dual currency socialist system

[danyboy27]

i got an idea about a new system (or perhaps someone else had the idea).

a system where there is 2 distinct types of currency; life currency and pleasure currency.

in that socialist society most of people would be paid the same life currency wage, a wage determined by how much a individual or a family need to confortably live (food,housing etc).

but, the pleasure currency would vary from the type of job you do, some would get more of it, some get less. this currency could be used to purchase luxury good such has fast car, luxury furniture, painting etc.

a avreage citizen that earn less pleasure currency than for a exemple, a medic , can earn extra pleasure currency by participating to social programs (house building, teaching a new language to some folks etc.). this way, everybody get happy, and the whole society would benefit of it.

in order to have extra luxury you would have to do more for your society.

pleasure currency can ONLY buy luxury goods, live currency would be equally distributed inside society.

this would build a socialist society, and would give something to the citizen so far most socialist regimes failed to deliver: positive incitative measure.

[Winter]

That's a very interesting concept. Of course this would only work in the early to mid stages of Socialism, but it would get the point across that acting for society is far more beneficial to everybody than just acting for oneself.

[Norseman]

Who would print the currency, and who would police the people who print the currency?

[danyboy27]

Who would print the currency, and who would police the people who print the currency?

the governement. unlike someone like you i believe in states, i thing they are necessary

[Killfacer]

do you get pleasure currency according to your ability? If someone who is crap does less than someone who is good, do they receive the same amount?

[danyboy27]

like in every work, i suppose someone who do crap get fired or affected to other tasks, or get special formation to make him better

[Killfacer]

but someone who is born shit, who is stupid, small and weak. Will they receive as much as someone who is good; Big, Strong and clever?

[Norseman]

the governement. unlike someone like you i believe in states, i thing they are necessary

Ok, so what happens when the state starts printing up pleasure money for itself?

[danyboy27]

but someone who is born shit, who is stupid, small and weak. Will they receive as much as someone who is good; Big, Strong and clever?

they will receive the same amount of life currency to live well, and if he do special social program (build social housing etc) he will gewt more credit

personally i dont believe nobody is useless or shit, only badly employed, its all about using the guy wisely.

you dont need a uber I.Q to be a street sweaper.

a society should never tolerate imcompetence, and a society shall find work for everyone no matter how shit they are, has i said, being a streetsweeper is not a demanding job, and its needed

[danyboy27]

Ok, so what happens when the state starts printing up pleasure money for itself?


the state dont use that money, citizen do use it.
but seriously, in a socialist and fully democratic society, if fraud happen, the people will be punished.
nothing is failsafe, but usually verificator ans such can keep an eye on things

[Norseman]

the state dont use that money, citizen do use it.
but seriously, in a socialist and fully democratic society, if fraud happen, the people will be punished.
nothing is failsafe, but usually verificator ans such can keep an eye on things

Ok, so let's say the people who are printing the money decide to print up money for themselves, and for the politicians (if there are any). Who will find out and punish them?

[danyboy27]

Ok, so let's say the people who are printing the money decide to print up money for themselves, and for the politicians (if there are any). Who will find out and punish them?


the same way the current governements regulate thing.

its no perfect but nothing is

[Norseman]

the same way the current governements regulate thing.

its no perfect but nothing is

Well, the current government doesn't do anything about it. The current government lets privately-owned banks decide when to print money, and how much.

[danyboy27]

Well, the current government doesn't do anything about it. The current government lets privately-owned banks decide when to print money, and how much.


proof?

[pusher robot]

i got an idea about a new system (or perhaps someone else had the idea).

a system where there is 2 distinct types of currency; life currency and pleasure currency.

in that socialist society most of people would be paid the same life currency wage, a wage determined by how much a individual or a family need to confortably live (food,housing etc).

but, the pleasure currency would vary from the type of job you do, some would get more of it, some get less. this currency could be used to purchase luxury good such has fast car, luxury furniture, painting etc.

a avreage citizen that earn less pleasure currency than for a exemple, a medic , can earn extra pleasure currency by participating to social programs (house building, teaching a new language to some folks etc.). this way, everybody get happy, and the whole society would benefit of it.

in order to have extra luxury you would have to do more for your society.

pleasure currency can ONLY buy luxury goods, live currency would be equally distributed inside society.

this would build a socialist society, and would give something to the citizen so far most socialist regimes failed to deliver: positive incitative measure.

This wouldn't work unless you have a way to prevent people from exchanging one currency for another.

[danyboy27]

This wouldn't work unless you have a way to prevent people from exchanging one currency for another.

this money could be virtual, everyone would have an ID card, and each he do some extra social work, he got a transfert of x luxury currency.

i dont pretent my system is perfect or failsafe, like all system there is risk of exploit, all we can do is reduce the possibility of exploit to less than 10%

i can already see the hangry comment about my idea of ID card, but so far that the best way to reduce exploit.

i can admit my system have possible exploit, but at least i admit it, its an exercise that everyone that are part of a political group should do.

nothing is perfect or failsafe, nothing, neither anarchy, communism or socialism is perfect; all system create bad behavior, good behavior, resolve stuff, do bad stuff etc.

[Dr Mindbender]

everyone would have an ID card, .

sorry you've lost my support :rolleyes:

[pusher robot]

this money could be virtual, everyone would have an ID card, and each he do some extra social work, he got a transfert of x luxury currency.

i dont pretent my system is perfect or failsafe, like all system there is risk of exploit, all we can do is reduce the possibility of exploit to less than 10%

i can already see the hangry comment about my idea of ID card, but so far that the best way to reduce exploit.

i can admit my system have possible exploit, but at least i admit it, its an exercise that everyone that are part of a political group should do.

nothing is perfect or failsafe, nothing, neither anarchy, communism or socialism is perfect; all system create bad behavior, good behavior, resolve stuff, do bad stuff etc.

Well there has to be a way to convert one to another. Suppose I run a grocery store selling food staples. Just about everything I sell is a necessity, so at the end of the day I have a large quantity of life credits that I've exchanged groceries for. What am I supposed to do with all those? As a grocer, I'd end up with enough life currency to feed and house an army, but wouldn't be able to buy myself a color television.

I'm not saying it's not perfect, I'm saying it doesn't make any sense.

[danyboy27]

sorry you've lost my support :rolleyes:

if you find an alternative way to do it, dont be shy to drop them!

i like when people help me to develop stuff.

i am not a preacher and i dont write the bible, i am just rumbling idea!

i dont like the id card either, but that i think the only way out to limit exploit

[danyboy27]

Well there has to be a way to convert one to another. Suppose I run a grocery store selling food staples. Just about everything I sell is a necessity, so at the end of the day I have a large quantity of life credits that I've exchanged groceries for. What am I supposed to do with all those? As a grocer, I'd end up with enough life currency to feed and house an army, but wouldn't be able to buy myself a color television.

I'm not saying it's not perfect, I'm saying it doesn't make any sense.


if you work in a grocery, this establishement and the profits of this establishement are not your, well its your but its owned by the people, its a collective property. so, much of those credits are going back in the governement bank, that will use those credit to pay the people doing the stuff they do, since its a socialist regime, everyone is paid by the governement, a elected governement.

[Norseman]

proof?

I can't post links, but look up the Federal Reserve Bank.

[534634634265]

I can't post links, but look up the Federal Reserve Bank.
thats not "private banks" plural, thats a single federally overseen bank. its also rife with problems, so don't think i support its existence.

i personally like this idea. and for pusher robot, why not make the currency exchangeable at a branch of the peoples credit union? also, instead of an ID card, why not just use debit cards, like those banks already issue?

[forward]

explain how this is better than capitalism, you do a job that is in high demand and requires good skills, you get paid accordingly. your system seems too complicated. what if i want to be a CEO and exploit my labour? ha ha ha, but seriously, it means in addition to your job you have to do other work, so you'll have a ton of blue-collar workers but no doctors cuz no one wants to go to medical school for 10 years just so they can get paid the same as someone who didnt even go to college. i mean when you're in medical school do you really have any time to be working on social projects? so you wont be getting any pleassure currency because you'll be studying all time, and when you graduate you wont get any additional benefit, despite more work and more benefit to society. will you also pay everyone the same amount, even those who arent working?

[534634634265]

explain how this is better than capitalism, you do a job that is in high demand and requires good skills, you get paid accordingly. your system seems too complicated. what if i want to be a CEO and exploit my labour? ha ha ha, but seriously, it means in addition to your job you have to do other work, so you'll have a ton of blue-collar workers but no doctors cuz no one wants to go to medical school for 10 years just so they can get paid the same as someone who didnt even go to college. i mean when you're in medical school do you really have any time to be working on social projects? so you wont be getting any pleassure currency because you'll be studying all time, and when you graduate you wont get any additional benefit, despite more work and more benefit to society. will you also pay everyone the same amount, even those who arent working?
glad you read all of this instead of just skimming and then posting on selected points.:rolleyes:

everyone would be paid the same. lets take your commonly overplayed "no doctors" argument. for one, plenty of people want to be doctors just for the sake of helping others. these doctors would be paid the same basic life currency that everyone else would get, but also because their work is so beneficial to mankind they would receive additional pleasurable assets currency, in order to acknowledge the good that they do.
if you don't work you wouldn't receive any sort of credits, so you'd have a great motivation to get off your lazy ass. you could even be a street sweeper or service sewerlines, or tend the elderly. no skills necessary, minimum of labor required, and you still get basic living currency, with a minimal amount of pleasurable assets currency.

[danyboy27]

explain how this is better than capitalism, you do a job that is in high demand and requires good skills, you get paid accordingly. your system seems too complicated. what if i want to be a CEO and exploit my labour? ha ha ha, but seriously, it means in addition to your job you have to do other work, so you'll have a ton of blue-collar workers but no doctors cuz no one wants to go to medical school for 10 years just so they can get paid the same as someone who didnt even go to college. i mean when you're in medical school do you really have any time to be working on social projects? so you wont be getting any pleassure currency because you'll be studying all time, and when you graduate you wont get any additional benefit, despite more work and more benefit to society. will you also pay everyone the same amount, even those who arent working?

my idea dosnt force nobody to do this extra social work, there is incentive but nothing force them to do it. you cant exploit your labor, but for extra stuff you do you are rewarded.

if you are a medic or a well educated worker you get paid the same in life currency, but got an extra in luxury currency.
people doing manual labor will eventually have less mandatory labor, and could use his extra free time either by helping his community (gaining extra luxury credit), or he could just relax and enjoy the multiple state provided facilities at his disposal (gym,pool etc.)

student will have less luxury credit, but still have a steady amount of life credit, giving them the opportunity to study without carrying the burden of looking for work at the same time they are in formation at school.

the students will eventually see their hard work rewarded beccause at the end they will have a job that gonna give them the opportunity to have a better amount of luxury credit.

if you are an ambitious and competitive person, you can go to school, get a great well paid in luxury credit, and if you want more you still have the posibility to contributer even more to society by doing various part time job related to your field of competence. a medic that is really ambitious, can give nurse formation during the weekend if he want to, he gonna get rewarded for it.

my system is not better than capitalism, or communism, my system is different, i dont have the pretention that i have discovered something to confront capitalism and if one day realized my system will have it difficulties and problem, like every system on that world.

please foward, can you just for a minute stop looking at socialist idea has a way to confront or outsmart capitalism? i am not attacking your system, i am looking for new and innovative solution, whinning at communism and capitalism is a loss of time, its a lot better looking for new shit instead.

[Mala Tha Testa]

if you are a medic or a well educated worker you get paid the same in life currency, but got an extra in luxury currency.
people doing manual labor will eventually have less mandatory labor, and could use his extra free time either by helping his community (gaining extra luxury credit), or he could just relax and enjoy the multiple state provided facilities at his disposal (gym,pool etc.)

student will have less luxury credit, but still have a steady amount of life credit, giving them the opportunity to study without carrying the burden of looking for work at the same time they are in formation at school.

the students will eventually see their hard work rewarded beccause at the end they will have a job that gonna give them the opportunity to have a better amount of luxury credit.

if you are an ambitious and competitive person, you can go to school, get a great well paid in luxury credit, and if you want more you still have the posibility to contributer even more to society by doing various part time job related to your field of competence. a medic that is really ambitious, can give nurse formation during the weekend if he want to, he gonna get rewarded for it.

sort of makes sence to me until the luxury credits, which will end up creating classes because if someone is a doctor or is "well educated worker" they recieve more luxury credits, making them and other workers who recieve more luxury credits the new upper class, though it would be easier for someone of the new lower class to move up to the new upper class under this economy than it is under the current capitalist.

[534634634265]

sort of makes sence to me until the luxury credits, which will end up creating classes because if someone is a doctor or is "well educated worker" they recieve more luxury credits, making them and other workers who recieve more luxury credits the new upper class, though it would be easier for someone of the new lower class to move up to the new upper class under this economy than it is under the current capitalist.
i don't think it would be so distinct as an upper, middle, and lower class. or at least, it would make everyone middle to upper class. remember that you can only get your pleasurable assets credits for doing works benificial to society as a whole. volunteer work? yes. normal work? probably not, unless your a surgeon or some equally grand profession.

[Mala Tha Testa]

i don't think it would be so distinct as an upper, middle, and lower class. or at least, it would make everyone middle to upper class.

same here,
but since they still exist it's not really Socialsim

[danyboy27]

luxury credit was some kind of idea to motivate people, and at the same time help some people with more individualistic,competitive behavior to give to the society something.

it will eventually create a class, but at least, people will not starve beccause of them, they will not be able to stock insane quantity of essential good, beccause those will be controlled, and the dude will have to give something to society to receive something from it. Benevolent behavior will find their way to make a diference, and ambitious people will make their difference, all that without opressing nobody.

also, controlling essential stuff like food and other will be a great method to avoid people to waste essential ressources

[Mala Tha Testa]

luxury credit was some kind of idea to motivate people, and at the same time help some people with more individualistic,competitive behavior to give to the society something.
which i have no problem with.


it will eventually create a class, but at least, people will not starve beccause of them, they will not be able to stock insane quantity of essential good, beccause those will be controlled, and the dude will have to give something to society to receive something from it. Benevolent behavior will find their way to make a diference, and ambitious people will make their difference, all that without opressing nobody.

also, controlling essential stuff like food and other will be a great method to avoid people to waste essential ressources

but you said in the OP that it'd bring about Socialism;


this would build a socialist society

which it couldn't as long as the classes that even you acknowledge exist

[534634634265]

same here,
but since they still exist it's not really Socialsim
true, and false. it would be a truly direct democracy in a society where all industries are state run. close to but different from socialism.
conceptually i haven't heard of anything like this. maybe you'd care to contribute an idea as to how to bring this into balance?

[Mala Tha Testa]

true, and false. it would be a truly direct democracy in a society where all industries are state run. close to but different from socialism.

but spetsnaz is talking about bringing about Socialism with this dual currency system


conceptually i haven't heard of anything like this. maybe you'd care to contribute an idea as to how to bring this into balance?

you haven't heard of anything like spetsnaz's theory?(or something else) if so, niether have i.
and i have been thinking, since i first read it, how to bring about said balance

[pusher robot]

I still don't understand the point of having two currencies. The point, apparently, is to guarantee everybody a certain minimum standard of living. Why couldn't this be accomplished with one currency? Simply send everybody a check, let them spend it on what they feel appropriate, and whatever they earn on top of that is gravy. What is the point of having the second currency? Is it because people can't be trusted to use their subsidy for necessities instead of blowing it on hookers and blackjack?

[danyboy27]

the basic idea was to find an incentive for the people to do more for society. it will help convince certain people to do more for society and reward them for their effort. its also a verry good way to control the amount of luxury good produced, or at least, give a certain number of time to manufactore, and avoir penury and such. having a dual system also help to regulate food to avoid penury of food and other big problem that may cause a single currency system (people rushing to the supermarket to make huuge reserves).

also clearly dividing pleasure and essential need into 2 clearly different entities will greatly help managing of ressources and reduce the burden of governement official to manage it.

has i said, its not perfect, never will, never intended to be.

[534634634265]

I still don't understand the point of having two currencies. The point, apparently, is to guarantee everybody a certain minimum standard of living. Why couldn't this be accomplished with one currency? Simply send everybody a check, let them spend it on what they feel appropriate, and whatever they earn on top of that is gravy. What is the point of having the second currency? Is it because people can't be trusted to use their subsidy for necessities instead of blowing it on hookers and blackjack?

i don't see a problem with letting people use their luxury credit to purchase hookers and play blackjack.:D

seriously though, if you cut everyone a fatty check, there ARE too many who would spend it with abandon. i suppose thats their right, but its kind of a bummer when your trying to bring about a society where we all work for the common good.

[EvigLidelse]

This system has got so many losses. ^^

What if I, the guy that has a lot of these "life credits", wants to buy a car from this guy with a lot of "pleasure credits"? If we made a deal that I'd give him life credits, then it would work.. Who would monitor it?

And this could pretty much work in our one currency system, you don't need two currencies. Give everybody a certain amount of cash, and give them extra cash for doing other stuff, extra work, social work etc. What would be the losses of that more simple system?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I still don't understand the point of having two currencies. The point, apparently, is to guarantee everybody a certain minimum standard of living. Why couldn't this be accomplished with one currency? Simply send everybody a check, let them spend it on what they feel appropriate, and whatever they earn on top of that is gravy. What is the point of having the second currency? Is it because people can't be trusted to use their subsidy for necessities instead of blowing it on hookers and blackjack?

Why resort to means of exchange that circulate throughout the economy, thereby facilitating the formation of capital in the first place? The false dilemma presented by barter and money needs to go.

[Lynx]

How to differentiate between collective and personal effort?
The method used within the current system is taxation. That is an impersonal and often hated method.

I'm in favor of dual currency or an alternative method that:
- allow the worker to know which type of contribution they are making (collective or personal)
- allow the worker to know which benefits are available for each type of effort

On a related question about class: if someone chooses to work more hours than average, should they not expect to enjoy more luxury or a higher standard of living? Workaholics would remain free to exploit themselves, right?

[Lynx]

Why resort to means of exchange that circulate throughout the economy, thereby facilitating the formation of capital in the first place? The false dilemma presented by barter and money needs to go.
This could be spun into yet another thread. Or link, please!

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ In a PM. ;)

[danyboy27]

This system has got so many losses. ^^

What if I, the guy that has a lot of these "life credits", wants to buy a car from this guy with a lot of "pleasure credits"? If we made a deal that I'd give him life credits, then it would work.. Who would monitor it?

And this could pretty much work in our one currency system, you don't need two currencies. Give everybody a certain amount of cash, and give them extra cash for doing other stuff, extra work, social work etc. What would be the losses of that more simple system?

money will be virtual and everybody would have a virtual account. you could buy a car with your pleasure credit only. sure there is many hole in my system, every system have holes, and i am still developping stuff about my concept.

i know its dosnt fit with marxist ideology, and the more the time past the more i dissociate myself from marxism.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Why doesn't it fit? In actual fact, "Late Marx" talked about this a bit:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1885-c2/ch18.htm (last two paragraphs)

[Killfacer]

marx stole his ideas from spetnaz

[danyboy27]

marx stole his ideas from spetnaz


LOL funny shit. i was not aware of it, in fact, that marx had discussed about it will not make me marxist, even a bit.

[Baconator]

i got an idea about a new system (or perhaps someone else had the idea).

a system where there is 2 distinct types of currency; life currency and pleasure currency.

Why just two? Whats so special about two rather than three or four? If you decide for yourself to hold two currencies I can't see any problem with that. But why should you decide for me or the guy down the street that he must hold only two kinds of currency as well? Why couldn't I just demand that you hold 3 types of currency and we'll call the 3rd booglemarks and booglemarks will be defined how I see fit? What gives you the right to demand I hold two but I cannot demand you hold three?


in that socialist society most of people would be paid the same life currency wage, a wage determined by how much a individual or a family need to confortably live (food,housing etc).

Where does the 'stuff' for the life currency come from? Is it garnished from the labor product of others? If you claim person A may redistribute the product of my labor in anyway then you must explain to me logically how I can't demand that I redistribute person A's money in any way. You must prove to me what is fundamentally different between me , the guy down the street , and the politician that the politician may steal from me but deny me and the guy down the street the same right. Have fun with that one. :)




but, the pleasure currency would vary from the type of job you do, some would get more of it, some get less. this currency could be used to purchase luxury good such has fast car, luxury furniture, painting etc.

So you think some guys that call themselves the government which make up less that 1% of most given populations could decide who gets paid what better than everyone else? Nay, you are suggesting this less than 1% should have the right to determine that why others like me and the guy down the street cannot. Furthermore, are you attempting to redefine the usage of goods to some tyrant's ( see government official's) whim about classifying goods?


a avreage citizen that earn less pleasure currency than for a exemple, a medic , can earn extra pleasure currency by participating to social programs (house building, teaching a new language to some folks etc.). this way, everybody get happy, and the whole society would benefit of it.

No society benefits as a whole through the use of violence called state coercion. In fact , only a minority benefit and those are the individuals that work within, with , and for the state. ( if the state favors them of course). You must define to me what constructs a 'unit' of happiness so it may be objectively measured for every single individual that comprises a society.


in order to have extra luxury you would have to do more for your society.

Sounds dangerously free market. :thumbup:


pleasure currency can ONLY buy luxury goods, live currency would be equally distributed inside society.

Who are you to tell me what the product of my labor may be traded for? Why can't I just demand that your pleasure currency can ONLY be exchanged for toilet paper?


this would build a socialist society, and would give something to the citizen so far most socialist regimes failed to deliver: positive incitative measure.

It would give the citizen a rather large heavy handed regime of thugs which claim the right to dictate what he may do with his one and only life. Socialist society always failed to deliver that which it has promised, a quick fix to ailments common throughout society.

[danyboy27]

or i explain thing badly, or people just dosnt read my post correctly.
anyway, how do i close this topic?

btw, i dont fucking care it sound free market.
i never had in mind to invent something that could benefit to an anarchist or a communist anyway, if i would youse your principles to create an idea and put it on paper, the whole sheet will be all white with nothing written on it, mainly beccause your hardcore dogma will make impossible to me to create something that worth using my pen for. of course, i could write something about how communist is perfect, or how anarchist is perfect, how this will resolve the world hunger, etc etc etc, But i am gonna leave that to others.

[Bud Struggle]

A take on Cuba's dual currency from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=4&islist=true&id=2&d=08-07-2008

Kind of nails it--I see much the same thing when I visit.