Taxation without Representation - In the USA

[timbaly]

I was just wondering if any document states the "justification" of taxing minors although they aren't represented in the congress. In the USA you can have your working papers before you're officially an adult but the gov't still taxes your paycheck. If such a document exists can you give me a link to it or just name it if you don't have one.

[Mazdak]

Yes, timbaly, i actually agree. Teenagers who work get no representation yet they still pay taxes. Isnt the reason the United States broke away from England because of taxation without representation?

[RedComrade]

Isnt Puerto Rico taxed without representation?

[antieverything]

Puerto Rico has no voting representative in Congress but they don't pay federal taxes either...and they vote every four years to keep it that way. Not a bad deal if you ignore the whole weapons testing deal.

I disagree that people under the age of 18 should be able to vote. Voting is a responsibility...some responsibilities must be reserved for those mature enough for them (of course I'm not saying that all adults are mature...only that this is the best way to give responsibility). Should children be allowed to enter into contracts or mariatal agreements without parental consent? Should they be able to be executed for murder? Should a 6 year old girl be able to legally consent to sex with a 30 year old pedophile?

If your logic is applied to teenagers than why not toddlers and kids in elementary school? They pay sales taxes and are subject to laws passed by representatives like the rest of us!

Most teenagers don't actually pay any income tax...they are below the cuttoff at which taxation begins. They do, however, pay into social security but would you rather them not?

[timbaly]

Wait a minute here, I'm not saying minors should vote, but if they aren't allowed to they shouldn't be taxed. In our current society i don't think minors should be able to vote, but the mindset needs to be changed in the future so once you show your able to think analyticaly you would get the right to vote no matter what your age is. But then the education system would need a great reform and...... well a lot of things would need to change for the better.

[antieverything]

Well, minors paying income tax might be one thing...but it isn't a big enough deal for anyone to do anything about.

But, if minors' capital gains/interest on bank accounts/dividends weren't taxed, can you imagine what would happen? Everyone with a little money would put it all in their child's bank account.

[Mazdak]

Who said teenagers should not be executed? They should be tried the same way anyone else is. That is a great inequality that a 17 year old can shoot down dozens of people and get treated leniently while someone who is 20 can get the death sentence for a lesser crime. That is not far. A 17 year old knows what he is doing. He is not 3 or 4, he has a functioning mind.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I'll agree with Antieverything on this one.

Mazdak, you're crazy. You cannot try children as adults, they are not adults. You shouldn't be able to ruin the entire life of a child for commiting a crime. The US justice system does this sort of thing. When a minor commits murder, they are tried as adults because, supposedly, murder is an "adult-crime." What is normaly overlooked is that the second a minor commits a crime, it instantly ends being an "adult-crime." Children can have they're own consequences, not the same ones that adults are subject to. Let the parent take some responsibility.

[timbaly]

Quote: from antieverything on 10:47 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
Well, minors paying income tax might be one thing...but it isn't a big enough deal for anyone to do anything about.

But, if minors' capital gains/interest on bank accounts/dividends weren't taxed, can you imagine what would happen? Everyone with a little money would put it all in their child's bank account.


A childs bank account can be taxed because most of the money in it was probaly gifts from relatives. They got their money from their job and are represented while making the money so that money can be fairly taxed. Now the money that the minor puts into his account, that he worked for shouldn't be taxed because he isn't represented. But than again how can you tell the difference between the minors earned money and the minors gift money.

[antieverything]

Exactly...and I wouldn't be comfortable with the government knowing that anyway...so let's just drop it. The revolution was partly triggered by taxation without representation but I don't know if there is any legal precedence against it. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

[thursday night]

"If your logic is applied to teenagers than why not toddlers and kids in elementary school? They pay sales taxes and are subject to laws passed by representatives like the rest of us!"

Kids, or anybody for that matter, have the option to not buy anything and thus not pay any sales taxes, so your debate is eliminated then. I believe that when youths begin to pay income taxes (sixteen in Canada, I don't know what it is in America) they should also have the right to vote in elections.

[timbaly]

But if you don't buy anything you won't live very long, so you really don't have the choice of whether or not you want to buy things.

As for the elementary school kids paying taxes, they don't work so the money they spend is really their own parents, not thiers. So taxing that money is justified. But as I said before how can you tell a working minors earned money from money given to him.

Well let me make up something off the top of my head...........................................

The minor will be payed with recyclable cards, similar to credit cards. When they buy something they swipe it at the store in the credit card swiping machine. If a store doesn't accept credit cards than they can get machines especially made for these money cards. Besides most stores that don't take credit cards are small markets like bodagas, who get a lot of money from minors. Every time they swipe the card the cost of the item they bought will be deducted from the card until it runs out. when it runs outthey simply bring it to a store that collects empty cards. Than every week or so a truck will come to pick up the cards and refill them for next weeks pay checks.

Now as for depositing things in the bank......................
You swipe your card at the bank and enter the amount of money you wish to deposit in your account. when the money is transfered it goes into one of two categories in the banks computers, one being earned money, which is tax free or gift money which will be taxed. the money from your card will automatically go into the tax free money section.


That doesn't seem half bad for something that i just completely made up.

Now as for a law that makes taxation without representation illegal, i don't know of one. thats a good question AE. I'll look into that.

[thursday night]

I don't understand why we just don't let sixteen year olds vote. Seems a lot easier to me. :)

[timbaly]

oh................
Well i completely agree
I think anyone, regardless of their age should be able to vote once they have proved themselves to be critical and anylitical thinkers in school and at home. i know for a fact that I, a minor, would be a more responsible voter than many adults and I'm sure many people on this site feel the same way. But we can't have minors voting laws to ban schools, they have to be told to think of the public good before their own self interest when voting.

[thursday night]

Yes, very young people obviously have to mature more before being able to cast a ballot. However, many minors are far more intelligent than some adults. However you have to set a certain age for judging people on their merits, and given people pay taxes at sixteen they should be able to choose to whom those taxes go to.

Besides, a sixteen year old isn't radically different than an eighteen year old.

[antieverything]

Um..most of the people I know aren't critical, anylitical thinkers...adults or otherwise. Why don't you try talking to your average neighborhood 16 year old about issues of foreign policy or economics and then come back and say they should be able to vote.

[thursday night]

Perhaps, but they do pay income tax nevertheless. Paying taxes to a government you do not have a voice in choosing is undemocratic.

[timbaly]

Quote: from antieverything on 11:49 pm on Feb. 14, 2003
Um..most of the people I know aren't critical, anylitical thinkers...adults or otherwise. Why don't you try talking to your average neighborhood 16 year old about issues of foreign policy or economics and then come back and say they should be able to vote.


Well i think those things can change if there is a great reform in the education system. Maybe we can have a system that makes you think rather than memorize things for tests. in this system we would be able to produce more anylitical and critical thinker, or atleast i hope so.

As for todays standards, everyone over 18 can vote. Now I think the system should change to allow anyone under 18 who has the ability to think critically the right to vote. You're a minor, correct? Don't you think you're much more informed than the average adult, don't you think you would be a responsible voter. I think people like you (that is if you're a minor) deserve the right to vote no matter your age. As long as you have the mind there shouldn't be age discrimination. Now I do realize that most 16 year olds are indifferent to politics but so are 18 year olds and young adults in general. I still think they should have some impact on their government.

Oh and I couldn't find any laws that make taxation without representation illegal in the USA.

[antieverything]

Yeah, I'm 17. Get this: I don't think that I should be able to vote! Why? Because I wouldn't trust my fellow 17 year-olds with the ballot and the only way that we could decide which minors are smart enough is to institute a sort of testing system which could be easily exploited. Political parties could train massive amounts of young people on how to pass the test and it could be slanted towards certain groups of people.

When you are a minor, the parents make the decisions for you, in your name. OK? You don't get to decide if you want to mow the lawn...it isn't illegal for them to make you. They also get to decide your government until you are on your own. See?

(Edited by antieverything at 10:54 pm on Feb. 14, 2003)

[timbaly]

I don't think that the laws should be changed tomorrow to allow minors to vote. BUT, over time I think the mentality can and ought to be changed. This way people will be less occupied with learning about the life of *insert celebritie's name here* and more interested in world issues and other far more important matters. This way we'll have a more educated and critical population. Hopefully one day we will be able to trust young people with the ability to vote, but as for now i don't trust them either.

As for the thing about parents basically owning their children. I really hate those rules. I would love to change them as well. redstar2000 and i debated Lardlad95 about it in the theory. Much like your name says, I'm very anti-everything and just because it's established doesn't mean i like it, but you already knew that. In my opinion ust about everything needs reform, but how is a much harder question to answer.