Iran: Kurdish teachers protest against Farzad Kamangar's death sentence!(PLEASE READ)

[OI OI OI]

On Saturday 19 July around 300 Kurdish teachers protested against Farzad Kamangar's death sentence (http://www.marxist.com/iran-kurdish-teachers-death-sentence-confirmed.htm) . At the gathering in Sanandaj, in Iranian Kurdistan, the teachers read out a manifesto in defence of Farzad Kamangar, calling his death sentence unjust and demanding that the authorities revoke it and release him immediately.
Farzad Kamangar, a teacher, journalist and civil society activist was sentenced to death for alleged membership of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) in Turkey. This took place in a closed-door court hearing lasting less than five minutes!
The gathering in front of the Sanandaj prosecutor's office also included members of Farzad Kamangar's family. The protesters held portraits of Farzad Kamangar and placards with slogans like: "This kind and helpful teacher should not be sentenced to death", "Justice means freedom for Kamangar" and "We demand Farzad Kamangar's release". The 40 minute gathering ended peacefully.
Help us put pressure on the Iranian regime by sending a protest email (http://www.iwsn.org/campaigns/kamangar-letter-jul08.htm) to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President.
Iranian Workers' Solidarity Network (http://www.iwsn.org/)
30 July 2008







ADDED BY ME: IF YOU WANT FORWARD WIDELY IN YOUR ORGANIZATION AND PARTY.



THE MORE PRESSURE WE PUT ON IRAN THE BETTER CHANCES HE'S GOT.

[Led Zeppelin]

Don't worry people, the Islamic Republic is just building socialism over there, this is just part of the growing pains. :rolleyes:

[OI OI OI]

Don't worry people, the Islamic Republic is just building socialism over there, this is just part of the growing pains. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gifWeren't you the one claiming that the regime of Iran was progressive? (Which is not...)

[Led Zeppelin]

Weren't you the one claiming that the regime of Iran was progressive? (Which is not...)

No, I wasn't.

What the hell are you talking about?

I was arguing against that crap just recently in a lengthy thread on the matter: Link (http://www.revleft.com/vb/islamic-republic-iran-t84169/index.html)

Seriously, don't ascribe bullshit like that to me.

[Devrim]

Help us put pressure on the Iranian regime by sending a protest email (http://www.iwsn.org/campaigns/kamangar-letter-jul08.htm) to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President.

Do you think if I write a 'protest e-mail' to Ahmadinejad, they won't kill this guy?

Devrim

[OI OI OI]

No, I wasn't.

What the hell are you talking about?

I was arguing against that crap just recently in a lengthy thread on the matter: Link (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../islamic-republic-iran-t84169/index.html)

Seriously, don't ascribe bullshit like that to me.

Sorry man I just remember you arguing but I didn't remember on which side you were.:laugh:

Take it easy

[OI OI OI]

Do you think if I write a 'protest e-mail' to Ahmadinejad, they won't kill this guy?

Well international pressure is better than nothing....
I don't think he has many chances but we need to show solidarity.
Except if you have something better to propose.
The Iranian Workers Solidarity Network proposes sending the email....
It is not me that I propose it..

[Led Zeppelin]

Sorry man I just remember you arguing but I didn't remember on which side you were.http://www.revleft.com/vb/iran-kurdish-teachers-t85781/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

Take it easy

Sorry, but when someone implies that I consider a government which has been responsible for the deaths of my own family members to be progressive, I get a bit annoyed.

[Devrim]

Well international pressure is better than nothing....

I don't think that Ahmadinejad is going to feel that pressured by one of his secretaries reading my e-mail.


I don't think he has many chances but we need to show solidarity.

So what you are saying is that it will doing nothing, but we should pretend that we are doing something.


Except if you have something better to propose.

Yes, I propose that people stop deceiving themselves that these sort of things make a difference.


The Iranian Workers Solidarity Network proposes sending the email...

And?


It is not me that I propose it..

So why are you copying it?

Devrim

[LiberaCHE]

In my view the PKK represent the best potential for Marxism in an independent Kurdistan (which I also believe should exist), and should be supported by Marxists worldwide.

[Devrim]

In my view the PKK are a gang of anti-working class nationalists who have a long record of murdering workers.

Devrim

[LiberaCHE]

In my view the PKK are a gang of anti-working class nationalists who have a long record of murdering workers.

Devrim
Not surprising coming from a Turk.

The apartheid and oppression of Kurdish identity against Kurds (especially in Turkey) rivals anything in former South Africa or Palestine.

[Leo]

Not surprising coming from a Turk.What is implied here, really? Is your comment not a little bit racist?

Anyway, if it's gonna make a difference, I'm a Kurd, and I think that the PKK is a gang of anti-working class nationalists who have a long record of murdering workers as well, it is quite a well demonstrated fact. They against the Kurdish proletarait as well as the Turkish proletariat, they are as bad as the Turkish state.


The apartheid and oppression of Kurdish identity against Kurds (especially in Turkey) rivals anything in former South Africa or Palestine.Nationalism offers no solution to national oppression: only proletarian revolution can end national oppression.

[LiberaCHE]

What is implied here, really? Is your comment not a little bit racist
No. If a poster came on here and said he was from Alabama and that the Black Panthers were a bunch of "lazy, commie, negroes" - I would probably assume he is white --- or if a poster came on here from Israel and said that Fatah and Hamas were a bunch of "Pali loving terrorists", I would probably assume they were Jewish Israeli's etc etc etc

I grew up for a few years in Eastern Turkey, and saw first hand the extreme oppression of Kurds in that part of the country - I would imagine if you live in Turkey that you have seen it as well.




Anyway, if it's gonna make a difference, I'm a Kurd
Awesome ! Nice to meet you then. Do you speak Kurmanji or Soranî ? Also what city are you from and where do you live in Turkey now ? I personally loved Diyarbakir.

I noticed as well that you didn't dispute the apartheid I spoke of .... just that you don't favor the PKK's methods.

[black magick hustla]

oh c'mon, there is no "apartheid" in turkey. jesus you are ridicolous. its like saying there is apartheid in spain against people from pais vasco because nationalist murder gangs like ETA like to claim.

[bcbm]

No. If a poster came on here and said he was from Alabama and that the Black Panthers were a bunch of "lazy, commie, negroes" - I would probably assume he is white --- or if a poster came on here from Israel and said that Fatah and Hamas were a bunch of "Pali loving terrorists", I would probably assume they were Jewish Israeli's etc etc etc


Both of your hypothetical comments involve some form of racial slur and sound really ill-informed. Devrim's comment was neither and yes, your comment was a bit racist not to mention an ad hominem. One's location or nationality has no bearing on the accuracy of what they say.

[LiberaCHE]

oh c'mon, there is no "apartheid" in turkey. jesus you are ridicolous.

Hmm ... let's see. Up until recently the Kurdish language was outlawed. Now they are allowed 1 hour a day on the radio and TV. Kurdish colors when used in unison were banned and still are in some parts of the country (red, green, yellow) - Hell they even changed the Stop lights so as not to have those 3 colors. (crazy I know, but that's Kemalist Turkey). Turkey even renames animals that have Kurdish names as to deny they exist.

Turkey has denied even the existence of Kurds and calls them "Mountain Turks" while making up all of these elaborate myths of them being half-ape etc.

Turkey deploys a system of "village guards" and violently clamps down on any dissent of the Nationalist Pro-Turkish agenda. Turkey destroyed 2,000 Kurdish villages in the 90's and displaced about 200,000 Kurds in the South East of the country.

Leyla Zana a Kurdish female politician, was imprisoned for 15 years for speaking Kurdish (which was outlawed altogether until 1991) in the Turkish Parliament after taking her parliamentary oath. She was imprisoned again recently for 2 years in Turkey, for even mentioning the fact that Ocalan (fmr imprisoned PKK leader) was a leader that Kurds looked to.


etc etc etc

I could go all day.

Yeah ... nothing to see here. Move along. :rolleyes:


This is what the Marxist PKK are fighting against.

[black magick hustla]

Hmm ... let's see. Up until recently the Kurdish language was outlawed. Now they are allowed 1 hour a day on the radio and TV. Kurdish colors when used in unison were banned and still are in some parts of the country (red, green, yellow) - Hell they even changed the Stop lights so as not to have those 3 colors. (crazy I know, but that's Kemalist Turkey). Turkey even renames animals that have Kurdish names as to deny they exist.

Turkey has denied even the existence of Kurds and calls them "Mountain Turks" while making up all of these elaborate myths of them being half-ape etc.

Turkey deploys a system of "village guards" and violently clamps down on any dissent of the Nationalist Pro-Turkish agenda. Turkey destroyed 2,000 Kurdish villages in the 90's and displaced about 200,000 Kurds in the South East of the country.

Leyla Zana a Kurdish female politician, was imprisoned for 15 years for speaking Kurdish (which was outlawed altogether until 1991) in the Turkish Parliament after taking her parliamentary oath. She was imprisoned again recently for 2 years in Turkey, for even mentioning the fact that Ocalan (fmr imprisoned PKK leader) was a leader that Kurds looked to.


etc etc etc

I could go all day.

Yeah ... nothing to see here. Move along. :rolleyes:


This is what the Marxist PKK are fighting against.






I never said there the turkish state isn't chauvinist at all, but how is that apartheid? trying to clamp down on minority cultures has always been in the agenda of capitalist states - but apartheid implies that kurdish cannot live side to side with turks. from my understanding, nationalist turks see turkishness as not a question of race, but of culture. i.e. if you are a kurd but dig turkish culture you are ok in the eyes of nationalists.

apartheid means a very different thing. words like that lose their meaning when they are thrown around liberally.

[LiberaCHE]

Both of your hypothetical comments involve some form of racial slur.
To me a Kurd calling the PKK a "gang of murdering thugs" is a slur that I have NEVER heard a Kurd make, in the lengthy time I lived in Turkey.

It' so anathema to how I observed Kurds behaving towards the PKK, that I assumed he had to be a Turk to make it. (As it mirrors exactly the kind of rhetoric the Turks would say).

I still wonder what circumstances would lead him to say such a thing as a self identified "Kurd".

[LiberaCHE]

but apartheid implies that kurdish cannot live side to side with turks.


Kurds CAN'T live side by side with Turks as KURDS. In order to do so they have to deny who they are. To me that is Apartheid.

If one identified as a Kurd and exhibits their Kurdish identity (while living side by side with a Turk) they will be beaten, imprisoned, killed, labeled a "PkK Terrorist", etc.

It would be like saying that sure Jews could have lived side by side with Nazi Germans, if they just renounced or denied being Jewish.

[Leo]

No. If a poster came on here and said he was from Alabama and that the Black Panthers were a bunch of "lazy, commie, negroes"

Devrim did not say anything like that. He said that they are nationalist anti-working class gangsters, he was completely correct. He didn't say they were "separatist traitors to the fatherland" or anything.


I would imagine if you live in Turkey that you have seen it as well.

Yeah, I have some stories.


Awesome ! Nice to meet you then. Do you speak Kurmanji or Soranî ? Also what city are you from and where do you live in Turkey now ? I personally loved Diyarbakir.

I am from Zercil though I've never been there and I live in Ankara. I know a few Kurmanci words (Devrim knows a bit more than I do actually). I don't think it is right for ones politics to be judged according to their ethnic background.


I noticed as well that you didn't dispute the apartheid I spoke of ....

There clearly is national oppression, it used to be much worse but is a bit calmer at the moment, speaking Kurdish or listening to Kurdish music etc. are not legally banned. Obviously national oppression is the sort of disease of which only the proletariat can cure through it's unity. Anyway, I wouldn't call it an "apartheid", it's a very different situation than in South Africa. Pretty grim things did happen here though.


.... just that you don't favor the PKK's methods.

It's not just their methods, I don't favor their nationalist ideology and goals as well. According to their ideology, they are working for the formation of a new bourgeois-state. I don't even see this to be a solution to national oppression. I call for the world revolution, and the destruction of all bourgeois states, including the Turkish state, in the hands of the proletarait. I see those goals to be contradicting each other, quite clearly.

[bcbm]

To me a Kurd calling the PKK a "gang of murdering thugs" is a slur that I have NEVER heard a Kurd make, in the lengthy time I lived in Turkey.

It' so anathema to how I observed Kurds behaving towards the PKK, that I assumed he had to be a Turk to make it. (As it mirrors exactly the kind of rhetoric the Turks would say).

I still wonder what circumstances would lead him to say such a thing as a self identified "Kurd".

Leo identified himself as a Kurd, not Devrim. I don't know what ethnicity Devrim would claim.

Either way, you didn't challenge what was actually being said.

[LiberaCHE]

Noam Chomsky on the PKK

AEb-TczQPhQ

[LiberaCHE]

Leo identified himself as a Kurd, not Devrim. I don't know what ethnicity Devrim would claim.

Either way, you didn't challenge what was actually being said.

Oh, well they both have the same logo picture in the top left hand corner and I am not familiar enough with the posters here to notice.

[black magick hustla]

Kurds CAN'T live side by side with Turks as KURDS. In order to do so they have to deny who they are. To me that is Apartheid.

If one identified as a Kurd and exhibits their Kurdish identity (while living side by side with a Turk) they will be beaten, imprisoned, killed, labeled a "PkK Terrorist", etc.

It would be like saying that sure Jews could have lived side by side with Nazi Germans, if they just renounced or denied being Jewish.

well, from my understanding, nazis identified jewishness as a race, not just a religion.

i dont think its as horrible as "if you identifiy as a kurd" youll get beaten and imprisoned. i dont live in turkey, and i read about some pretty bad stories, but i think today its calmer. probably its not a good idea to raise a kurdish flag in a big rally in a city like istambul or ankara though.....

still its not apartheid. apartheid is a very different thing.

why are you so worried about national identity and identifying as a certain minority though? I am not saying that it is good to clamp on people like that, but I always wondered why leftists bothered so much about identifying themselves as a certain race, while in reality the worker has no country.

anyway, the point is that nationalist armed groups aren't the answer to this kind of problems.

[Devrim]

Not surprising coming from a Turk.

I am not an ethnic Turk (nor am I a Kurd. My wife is though). There may be some confusion as two people on this thread have the same Avatar. Leo is a Kurd.


Hmm ... let's see. Up until recently the Kurdish language was outlawed. Now they are allowed 1 hour a day on the radio and TV...

All of the things in this list were true. It has changed a lot in the last ten years though. I am not saying this in anyway to excuse the system, simply to give people a bit of perspective. Ten years ago, people would not casual mention that they were Kurds. Now they do.


from my understanding, nationalist turks see turkishness as not a question of race, but of culture. i.e. if you are a kurd but dig turkish culture you are ok in the eyes of nationalists.

This is also true.


If one identified as a Kurd and exhibits their Kurdish identity (while living side by side with a Turk) they will be beaten, imprisoned, killed, labeled a "PkK Terrorist", etc.

This is a bit exaggerated.


To me a Kurd calling the PKK a "gang of murdering thugs" is a slur that I have NEVER heard a Kurd make, in the lengthy time I lived in Turkey.

This surprises me. It is almost unbelievable.

As for them being murdering thugs. If you had lived in Turkey, you would remember the campaign of murdering teachers, a bit ironic given the subject of this thread, and if you had been involved in the left, you would know about them shooting members of left groups they didn't approve of in their areas.

Devrim

[Leo]

Now they are allowed 1 hour a day on the radio and TV.Actually there are some Kurdish channels on the satellite, though not authorized obviously by state laws.


Turkey deploys a system of "village guards" You know "village guards" are Kurds as well, don't you?


Turkey destroyed 2,000 Kurdish villages in the 90's and displaced about 200,000 Kurds in the South East of the country. I'd call that a joint responsibility of the Turkish state and the PKK, really.


This is what the Marxist PKK are fighting against. First of all the PKK is not Marxist. In our opinion, they never were, but they more or less immediately after the collapse of the Russian block, denounced it themselves as well.

Secondly, this is not what the PKK is fighting for, really. They are quite a dark organization, that is heavily infiltrated by the Turkish intelligence, that has suspicious connections to officers in the Turkish army with whom it is well known that they unofficially constantly negotiate with, are supported by bigger imperialist powers, one of which being the US in Iran. They are fighting with the Turkish state over the control of the drug route passing from Turkey. They are fundamentally the armed forces of a certain faction of the Kurdish bourgeoisie, and are in the end not different in their function from the Turkish Army.


To me a Kurd calling the PKK a "gang of murdering thugs" is a slur that I have NEVER heard a Kurd make, in the lengthy time I lived in Turkey. How long did you stay here?


Kurds CAN'T live side by side with Turks as KURDS.They can and do to be honest. I don't know how much they talk about politics, but I do remember my mother talking with some of our neighbors quite openly for example.


If one identified as a Kurd and exhibits their Kurdish identity (while living side by side with a Turk) they will be beaten, imprisoned, killed, labeled a "PkK Terrorist", etc.That is exaggerated. "Spontaneous" social reactions do occasionally happen, but they aren't that common. I have never heard of anything similar to what you said happening.


Oh, well they both have the same logo picture in the top left hand cornerYeah, that's cause we're from the same organization.

[LiberaCHE]

There may be some confusion as two people on this thread have the same Avatar.
Yeah I realized that, after the fact. You guys are like twins that wear the same outfits to school. :confused:






All of the things in this list were true. It has changed a lot in the last ten years though.
It seems that you and your fellow Comrade, need to have a talk, as you acknowledge things that he does not.





This surprises me. It is almost unbelievable.
It could have been the time frame of when I was there (88-92) (97-98), or perhaps the geographical location. It seems to me that neither of you live or have lived in far Eastern Turkey. Van, Diyabakir, Batman, Kurtalan, Mardin etc.

They have a different view on the situation obviously than Kurds that have been relocated to Istanbul, Ankara etc. (and those I would say have been fed propaganda by the Turkish govt).






You know "village guards" are Kurds as well, don't you?
Of course. It is very easy to find traitors in any group if you pay them enough. Also many Kurds take on the job, because if they do not, they are labeled PKK.






First of all the PKK is not Marxist. In our opinion, they never were.
Well I would hope you would realize your opinion is not the sole authority on the matter. They study and learn Marxism, Che Guevara is one of their inspirational figures, they identify themselves with the Red Star, and they espouse Marxist ideals.

[LiberaCHE]

I am not an ethnic Turk (nor am I a Kurd. My wife is though)
And what is her view on an independent Kurdish state ?

[Devrim]

It seems that you and your fellow Comrade, need to have a talk, as you acknowledge things that he does not.

I only skimmed it. On looking through it in detail I would question these:


Kurdish colors when used in unison were banned and still are in some parts of the country (red, green, yellow) - Hell they even changed the Stop lights so as not to have those 3 colors. (crazy I know, but that's Kemalist Turkey). Turkey even renames animals that have Kurdish names as to deny they exist.

What does banned mean here? There were some ridiculous things with colours. The lights isn't true, and the bit about the animals obviously isn't. The political stuff was.


Well I would hope you would realize your opinion is not the sole authority on the matter. They study and learn Marxism, Che Guevara is one of their inspirational figures, they identify themselves with the Red Star, and they espouse Marxist ideals.

No he said it is our opinion. The PKK no longer claims to be Marxist though (nor is it actually called the PKK anymore). Read their own stuff.


It seems to me that neither of you live or have lived in far Eastern Turkey. Van, Diyabakir, Batman, Kurtalan, Mardin etc.

No, I haven't. I have been to all of those places with the exception of Kurtalan though (It is a small town in the middle of nowhere).


And what is her view on an independent Kurdish state ?

She isn't in favour of it.

Devrim

[Leo]

It could have been the time frame of when I was there (88-92) (97-98), or perhaps the geographical location. It seems to me that neither of you live or have lived in far Eastern Turkey. Van, Diyabakir, Batman, Kurtalan, Mardin etc.

I have met lots of people who live there though, since I have hundreds of relatives there (Even as I am writing writing this post, one is staying at our house).


They have a different view on the situation obviously than Kurds that have been relocated to Istanbul, Ankara etc. (and those I would say have been fed propaganda by the Turkish govt).

Generally (and there obviously are exceptions), my relatives who live in the region are much less sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism than those living in the big cities actually.


Of course. It is very easy to find traitors in any group if you pay them enough. Also many Kurds take on the job, because if they do not, they are labeled PKK.

Well, basically the PKK and the state sort of managed to divide the landlords into groups supporting them. The "village guards" are basically those who join for numerous reasons, but the bulk of them come from the strength of landlords who did not align themselves with the PKK.


Well I would hope you would realize your opinion is not the sole authority on the matter.

Yeah, but that's not about them but due to the fact that we don't consider Stalinism to be marxism.

Anyway, they rejected what they called "Marxism" as well.


They study and learn Marxism

Some of them might read Marx, but again as an organization they rejected their "Marxism".


Che Guevara is one of their inspirational figures

Yeah probably. So is Nelson Mandela, for example.

Your point being?


they identify themselves with the Red Star

So does the state of California.


and they espouse Marxist ideals.

Well, no, not today, they don't. They don't even have a "Marxist rhetoric" anymore.

[LiberaCHE]

The lights isn't true

"the green traffic lights in some cities were changed to blue because the red, yellow, green sequence was judged offensive."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/low_b/c_right_5.shtml


"People who follow Turkey closely know that traffic lights, which happen to have the same combination of colors, have gone through transformations in Turkish Kurdistan. The green has become blue."
http://www.kurdistan.org/Current-Updates/discomfort012504.html


"Batman and Van, the color green in traffic lights was for a time replaced with the color blue."
http://www.kurdistan.nu/english/eng_situ_racism.htm



etc etc etc




the bit about the animals

"Turkey has said it is changing the names of three animals found on its territory to remove references to Kurdistan or Armenia."
"The ministry said the old names were contrary to Turkish unity."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm





(nor is it actually called the PKK anymore). Read their own stuff.
Yes they have branched off into KADEK, Kongra-Gel, and KGK ... but they also still use PKK (which for all intents and purposes, is how they are known outside of Turkey).





She isn't in favour of it.
Care to elaborate more ? As I am interested.

[Leo]

Batman and Van, the color green in traffic lights was for a time replaced with the color blue.

I think if it happened it only happened there, but I think it's more likely that a few governors ordered the green in a few lights to be changed. I don't think it was something generally applied.


"Turkey has said it is changing the names of three animals found on its territory to remove references to Kurdistan or Armenia."
"The ministry said the old names were contrary to Turkish unity."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm)

Yeah, I think I have heard that they did actually change the latin name of a certain fox and another animal, they did not change the common name of any animal though.

[LiberaCHE]

(Even as I am writing writing this post, one is staying at our house).
Neat. Do me a favor and ask him for his thoughts on present day Kurdish rights in South East Turkey ?





my relatives who live in the region are much less sympathetic to Kurdish nationalism
And why is that, if you don't mind me asking ?





due to the fact that we don't consider Stalinism to be marxism.
Well, as an "Anti-Revisionist" I would obviously disagree.

Ironically, Marxism seems to now be "in the eye of the beholder"





as an organization they rejected their "Marxism".
Link ? Proof ?

[Devrim]

Yes they have branched off into KADEK, Kongra-Gel, and KGK ... but they also still use PKK (which for all intents and purposes, is how they are known outside of Turkey).
But there not Marxists.


Care to elaborate more ? As I am interested.

There is not a lot to say really. The majority of Kurds don't support the PKK (compare election results for DTP, which has more support than the actually PKK, to the percentage of the population that is Kurdish). My wife is one of them.

The animal thing didn't actually happen in the end, and I am still a bit dubious about the lights. It could have happened, but in very limited areas for very short periods.

Devrim

[Leo]

Neat. Do me a favor and ask him for his thoughts on present day Kurdish rights in South East Turkey ?

Well, she is nine years old so...


Link ? Proof ?

It's quite common knowledge which you will encounter at a basic Google search:


Following the collapse of the USSR, the PKK largely abandoned its communist roots, attempting to better accommodate nationalistic views and Islamic beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers_Party


The PKK started as a Marxist-Leninist group demanding an independent homeland, but shed socialist ideology with the end of the Cold War and says it seeks some degree of self rule, similar to that of Spain's semiautonomous Catalonia region.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080225/turkey_kurds_080225?s_name=&no_ads=