Most stupid bourgeoisie arguments

[Dimentio]

I think there are many stupid bourgeoisie or pro-capitalist arguments against socialism/communism. The most stupid of them must be "the boredom of equality", which I encountered today in the last book of T.H White's Arthur Saga.

Total equality equates that everyone have the same shoe size. In short, the argument states that the same access to the means of production equates a total loss of individuality.

What's your examples?

[Dr Mindbender]

same old tired ones like, 'human nature', 'whats the point in working harder if you all get paid the same', etc.

Actually, i'm glad you brought this up, theres this guy at the anti-com forums that been playing anti-marx hardball with me. According to him, all but a few hardline communists have abandoned the LTV.

http://anticom.proboards46.com/index.cgi?board=evil&action=display&thread=89

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I've been told the relationship between worker and employer is mutual since employers need workers to be employers. Aristocrats could have made the same argument.

I've been told a brain surgeon and a teacher do not deserve the same pay under communism. When I pointed out that pay wouldn't exist, she promptly said they shouldn't get the same time. I said that wouldn't necessarily be the case - workers' councils could certainly make more laborious tasks shorter. She told me they shouldn't get the same pay.

I've been told marketing and advertising are necessary for any advanced society, or else it will implode. Apparently if you're not told to CONSUME, CONSUME, CONSUME you'll suddenly stop consuming.

I've been told all people will need to live in the same house, with the same number of shoes, with the same blades of grass in their yard (yes, it did get this absurd).

[Red_or_Dead]

I've been told the relationship between worker and employer is mutual since employers need workers to be employers.

Maybe, but workers dont need employers. Or better yet, employers can be workers, and workers can be employers.


I've been told all people will need to live in the same house, with the same number of shoes, with the same blades of grass in their yard (yes, it did get this absurd).


Lol. Ive encountered that one a few times myself. I say that its down to "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Nowhere in this sentence does it say that abilites and needs are the same with every person.

[Yes]

"B-b-but it has always failed!!!"

:laugh::laugh:

[Matty_UK]

same old tired ones like, 'human nature', 'whats the point in working harder if you all get paid the same', etc.

Actually, i'm glad you brought this up, theres this guy at the anti-com forums that been playing anti-marx hardball with me. According to him, all but a few hardline communists have abandoned the LTV.

http://anticom.proboards46.com/index.cgi?board=evil&action=display&thread=89

There's anti-communist forums?
What sort of wankers must post there, to hate the idea of communism so much to have an entire forum based on attacking it? Understandable during the cold war, but what with communism having such insignificant presence on the world the people there must be pretty messed up weirdos.

[Dr Mindbender]

There's anti-communist forums?
What sort of wankers must post there, to hate the idea of communism so much to spend time on a forum attacking it? Understandable during the cold war, but what with communism having such insignificant presence on the world the people there must be pretty messed up weirdos.
help me argue with this fucker!
:thumbup1:

[Dimentio]

There's anti-communist forums?
What sort of wankers must post there, to hate the idea of communism so much to spend time on a forum attacking it? Understandable during the cold war, but what with communism having such insignificant presence on the world the people there must be pretty messed up weirdos.

Right-wing extremists and conservatives often equates everything they don't like as the same thing (as Hitler said for the sake of simplicity).

To be honest, many (less intelligent) communists are doing the same thing. So for example, US conservatives, libertarians and fascists could seriously chose to believe that the UN, the WTO and even the US state is socialist and hell-bent on abolishing their "liberty" in some sort of insidious conspiracy.

[mykittyhasaboner]

"markets are needed to stimulate growth. collectivist economies are always stagnate.":rolleyes:

[politics student]

"some people are better than other due to the family they are born in because of god" (classical religious neo con argument.)

One of the worst I have heard was "whats the point in working knowing I can not buy a supersports car if I reach the top."

[Holden Caulfield]

...look at Joseph Stalin he was a communist, look at Adolf Hilter he was a socialist

[Chapter 24]

Humans are naturally evil, greedy pieces of shit. ;)

[Lost In Translation]

Look at Mao! He said he was a communist. Look what he did to China!

Or 'The USSR collapsed because it could not sustain communism no more' (word for word)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I've been told a brain surgeon and a teacher do not deserve the same pay under communism. When I pointed out that pay wouldn't exist, she promptly said they shouldn't get the same time. I said that wouldn't necessarily be the case - workers' councils could certainly make more laborious tasks shorter. She told me they shouldn't get the same pay.

Since there are fewer brain surgeons to meet demand than hair stylists, it's going to very hard to implement that unless you want to tell people, "Sorry, mam, but he did his 2 surgeries for the day..."

If you wanted to make the surgeon do an unequal amount of work to compensate, well, then some form of compensation would be required to make this an attractive occupation, no? Currently, the method employed to attract people to 6-8 years of hard study then several years of training is very good pay.



"markets are needed to stimulate growth. collectivist economies are always stagnate."


Markets aren't needed to stimulate growth, but it appears they're required to allow society to choose what growth it wants.

Case in point: In the 1980s, the USSR had 19,000 tanks, more than any other nation in the world. Quite immpressive, and a testament to Soviet manufacturing capability.

However, none of those tanks helped them when the gross undersupply of consumer products which are abundant in the West (at least the US) caused the popular uprising which resulted in the Oligarchial-Capitalism they have there. I believe that if the USSRs cronies had realized what a volatile situation they were creating and instead built, say, 10,000 tanks and a few thousand refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners, and quality houses, we'd still have a Soviet Union.

But how would they have known? There was no market to tell them these things....



"some people are better than other due to the family they are born in because of god"


Stupid people are often the happiest.

Do you have a problem with people being happy?



"B-b-but it has always failed!!!"


B-b-but it has!!!

Or, when not completely falling on it's ass in large nations (such as Russia), it's turned into the most pro-business govt in the world (such as China).



...look at Joseph Stalin he was a communist, look at Adolf Hilter he was a socialist


Both of those are true, but yes, that argument in stupid.

[Norseman]

Since there are fewer brain surgeons to meet demand than hair stylists, it's going to very hard to implement that unless you want to tell people, "Sorry, mam, but he did his 2 surgeries for the day..."

If you wanted to make the surgeon do an unequal amount of work to compensate, well, then some form of compensation would be required to make this an attractive occupation, no? Currently, the method employed to attract people to 6-8 years of hard study then several years of training is very good pay.


Certainly. But, I think you're not understanding what communism is. Communists oppose privately held capital, i.e. the kind of property that allows someone to benefit from the labor of others simply because they own it. They have no problem with other property, or with publicly owned capital. They oppose money, at least in part, because whoever can print the money can benefit from the labor of others without needing to do any useful work. With those two things in mind, do communists object to luxuries? No. Do they object to making things worth someone's time? No.

If I may quote the communist manifesto:


Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

If communists want to establish a public healthcare system, funded by the labor the beneficiaries, in order to make people volunteer to be surgeons, that's easy.



Markets aren't needed to stimulate growth, but it appears they're required to allow society to choose what growth it wants.

Case in point: In the 1980s, the USSR had 19,000 tanks, more than any other nation in the world. Quite immpressive, and a testament to Soviet manufacturing capability.

However, none of those tanks helped them when the gross undersupply of consumer products which are abundant in the West (at least the US) caused the popular uprising which resulted in the Oligarchial-Capitalism they have there. I believe that if the USSRs cronies had realized what a volatile situation they were creating and instead built, say, 10,000 tanks and a few thousand refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners, and quality houses, we'd still have a Soviet Union.

But how would they have known? There was no market to tell them these things....


The USSR was not communist. If it was, they wouldn't have bothered making any tanks in the first place. A much easier strategy for them would have been to offer a home and a farm to any invading soldier who will surrender their weapon. Or to convince the people in the US who were making tanks to stop the production, and do something more beneficial for their society. Or to convince people to join the army and desert at the first possible opportunity. If it was actually communist, it would have been impossible to get an army to invade it; it would have been all too easy to turn any invaders into immigrants. Soldiers need to know that their enemies are evil. If they can't be convinced of that, they will be reluctant to fight, and even more so if their supposed enemy treats them better than their supposed allies. IMO, soldiers cannot be lured to attack civilians in a country with no army. See, for example, the countries which have no armies. (I can't post links, so go to the wikipedia article titled "List of countries without armed forces")



B-b-but it has!!!

Or, when not completely falling on it's ass in large nations (such as Russia), it's turned into the most pro-business govt in the world (such as China).


Neither of those are communist. Communists oppose the existence of countries.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ "There have always been markets."

Abe, capitalism is different from other systems, in that it has three markets (not just one): the consumer goods and services market, the labour market, and the capital market.

[Killfacer]

why is this in opposing ideologies? Seems like a shit attempt to goad people.

[RedAnarchist]

why is this in opposing ideologies? Seems like a shit attempt to goad people.

:lol:

Or maybe to encourage debate?

[Bud Struggle]

Iron Curtain women:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42605000/jpg/_42605755_stalinafp416.jpg

Free World Babe:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/Thirstyguy/american-flag-model-bikini.jpg

:D :D :D

[Mala Tha Testa]

I can't post links, so go to the wikipedia article titled "List of countries without armed forces"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_an_army

[Lost In Translation]

Iron Curtain women:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42605000/jpg/_42605755_stalinafp416.jpg

Free World Babe:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/Thirstyguy/american-flag-model-bikini.jpg

:D :D :D
I can find lots of pictures of Russian women that RADIATE beauty, not just show it. :p:p:p:p

Maria Sharapova comes to mind.

[politics student]

The one most annoying thing anyone can say.

"Everyone is left wing when they are young"
:cursing:

[Dr Mindbender]

I can find lots of pictures of Russian women that RADIATE beauty, not just show it. :p:p:p:p

Maria Sharapova comes to mind.

Comrade Sofia comes to my mind :lol: :lol:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqKQjVo30o

[Bud Struggle]

Indeed--where is exactly is that Comrade Sophia from?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Since there are fewer brain surgeons to meet demand than hair stylists, it's going to very hard to implement that unless you want to tell people, "Sorry, mam, but he did his 2 surgeries for the day..."
[...] Except communism doesn't suffer from the same pitfalls of unemployment, underemployment, wasted labor, and idleness of capitalism. Nice attempt, though.

What has failed more often than Soviet economics? Free market, unregulated capitalism. Gone in America, Britain, France, Hong Kong, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Venezuela - hell, practically everywhere. :thumbup:

[al8]

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8370/52068878nh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8370/52068878nh0.59138052c5.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=162&i=52068878nh0.jpg)
http://gorillamask.net/amandabraun1.shtml

[Bright Banana Beard]

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8370/52068878nh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8370/52068878nh0.59138052c5.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=162&i=52068878nh0.jpg)
http://gorillamask.net/amandabraun1.shtml

I have to admit, I'm gonna fap her. :lol:

[Schrödinger's Cat]

The Soviets could have won the Cold War if they used propaganda like this.

Sadly, I don't think I'm wrong, either.

[Dr Mindbender]

The Soviets could have won the Cold War if they used propaganda like this.

Sadly, I don't think I'm wrong, either.


its probably a good job they didnt.

All we would have got would be global stalinism, not bona fide communism of the leninist flavour.

[Trystan]

Iron Curtain women:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42605000/jpg/_42605755_stalinafp416.jpg


:D :D :D


:lol: good one . . .

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1387836/2/istockphoto_1387836_communist_girl.jpg

Guerilla babe :)

Least we forget the RAF women:


http://www.kersplebedeb.com/blog/mohnhaupt.jpg

She may have been a psychotic Stalinist swine, but damn . . . *fap* *fap* *fap*:lol:

[Green Dragon]

[quote=Norseman;1207817]Certainly. But, I think you're not understanding what communism is. Communists oppose privately held capital, i.e. the kind of property that allows someone to benefit from the labor of others simply because they own it. They have no problem with other property, or with publicly owned capital. They oppose money, at least in part, because whoever can print the money can benefit from the labor of others without needing to do any useful work. With those two things in mind, do communists object to luxuries? No. Do they object to making things worth someone's time? No.


It is in response to these kind of quotes from where the revlefters find their "stupid bourgeoise comments." The above quote says nothing of substance, but readily makes itself open to all sorts of conclusions. HOW does a communist community make work worth somebody else's time? How does the community determine what labor is useful and what is not?






If communists want to establish a public healthcare system, funded by the labor the beneficiaries, in order to make people volunteer to be surgeons, that's easy.


Okay HOW is it "easy" for the communists to form a health care system funded by the beneficiaries? what does it mean to say that a communist community will "make" people "volunteer" to be surgeons? How does the community at large "make" people "volunteer" to do any work the community needs completing?



The USSR was not communist. If it was, they wouldn't have bothered making any tanks in the first place. A much easier strategy for them would have been to offer a home and a farm to any invading soldier who will surrender their weapon. Or to convince the people in the US who were making tanks to stop the production, and do something more beneficial for their society. Or to convince people to join the army and desert at the first possible opportunity. If it was actually communist, it would have been impossible to get an army to invade it; it would have been all too easy to turn any invaders into immigrants.

Do you think maybe the Revlefters face the problem indicated in the thread title, because of such grandiose claims as quoted above (which was completely unsupported by any evidence or argument, save perhaps faith). Most of the "bourgeoise" ignore you folks anyhow, knowing full well the quaintness and anachronism of what is argued.

[Norseman]

It is in response to these kind of quotes from where the revlefters find their "stupid bourgeoise comments." The above quote says nothing of substance, but readily makes itself open to all sorts of conclusions. HOW does a communist community make work worth somebody else's time? How does the community determine what labor is useful and what is not?


Direct democracy is how they can decide what's useful and what to do. There are an uncountable number of ways they could make work worth someone's time. One example is to handle all of a surgeon's other jobs; taking out the trash, cleaning and repairing their home, cooking their food, getting their groceries and so on. That way, even if the surgeon spends more time at work than other people, they still have about the same amount of time to relax every week, if not more. If people don't want to vote to do that, there are still more possibilities than I can imagine.



Okay HOW is it "easy" for the communists to form a health care system funded by the beneficiaries? what does it mean to say that a communist community will "make" people "volunteer" to be surgeons? How does the community at large "make" people "volunteer" to do any work the community needs completing?


If people want socialized healthcare, and certainly they do if we're talking about a bunch of communists, then they can vote to decide how they want to repay their doctors. Obviously, they need to make it worthwhile for people to be doctors; if one way doesn't work so well, they can try another and another and another until they get one that both the voters and doctors like.



Do you think maybe the Revlefters face the problem indicated in the thread title, because of such grandiose claims as quoted above (which was completely unsupported by any evidence or argument, save perhaps faith). Most of the "bourgeoise" ignore you folks anyhow, knowing full well the quaintness and anachronism of what is argued.

If you read George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, you'll see examples of anarchists and Marxists convincing fascist soldiers to come to their side, on the argument that they are working class, so they shouldn't fight against the same class. If you watch Hidden Facts (I can't post links, but you can find this on youtube), you'll see examples of US soldiers and contractors being smuggled out of Iraq.


We also extend our hands again and again to those troops in Iraq who are still holding on to their morality and humanity, to those who do not want to be part of this crime, that the doors of our mosques and churches will always remain open for. And we in the resistance will honor your humanity and will assist you in discreetly taking you out of Iraq into neighboring countries where you will not be prosecuted and labeled as deserters. We know there are many amongst you who want to leave, but we can only help if you gather the courage to express sorrow, remorse, and detachment from this crime.

We have smuggled out tens and tens of honest men who thought they were coming to Iraq for a cause. Only a few cases such as US Marine Wassef Ali Hasoun who was captured then during interrogation it was clearly evident that this man was not a criminal and thus, we could not harm him. We undertook the task of taking him out of Iraq to safety. We are usually more heavy handed with punishment, when we find people of Arab or Iraqi origin who aid the US.

And, if you look at Napoleon, for example (I'll quote from a website, I suppose you can google this link):


Louis XVIII sent the 5th Regiment of the Line led by Marshal Ney who had formerly served in Russia under Napoleon to meet him at Grenoble on 7 March 1815. When they met an officer shouted, "There he is! Fire!" Napoleon approached the regiment alone. Dismounting from his horse, he approached to within earshot of Ney's forces, opened his coat and shouted, "Soldiers of the Fifth, you recognize me. If any man would shoot his emperor he may do so now". After an agonizing silence the soldiers bellowed back, "Vive L'Empereur!"

There's no question that this kind of thing happens. The only question is whether or not it can happen on a scale that would consume an entire military force. I think the examples of countries without militaries are an example that this is true. If having no military force would automatically result in conquest, those countries would have been conquered by now. The problem is that no country can justify invading them; they have no army to defeat. How could soldiers be made to fight without giving them an enemy?

[Killfacer]

Comrade Sofia was alot fitter than Tanya. Plus boris fucked them both up. Comrade sofia is evidence that not all steel curtain women are bearded, many are leather clad dominatrix.

[Dr Mindbender]

Comrade Sofia was alot fitter than Tanya. Plus boris fucked them both up. Comrade sofia is evidence that not all steel curtain women are bearded, many are leather clad dominatrix.

i do concede the fact that the girl who played her was probably an american ten a penny porn star looking for some extra cash but i'm sure you appreciate the gesture.

:)

[Bud Struggle]

i do concede the fact that the girl who played her was probably an american ten a penny porn star looking for some extra cash but i'm sure you appreciate the gesture.

:)

Aleksandra Kaniak.

She may be the pornstar thingie--but I believe she's actually Russian.

[Dr Mindbender]

Aleksandra Kaniak.

She may be the pornstar thingie--but I believe she's actually Russian.


oh well, my mention of her had more merit than token humour.

Well you learn something everyday.

[Incendiarism]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/lolololnoobz/1142941785242.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/lolololnoobz/1142941753948.jpg

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

yeah, russian girls are fuckin hot.

And btw, is the term fap a british thing?

[Decolonize The Left]

I think it's pretty sad when you are comparing the beauty of women posing in different outfits to argue for which ideology is better... seems rather capitalist doesn't it? I mean, isn't that what happens all the time from sodas to cars to toothbrushes?

- August

EDIT: On a side, and possibly hypocritical, note, the lady with the machine gun posted by Incendiarism is incredibly beautiful.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I think the picture game should have ended on al's post. It got repetitive afterwards.

[Bud Struggle]

I think the picture game should have ended on al's post. It got repetitive afterwards.

Gene, you're getting OLD. :lol:

(Sigh, so am I. :()

[Incendiarism]

I didn't intend to objectify those girls, I just thought it was pertinent to the discussion which is infinitely more preferable to speaking ill of the bourgeoisie(imo).

[Captain Morgan]

Did anyone else happen to notice that those girls Incie posted here were indeed wearing nazbol (freaky bunch of Russian neo-fascists) armbands?

Surprising indeed from someone who considers himself to be a revolutionary leftist, eh? :D

[Trystan]

I think it's pretty sad when you are comparing the beauty of women posing in different outfits to argue for which ideology is better... seems rather capitalist doesn't it? I mean, isn't that what happens all the time from sodas to cars to toothbrushes?

- August


Take things too seriously much?

[Incendiarism]

I wasn't sure what they were, I just saw the sickle and hammer. I found those pictures years ago.