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View Full Version : It’s official - capitalism doesn’t work - By Mick Brooks



bolshevik1917
11th February 2003, 22:20
In his book ‘the Wealth of Nations’ (regarded as the founding classic of bourgeois economics) Adam Smith gives us his alternative to planning the economy, as we socialists advocate. It is the ‘invisible hand’ of self-interest. We look to get our daily bread from the butcher, baker and brewer not by appealing to their altruism but by reminding them (if they need reminding) that it is in their interests to produce the goods and sell them to us.

Smith says, "by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention".

Got it? Self-interest means chasing the money. You can’t make money in the end, Adam Smith asserts, unless you produce something someone wants enough to pay for.

We have a very slight problem. Capitalism doesn’t present the fine picture of the harmonisation of interests Adam Smith paints, where all’s for the best in the best of all possible worlds. What’s wrong with the theory of the invisible hand?

In a recent article in the Guardian, Joseph Stiglitz quotes the research of a psychologist Kahneman who "shows not only that individuals sometimes act differently than standard economic theories predict, but that they do so regularly, systematically and in ways that can be understood and interpreted through alternative hypotheses, competing with those utilised by orthodox economists." Stiglitz goes on to draw the conclusion that last year’s Nobel prize winners "implied that markets were not, in general efficient…Adam Smith’s invisible hand - the idea that free markets lead to efficiency as if guided by unseen forces - is invisible, at least in part because it is not there." The article is entitled ‘There is no invisible hand’!

The problem, as Stiglitz sees it, is that people don’t always know what’s best for them. And the people who want to find out what they want so they can supply it are also not omniscient, as economists say in the trade (that means they don’t have all the information in the world before them). What sort of doctor would let you dose yourself up against an illness with pills that were yellow, just because that was your favourite colour?

But if you don’t always know what’s best, what chance has anyone else got of guessing? Adam Smith’s homely example of the village alewife and baker is profoundly misleading. They might know what people want, but that’s because they know everyone in the village, not because of ‘market signals’. What chance do modern multinationals have of reading our minds? Perhaps that’s why they spend so much money on advertising and such like in trying to tell us what to like.

If the invisible hand doesn’t work, that means socialist planning is on the agenda.

www.marxist.com

Tkinter1
11th February 2003, 22:35
WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Ymir
12th February 2003, 01:04
Good points.

Just Joe
12th February 2003, 01:08
its official- Capitalism nor Communsim work. for reference see 20th century history (where both ideologies belong!).

antieverything
12th February 2003, 03:24
When we look back on economic history, it is often appalling how wrong the economics of capitalism has been. The theory of homo economicus has only recently been left behind (although only by serious economists, not by the oil-corp think thanks). It wasn't until the 60s that economists started to realize that people didn't always compete with one another...

all that I can say is: I could have told you that before I knew anything about economics!

Guest1
12th February 2003, 06:45
Joe, not true. The ideal of a communist society is just that, an ideal. It is the greater goal in this battle. I see it as a future step, and who knows, maybe one of many. At this stage of human society, we have to get over the hurdle of current capitalism and change the way of thinking of 6 billion people before humanity can advance. This means slowly changing the idea that money means happiness, changing the idea of every man for himself.

Cancer takes time to recede, and the body takes time to recover from the cure. So it's gonna get alot worse as world conflicts arise in the last years of capitalism, and when we finally rise out of the ashes in a society of democratic socialism, we will quickly begin to rebuild, on our way towards communism. Even if it takes a hundred years.

synthesis
12th February 2003, 08:03
Capitalism doesn't work - what a load of shit!

Capitalism has proven itself to work in the time it has been in existence.

That isn't why socialists decry it so loudly. We decry it because it's exploitative, it's oppressive and it's just fucking inimical to human progress.

Bolshevik1917, the flaw with your arguments is that you analyze Adam Smith's capitalism - capitalism in its truest sense, which, in its present incarnation, does not exist except in the Libertarian party furthered today by those such as Friedman, Rand and others of their ilk.

You are analyzing capitalism in its truest form, which, much like its communist counterpart, has NEVER existed! Pure government non-intervention in the economy, Smithian capitalism, simply does not exist, much like the tribunal control over the means of production has never existed in Marxian communism.

What occurs today is government intervention - on the side of big business. Take the war on Iraq, for example, or the coup against Allende, or any other C.I.A. intervention, or the sanctions against Cuba - it's all the government siding with those who own the means of production.

bolshevik1917
12th February 2003, 08:22
The article was not written by me, Mick is a comrade of mine. I'll pass on your regards however.

Capitalism does not and will not work. It never has and its not now (today)

How can you define that something is 'working'?

Does it mean a fatcat shareholder getting a juicy cheque at the end of the day?

Or does it mean you produce mass surplusses of food and yet millions still die of starvation each year?

If something is 'working' would it cause wars?

The fact is, your systems doomed - and we're going to replace it sooner or later.

Tkinter1
12th February 2003, 18:04
Then what has worked bolshevik?

bolshevik1917
12th February 2003, 18:28
What kind of questions that?

Larissa
13th February 2003, 13:34
"Capitalism has proven itself to work in the time it has been in existence."

As far as I can recall, it only "worked" for the bourgeois and rich upper classes, but History doesn't have any PROOF of Capitalism working for the oppressed and exploited. While socialism works both ways :wink:

Red Liberation
13th February 2003, 21:08
ehh, Larrissa, under socialism there is no class

Tkinter1
13th February 2003, 21:21
"What kind of questions that?"

What SYSTEM has 'worked'?

Tkinter1
13th February 2003, 21:29
Larissa,

Then how come there is such a large middle class in the US, if Capitalism has only worked for the "borgeoise".

"History doesn't have any PROOF of Capitalism working for the oppressed and exploited."

My grandfather was a poor, son of a farmer from Albania(socialist at the time) before he immigrated to America. He got a low paying job at sears, worked his way up and is living comfortably now. It seems to have worked for him.

There are countless stories like these...

bolshevik1917
13th February 2003, 23:04
Countless stories like this, and billions of not so happy endings.

Albania was not socialist, it was a degenerated planned economy.

Communism has not worked yet as it has not been in practice worldwide. The bolsheviks only started to build socialism in 1917, but lost their way due to the rise of a beurocratic clique within the party, and the death of Lenin.

However the benefits of the planned economy were there for all to see, had they introduced democracy the results would have been even better.

Tkinter1
13th February 2003, 23:08
"...it was a degenerated planned economy."

The seems to be the result of Socialism.

bolshevik1917
14th February 2003, 00:01
In the one or two places it has been attempted - none of which were developing capitalism!

synthesis
14th February 2003, 00:51
By working, I mean not falling to pieces.

Capitalism works in much the same way that Mao's China, or Stalin's Russia "worked" - it stays in existence. It stays in existence by propping an elite few above the oppressed whole, just like Stalinism.

Of course, the PROC and the USSR aren't in existence any more - so they aren't "working" any longer. When the US falls, it won't "work" any longer. But it's working now, at the expense of the have nots, just like North Korea is working now - at the expense of the proletariat.

Tkinter1
14th February 2003, 03:48
There is a better chance for the "oppressed class"(which i'm not even sure exists to the extent that some of you portray it) to improve their life in modern Capitalism.

ID2002
14th February 2003, 05:31
...the US will fall...its only a matter of time.

Tkinter1
14th February 2003, 05:35
"...the US will fall...its only a matter of time."

and so the prophet spoke....

antieverything
16th February 2003, 05:30
...on an infinite time-scale, the mortality rate is 100%.