Greed, the motivator

[534634634265]

ideas i am still roughing out, feel free to contribute.


1.) greed motivated man to take from other man.

2.) greed motivated one man to lay claim on land, so that others couldn't have it.

3.) greed motivated man to take power over another.

4.) greed motivates those IN power to try and maintain it.

5.) the greed of those without causes them to seek to possess, either through equalization or usurping power themselves.

6.) all forms of government are forms of organized greed.

if you could ask questions, as opposed to making ridiculous statements that don't contribute i would appreciate it. posts i consider trollish or off-topic i will simply ignore.

[comrade stalin guevara]

Maybe greed could easily say money?

[534634634265]

Maybe greed could easily say money?
no, because greed preceded money. money is a tool of greed.

[comrade stalin guevara]

yes thats true
greed is the downfall of man
the creed of a gang i used to be in was, money/power/greed.

[534634634265]

greed is the downfall of man

wrong. it is simply one of the things that drives us as people. similar to the urge to create for the sake of creation, or fuck for the pleasure of fucking.

[comrade stalin guevara]

so what were greedy for the sake of being greedy?
comrade you are greedy you are not a communist why are you not restricted yet?

[Bud Struggle]

comrade you are greedy you are not a communist why are you not restricted yet?

Just because someone asks a question about something--it doesn't mean he is that thing he's asking about.

Greed doesn't mean you have to "take" something from some one else. It just means that you want something for yourself. I don't think more than yourself has to involved.

[534634634265]

so what we're greedy for the sake of being greedy?

yes


comrade you are greedy. you are not a communist. why are you not restricted yet?
i am no more greedy than you, i want only enough to be happy. what people consider enough is where the perception of greed comes in. you're right, i am NOT a communist. i am a socialist, and feeling more and more a nihilist. post on topic, or quit the thread.

EDIT: thanks Tomk, back to subject.

[Cult of Reason]

5.) the greed of those not without causes them to seek to possess, either through equalization or usurping power themselves.


I do not find this one perfectly clear. Would you rephrase?


6.) all forms of goverment are forms of organized greed.


What do you mean by government? A state, certainly, in its modern form is organised greed, but it is possible to have governments/coordinating bodies that are run by and for all.


What is your point, though? None of the things you have listed, apart from the above two (one of which I do not understand) are particularly desirable in my view. Furthermore, what do you mean by greed, (rational) self-interest or the acquisition of objects beyond what you need/consume? The first one always exists (with the exceptions, sometimes, of caring for offspring etc.)due to evolutionary imperitive, but the second one is much more controversial as a constant force. I would say that the latter disappears in any environment which is stable and abundant enough to provide enough for you that you have no motive to take more than you need at any given time. Such a situation would exist in a hypothetical Communist society, and has existed in certain hunter gatherer societies where the limitting factor on population has been disease or the environment rather than the lack of any particular resource.

[534634634265]

sorry about that, i edited it for clarity.
my point is that greed is an innate and will always exist because people only want what they consider necessary to be happy. but what they consider necessary, others consider flagrant and thus greedy. capitalism argues that individual greed is good for society and will drive it forward, while communism argues that greed is a curable ill, that can be eliminated through equalization. i posit that said equalization can never occur, as there will always be those who want more than what is considered sufficient for others, and since you're definition of enough isn't the same as someone elses. also, those hunter-gatherer societies still had elements in them which felt unhappy with what they had. this led to migration to richer hunting grounds, or development of a hierarchy.

[danyboy27]

perhaps greed is not the proble, perhaps the problem is power.

amassing money or good is a form of power demonstration.
what make people at their job walk on their best friend head to advance is power, the need for power.

the main problem is perhaps not currency need itself, but maybe the lack of a proper power distrubition inside the population.

when you lack of power you will turn into stuf that can give you that power; money, important job etc.

perhaps the main way to resolve the issue is to distribute power more equally; the power of having food on the table, the power of doing domething that mean something, etc.

[534634634265]

perhaps greed is not the proble, perhaps the problem is power.

i dont follow. greed preceded power, as originally all man was equally lacking. greed led to power, power over others, power over decision making, power over food distribution, etc.
self preservation, while rational, is still a form of greed.

[danyboy27]

i dont follow. greed preceded power, as originally all man was equally lacking. greed led to power, power over others, power over decision making, power over food distribution, etc.
self preservation, while rational, is still a form of greed.

damn look like the old discussion; what came first? the chicken or the egg?

to me , that the need of power that came before even greed.
indian of america where not greed, but they still fough each other to dominate each other, to keep the control, to keep the power od going whatever they wanted. of course, it weas at a smaller level.

money, the need of the curency, have indded increased with time, it beccause a tool of control and power, and that feeling most of human have to posses more wealth is linked to power and not necessarly to greed. perhaps greed is a symptom of intense powermongering.

but if course, that all tehory, i might be wrong!

[534634634265]

to me , that the need of power that came before even greed.
indian of america where not greed, but they still fough each other to dominate each other, to keep the control, to keep the power od going whatever they wanted. of course, it weas at a smaller level.

but greed led one indian to say "im the leader, you all do as i say" greed for control over others is still greed.

[danyboy27]

but greed led one indian to say "im the leader, you all do as i say" greed for control over others is still greed.

i am more thinking that its not greed, but the need of power.
the one that got that need of power inside, will become more verocious and ambitious, then, he will take over.

i think that your concept and mine is at the end quite similar, with 1 exception:

you think its greed, and i think its powermongering.

but at the end, both of out theories end the same.

[534634634265]

but isn't the urge to control another a form of greed? you don't actually physically need to control another, yet people lust after that power.

[danyboy27]

but isn't the urge to control another a form of greed? you don't actually physically need to control another, yet people lust after that power.

but you can seek power and share it after getting it.

so, the real question is, is greed a symptom of power, or is powermongering the symptom of greed?


man i love that dicsussion

[534634634265]

so, the real question is, is greed a symptom of power, or is powermongering the symptom of greed?

thats a good question. we both know which side we would fall on it though. hopefully others chime in on the thread.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

no, because greed preceded money. money is a tool of greed.

Money is a tool for exchange. What people do with it is another matter.

[Dean]

ideas i am still roughing out, feel free to contribute.


1.) greed motivated man to take from other man.

2.) greed motivated one man to lay claim on land, so that others couldn't have it.

3.) greed motivated man to take power over another.

4.) greed motivates those IN power to try and maintain it.

5.) the greed of those without causes them to seek to possess, either through equalization or usurping power themselves.

6.) all forms of government are forms of organized greed.

if you could ask questions, as opposed to making ridiculous statements that don't contribute i would appreciate it. posts i consider trollish or off-topic i will simply ignore.

You seem to be describing power, and at that all the ambitious examples of it. I can't see what you're trying to say here, greed is really not an inherent human thing, but a vague notion.

[534634634265]

you don't think self-interest is an innately human trait?

[revolution inaction]

you don't think self-interest is an innately human trait?

I think communisum is in my self interest :D

When people have done tests to show that humans are selfish and act only in there immediate interests the test subjects co-operated instead of betraying each other, only psychopaths and economists performed as expected :lol:
You should watch the trap, its on google video or bittorrent

[EvigLidelse]

I'll try to speak in terms of instincts to solve this.



1.) greed motivated man to take from other man.


No, that's part of our instincts. Survival of the fittest, we always wanna get better and show it to others. Boasting.



2.) greed motivated one man to lay claim on land, so that others couldn't have it.


Instincts again, haven't you ever seen dogs pissing on trees and barking away other dogs when they're in their territory?



3.) greed motivated man to take power over another.


Same as in #1, leadership is also a part of this. Learn some more on basic instincts, it's something that is in all of us. Read more on #4.



4.) greed motivates those IN power to try and maintain it.


Power, power, power.. Of course you want to maintain it, the most powerful in the flock is naturally the leader since no other dares challenging them. It's natural to try to take the leadership role, since if no one would try - then no one would become the leader. The flock would then be confused.



5.) the greed of those without causes them to seek to possess, either
through equalization or usurping power themselves.


(might have misinterpreted this one)
Of course, you don't want to be worse than others. You always want to be stronger to raise your chance of survival.



6.) all forms of government are forms of organized greed.


"Greed" and power is connected, yes, just as power and leadership is connected. Governments are groups of leader symbols, to become and maintain a role as a leader you need power. When you lust for more power, that's what we call "greed". Then why money? Money is power. It's all connected.

It's still a part of our instincts, though. Never forget that. Read more on "survival of the fittest" and instinctual leadership. Learn from the animals, we basically work in similar ways.

[Killfacer]

instinct? So basically your agreeing that its built into man to do the shit he said? way to go.

[danyboy27]

instinct? So basically your agreeing that its built into man to do the shit he said? way to go.

like an alien!

http://bp2.blogger.com/_qWovdGs59MY/SDBO1Ok08KI/AAAAAAAAAag/mu-RRRHa1q4/s320/alien+chest+burster.jpg

[EvigLidelse]

instinct? So basically your agreeing that its built into man to do the shit he said? way to go.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. The thing is that our free will is strong enough to stop our urges. Some people actually lives without sex, some people doesn't have children during their whole life etc..

[danyboy27]

gramm
Yes, that's what I'm saying. The thing is that our free will is strong enough to stop our urges. Some people actually lives without sex, some people doesn't have children during their whole life etc..

but this method of repressing its instinct lead to people to be dead unhappy.

ther is many country in the world that forced their population to repress their urges,its usually unproductive and lead to a severe rate of suicide.

and people wonder why saudi arabia is full of people preaching war and terrorism.

the taleban actually did this too when they where in power, repressing people of singing, dancing, playing card etc. its didnt lead to a prosper and happy society.

[EvigLidelse]

Greed will probably only make you feel good as long the empathy isn't stronger.

[Killfacer]

that alien scene is well funny. The white bloke is chokin, and his black mate goes "the food aint that bad man" and then his stomach explodes in blood. Ha.

[534634634265]

i think that human instinct is powerful, and is overcome-able if you address it as such, but that many simply live day to day and think very little of what drives them to do what they do. as long as this is the majorities way of life, i can't see humanities lot changing drastically.

[534634634265]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The thing is that our free will is strong enough to stop our urges. Some people actually lives without sex, some people doesn't have children during their whole life etc..
yeah, but they're repressed sexuality leads to a host of mental illnesses like pedophilia. repression of an instinct is not healthy, finding a healthy way of expressing it now...

[Die Neue Zeit]

you don't think self-interest is an innately human trait?

What radicalgraffiti said, actually. Since that term is too broad, I would like to use two other terms: survivalism and greed. One is innate, the other isn't, and is in fact psychopathy (yes, that's true). :)

[EvigLidelse]

yeah, but they're repressed sexuality leads to a host of mental illnesses like pedophilia. repression of an instinct is not healthy, finding a healthy way of expressing it now...

Ever heard about masturbation?

And repressing sexuality isn't unhealthy, and it certainly doesn't lead to pedophilia xD.