terrorists headed by Posada Carriles was arrested in Panama. They had entered Panama with false documents to make an attempt on the life of President Fidel Castro during the X Ibero American Summit of Heads of State and Government. Their weapons, explosives and a sketch of Castro's route and public meetings were seized from them. The Cuban American National Foundation is paying for the team of lawyers defending the terrorists.
Here are clear examples of your fine Miami exiles that flee from Cuba after loosing their precious private property and then spread lies and exaggerations about socialism. Furthermore, I know well about the ‘political prisoners’ that are currently locked up in Cuban prisons where they belong. These near-fascists, terrorists and counterrevolutionaries deserve to be in prison; what do you expect to happen, the state just to allow terrorist violations and an unpopular war against socialism? I fully support the imprisonment of violent anti-socialist counterrevolutionaries in Cuba.

Allow me to quote a part of William Blum’s (who, it should be noted, is unlike myself not a Marxist-Leninist) essay entitled ‘The United States, Cuba, and this thing called democracy’ which can be found here (http://members.aol.com/bblum6/democ.htm).

During the period of the Cuban revolution, 1959 to
the present, Latin America has witnessed a terrible parade of
human rights violations -- systematic, routine torture;
legions of "disappeared" people; government-supported death squads
picking off selected individuals; massacres en masse of
peasants, students and other groups, shot down in cold blood;
journalists critical of the government frequently assassinated. *The
worst perpetrators of these acts during all or part of this
period have been the governments and associated paramilitary squads
of El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia,
Peru, Mexico, Uruguay, Haiti and Honduras. *
* * Not even Cuba's worst enemies have charged the Castro
government with any of these violations, and if one further
considers education and health care -- both of which are
guaranteed by the United Nations' "Universal Declaration
of Human Rights" and the "European Convention for the Protection
of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms" -- areas in which Cuba
has consistently ranked at or near the top in Latin America,
then it would appear that during the near-40 years of its
revolution, Cuba has enjoyed one of the very best human-rights
records in all of Latin America.
* * If, despite this record, the United States can insist
that Cuba is the only "non-democracy" in the Western Hemisphere,
we are left with the inescapable conclusion that this thing
called "democracy", as seen from the White House, may have
little or nothing to do with many of our most cherished human rights.
Indeed, numerous pronouncements emanating from Washington
officialdom over the years make plain that "democracy", at
best, or at most, is equated solely with elections and
civil liberties. Not even jobs, food and shelter are part of the
equation.

But anyways, you have still yet to reply to my post...

[thursday night]

Here is some more for you, Liberty Lover, and all other anti-Fidelistas.

http://revolucion42.netfirms.com/hospital_beds.gif

http://revolucion42.netfirms.com/physicians.gif

http://revolucion42.netfirms.com/literacy_rate.gif

[Liberty Lover]

"In Cuba their are opposition parties. I read that in a book by a capitalist called Cuba: Communism or Castroism. The people do not like the opposition so they do not vote for them. They want socialism because they realize that capitalism is the creation of hypocrisy and lies. Liberty Lover find a new line to sing, yours is getting old."

GET IT THROUGH YOU THIICK FUCKING HEAD CP. CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL. CUBANS GET A SELECTION BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM.

[Liberty Lover]

These are some nice facts TN...but what have they got to do with my argument that Castro should hold free democratic elections.

"You simply listed a few websites put together by anti-socialist, extreme right-wing Miami exiles"

Amnesty international...anti-socialist, extreme right-wing Miami exiles? Next your going to be telling me that Hitler was a pacifist.

[thursday night]

“GET IT THROUGH YOU THIICK FUCKING HEAD CP. CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL. CUBANS GET A SELECTION BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM.”

Maybe I should explain how people’s democracy works in Cuba. First of all yes, there is only one-party (Communist Party of Cuba). However, it is by law not allowed to field candidates for elections. Members of local people’s councils are popularly elected from the people by the people, and members of the National Assembly of People’s Power are nominated by mass people’s organizations (such as woman’s organizations, trade unions, student groups, youth clubs etc.) and then elected by the people. Some thirty-five to forty percent of the members of the National Assembly are not members of the Party. If you are still not convinced, I can get the accurate statistics for just who makes up the National Assembly.

When I was in Cuba I saw the posters all around Havana and elsewhere asking citizens to come to nomination meetings and nominate candidates for the ballots. I saw and talked to people about democracy in action.

[Liberty Lover]

And so I will say what I have said before. Castro's philosophy is "fuck everyone who isn't a communist"

[thursday night]

I believe my above posts answers your questions. Cuba is a socialist democracy. Democracy is not just the voting aspect, and democracy is not who has the most money from corporate loans and can buy the most advertising space and put up the most election signs so they can 'win' an election. One again I shall quote from William Blum's essay 'The United States, Cuba and this thing called democracy.'

Thus, a nation with hordes of hungry, homeless,
untended sick, barely literate, unemployed, and/or tortured
people, whose loved ones are being disappeared and/or murdered with
state connivance, can be said to be living in a "democracy" --
its literal Greek meaning of "rule of the people" implying
that this is the kind of life the people actually want --
provided that every two years or four years they have the right to go
to a designated place and put an X next to the name of one or
another individual who promises to relieve their miserable
condition, but who will, typically, do virtually nothing of the kind;
and provided further that in this society there is at least a
certain minimum of freedom -- how much being in large measure
a function of one's wealth -- for one to express ones views
about the powers-that-be and the workings of the society, without
undue fear of punishment, regardless of whether expressing these
views has any influence whatsoever over the way things are.
It is not by chance that the United States has defined
democracy in this narrow manner. Throughout the cold war, the
absence of "free and fair" multiparty elections and adequate
civil liberties were what marked the Soviet foe and its
satellites. These nations, however, provided their citizens
with a relatively decent standard of living insofar as
employment, food, health care, education, etc., without
omnipresent Brazilian torture or Guatemalan death squads. At
the same time, many of America's Third World allies in the cold
war -- members of what Washington still likes to refer to as
"The Free World" -- were human-rights disaster areas, who could
boast of little other than the 30-second democracy of the polling
booth and a tolerance for dissenting opinion so long as it didn't
cut too close to the bone or threaten to turn into a movement.

Is the kind of democracy being practiced in the American puppet states what you prefer? Do you really believe that the Cuban people would be better off without the social services I have listed and given facts to?

[thursday night]

“And so I will say what I have said before. Castro's philosophy is "fuck everyone who isn't a communist””

First of, what does this have to do with anything I have said? Second, you haven’t replied to my explanation, and third there is no proof of this viciously fallacious statement.

[Liberty Lover]

"Cuba is a socialist democracy."

Socialist democracy is a clear contradiction in terms.

"Democracy is not just the voting aspect."

I know...it also involves freedom of speech and right to a fair trial...amongst others. Cubans have none of them.

[thursday night]

"Socialist democracy is a clear contradiction in terms."

Really. Despite the fact I have given substantial evidence that the Republic of Cuba has a considerably democratic system of socialist democracy you still spread this rhetoric without even attempting to provide any evidence, proof or even debating the points I have made.

"it also involves freedom of speech and right to a fair trial...amongst others. Cubans have none of them."

As to freedom of speech I can tell you that Cubans certainly have it. As I have posted before in this thread, I have walked down the street with Cubans while they have either vocally supported socialism and also saying that life is often “hard” and “difficult” all while strolling right past police and military officials. If Cuba has no free speech, as you claim, how come citizens are allowed to say to foreigners that life is hard without so much as being frowned upon? This is a mere example of the substantial evidence that weighs against your claim.

Furthermore, Cuba has won many awards for upholding human rights as par the United Nations “Universal Declaration of Human Rights.” I shall show you some examples on how Cuba is extremely vigilant on human rights.

“Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”

All Cubans are equal under socialism and black or white, there is an extreme sense of brotherhood among them.

“Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.”

Of course Cuba abides to all of these quite well as they are base beliefs to socialism.
“Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.”

As I have shown you by way of facts, education is excellent in Cuba and totally free.

“Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.”

Again Cuba excels as I have explained in previous posts the extent of the excellent of Cuban healthcare.

[Xvall]

Why then have so many fled or atempted to flee there country

Irrelevant! More people leave countries like Mexico and Haiti than they do Cuba; and those countries participate in 'free trade'! In such a case; it would seem that the horrors of capitalism surpass those of socialism; those horrors of socialism being food, education, and housing for all.

GET IT THROUGH YOU THIICK FUCKING HEAD CP. CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL. CUBANS GET A SELECTION BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM.

And here in America, I get a choice between a corporate-sponsered republican, and a corporate-sponsered Democrat. The other parties never win, as they do not have the 'capital' nececarry to promote the ideals of their party in America. The only way a person in America could become part of the government is with a substantial amount of currency. In socialist countries however, as all members of society are on the same level, no one has the upper hand, and anyone can become part of the government without the need of useless paper.

[Xvall]

And so I will say what I have said before. Castro's philosophy is "fuck everyone who isn't a communist"

I believe you are misunderstanding how this works. It is a one party state for the sake of sheer simplicity. As the United States has shown us; seperating the society into diffirent 'classes' and 'parties' causes nothing by internal self-destruction, and pointless feuding between the varying factions of the nation. Think of the one party state not as an elite group, but rather as the sole group that all members of society belong to. As Comrade Thursday stated, by law, they may not single out canidates. Anyone is free to run for the party, regardless of who they are. Maybe the reason there are no capitalists in the Cuban Government is because the people of Cuba are sensible enough to not vote for them.

[Blibblob]

Liberty lover... I am thinking you are almost worse than CI. You at least try to find information... however false it may be. Nothing is ever unbiased. That is imposible. Castro is much loved by his people.

And sadly... the entire point of communism is to bring down capitalism. But it goes the other way also.

[Liberty Lover]

"Maybe the reason there are no capitalists in the Cuban Government is because the people of Cuba are sensible enough to not vote for them"

Or maybe it's because state run and owned media tells them what to think.

[IHP]

"i hate pinochet,
Read any book or article about Cuba that wasn't written by a communist."

I wanted evidence. This is a fools answer, a sort of brush away. It is clear for everyone to see that you dont have any evidence, just some rhetoric.

And as an Australian and I am ashamed that you, living outside the bubble of American propaganda, could be so blind.

"These are some nice facts TN...but what have they got to do with my argument that Castro should hold free democratic elections.

Would you class free democratic elections on the basis that through correct prcedure both parties contending have equal chance of winning? Kindly explain why Bush won the US election, despite getting much less votes, and breaking the law. in this free democratic election?

"I AM NOT AMERICAN. I AM AUSTRALIAN. CONTRARY TO WHAT I WOULD HAVE AUSTRALIA TRADES WITH CUBA!!!

So it's a racial thing? Why then, do we trade with the US who puts huge tarriffs on or products? Doesn't that contradict the "fair go" idea of Australia. Japan is our largest customer, and they did disgusting things during WW2, so then should we not trade with them? Oh, and we trade about $800M worth of grain with Iraq, meanwhile we are threatening war! Bloody hell Liberty Lover, double standards indeed.

"Or maybe it's because state run and owned media tells them what to think."

Oh, thats rich. I can't fathom you total ignorance. You an Australian believes this meanwhile we have the Anti-Terrorist ads, along with the anti-terrorist package that cost $15M. Of course, you believe that we're shown all the facts on our own television networks, half the story isn't hidden from us. Are you in Melbourne? I think you'd enjoy Andrew Bolts unltraconservative views. I suggest you read his articles in the Herald Sun, you might even believe some of it.

So could you please provide me with the evidence I asked for earlier?

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 4:06 am on Feb. 23, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

"Would you class free democratic elections on the basis that through correct prcedure both parties contending have equal chance of winning? Kindly explain why Bush won the US election, despite getting much less votes, and breaking the law. in this free democratic election?"

I don't believe I have expressed an opinion regarding this.

"So it's a racial thing? Why then, do we trade with the US who puts huge tarriffs on or products? Doesn't that contradict the "fair go" idea of Australia. Japan is our largest customer, and they did disgusting things during WW2, so then should we not trade with them? Oh, and we trade about $800M worth of grain with Iraq, meanwhile we are threatening war! Bloody hell Liberty Lover, double standards indeed."

Japan isn't currently ruled by a dictator.

"Oh, thats rich. I can't fathom you total ignorance. You an Australian believes this meanwhile we have the Anti-Terrorist ads, along with the anti-terrorist package that cost $15M. Of course, you believe that we're shown all the facts on our own television networks, half the story isn't hidden from us."

And how do you know for sure what the real "story" is?

[thursday night]

Interesting, Liberty Lover, how you simply refuse to answer any of my points and now try to change the conversation because, flatly, I have defeated you and you really have no idea what to say at the tidal wave of evidence that is crashing down around you.

[Liberty Lover]

thursday night,
you presented me with no facts relevant to my argument that Cuba should hold multi-pary elections...you just cut&pasted a lot of stuff.

[thursday night]

I presented you with an explanation of how the one-party people's republic works, an explanation of how this system is democratic and an explanation of how Cuba excels at human rights. Now, how have I not debated with you?

[Larissa]

Liberty Lover, why don't you just take a break and travel to Cuba, not as a cappie tourist, just live there for some time, like Jon Anderson did.

Cuba doesn't have ONLY ONE political party and the political elections are democratic, plus, the president doesn't need to steal the elections.

There is no such thing as "homeless" people, starving or living on rubbish, like in most big capitalistic cities like the one I live or like NY.

They have the highest standards of health, literacy, university education, etc.

Fidel is loved by his people and that's why they vote for him. How come 11 million ppl love him if you say he is a dictator??

I've been living in Cuba and I usually travel once a year, so quit talking nonsense and educate yourself.

[thursday night]

I have also travelled to Cuba.

[IHP]

"I don't believe I have expressed an opinion regarding this."

So you don't dispute my defintion, and further, you cannot counter with any evidence.

"Japan isn't currently ruled by a dictator."

So you totally base your foreign affairs on who's in charge? Geez, you'd make a fantastic diplomat! Why do you not dispute the trading with Iraq? But back to Japan, they had terrible human rights records, so does China, why do you condone that? You have singled out Cuba, but you ignore the rest of the world. My question for you is, who do you condone Australia trading with?

"And how do you know for sure what the real "story" is"

You haven't addressed my point at all. But I'll answer yours. No, I don't know the whole story, the papers don't know the whole story. But if you back off and study the facts, a different story appears.

I am still waiting for the evidence I requested.

All in all you have presented a very weak defence. Thursday Night showed you the stats. Open your eyes Liberty Lover.

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

Larissa,
I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.
CUBA HAS A ONE PARTY POLITICAL SYSTEM!!! CUBANS CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN COMMUNISM, COMMUNISM AND COMMUNISM. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE PARTY DEMOCRACY.

i hate pinochet,
Your right, Japan HAD...HAD...a terrible human rights record. It dosen't now so we should trade with them. As for Iraq and China...I have never condoned nor will I condone Australia trading with them. I believe the west should offer them isolation or the gun.

[Aleksander Nordby]

Communism is real democracy...

[Larissa]

Liberty,
Have you ever in your life heard about the Varela Project? No, you haven't, otherwise you wouldn't say that Cuba has one political party.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

[RedComrade]

Liberty Lover you are an ignorant scum, any idiot with a minimal knowledge of political science knows there is no such thing as a capitalist democracy unless you consider moneys will just as important as as the peoples. One of the first lessons of political science when determining who will when is who can raise the most money, and some fools are so naive as to beleive in capitalism it is the peoples will reflected, what a joke!

[thursday night]

“AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE PARTY DEMOCRACY.”

Interesting how I just explain just how democratic Cuba is and you retort to screaming in upper case. Curious.

[Larissa]

The more he screams, the less reason he has. No need to add more, nor to debate with his senseless empty statements.

[InnocentCivilian]

i know its a simple point but if the cubans didn't like castro wouldn't they over throw him? it is a land which has been taught about the revolution there and what happened so surely if they didn't like him and his ideology they would (as i said before) get rid of him

jus a thought

[Pete]

Liberty Lover answer the questions presented to you, read the responses, EDUCATE YOUR SELF DAMNIT! You are what I would expect from an uneducated American, not an Australian! I'm sure you have less baised media then my American comrades do. And they see through the lies. WAKE THE FUCK UP.
Thank you.
As larissa said Hasta la victoria siempre!

[IHP]

Ok, so no trade with China or no trade with Iraq? Am I correct?

Let's see, you are set to lose 25 billion dollars in not trading wiht China. But wait, that's only the natural gas that we sell them. And you will lose 800 million dollars A YEAR from not selling grain to Iraq.

$25 800 000 000.

Thats a few bucks your throwing away there mate. Not exactly what I would expect from a capitalist.

For the third time, can you please provide me with the evidence that I asked for.

--IHP

[Weatherman]

Liberty lover you are one of the most brainwashed people i've seen on this site. Nothing more needs to be said. You refuse to admit when your wrong. You believe the lies that they tell you. You dont love liberty, you love ignorance.

[Pete]

Comrade Weatherman...do you realize the extreme and violent rightest connections to your name? Look here (http://www.findarticles.com/g1epc/tov/2419101303/p1/article.jhtml). That isn't the best site. It makes them look semi leftist, but they where fascist white supremists. Just thought I'd let you know.

[Liberty Lover]

IHP,
I consider Liberty to be of creater importance than wealth

[thursday night]

Once again you refuse to even begin to reply to the huge amount of evidence in debate against you. Liberty Lover there is no shame in admitting defeat.

[IHP]

"IHP,
I consider Liberty to be of creater importance than wealth"

Then what in gods name is your stance? You aren't a capitalist, are you simply anti-communist. You are totally avoiding any arguments put forward to you.

For the FOURTH time, I request the evidence I asked of you pages ago. Please show me.

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

"Then what in gods name is your stance? You aren't a capitalist, are you simply anti-communist. You are totally avoiding any arguments put forward to you."

Just because I do not believe democracies should interact with dictatorships dosn't mean I do not think capitalism to be the most effective and fairest economic system.

"For the FOURTH time, I request the evidence I asked of you pages ago. Please show me."

Evidence for what now?

[suffianr]

Castro was in Kuala Lumpur during the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) summit, last week.

Curiously, the Malaysian government seemed to warm up to him, and although it's mere speculation, sources indicate that a strengthening of ties between the two nations is in the works.

Solidarity with Cuba!

[Larissa]

"Castro was in Kuala Lumpur during the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) summit, last week."

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/feb03/jue27/8china-i.html

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from suffianr on 12:43 pm on Feb. 28, 2003
Castro was in Kuala Lumpur during the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) summit, last week.

Curiously, the Malaysian government seemed to warm up to him, and although it's mere speculation, sources indicate that a strengthening of ties between the two nations is in the works.

Solidarity with Cuba!


Well what a big suprise that is. Mahatir, American bashing dictator No.1, is getting along with Castro. Who the hell would have thought that possible!?

[suffianr]

Mahathir might come off as a little outspoken when it comes to issues of sovereignty, but the moment a Third World politician stands up to the US, he automatically becomes an American-basher?

[Liberty Lover]

So your an advocate of Mahatir's dictatorial rule then suffianr?

[suffianr]

So your an advocate of Mahatir's dictatorial rule then suffianr?

Advocate?

LOL, more like victim.

No, I am not an advocate. I disagree with most of his policies, especially the ones concerning the welfare of the Bumiputeras.

But unlike the opinion leaders in Saudi Arabia, or the Phillipines, Mahathir has the, how shall I say, testicular fortitude to periodically voice out his concerns on US policies, despite being constrained by the Third World's diplomatic imperative to be selectively critical in order to not appear too assertive.

You know what happens to assertive Third World countries, right? :)

[IHP]

"Just because I do not believe democracies should interact with dictatorships dosn't mean I do not think capitalism to be the most effective and fairest economic system."

Ok, now there's one for the history pages. As a capitalist surely the loss of twenty five billion dollars plays at your mind. Come on now. So you don't condone trade with "dictatorships" what about the US and their modern imperialistic tendencies? Need I mention....geez theres too many, I think I'll go with....Okinawa. no, South Korea. I can't understand your ideology bucko. I think you condone trade with western nations, I'm right aren't I?

The evidence I have now requested five time is on an earlier page in regards to Cuba. If you cannot provide me with this, I have the right to declare you a brain-washed bigot, who believes whatever Andrew Bolt tells him to. Ok? deal.

--IHP


(Edited by i hate pinochet at 8:41 am on Mar. 2, 2003)

[Sirion]

We should create a hall of shame, with the most ignorant cappie posts ever posted on the board. I think LL would get some good ones.

Sorry that I don't contribute to the topic, but there are little left for me to say

[Larissa]

Quote: from Sirion on 6:16 am on Mar. 3, 2003
We should create a hall of shame, with the most ignorant cappie posts ever posted on the board. I think LL would get some good ones.

Sorry that I don't contribute to the topic, but there are little left for me to sayI second that Sirion :wink:

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Sirion on 9:16 am on Mar. 3, 2003
We should create a hall of shame, with the most ignorant cappie posts ever posted on the board. I think LL would get some good ones.

Sorry that I don't contribute to the topic, but there are little left for me to say


Let's all congratulate Sirion on his ability to steal ideas from SN!!!

Now all you have to do is learn how to spell, use correct grammer and write posts that give some inclination that you know what the hell your'e talking about. You pus-sucking pinko-commie-sympathizin' draft-dodgin' airheaded fat zit-faced but-licking prick!!!

[Sirion]

My apologies Liberty Lover, I intended to add "Like Storming Moron" at the end, but started to read another post and forgot it...

My apologies once more if some grammar are incorrect, english is my second language, and I do not use it a lot (Also, my keyboard is a piece of junk). We could make an agreement: You help me with grammar, I help you to turn of your caps lock (You understand, you may run out of caps, th day you really needs them).

I would claim to know what I am talking abot in this topic (you've had quite some... What should I say... irresitably funny posts here, but that wasn't the intention, was it?)

Finally. It is likely that you have destroyed your creditability here already, but I say it anyway: Adding lots of exclamation marks and long lists of curses will not help you here. We are used to it, from cappies that run out of arguments.
Oh, sorry one last time, you did so a long time ago, I remember now!

(Edited by Sirion at 3:09 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)


(Edited by Sirion at 9:17 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)

[Pete]

"You pus-sucking pinko-commie-sympathizin' draft-dodgin' airheaded fat zit-faced but-licking prick!!!"

I am a pinko-commie. Not a smypathizer though. I am one. And damn proud. Draft dodging, oh you mean when the people run to Canada to avoid figthing in the rich man's war well he pays his son's way out of the military? Fuck equality if you want to be American. You seem to be the airhead. And the other comments just prove how little you mind holds, unable to bring up an agruement and instead resort to personal attacks and flaming. Grow up LibertyLover.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Sirion on 2:59 pm on Mar. 4, 2003
My apologies Liberty Lover, I intended to add "Like Storming Moron" at the end, but started to read another post and forgot it...

My apologies once more if some grammar are incorrect, english is my second language, and I do not use it a lot (Also, my keyboard is a piece of junk). We could make an agreement: You help me with grammar, I help you to turn of your caps lock (You understand, you may run out of caps, th day you really needs them).

I would claim to know what I am talking abot in this topic (you've had quite some... What should I say... irresitably funny posts here, but that wasn't the intention, was it?)

Finally. It is likely that you have destroyed your creditability here already, but I say it anyway: Adding lots of exclamation marks and long lists of curses will not help you here. We are used to it, from cappies that run out of arguments.
Oh, sorry one last time, you did so a long time ago, I remember now!

(Edited by Sirion at 3:09 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)


(Edited by Sirion at 9:17 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)


If it was the intention of this post to establish your stupidity then I can assure you that it was successful.

[Pete]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 10:58 pm on Mar. 4, 2003

Quote: from Sirion on 2:59 pm on Mar. 4, 2003
My apologies Liberty Lover, I intended to add "Like Storming Moron" at the end, but started to read another post and forgot it...

My apologies once more if some grammar are incorrect, english is my second language, and I do not use it a lot (Also, my keyboard is a piece of junk). We could make an agreement: You help me with grammar, I help you to turn of your caps lock (You understand, you may run out of caps, th day you really needs them).

I would claim to know what I am talking abot in this topic (you've had quite some... What should I say... irresitably funny posts here, but that wasn't the intention, was it?)

Finally. It is likely that you have destroyed your creditability here already, but I say it anyway: Adding lots of exclamation marks and long lists of curses will not help you here. We are used to it, from cappies that run out of arguments.
Oh, sorry one last time, you did so a long time ago, I remember now!

(Edited by Sirion at 3:09 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)


(Edited by Sirion at 9:17 pm on Mar. 4, 2003)


If it was the intention of this post to establish your stupidity then I can assure you that it was successful.

He was pointing out how oyu have reestablished your stupidity if you read it.

[Sirion]

Liberty Lover, I used some irony. Sorry, but I thought it would be easy to see wat was serious and not.

Now, what would be the greatest insult for you? If I posted the serious part of the post again, or if I leave it?

(Edited by Sirion at 3:20 pm on Mar. 5, 2003)

[IHP]

....still waiting Liberty Lover. One final request to answer me, or you will totally lose any sort of respect you might have held. Stop dodging and give me my evidence!

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

I have already posted these links...but since you were to lazy to open them here they are:

DIRECTORIO:

"Cuban law greatly limits freedom of expression, association and assembly. Anyone attempting to voice views, attend meetings, or form organizations that do not conform to government policy or state ideology is likely to be persecuted, the punishments ranging from harassment and loss of employment to imprisonment and beatings.

For this reason, in Cuba there are hundreds of which we know, probably many more of which we do not know, who are political prisoners and/or prisoners of conscience. Political prisoners are generally thought as individuals incarcerated for political reasons. Amnesty International defines prisoners of conscience specifically as "people who are imprisoned by reason of their political, religious, or other conscientiously held beliefs or by reason of their ethnic origin, sex, colour or language, provided they have not used or advocated violence" ("Cuba: Current prisoners of conscience must be released," AMR 25/36/99).

Cuban political prisoners and prisoners of conscience run the gamut of age, sex, and color. Some have been explicitly convicted for political reasons, such as "enemy propaganda" or "desacato," a vague legal term that can be translated as "contempt for authority." Others have been detained on fictional criminal charges to disguise the political motivations for their arrests.

The judicial system in Cuba has little in place to protect these individuals since lawyers are employed by the Cuban state and are often reluctant to question seriously the arguments put forth by prosecutors or the Department of State Security. Furthermore, lawyers are not always given adequate time to prepare a defense, or alternately, detainees are held for long periods of time without access to a lawyer and sometimes even pressured to sign incriminating documents. ("Cuba: Current prisoners of conscience must be released,"AMR 25/36/99)."

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL:

"Amnesty International is concerned that, according to reports, political prisoners Jorge Luis García Pérez (nicknamed "Antúnez"), Nestor Rodríguez Lobaina and Francisco Herodes Díaz Echemendía, were ill-treated in Combinado de Guantánamo Prison, Guantánamo Province, in September 1997. It is also concerned that they were being, and may still be, held in conditions that amount to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment.

According to reports, on 10 September 1997 over 30 prison guards at Combinado de Guantánamo Prison kicked and punched the three prisoners while they were handcuffed. Jorge Luis García Pérez was beaten on the face, neck, abdomen, ribs and back; Nestor Rodríguez Pérez was beaten around the face and ribs, as well as being kicked so hard in the stomach that it caused him to defecate; Francisco Díaz Echemendía suffered injuries to his left arm and was also beaten on the neck, ribs, back and face, causing his nose and lip to split open. On 15 September 1997 Jorge Luis García Pérez and Nestor Rodríguez Lobaina were reportedly beaten again.

As of mid-October, the three were reportedly being held in a punishment cell in the area of the prison known as "La Sola". These cells are said to be very small with no light and no furniture and just a small hole in the centre for the prisoners to urinate and defecate, and are often infested with rats, mice and cockroaches. The prisoners are usually not permitted to wear any clothing and are not given any bedding. The three men were also reportedly being deprived of medical treatment. On 24 October when Jorge Luis García's sister went to try to visit him at the prison, she was told by a State Security official that she could not do so because he was on a hunger strike. However, the official would not tell her on what date he had stopped eating. When she asked the official why her brother was being punished she was told that he had not been complying with prison discipline such as carrying out military honours or standing up straight when passed by the guards. She handed over to the prison authorities a copy of a letter dated 20 October which she had sent to the local and national military prosecutors about her brother's treatment.There is no further information about the conditions of the three prisoners or whether an investigation has been opened into the reports of ill-treatment.

In August 1997 the three prisoners reportedly set up a political prisoners' organization within the prison known as the Presidio Político Pedro Luis Boitel. It is believed that the beatings may have been inflicted, at least in part, in reprisal for having done so. The three have also reportedly participated in protests and breached prison discipline on several occasions in the past. While Amnesty International recognises that the prison authorities have a responsibility to maintain discipline and order in penal establishments and are entitled to establish appropriate rules and regulations, any measures taken to punish breaches of discipline should nevertheless conform to international standards including the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which Cuba ratified in 1995 (see below) and the UN Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, which states that:

Article 31:


Corporal punishment, punishment by placing in a dark cell, and all cruel, inhuman or degrading punishments shall be completely prohibited as punishments for disciplinary offences.

Article 32


(1): Punishment by close confinement or reduction of diet shall never be inflicted unless the medical officer has examined the prisoner and certified in writing that he is fit to sustain it.




(2): The same shall apply to any other punishment that may be prejudicial to the physical or mental health of a prisoner. In no case may such punishment be contrary to or depart from the principle stated in rule 31.




(3): The medical officer shall visit daily prisoners undergoing such punishments and shall advise the director if he considers the termination or alteration of the punishment necessary on grounds of physical or mental health.

Furthermore, no prisoner should be punished unless he has been informed of the offence alleged against him and given a proper opportunity to present his defence."

[IHP]

"directorio"? As in the democratic Cubans? You call that a credible, unbiased source? You must be digging deep Lover-boy.

The whole article cites no examples. It utilises vague idas such as simply: persecuted for political reasons. Ok theres a statement. Well, wheres the evidence? Where are some names of the subjects that this happened to? There is no such evidence contained with in that rediculous dogmatic clap-trap.

As for your Amnesty International "evidence." This only cites oan extremely documented small cases. Prison beatings don't happen in every single other jail in the world? Political or otherwise? What a joke.

Well, you brought up the jail stats, I seggest you look here: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/world...tion_rates.html (http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/highest_prison_population_rates.html)

and to further prove that, look here for a more indepth view of the land of the free: http://www.treasoninc.com/USAMostImprisoned.html

you'll see that Cuba isn't isn't even featured.
More nice comparisons between America and Cuba are their literacy and poverty. You can research that yourself, but I suggest you do, some things might come to light.

--IHP

[Liberty Lover]

Firstly I was talking about political prisoners. Secondly known prison rates in communist countries are always going to be low because of fear of harsh punishments and the limited supply of information that ruling communist parties let flow.

[Liberty Lover]

From a different perspective it would be fair of one to say that 99% of Cubans are prisoners...everyone but the party elite. What the average individual thinks (state run media) and does (assigned jobs) is controlled by the Cuban communist party. Castro has created his own little island prison.

[thursday night]

So much evidence to back that up?

[Pete]

"From a different perspective it would be fair of one to say that 99%" of Americans are prisoners"...everyone but the [corporate elite]. What the average individual thinks [(corporate media)] and does [(jobs based on appearance and experience (not abilitiy))] is controlled by the [large companies in America]. [Bush] has created his own little [continental] prison. "

That statement LL is so flimsy I easily flip it aroudn. I don't know enough about Australia to do it for you tho ;)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 2:42 pm on Mar. 8, 2003
"From a different perspective it would be fair of one to say that 99%" of Americans are prisoners"...everyone but the [corporate elite]. What the average individual thinks [(corporate media)] and does [(jobs based on appearance and experience (not abilitiy))] is controlled by the [large companies in America]. [Bush] has created his own little [continental] prison. "

That statement LL is so flimsy I easily flip it aroudn. I don't know enough about Australia to do it for you tho ;)

I haven't seen to many people fleeing capitalist countries to seek asylum in communist Cuba.

[Hate Your State]

Funny you should mention that Liberty Lover. My brother recently moved to Cuba after quitting his job. I also plan on leaving Canada for some time in Cuba, and you can bet I won't be traipsing through the tourism industry.

[Liberty Lover]

I would suggest that is a 'twisted truth'. But even so...it is illegal for Cuban's to leave their country without special permisson from the communist party yet thousands try.

[Hate Your State]

It's funny, but you have to look at this on a relative scale. The strike and protests in Venezuala were shown to be a massive movement of the dissatisfied people on CNN, when the only people protesting were the previoulsy privileged citizens. The working class loves Fidel, and they love Chavez. The word "thousands" means very little when you are looking at the comparative "millions" that dwell in the country.

[Pete]

"I would suggest that is a 'twisted truth'. But even so...it is illegal for Cuban's to leave their country without special permisson from the communist party yet thousands try. "

Provide proof for this Bull shit statement Liberty Lover. In America you need visa's to leave to go to Cuba. Canadians that do business in Cuba are barred from entering America. I plan to emigrate to Cuba.
My proof is Larissa. A primary source. SHe has lived in Cuba until her visa expired. Her husband is Cuban. He travells as he wishes. Liberty Lover, me and Larissa are not the ones who refuse to listen to reason. YOU ARE. First Hand experience on the Island compared to your Propagandic BULLSHIT.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 3:25 am on Mar. 9, 2003
Provide proof for this Bull shit statement Liberty Lover.

If you are referring to the thousands of Cuban refugee's then you need go no further for evidence than Miami.

[Liberty Lover]

Westerners don't really need to go to Cuba in order to experience communism. All you have to do is build yourself a shitty little house, work for a tenth of what you earn, do away with all your material possesions and not vote...simple.

Alas it is not so easy for people in communist countries who want to get a taste of capitalism and a whif of the sweet air of freedom.

[Pete]

The thousands of 'refugees'. The people who run from Mexico are illegal immigrants, yet cuban ppl are refugees. *Mumbles about double standards*

Ok thousands who left where the rich and elite. Che describes the 'flight of capital' the rich did not want to give up thier power for the poor. They fled out of selfishness, because they refused to take few steps down so the rest of the society could step up.

[Pete]

"Alas it is not so easy for people in communist countries who want to get a taste of capitalism and a whif of the sweet air of freedom. "

The freedom to be oppressed? The freedom to starve as there country looks to kill thousands of civilians? The freedom to be raped by corporate media?

[Pete]

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill"

Your signature. How nice. Misery is relative. Let me go get my note book and quote you a nice journalist.


...But at the end of the day the remark slipped out: "It's all very well but, when it comes down to it, these people are still terribly poor." Promptly, one of my companions stiffened: "no soms pobres, somos Tepitanos! (We are not poor people, we are tepitans.... - Wolfgang Sachs. From Edges, October 1992 (Essen, Germany: The Institue of Cultural Studies), 34-36.

If you can find the article read it. Because if you really believe that quote, this article will wake you up.

On another note, winston churchill rose to fame by order the Royal Army to fire on striking factory workers....(a massacre by the standards of america...except they where only striking workers)

(Edited by CrazyPete at 12:04 am on Mar. 9, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:55 am on Mar. 9, 2003
"Alas it is not so easy for people in communist countries who want to get a taste of capitalism and a whif of the sweet air of freedom. "

The freedom to be oppressed? The freedom to starve as there country looks to kill thousands of civilians? The freedom to be raped by corporate media?


I am not oppressed...I am happy.

I am not straved...I am eating a meat pie.

I am not being raped by corporate media...the Australian television media is either balanced or simply follows public opinion...which happens to be anti-war.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 5:02 am on Mar. 9, 2003
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill"

Your signature. How nice. Misery is relative. Let me go get my note book and quote you a nice journalist.


...But at the end of the day the remark slipped out: "It's all very well but, when it comes down to it, these people are still terribly poor." Promptly, one of my companions stiffened: "no soms pobres, somos Tepitanos! (We are not poor people, we are tepitans.... - Wolfgang Sachs. From Edges, October 1992 (Essen, Germany: The Institue of Cultural Studies), 34-36.

If you can find the article read it. Because if you really believe that quote, this article will wake you up.

On another note, winston churchill rose to fame by order the Royal Army to fire on striking factory workers....(a massacre by the standards of america...except they where only striking workers)

(Edited by CrazyPete at 12:04 am on Mar. 9, 2003)


I can understand why a socialist might not like Churchill. He represented everything wrong with that misserable ideaology.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill's term for a socialist state was also quite amusing..."Queutopia"...reffering of course to the massive lines to buy products. When my mum was in Russia she said she had to wait about half an hour to buy a loaf of bread.

Here's one you might like: "The Americans always do the right thing...once they have exhausted all the alternatives."

HERE'S TO WINSTON CHURCHILL...WHO STOOD ALONE AGAINST FACSISM AND RESTORED HIS PEOPLES FAITH IN DEMOCRACY!!!

[IHP]

I have found numeroud non-truths from your statements so far, but I will choose not to indulge. I would ask if you have researched what I asked you in my last post. I am not asking for a brief overview of country and its literacy, but an in-depth study of literacy and poverty in the US and Cuba, I suggest current population surveys are a good start. Perhaps you will then notice some inconsistencies in your arguments and why you are wrong.

--IHP

[Pete]

IHP - who is that directed to?

"I am not oppressed...I am happy.

I am not straved...I am eating a meat pie.

I am not being raped by corporate media...the Australian television media is either balanced or simply follows public opinion...which happens to be anti-war. "

You may not be, but what about the guy that is sitting on the corner begging for money? Or the nations with a military dictatorship telling them what to do.

The Judge of an Economic System should be how it treats its poor. If that is the case, then Capitalism is a bit better then some, but much worse then Socialism, which is the pillar of light that Capitalists should cling to for guidance if they hope to survive.

[Pete]

Think what you will of Churchill. It is a debate for another place.

[thursday night]

Liberty Lover, I am afraid that I have given evidence against all of your inane rhetoric. I have proven that Cubans vote, I have proven they are free, I have proven they have access to excellent social services and I have proven they have material possesions. This goes against everything you have said thus far.

[IHP]

CrazyPete,

I was talking to Liberty Lover. I chose to ignore his enormous simplifications, such as "I am eating a meat pie". Individualistic statements like are waste of time.

--IHP