Marx is not the hero! - Fergus O'connor beat him to it.

[Invader Zim]

Many people on this site have a very misguided opinion of Marx. You all seam to think he was the Pioneer of Left wing thinking. NOT TRUE. The Chartists were, some may say it was the French in their Revolution, however that was instigated by the bourgeoisie.

The Chartists basically believed in the six point charter: -

Universal Suffrage
secret ballot's
Annual elections
No qualifications to be an MP
MP's to be paid
Equil sized constituancys

This was one if not the first set of guidelines from a working class perspective. I dont want to take away the glory from Marx but he was not the pioneer of Leftists, Chartists such as William Lovett, Thomas Attwood, Henry Vincent and Fergus O'connor were the first to really fight for political and economic freedom.

All Marx did was wait about 30 years and then polish the theorys a bit to get what you now call comunism.

"A working class movement to obtain representation in parliment and thus, ultimatly to produse economic and social reform." Taylor (a modern historian)

This is the basis of all leftist beliefs. Admittedly they have not got the bit about sharing wealth but that comes with political reform any way.

(Edited by AK47 at 8:37 pm on Feb. 11, 2003)

[antieverything]

It's pretty stupid to try and take away from Marx's incredible achievments as a sociologist and philosopher. Every idea has precursors...we just happen to pin the label of "father of _____" on certain people. True, Marx wasn't the first "communist" but he was the first person to write the Communist Manifesto. Have you even read it?

[Invader Zim]

Some of it, however i have read much of engles works. They are basically the same (so ive been told).

Define communist manifesto. If you mean the first left wing priniples to be written down and have huge social effects then he actually was not the first the charter was the first left wing manifesto. But if you meant the first person to start that particualar strand of left wing thinking then he was definatly up their.

[Moskitto]

the idea of socialism can be dated as far back as Plato.

John Ball was a socialist and fought for political, economic and gender equality, way back in the 14th century, long before Marx, or even the Chartists, he even recorded his works.

you cannot credit one person or even one group with it's invention.

[Mazdak]

And Mazdak fought the clergy and Persian nobles and established briefly, a communistic society in the Sassanid Persian Empire until he was betrayed by the emperor in the 5th century.

[RedRevolutionary87]

and david killed goliath.....

i dunno...i wanted to throw my name in there...

but yeah the idea of social equality is about as old as society itself. marx was just the first one to put together a plan on how this can be acheived, and why it was needed. he recorded the idea of the class strugle, and historical repition because of it.

[jon doe]

Universal Suffrage
secret ballot's
Annual elections
No qualifications to be an MP
MP's to be paid
Equil sized constituancys


sounds like the basics of liberalism to me

[RedRevolutionary87]

yeah where in the hell does it say abolision of private property in there?

[Invader Zim]

You have to understand that at the Time the upper class dominated socioty. The working class had no say in anything at all. Many chartists faught for the equality of wages and political representation, this would have been the begginings of leftwing thinking as it was a direct challange to the Upper classes.

In a book i read it's author believes that Marxs was greatly influenced by the chartists.

[RedRevolutionary87]

yes...he wrote about them....i believe the term is pety bourgoise socialists

[Just Joe]

the working class of today can thank ol' Marx for there fairly 'good' standard of living. theres a lot of pro-labour reforms that have been granted to workers out of fear of the spread of Marxism. i don't see how those demands you mentioned, AK, could be seen as left wing or pro labour.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Just Joe on 10:22 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
the working class of today can thank ol' Marx for there fairly 'good' standard of living. theres a lot of pro-labour reforms that have been granted to workers out of fear of the spread of Marxism. i don't see how those demands you mentioned, AK, could be seen as left wing or pro labour.

Think about it, 170 years ago, the people had no rights at all. What the upper classes said went. Then a group of radicals brought forth these demands from the lower classes. This may not be very left wing by todays standards but things were very different 170 years ago. The chartists vertually created the idea of left and right wing thinking.

[Som]

170 years ago?

So I take it this is about the 1830s?

By that time we had left and right quite clearly, those words come from the french revolution, by that time all sorts of left-wing ideologies had come to place. The idea of those concepts was also quite present in that period.

The chartists didn't create anything new, there havn't been all too many truly 'new' ideas in political thought since the greeks.

[Ian]

Chartists were more of a reformist movement although I do have a lot of respect for them.

You seem to make it sound as if this is an epiphany, it is no secret that Marxism is very much an amalgam of several other thoughtlines (German Idealism, British Political Economy and French Socialism primarily).

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Som on 11:25 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
170 years ago?

So I take it this is about the 1830s?

By that time we had left and right quite clearly, those words come from the french revolution, by that time all sorts of left-wing ideologies had come to place. The idea of those concepts was also quite present in that period.

The chartists didn't create anything new, there havn't been all too many truly 'new' ideas in political thought since the greeks.


Actually the terms right and left evolved in the 1830's, they were not used frequently until the 1900's so Som you were misinformed. The term right and left is a 20th century term.

The french revolution was not a workers revolution, so how possibly could the terms right and left be used. The french revolutionary's were middle class , not workers.

[Michael De Panama]

The right: Those who believe in the preservation of the status quo.

The left: Those who believe in the destruction of the status quo.

There has ALWAYS been a right and a left, AK47. Of course Marx wasn't the first leftist. Jesus Christ was a leftist. If you're trying to say that Marx wasn't the first communist, then yeah, you're right. He is, however, responsible for the perfection and popularization of the ideology.

You queer.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 3:39 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
The right: Those who believe in the preservation of the status quo.

The left: Those who believe in the destruction of the status quo.

There has ALWAYS been a right and a left, AK47. Of course Marx wasn't the first leftist. Jesus Christ was a leftist. If you're trying to say that Marx wasn't the first communist, then yeah, you're right. He is, however, responsible for the perfection and popularization of the ideology.

You queer.

Not true. You have right wingers in left wing countries, how are they left wing if they are trying to break the satus quo in that country??

Also by that theory Hitler was left wing he tried to break the liberal status quo in Germany.

Is hitler left wing???

[Som]

Actually the terms right and left evolved in the 1830's, they were not used frequently until the 1900's so Som you were misinformed. The term right and left is a 20th century term.

The french revolution was not a workers revolution, so how possibly could the terms right and left be used. The french revolutionary's were middle class , not workers.

No, they didn't evolve in the 1830s, they came directly out of the french revolution.

In the new legislatures of the revolution, the socialists, liberals, and so on sat on the side, while the monarchists, the elite, the conservatives sat on the right.
Thats where the terms come from, its quite simple.

The french revolutionaries were all from the lower class, it was the peasantry as a whole. The paris commune came from this, they raised the red flag as well.

Quite hard to blatantly ignore the paris commune, and continue to say that there was no virtually no left before the 1800s.

So overall back to that the chartists really created absolutly nothing new.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Som on 8:29 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
Actually the terms right and left evolved in the 1830's, they were not used frequently until the 1900's so Som you were misinformed. The term right and left is a 20th century term.

The french revolution was not a workers revolution, so how possibly could the terms right and left be used. The french revolutionary's were middle class , not workers.

No, they didn't evolve in the 1830s, they came directly out of the french revolution.

In the new legislatures of the revolution, the socialists, liberals, and so on sat on the side, while the monarchists, the elite, the conservatives sat on the right.
Thats where the terms come from, its quite simple.

The french revolutionaries were all from the lower class, it was the peasantry as a whole. The paris commune came from this, they raised the red flag as well.

Quite hard to blatantly ignore the paris commune, and continue to say that there was no virtually no left before the 1800s.

So overall back to that the chartists really created absolutly nothing new.



"The french revolutionaries were all from the lower class, it was the peasantry as a whole. The paris commune came from this, they raised the red flag as well. "

No the French revolution was organised, instagated, funded by the bourgoisie, any history web site could tell you that. Just because some of the workers were involved in the revolution does not make it a workers revolution.
I found this which adiquatly proves all i have said.

--------------------------------------------

"French Revolution
Section: Effects of the Revolution
Related: French History

The French Revolution, though it seemed a failure in 1799 and appeared nullified by 1815, had far-reaching results. In France the bourgeois and landowning classes emerged as the dominant power. Feudalism was dead; social order and contractual relations were consolidated by the Code Napoléon . The Revolution unified France and enhanced the power of the national state. The Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars tore down the ancient structure of Europe, hastened the advent of nationalism, and inaugurated the era of modern, total warfare.

Although some historians view the Reign of Terror as an ominous precursor of modern totalitarianism, others argue that this ignores the vital role the Revolution played in establishing the precedents of such democratic institutions as elections, representative government, and constitutions. The failed attempts of the urban lower middle classes to secure economic and political gains foreshadowed the class conflicts of the 19th cent. "

-------------------------------------

I have bolded the most relevant info. As you can see at the most all the French Revolution did was increase the democratic rights of the people.

Socialists were not any thing to do with the French until about 70 years after the Revolution, so saying that socialsts sat on the left is wrong.

"The paris commune came from this, they raised the red flag as well."

French Revolutionarys did not first raise the Red Flag (unless some very small faction may have done but the majority did not), that was the russian and chinese revolutionary flag. The French Revolutionary flag is below.

http://members.aol.com/agentmess/picts/franceo.jpg

I see no hammer and sicle, but what you can see it is the tricolor.

Just to put the icing on the cake a brief but consise discription of the Revolutionary Constitution

-------------------------------------------

"The Constitution 1791

The new constitution established 6 main points



Hereditary Constitutional Monarchy
A parliament consisting of a single elected chamber (the Legislative Assembly).
There was to be a separate executive (with no power to make laws)
All judges were to be elected
‘Suspensive’ veto for the King
The franchise was to be given to all that paid taxes equivalent to 3 days wages or more.
Self-Denying Ordinance refers to the decision that the current members of the National Assembly could not become members of the Legislative Assembly. The constitution was not popular to many in France die to the limited franchise. This meant that virtually only the propertied classes qualified for this. "

---------------------------------

As you can see the working classes were given very little except a little more civil freedom, and only a little as well. NOT A SOCIALIST SYSTEM

"In the new legislatures of the revolution, the socialists, liberals, and so on sat on the side, while the monarchists, the elite, the conservatives sat on the right.
Thats where the terms come from, its quite simple.

As to the left right terminology you were quite right and i appologise for questioning you. After some exhastive reserch i found that the terms right and left were as you said first used in 1789. However it describes the difference between liberalism and ultarianism, not socialism and capitalism.

[Som]

Just because some of the workers were involved in the revolution does not make it a workers revolution.

Reread my post, I didn't call it a workers revolution, I said it came from the lower class. It wasn't the burgouiouse that stormed the bastille and the like. While the emerging capitalist class took hold of it, it was still actions of the lower class taking power from the old ruling elite.

French Revolutionarys did not first raise the Red Flag (unless some very small faction may have done but the majority did not), that was the russian and chinese revolutionary flag. The French Revolutionary flag is below.

Again, you're misreading. The paris commune raised the red flag, not the french revolution as a whole.

I think you need to read up on the paris commune.

However it describes the difference between liberalism and ultarianism, not socialism and capitalism.

But among the left side were definitly socialists, whether it was the main difference or not.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from AGAY47 on 12:11 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
Not true. You have right wingers in left wing countries, how are they left wing if they are trying to break the satus quo in that country??

Also by that theory Hitler was left wing he tried to break the liberal status quo in Germany.

Is hitler left wing???
Hitler is certainly not a leftist. He was far to the right. He was something we would call a "reactionary", implying that he was trying to bring back to life the old status quo of Germany's despotic times. Mussolini was trying to bring back the status quo of the great Roman Empire. Stalinists, also, are nothing more than Soviet reactionaries.

Rightwingers in leftist countries are only trying to bring back the established status quo of the past. The status quo is not necessarily the values of the majority. You have to factor into the equation the enforcement of the values. A leftist is someone who wants to move forward. A rightwinger is someone who wants to either stay put or move backwards.

By the way, I replaced the letter "K" when quoting you with the word "GAY".