Alcohol

[Pogue]

I'm in a debate with a mate. He thinks alcohol should be made illegal because of all the harm it does - violence, drinking driving, etc.

I've put forward the points that you can't punish everyone with a ban for some peoples mistakes, and that some people can stay in control after drinking, and that if made illegal alcohol goes underground and thus becomes more dangerous.

But he put one forward thats always got me - Alcohol related injuries use up NHS resources/time.

Whats the response to this? He's basically saying:

Alcohol should be banned because when people get injured from alcohol related causes (drunk driving crash, fights, etc), the NHS has to deal with the problems, causing a big strain, which costs money/lives.

[Vendetta]

Well, I personally loved the huge increase of gang and organized crime activity during the Prohibition-era. :laugh:

[Chapaev]

Alcohol interferes with normal social production. Drinking even small quantities of alcohol causes a significant decline in the productivity of a skilled worker. The direct action of alcohol on the brain leads to excitement, aggressiveness, and the loss of inhibition of base desires, which cause crimes, particularly rape and hooliganism. Conditions are created that lead to a breakdown of family because of personality changes, marital infidelity, and financial difficulties. Immorality in the family and the narrow range of interests results in a loss of respect for parents and moral and intellectual impoverishment among adolescents; this can lead to sexual promiscuity, crime, and an unwillingness to study or participate in the national economy.

Drinking is accompanied by a weakening of restraining influences, loss of the sense of shame, and loss of the ability to appraise realistically the consequences of one’s acts. It can lead to casual sexual relations, which often result in venereal disease.

Alcohol has toxic effects on the brain, liver, heart, and other internal organs. Alcohol lowers the body’s resistance to toxic and infectious agents and is a frequent cause of accidents, at work and elsewhere. Mortality from somatic diseases is three to five times higher among those who drink alcohol than it is among those who abstain from alcohol beverages. Alcohol has been found to be toxic to the genetic apparatus: the physical and mental development of children of drinkers is slowed, and the children will suffer from developmental anomalies.

[Pogue]

Nevermind, I sort of answered it myself!

[politics student]

I consider it the same as drugs people need to learn personal responsibilities rather than bans.

[Demogorgon]

The notion that alcohol is bad because it uses up NHS time does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny. Tax on alcohol is so high that it more than pays for the cost to the NHS.

Incidentally, would I be a million miles from the truth if I were to guess that your friend is not yet old enough to legally drink? Alot of people hold these views until they turn eighteen.

[Comrade B]

Alcohol should be banned because when people get injured from alcohol related causes (drunk driving crash, fights, etc)
The last time the US tried to make alcohol illegal, it lead to, as said before, a massive wave of crime. You cannot stop people from drinking. I personally, love alcohol. I am a happy drunk. I have never driven, even if I feel fully sober, after having more than a half of a beer. I have never gotten in a fight while drunk. I have never done anything I severely regret while drunk.

Incidentally, would I be a million miles from the truth if I were to guess that your friend is not yet old enough to legally drink? Alot of people hold these views until they turn eighteen.
In the US, we have to be 21 to drink. I am 17. No one listens to the law already.

The direct action of alcohol on the brain leads to excitement
No big problem with excitement in my mind. Being bored is a negative thing, and in a situation where there is nothing to do, alcohol can pass the time quite well.

aggressiveness
It depends on who the person is. People often become edgy from listening to loud music due to the adrenaline stimulation, should we ban that also? I know people that become EXTREMELY aggressive while driving. I personally was followed by a crazed redneck for 15 minutes until I pulled out a rather large knife and held it in sight of the rear window. I really do not suggest banning vehicles due to some people being too angry to handle driving.

and the loss of inhibition of base desires, which cause crimes, particularly rape
Rape? I don't know about you buddy, but I think if you are going to rape someone, in any circumstances, you are fucked up already, even sober.

and hooliganism.
One mans definition is hooliganism is another mans definition of smiling.

It can lead to casual sexual relations, which often result in venereal disease.
Pretty weak argument there. People are going to fuck people they don't know even with out alcohol. Horny people will be horny people no matter what.

Alcohol has toxic effects on the brain, liver, heart, and other internal organs.
Television is also bad for people. So are greasy foods. Smoking is terrible for people. Coffee is bad for people. Sugar is bad for people. A lot of stuff has a pretty terrible effect on human beings.

Humans also have the right to choose the risks they take. I will not annoy the shit out of my smoker friends (about 90% of them), no matter how stupid I think smoking is. If they have no problem with the negative effects on themselves, then I dont have a problem with it either. I may occasionally complain about their support for certain companies, but I wont criticize them for choosing to smoke. I do not have the right to choose for my friends.

[Chapter 24]

People should be allowed to consume alcohol. If it is banned or "rationed" then what else is going to take place but the creation of an untrustworthy, unregulated black market?

[Winter]

I think the problem with acloholism would be solved if Socialism came into play. Why do people become alcoholics? To get away from economic and social problems. What does Socialism do? Decrease and eventually wipes away these economic and social problems. Like many have already said, a forceful ban leads to criminal activities, this is well documented with the failed U.S. war on drugs.

[AnthArmo]

Perhaps the solution lies in the controlling the economy, not the personal lives of people. Jesse Jackson suggested that drugs be tackled through the "supply" end of things rather than the "demand" end. If the Government reduced the amount of alcohol and drugs that were produced and imported, The price would eventually go up and people would be dis-encouraged from drinking. It's a heck of a lot better than invading the personal lives of other people and telling them what to do.

[Led Zeppelin]

This belongs in Sciences and Environment if not Chit-Chat.

Moved to S & E.

[Holden Caulfield]

people should have freedom to regulate themselves in normal circumstances, if a problem occurs with that person that person should have help given to them to find the cause of the problem not the symptoms, in this case excessive alcohol consumption

[Faction2008]

H-L-V-S I agree with you. If you can drink responsibly like every advert insists you do then there is no need to ban if there are people who can intake it without killing someone.

[Pogue]

The notion that alcohol is bad because it uses up NHS time does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny. Tax on alcohol is so high that it more than pays for the cost to the NHS.

Incidentally, would I be a million miles from the truth if I were to guess that your friend is not yet old enough to legally drink? Alot of people hold these views until they turn eighteen.

Bang on mate! Thats so true!

[Trystan]

The notion that alcohol is bad because it uses up NHS time does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny. Tax on alcohol is so high that it more than pays for the cost to the NHS.

Incidentally, would I be a million miles from the truth if I were to guess that your friend is not yet old enough to legally drink? Alot of people hold these views until they turn eighteen.

Agreed. It's the same with cigarettes, and the NHS doctors want to refuse smokers treatment. Where the fuck do they think their salaries come from, and who do they think pays for the hospitals? Ugh . . .

[politics student]

Agreed. It's the same with cigarettes, and the NHS doctors want to refuse smokers treatment. Where the fuck do they think their salaries come from, and who do they think pays for the hospitals? Ugh . . .

ummm its not the doctors who want to refuse treatment, its the government who want to cut funds to the NHS by cutting costs.

Under the torie government I would not be shocked if they aim to try to privatize it.

[Holden Caulfield]

Under the torie government I would not be shocked if they aim to try to privatize it.


they might sly-ly massacre it with endless changes and 'reforms' but they will not have the balls or support to outright abandon the NHS

[Trystan]

Under the torie government I would not be shocked if they aim to try to privatize it.

That's assuming that they get elected. Don't be so pessimistic. ;)

[bcbm]

Whats the response to this? He's basically saying:

Alcohol should be banned because when people get injured from alcohol related causes (drunk driving crash, fights, etc), the NHS has to deal with the problems, causing a big strain, which costs money/lives.

I'd wager there are more work related injuries than drinking related ones. How about we ban work instead? I think it would lead to less drunk driving and fighting. Or not, but at least the resources to deal with it would exist.

----

Now on to the boring puritan...


Alcohol interferes with normal social production. Drinking even small quantities of alcohol causes a significant decline in the productivity of a skilled worker.

So what? Productivity isn't everything; we should be more concerned with getting as much pleasure for as many people as we can, not churning out mountains of crap. Alcohol helps that.

And I'd like to see your source anyway.


The direct action of alcohol on the brain leads to excitement, aggressiveness, and the loss of inhibition of base desires, which cause crimes, particularly rape and hooliganism.

I don't think either of those crimes is significantly connected to alcohol and their source certainly isn't drinking- its symptomatic of larger societal issues that getting rid of booze won't solve. And hooliganism is fun.


Conditions are created that lead to a breakdown of family because of personality changes, marital infidelity, and financial difficulties.

Maybe if you're a complete alcoholic. Why take the most extreme possible consequences of something and try to make them sound common? Most drinking isn't problematic, its casual and social. Hell, its even possible to manage some level of normality while being an alcoholic- I get along fine.


Immorality in the family and the narrow range of interests results in a loss of respect for parents and moral and intellectual impoverishment among adolescents;

What exactly are you basing these morals around? Sounds like something close to the same system as the Baptists. :rolleyes:


this can lead to sexual promiscuity, crime, and an unwillingness to study or participate in the national economy.

:thumbup:


Drinking is accompanied by a weakening of restraining influences, loss of the sense of shame, and loss of the ability to appraise realistically the consequences of one’s acts. It can lead to casual sexual relations, which often result in venereal disease.

Often? Source on that one please. And while STI's may be more common among the sexually casual, they generally aren't really a big deal anyway. They're treatable or curable.

And casual sex is fucking awesome.


Alcohol has toxic effects on the brain, liver, heart, and other internal organs. Alcohol lowers the body’s resistance to toxic and infectious agents and is a frequent cause of accidents, at work and elsewhere. Mortality from somatic diseases is three to five times higher among those who drink alcohol than it is among those who abstain from alcohol beverages. Alcohol has been found to be toxic to the genetic apparatus: the physical and mental development of children of drinkers is slowed, and the children will suffer from developmental anomalies.

If you're responsible you can take care of yourself just fine. Drinking some alcohol can even be healthier for you. The problem is with personal responsibility, not alcohol. Just because some people lack it (again, symptomatic of larger social issues) doesn't make alcohol bad.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm in a debate with a mate. He thinks alcohol should be made illegal because of all the harm it does - violence, drinking driving, etc.

What evidence does he have that the harm resulting from having alcohol widely and cheaply available is greater than the harm caused by prohibiting it?


I've put forward the points that you can't punish everyone with a ban for some peoples mistakes, and that some people can stay in control after drinking, and that if made illegal alcohol goes underground and thus becomes more dangerous.This alone should be reason enough to keep alcohol legal.


But he put one forward thats always got me - Alcohol related injuries use up NHS resources/time.

Whats the response to this? He's basically saying:

Alcohol should be banned because when people get injured from alcohol related causes (drunk driving crash, fights, etc), the NHS has to deal with the problems, causing a big strain, which costs money/lives.It's a myth that the NHS is underfunded. The NHS gets more than enough money to do its job, but that money is continually wasted.

So instead of taking it out on those who like to drink or take drugs, why not attack those who insist on strangling the NHS?


Alcohol interferes with normal social production.

"Normal social production", whatever that's supposed to mean, involves the production and consumption of alcohol.


Drinking even small quantities of alcohol causes a significant decline in the productivity of a skilled worker.It's a good thing most "skilled workers" don't drink on the job then, isn't it?

What part of "leisure time" do you not understand, neo-puritan?


The direct action of alcohol on the brain leads to excitement, aggressiveness, and the loss of inhibition of base desires, which cause crimes, particularly rape and hooliganism.Simplistic. Alcohol consumption may increase the likelyhood of criminal activity in a small number of individuals, but the vast majority of alcohol drinkers do so without hurting anyone else.


Conditions are created that lead to a breakdown of family because of personality changes, marital infidelity, and financial difficulties.All of which are reactions to the drinker's habit, not caused by the alcohol itself.

Which also ignores the fact that the majority of alcohol drinkers aren't hopeless drunks with no money and broken marriages and families.


Immorality in the family and the narrow range of interests results in a loss of respect for parents and moral and intellectual impoverishment among adolescents; this can lead to sexual promiscuity, crime, and an unwillingness to study or participate in the national economy.This paragraph sounds like it was lifted straight from Christian Voice - are you sure you're a lefty?


Drinking is accompanied by a weakening of restraining influences, loss of the sense of shame, and loss of the ability to appraise realistically the consequences of one’s acts.Which does not always end in disaster. Good grief.


It can lead to casual sexual relations, which often result in venereal disease.What century are you from? Ain't you heard of condoms?


Alcohol has toxic effects on the brain, liver, heart, and other internal organs.Alcohol is not immediately toxic. All that is required is that potential alcohol consumers should be aware of this fact.

It's this little thing called "informed consent". Most adults of average intelligence can grasp the concept. With the exception of you, it seems.


Alcohol lowers the body’s resistance to toxic and infectious agents and is a frequent cause of accidents, at work and elsewhere.The second part of your sentence does not follow from the first.

If alcohol does indeed affect the immune system, then the decision to consume alcohol affects only that person, and so therefore it is not your decision to make!

It's common fucking sense not to drink when driving or handling heavy machinery. You don't need to ban alcohol.


Mortality from somatic diseases is three to five times higher among those who drink alcohol than it is among those who abstain from alcohol beverages.Obviously some people prefer having a good time now than living to 90 years of age, dribbling food down one's bib in some shitty nursing home.

Once again, that's not your decision to make!


Alcohol has been found to be toxic to the genetic apparatus: the physical and mental development of children of drinkers is slowed, and the children will suffer from developmental anomalies.Pregnant women ideally should not drink, that is true - but just what has that got to do with prohibiting alcohol wholesale?

[Comrade B]

Immorality in the family and the narrow range of interests results in a loss of respect for parents and moral and intellectual impoverishment among adolescents;
I would like to add to this, I am a kiddie who has been regularly accused of alcoholism by friends. I am not an alcoholic, might I add, but that is not the point. I recently received my grades for my Junior year, showing that I received a number of As, including in a few of my advanced placement classes, and I passed all of my AP exams. They only thing that could possibly link alcohol and lower grades is that when kids can get alcohol, they have something to do other than work.

[bcbm]

I started drinking, then quit school and my job... oh shit, he's right!

[black magick hustla]

americans dont know how to drink. when i was in mexico, i already bar hopped when i was 16.

shame on your country black coffee black metal.

[bcbm]

IM SORRRRRY!!! :crying:

[Comrade B]

Could I add to this, the dangers of illegal drinking. My friends and I have had multiple exploits in the search of alcohol/ a place to drink which have been extremely dangerous, from jumping fences on highway bridges, hiding in a ditch with poisonous snakes in it, and sneaking through multiple yards in search of a safe spot. Meanwhile all you lucky non-US-Americans can just sit back in a bar and enjoy yourselves after 16/18.

[apathy maybe]

I think we should ban cars. They are so dangerous. They waste money because of all the accidents, the NHS can't cope!

Not to mention that they are polluting as hell.

"1.2 million people are killed on roads every year and up to 50 million more are injured. "1

This is just crazy. BAN CARS NOW!


1 http://www.who.int/features/2004/road_safety/en/

[MarxSchmarx]

My liver, my choice.

[bobroberts]

No drug should be banned.

[XII Bones IIX]

No drug should be banned.
ditto. the government shouldn't have any rule over what you want to pollute your body with. but if they were to outlaw alcohol again i'd like to see how we'd work through it.

[Sentinel]

Both drinking and smoking have in practice proven to be impossible to ban. Like others have said, such attempts have invariably lead to a huge wave of criminal activity in society, and also caused otherwise law abiding citizens to start socialising with criminals (the dealers).

This is precisely why cannabis should be legal as well -- how many kids wouldn't have gotten into criminality had they not been forced to hang out with petty gangsters in order to get a simple joint..

[XII Bones IIX]

Everything should be legalized. Look at Canada and every other nation that has legalized narcotics of any type. Usually they're better off than the rest of the world. Except for Africa, they just kinda got fucked all around.

[Vallegrande]

Kombucha is a health drink. It contains about .5% alcohol?

[Led Zeppelin]

No Marxist should support banning alcohol, that would be pretty much political suicide.

Besides, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, etc. etc. all drank some in their day. :D

[Holden Caulfield]

didn't Karl Marx's father push him to leave Bonn university for being such a party animal, alco?

or have a made this up...:confused:

[peterpanne]

Alcoholism makes your manpower unexploitable!

[Oneironaut]

I think the problem with acloholism would be solved if Socialism came into play. Why do people become alcoholics? To get away from economic and social problems. What does Socialism do? Decrease and eventually wipes away these economic and social problems. Like many have already said, a forceful ban leads to criminal activities, this is well documented with the failed U.S. war on drugs.

I agree with this entirely. I also feel like marijuana will substitute popular alcohol use when Socialism takes hold. IMO marijuana is significantly more conducive to us and enables us to emancipate our species powers, at least while we are high.

[Oneironaut]

Everything should be legalized. Look at Canada and every other nation that has legalized narcotics of any type. Usually they're better off than the rest of the world. Except for Africa, they just kinda got fucked all around.

At this point in human development, everything could not be legalized. We live in a society where we abuse substances. Drug use would literally skyrocket without government regulation and we would become illusioned of the shit hole that we all trudge in. I don't mean to say I don't think some drugs should be legalized (marijuana in particular) but as far as if "death drugs" were legal, I think we would lose many good comrades to abuse.

[Jazzratt]

At this point in human development, everything could not be legalized. We live in a society where we abuse substances. Drug use would literally skyrocket without government regulation and we would become illusioned of the shit hole that we all trudge in. I don't mean to say I don't think some drugs should be legalized (marijuana in particular) but as far as if "death drugs" were legal, I think we would lose many good comrades to abuse.

Alcohol is a hard drug. Although the addiction rate isn't as high as, say, nicotine or cocaine, it has an incredibly bad withdrawal. Though it isn't as easy to overdose on it as, say, smack the OD is still quite easy and deadly, it causes a lot of health problems and it's very likely to endanger the user. Yet, as a legal drug, it is seen as fairly harmless and, for the vast majority of users, is. I would think that all other drugs, including "death drugs", would be much the same.

Also, is a person that dies at 40 thanks to smoking a "comrade lost to abuse"?

[Pogue]

Bang on mate! Thats so true!

By this I meant the second bit by the way, not the first bit, I think that that part isnt true.

[spice756]

Alcohol is bad just like smoking pot.They both effect your memory and effect your learning.

So it very hard to learn things .Processing information is hard.

But banning it does not work like the war on drugs or when alcohol was illegal.